yann.1946 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > While I find the change unfortunate, I think a lot of people are missing why this was done: > > > > > > > > - make garden plots more valuable (yes, this encourages gem store sales of the item) > > > > - **ensure that people with multiple account don't gather off of 1 home instance** > > > > > > > > I know of people with 10+ account that would gather off of 1 home instance for a ton of profit per day (it was around 8 gold per account only from the 12 plots). Rest assured, with the current sale on PoF, I heard other players considering doing the same. > > > > > > > > Obviously the idea is for ascended food to retain some value and pre change, the market was already getting flooded with ascended food materials. > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > While I find the change unfortunate, I think a lot of people are missing why this was done: > > > > > > > > - make garden plots more valuable (yes, this encourages gem store sales of the item) > > > > - **ensure that people with multiple account don't gather off of 1 home instance** > > > > > > > > I know of people with 10+ account that would gather off of 1 home instance for a ton of profit per day (it was around 8 gold per account only from the 12 plots). Rest assured, with the current sale on PoF, I heard other players considering doing the same. > > > > > > > > Obviously the idea is for ascended food to retain some value and pre change, the market was already getting flooded with ascended food materials. > > > > > > youre 1. point is what i argue with. that practice has a name: p2w. > > > > > We'll it's slightly more pay2win as permenant gathering tools are. > > > > > youre 2. point dosnt punisch those with multyacounts. let me take youre example of 11 acounts, thats still 52 plants a day. they got way more expensiv so i doubt that they will make less gold. in the end its a reward for multyacounts and a punishment for more casual players. > > > > We'll that I'd not really true, because the loss per harvest becomes a lot bigger for multi accounts. > > yep some endless tools are preaty p2w. true. > > more infestment. not realy. learn cook and make sylfary quest 2-3h. and a bit gold. harfest 4 extra seeds under 10 min work. ok making compost cost raised aloth. its now around 15 silver for 1 plant. and not 15 silver for x plants. No you forgot the fact that if you multiacount you could go from a one time investment to a daily investment. And you forgot the price of the seeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mazreal Blackknight.1564" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was not an exploit it was something allowed for as long as Garden plots were first sold. My friends could come and harvest my two plots for extra primer flowers and that was fine. They could come and harvest for the food we used in our gameplay. How is this with ascended seeds any different than before? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is different, because it was never intended for ascended food to become super cheap to acquire. Therefore, it _was_ unintended for people to be able to circumvent the daily planting by harvesting from other people's garden plots (and several per day, too). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you couldnt farm several times. if you got a plant from spot 1 it was locked for youre acount that day. > > > > > > > > > > That's not the point. The point is, as long as you gather in a friend (or alt account) instance, your own herbs would still be there the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that ... so you could harvest them indefinitely without the need to replant. Invite your own guild to harvest daily, and you will generate a near unlimited supply from only one set of seeds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no i tested that. i planted herps, gatterd them at a friends home and than they where gone in my home. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's different. It's not about your home instance, it's about your friend's where you were gathering from. He could just not gather his seeds and let the entire guild farm it. As long as he didn't gather them himself, he would never have to replant ever. Infinite uses from one seed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. than that person couldnt harvest 1 plant ever. like i sad if he harfest them in a other garden his plants are gone. 2. the other seeds follow this rule. 3. how hard is it to make the plants disapear on reset when they got harvest by anone? > > > > > > 1. doesn't matter if he can harvest or not, if he lets 11 others harvest and gets one herb as compensation from each, you have 11x12 herbs from one set of seeds, and since the owner didn't harvest themselves, the herbs will be there the next day, so the other 11 players could come back and harvest again ... and again the day after that ... and again ... you get the picture > > > > > > 2. making the herbs disappear on reset, no matter what, has its own set of drawbacks. Say you plant ascended herbs but for some real life reason are prevented from even playing the game the next day. How would you like your precious herbs to disappear just because you couldn't play two days in a row? > > > > > > 3. removing ascended herb plants at reset still doesn't stop the people exploiting potentially dozends of ascended herbs from a single seed by selling access to their garden to other players who in turn can harvest without the need to invest in their own seeds > > > > > > > > > > yes i get the picture, but than can be blocked in other ways. the way they did it is clearly to force more people to buy gardens. > > > > > you can make the plants disapear at 2am ( no endless seed). you can make them flaged after they got harvested 1 time and diapear when you leave the home (max 6x harvesting). you can make the herbs acountbound. or a mix of that ideas. > > > > > like flag them when they get harvest 1x and than let them disapera at 2am and make herbs acountbound. > > > > > there are countless ways to deal with exploiding it without make it p2w. > > > > > > > > All of those "solutions" are way more convoluted and in some cases can be way more unfair. They went with the easiest implementation for maximum effect: only the person who planted the seed gets to gather them. Easy to understand, easy to balance around, easier to code than some of the ideas in this thread and harder to exploit. > > > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > While I find the change unfortunate, I think a lot of people are missing why this was done: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - make garden plots more valuable (yes, this encourages gem store sales of the item) > > > > > > > > - **ensure that people with multiple account don't gather off of 1 home instance** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of people with 10+ account that would gather off of 1 home instance for a ton of profit per day (it was around 8 gold per account only from the 12 plots). Rest assured, with the current sale on PoF, I heard other players considering doing the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the idea is for ascended food to retain some value and pre change, the market was already getting flooded with ascended food materials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > While I find the change unfortunate, I think a lot of people are missing why this was done: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - make garden plots more valuable (yes, this encourages gem store sales of the item) > > > > > > > > - **ensure that people with multiple account don't gather off of 1 home instance** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of people with 10+ account that would gather off of 1 home instance for a ton of profit per day (it was around 8 gold per account only from the 12 plots). Rest assured, with the current sale on PoF, I heard other players considering doing the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the idea is for ascended food to retain some value and pre change, the market was already getting flooded with ascended food materials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > youre 1. point is what i argue with. that practice has a name: p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's conveniance mostly. You are not locked out of acquiring the materials. On the contrary, all of them are on the TP. I don't agree with this implementation, but it's by far not as bad as people make it out to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > > youre 2. point dosnt punisch those with multyacounts. let me take youre example of 11 acounts, thats still 52 plants a day. they got way more expensiv so i doubt that they will make less gold. in the end its a reward for multyacounts and a punishment for more casual players. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except the effort is way higher maintaining more accounts while the return is way way waaaay lower. The return goes down from around 8 gold to around 2-3 gold with massiv added effort. > > > > > > > > > > it wasnt 8 gold. the price where around 30-40 silver for the good stuff. thats 4-5 gold with 3 gardens. > > > > > now the price is at 1 gold 30- 1 gold 40. thats 5-6 gold for 1 garden. so in the end only one who profit are those with multiacounts. and to farm seeds isnt hard work if you know how to. i managed to get 100 seeds in under 4h > > > > > > > > You seem to still not understand that farming seeds is a non scalable process... > > > > > > > > Old system: 10 accounts = free profit for a couple of minutes gathering. > > > > > > > > New system (using your timeframe): 10 accounts = 40 hours of investment. > > > > > > 40h rofl. i farm you 4 seeds in under 10 min if i have bad luck. and in 1 min if im lucky. > > > > ..... you do understand the concept that more work per account versus not more work per account is a scalability difference right? > > > > It does not matter how long it takes. In one situation the effort is scalable without issue since no extra work is required, in the other, you have multiplicative workload. > > > > How does the result change with 20 accounts? What about 50? What about 100? > > no i get you. its more work. but that more work is ignoreable. those who get punished by this patch are not the multyacount users, they just need to invest a few more min work. and have now a bigger profit than in the past. those who got punished are the casuals and the teamplayers. > > lets use 100 acounts. pepperseeds. 4 seeds for average 5 min farm time. that would be 8h and 20 min. you get 400 herbs for that. which you can sell in the moment for 1,27 gold. lets say you pay 15 silver for the compost than you have in that time a provit, after fees, of 371gold and 80 silver. Not factoring for the things you missed (cause I really can't be bothered to do even more nonsensical math). At 371 gold for close to 9 hours of monotonous gameplay, that's slightly above some of the top tier farms (with around 40g per hour, very high farms are around 30g). Now how about you do the math for those 100 accounts without them having to go through all the effort. What was it you said, it was around 40-50 silver per plant? Let's go with that number. At 100 accounts, 4 gathering simultanously per home instance in 1-2 minutes (you didn't factor in gathering and crafting time in you farming but w/e, let's let that slide). What does that come out as? 100-200 minutes (1.5-3.4 hours) for a pure profit of 4.8-6 gold for a total of 480-600 gold. How is this even remotely comparable? That's without correcting for the things you ommited. That's literally 27-62% more gold in less than 1/2 or even 1/3 the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nol Fran Shee.1285 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 That 9 level deep quote tho. I love the box shading! Fixing the multi-harvest on re-entering the instance? Yes, that was a good fix - no other plant gets a re-harvest. Removing the ability of letting others harvest. Bad idea. It wasn't a bug fix, it was a feature change. Calling it a bug fix is disingenuous. Call it what is was, a nerf. If randos with 10+ free to play accounts harvesting nodes to crash the market is a problem, then fix the randos with 10+ accounts, don't punish the rest of use because you can't solve the actual problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 > @"Nol Fran Shee.1285" said: > That 9 level deep quote tho. I love the box shading! > > Fixing the multi-harvest on re-entering the instance? Yes, that was a good fix - no other plant gets a re-harvest. > Removing the ability of letting others harvest. Bad idea. It wasn't a bug fix, it was a feature change. Calling it a bug fix is disingenuous. Call it what is was, a nerf. > > If randos with 10+ free to play accounts harvesting nodes to crash the market is a problem, then fix the randos with 10+ accounts, don't punish the rest of use because you can't solve the actual problem. Well I can harvest my onion garden with as many free accounts I can create a day mate so what is this about no other plants get reharvested? Not that I do or could do much with those onions tho but it is possible to do, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 > @"iceman.6145" said: > I disagree with this change as well. The price of these herbs are going to go through the roof overnight. Sounds like a chance to make some money to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acheron.4731 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 WvW is not working as intended. Can we fix that now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaFishBob.6518 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Think of the ascended herb nodes as the enchanted treasure chest. Now there's a precedent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMagicks.3190 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Alright to chime in a bit here. Warning: Bit of text coming up. (Disclaimer: By a bit, I mean can be a lot. Subjectively speaking only) Let's begin with the basics : You do have 4 spots you can have access to just from doing the Chef collection in question to grow crops in. For yourself. The fact is from my view the Ascended food is very smartly designed. It does not make the Old food totally obsolete, and at the same time adds a way to use the "not so useful" food in form of needing to salvage them to use in crafting the Seeds. Now - As I see it (And this is just me) The Ascended food was meant to be a kind of "Use sparingly" solution, unless you have a big budget. For the people whom have Raid or WvW Raid chefs - You can still get the 4 spots in your home instance for free just from doing the collection, and thus you aren't totally out of luck growing your own Cultivated herbs to send over to your chef. So you CAN Still work together quite well and help pitch in! Simply this way - It is not just one person does it and everyone robs their house, more so multiple people do it (and thus do some minor new content, always nice, eh?) and can mail their Chef the herbs they grow! If we factor in say - a World vs World guild has 50 players who are online semi-daily, that is already at the bare minimum 50 x 4 = 200 crops they can grow in a day and send to their chef. Or ,to avoid Mail spam, dump them into the guild bank where the Chef can grab them out as people chuck them in! Of course - If even a fracture of said folks have Additional plots ,the number of Cultivated herbs grown per day increases vastly. You can even sort out who grows what and pool seeds - So this to me is GREATLY more teamwork than one person has a home instance and they go in and out and in and out and let people come in and scoop the plants up. You can organize easily all this if you wish, and at the same time you get to run about a bit in the PvE overworld (Does a bit of good to get a chance of scenery for a brief period - Helps you appreciate bashing in heads in WvW more. Wet your appetite so to say a bit. And I assume World vs World raids aren't going on all day for such groups, so you got spare time to kill? Might as well deal with this lil task.) And cooking is notoriously easy to level up and very affordable. And overall to note: You can thus have Backup Chefs who can pitch in if the main Chef say gets sick and cant log in. For stable Raid Groups, the number is lower, but if you have 10 x people, you still can grow 40 plants a day. Seeing as (Assuming a bit here) most days of the week you would not be Raiding along, you have ample time to grow herbs using the free plot and pool them for the next splash in the raid you seek to conquer! Or invest some of your cash the group may earn to finance purchasing any surplus herbs needed (They do rise in value time to time too, so you can have this pay out if you notice you got a surplus and sell out. Add to the "Raid fun time vacation" collection box of funds!) Simply get your cooking to level 450, and the collection is opened. In The Grove part of it you earn the free home instance plot as a reward for completing it, as well as learn to and craft the permanent Composter to salvage various foods to begin crafting your own seeds. (Warning - Be careful with its big Salvage settings. It will salvage stuff like Sweet and Sour butternut squash soup too if you set it to do so due to its food like any other) The home instance has also had the Enchanted Chess before where it could only be opened by the person whom did the collection and got it in there. How does this have something to do with Cultivated Crops? Well - It is a similar logic. Cultivated Crops (And Ascended food by proxy)were meant as I see it as a very clever Economic engine of its own. The law of Supply and Demand. There will always be demand for them, and now this way for sure (as I am fairly sure it was never intended to let anyone else but the owner harvest the crops a day) and thus its a profitable win win for everyone! The people who acquire the raw seeds, sell them earn cash. The people who grow them will always be able to earn income from their base investment of doing the collection and continued planting of seeds. People who cook the foods not totally made obsolete by making Ascended food non over abundant to acquire can keep their cash flow going. Cooking mats do not lose value and instead see steady usage and upkeep. All in all - It is a win win scenario for everyone, from the more poorer players who gather materials on their travels, to the Cooks who make food for profit ,to the people who grow the crop and sell on the market! So I think this is a job well done! Balance is kept, and it adds a new dynamic to the economy, and keeps it's wheels spinning. Wall-o-text has ended. Thank's for reading. And anyone who did not, well, I tried at least to chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Settie.9815 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 > @"Roamer.3259" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > > > @"daggerdale.9043" said: > > > > > > @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > > > > > > @"Mazreal Blackknight.1564" said: > > > > > > > This was not an exploit it was something allowed for as long as Garden plots were first sold. My friends could come and harvest my two plots for extra primer flowers and that was fine. They could come and harvest for the food we used in our gameplay. How is this with ascended seeds any different than before? > > > > > > > > > > > > It is different, because it was never intended for ascended food to become super cheap to acquire. Therefore, it _was_ unintended for people to be able to circumvent the daily planting by harvesting from other people's garden plots (and several per day, too). > > > > > > > > > > you couldnt farm several times. if you got a plant from spot 1 it was locked for youre acount that day. > > > > That's not the point. The point is, as long as you gather in a friend (or alt account) instance, your own herbs would still be there the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that ... so you could harvest them indefinitely without the need to replant. Invite your own guild to harvest daily, and you will generate a near unlimited supply from only one set of seeds. > > > > > > no i tested that. i planted herps, gatterd them at a friends home and than they where gone in my home. > > > > That's different. It's not about your home instance, it's about your friend's where you were gathering from. He could just not gather his seeds and let the entire guild farm it. As long as he didn't gather them himself, he would never have to replant ever. Infinite uses from one seed. > > They could have just made it that once the nodes are farmed by anyone during the first entering, then they are unfarmable after exiting, resulting in the home owner needing to farm on their first entry or miss out for the day. Agreed! Once touched, make it un-farmable, kinda deal. I haven't been playing too much the last few weeks, but the few times I did, I genuinely thought I had to farm when my friends did. I didn't realize the exploit was as bad as people say, with people bringing in others to farm all day for trades. That IS crazy. I just had guild friends farm once (so 5x the materials gathered that went straight into guild food) a day with me, then I'd go get more seeds and repeat. I only got to do this 2 or 3 times though. Guess I'm a more honest gamer than some, and not so exploit-crazy. The thing is, and I wanted to reply to another person's post from page 1 of this thread, was that....food is one time use only. Other ascended items that can be created last as long as you want them to, and they are just as time-gated as food is. It's not like you make medium boots and they wear out after a month. (THAT WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE NO NASTY IDEAS ANET!) The ascended food sits out for 5 minutes, is account bound, and only lasts an hour. I don't think the nerf had to be as severe as they made it. I still think that ascended food should have been a 2 hour long duration, and the nerf of other foods to 30 min was pretty lame. I only use food when I'm raiding, sometimes when I WvW. The rest of the time, I don't bother. It's just a shame. OR how cool would it be to make ascended food with a couple of uses in it? So you grab it, click it, and can use it 4 more times. I dunno...the ascended food system wasn't as good as I hoped. The extra buffs are nice, but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 > @"DaFishBob.6518" said: > Think of the ascended herb nodes as the enchanted treasure chest. Now there's a precedent! Well if thats the case they should let us loot 4-12 a day depending on how many plots we have, without having to grow anything same as the treasure chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metasynaptic.1093 Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 As a raid leader, I've told my team to sort their own food out for raids. I'll use my ascended food for Dhuum CMs or something, but otherwise, not worth the time vs benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty.6219 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I hate this change with a burning passion. Guild wars 2 is about sharing with your community, about not having to compete for nodes and resources. I find this change terrible and it goes against the very spirit of what Guild Wars 2 is and why we play/enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah.2967 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Changing the game's philosophy from a community one to a selfish mindset. One patch at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metasynaptic.1093 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 My raid team has stopped using them. I'm sure they're nice for wvw I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddicus.6128 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 The crafting to 500 process was fun, but the actual materials are a waste of time. This is just one example. However, I did get an extra garden plot to use with the other two I had. That was valuable, even if the ascended crafting wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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