UK Officials Say Loot Boxes Are Gambling

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > @"SinisterSlay.6973" said:

> > Threads like this are funny when you read the one about getting the Starborn outfit and people spending $60+ in keys just to get it. More than the cost of the game and 2 expansions for a single outfit. Your better off actually gambling at a casino, at least you might win something worth real money.

> > As for what this means for gw2? It would probably kill the game. As I said, they get the cost of 2 expansions per fancy skin they add. Losing lootboxes would kill them, and 99% of all games on the itunes and play store.

>

> It will only kill the game is Anet doesn't adapt and go into a new monetization structure seeing how the global trend is starting to become antilootbox. I think sub models will start getting adopted once enough of the market is gated out of lootboxes. Remember, NCsoft and Anet are the one who block lootboxes in Belguim, not because they are illegal, but they would have to rerate the game to adults only and pay a fee.

> Personally I would love to hear ideas to allow players in these regions to support the game monetarily while not being locked out of the skins that come from the boxes because these will certainly now be blocked by publishers to avoid an adults only rating.

 

Or you know, governments and people start being realistic and admitting that it's time for the populace to start being accountable for themselves and not regulating every little thing that might "harm" people or cause them to lose self-control(notice the term there: self-control). I'm pretty sure the definition of gambling is not going to change in the U.S. anytime soon, and until it does loot boxes don't qualify...and I noticed the exact same message in the report from the U.K.(see the video on YouTube from YongYea)...so unless the U.K. parliament decides to redefine gambling then loot boxes won't be able to be regulated there either(which based on how well they govern their own country I'm sure they'll do that, since it's easier than figuring out how to leave the EU).

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

> >

> > 1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.

> > 2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.

> > 3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

> >

> > Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

> >

> > There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.

> > And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

> >

> > I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.

> > Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..

> > It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

> >

> > Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

>

> Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

>

> First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

>

> Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

 

Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

 

I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.

It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.

Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

 

The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

 

If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

[Tukaram.8256]

 

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> ... and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

 

Excuse my ignorance... but what/how do tomes help get keys (I have a huge stack of useless tomes) :)

 

[castlemanic.3198]

Lootboxes are predatory by their very nature. Something should be done about them, including BLC. All the 'they're not as bad as others' and 'personal responsibility' things are simply a distraction from the fact that they are predatory.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> >

> > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

>

> I would rather see the game get a 16+ rating. That is the age at which Belgium, and some other EU countries, allow consumption of alcohol and tobacco. Its the legal driving age here in the US (not sure about elsewhere). If someone can drink, smoke, marry, operate one of the deadliest machines in human history, etc then they should be expected to make personal choices and be accountable for them.

 

To be a bit more precise, most of the EU countries and US states have 18 as a minimum legal age for purchasing tobacco, driving, and marriage. Underage marriage (in some circumstances) and driving are allowed with parental permission or supervision, respectively. Drinking is a bit different since 21 is the minimum legal age for alcohol purchase in the USA (45 states allow underage alcohol consumption under specific circumstances). So, if we follow your logic, 18+ might be a bit more appropriate rating.

 

I want you to keep in mind, though, that one of the major symptoms of addictions is a loss of ability to control one's behaviour fully. An addict is not quite capable of making personal choices. It does not matter what type of addiction this person has. Compulsive gamblers have no more control over their life choices than heroin addicts. Moreover, they feel guilt, remorse, sadness, anger toward themselves due to their behaviour. However, without help, most of them are incapable of changing their lives and attitudes. Addiction is not a bad personal choice, it is a disease. Unfortunately, underdeveloped brains are more susceptible to forming addictions.

 

To be honest, I think that gambling and lootboxes should not be allowed in video games at all regardless the age. Games already have enough in them to promote addictive behaviours. With this said, I am not explicitly against gambling. People should be able to enjoy a game of chance if it is their cup of tea. However, those people should be adults fully equipped to make decisions and have all the necessary information to make those decisions fully conscious with a solid understanding of consequences. Only in this case, we can expect them to be accountable.

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Me personally, I can't wait from some legislation to finally happen, mostly for special age groups which need protection (minors, teens). The gaming industry as a whole has failed terribly at selfregulating for way to many years.

 

Same here. I would love to see the gaming industry being strongly regulated after their failure in regulating itself.

 

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> The report came out yesterday it is not old new. Uk citizens play this game. This game has lootboxes defined in this report.

 

Keep in mind that, as mentioned by a reddit mod, some people like to spam "report" on anything that could be interpreted as criticism on ArenaNet and GW2, even when it's completely constructive feedback. So don't worry about people reporting this topic.

 

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

> > >

> > > 1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.

> > > 2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.

> > > 3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

> > >

> > > Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

> > >

> > > There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.

> > > And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

> > >

> > > I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.

> > > Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..

> > > It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

> > >

> > > Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

> >

> > Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

> >

> > First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

> >

> > Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

>

> Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

>

> I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.

> It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.

> Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

>

> The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

> At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

>

> If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

 

Unfortunately, your argument is not supported even by anecdotal data:

- gem exchange rates go significantly up every time BLC keys are on sale;

- gem exchange rates go up when BLC have items desired by a lot of players even if the keys are not on sale;

- price of chests on TP goes up every time their contents rotate, moreover the price hike is proportionate to the desirability of a special cosmetic item included in any given rotation;

- there are threads on both Reddit and official forums discussing the Starbound Outfit drop rates -> people do like it and want it.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Doctor.5068" said:

> A possible loophole anet can use (even in countries that already banned them) would be to remove the keys from the store and replace it with the statuettes. BUT when you buy a statuette you get 1 free unlocked Black lion chest with your statuette purchase. You no longer are selling a gambling item, but a guaranteed currency statuette, with a bonus mystery chest with it.

Ah yes that method. Very widespread use today for many things, nothing strange. For example:

 

Selling cocaine for $100 = very illegal

Selling a gummybear for $100 and include free cocaine = perfectly legal, its just a surprise high

 

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Calistin.6210" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"Ryukai.6524" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.

> > >

> > > Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!

> >

> > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw.

>

> You are not confined to anything but like in most things there is a time and place for each, this kind of thing doesn't belong in our videos games. Frankly if a game shut down because they cannot survive without gambling or surprise mechanic lootboxes then they don't deserve to survive anyways.

>

> The "companies need lootboxes to thrive" excuse has always been a strawmen and that hasn't changed, about the only thing that has changed is the ad nauseam poor games that rely and concentrate on lootboxes and fleecing the masses that buy them instead of concentrating on making good games. Nor is it about regulating life or taking people freedoms away.

>

> If someone wants gamble then go do so at the appropriate place just like when I want to have a drink I do so at home or a place with a liquor license and not at a park or while driving my car.

>

> At least that's what I think.

>

> Only thing I can say is kudos to Belgium for starting the puck rolling, good job on the UK on keeping it going and hopefully more countries will follow suit.

>

>

TBH the way I see it, both you and @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" have valid points.

As I said earlier, having a BIG Brother governance to this will more than likely have a negative impact on the game and the gaming publishers.

All parties need to play their part in this issue.. gambling addiction and it's associated effects are real and not something that has just materialised, it is a growing trend especially amongst younger generations so it is absolutely imperative the gaming companies start acting more responsibly, but at the same time parents and players (of all ages) must do the same.

Personally I don't want to see BLC taken from the game, it's actually something I enjoy and I would hazard a guess many players in Belgium probably feel the same and would like the opportunity to open some up. Then again I don't buy into them with the notion " I am going to get a specific item from them ", just " I might get something nice if RNGeesus thinks I've been good today" - but part of that is bourne out of maturity and experience, something many younger players are yet to gain, so some better form of system could and should be looked into rather than publishers flicking the kill switch on any country that decides to take action.

Maybe if more countries decide to take genuine action around this subject, some better system may come into effect that works for all parties.. just my 2 cents.

 

[PyrateSilly.4710]

>A kid addicted to physical card packs might spend their lunch money on them.

Ummm I have seen adults order and buy whole boxes, yes that is plural, of MtG cards when the new expansions come out just in hopes that they get the cards they are looking for. So 'lunch money' is not exactly true. Couple hundred dollars at a time ... yes and more than once.

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Doctor.5068" said:

> A possible loophole anet can use (even in countries that already banned them) would be to remove the keys from the store and replace it with the statuettes. BUT when you buy a statuette you get 1 free unlocked Black lion chest with your statuette purchase. You no longer are selling a gambling item, but a guaranteed currency statuette, with a bonus mystery chest with it.

 

Maybe? That might fool a politician. It sounds like run-of-the-mill lawyer-speak. A psychologist would (correctly) conclude that your suggestion would be an attempt to circumvent the law -- which is of course what loopholes do.

 

If the "bonus mystery chest" contains a chance to get a desirable item, and/or a chance to get more statuettes, then that desirable item can potentially be had cheaper. If so, the gambling mindset _will_ engage. People will act as if they believe that they'll be the lucky one. When they're not, gambler's fallacy and sunk-cost fallacy take over, and the de facto situation is exactly what it is now. If the intent of the law is to remove the temptation to gamble, then the law would have to be worded to prevent this suggestion from working. Not that it necessarily would be so worded.

[Ryukai.6524]

> @"Tukaram.8256" said:

>

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > ... and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

>

> Excuse my ignorance... but what/how do tomes help get keys (I have a huge stack of useless tomes) :)

>

 

The lvl 10 personal story has a guaranteed key at the end for completing it. But you can only get it **once a week**, so you make a toon, use a few tomes to quick boost to lvl 10, do the story, grab the key, job done.

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> Maybe? That might fool a politician. It sounds like run-of-the-mill lawyer-speak. A psychologist would (correctly) conclude that your suggestion would be an attempt to circumvent the law -- which is of course what loopholes do.

 

I do wonder, though.

 

I see a lot of people talking about the Black Lion Chests.

 

What about the Mount Adoption License? You're paying money in order to get a random result. Would this also fall within the boundaries of the legal defintion of a loot box?

 

Taking one step further, what about the [Knife Tail Gang Hunting Bond](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knife_Tail_Gang_Hunting_Bond)? You are paying for a buff that makes a single Skritt appear, who will then drop an [item](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recovered_Black_Lion_Goods) that will give you a random reward from the Black Lion collections. It feels exactly like the kind of loop hole one would use to try to circunvent rules about loot boxes.

 

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > Maybe? That might fool a politician. It sounds like run-of-the-mill lawyer-speak. A psychologist would (correctly) conclude that your suggestion would be an attempt to circumvent the law -- which is of course what loopholes do.

>

> I do wonder, though.

>

> I see a lot of people talking about the Black Lion Chests.

>

> What about the Mount Adoption License? You're paying money in order to get a random result. Would this also fall within the boundaries of the legal defintion of a loot box?

>

> Taking one step further, what about the [Knife Tail Gang Hunting Bond](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knife_Tail_Gang_Hunting_Bond)? You are paying for a buff that makes a single Skritt appear, who will then drop an [item](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recovered_Black_Lion_Goods) that will give you a random reward from the Black Lion collections. It feels exactly like the kind of loop hole one would use to try to circunvent rules about loot boxes.

>

 

If they were to comply (which they won't) with a possible regulation, they would include all these themselves. Or remove them like in previous cases (Belgium). They wouldn't risk legal action.

 

I think both blc and mountskins are inaccessible in Belgium. Not sure about the Skritt.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Tukaram.8256" said:

>

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > ... and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

>

> Excuse my ignorance... but what/how do tomes help get keys (I have a huge stack of useless tomes) :)

>

 

Tomes can quick level you to 60 to run through the personal story and get the additional 2 keys given by a lvl 40 mission and the level 60 battle at claw island mission.

Unlike the level 10 mission the level 40 and 60 missions guarantee a key every time so they can be farmed if you're dedicated enough.

 

Personally I prefer to level a keyfarmer to 60 and grab 3 keys per week when I do keyfarms (I don't currently bother atm due to lack of additional character slot.)

Most people just do the weekly level 10 mission and grab 1 key per week though, but if they're sitting on spare tomes or birthday scrolls they may as well go after the 3.

Better to have 9 keys in 3 weeks than just 3 right :)

 

The process is actually a lot faster than some may think too.

Mounts make getting around a lot faster so you can pretty much go from mission to mission to mission.

Unbound equipment can be transferred from keyfarmer to keyfarmer each week if you run the same class (I personally prefer Human Ranger with 25% move speed signet)

When build templates come into the game it maybe possible to store a keyfarm build and quick load it on your keyfarmer every week too saving even more time.

Vigil path is the fastest imo and also the easiest to access due to it's base location, likewise study the hyleck as their missions take place south of LA which is far closer than the others ergo quicker to complete.

Since you also get a free order weapon while running these missions doing a lvl 60 keyfarm is also a good way to unlock the order weapon skins if you don't have them.

 

I havent done a good keyfarm in a while though but I do know it doesn't take that long to rush through the personal story, shouldn't take more than an hour or two once you have a good sense for it and know the quickest way to get from point A to B etc.

[MokahTGS.7850]

As much as ANet will try to hide the fact that they have loot boxes in game, the fact is the BLC allow the player to gamble for in game items. It does not matter that you can see what you have the potential to win with the preview button. There is still chance involved and you still gamble. Even if you get a statue all that does is give you a reward that takes a long time to get. Time that people circumvent by more gambling. Didn't get what you want, here's a statue. Get enough statues and you can get what you want...with enough gambling.

 

They just don't want to admit that their business is based on gambling mechanics marketed to minors.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

> > > >

> > > > 1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.

> > > > 2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.

> > > > 3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

> > > >

> > > > Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

> > > >

> > > > There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.

> > > > And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

> > > >

> > > > I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.

> > > > Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..

> > > > It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

> > > >

> > > > Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

> > >

> > > Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

> > >

> > > First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

> > >

> > > Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

> >

> > Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

> >

> > I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.

> > It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.

> > Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

> >

> > The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

> > At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

> >

> > If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

>

> Unfortunately, your argument is not supported even by anecdotal data:

> - gem exchange rates go significantly up every time BLC keys are on sale;

> - gem exchange rates go up when BLC have items desired by a lot of players even if the keys are not on sale;

> - price of chests on TP goes up every time their contents rotate, moreover the price hike is proportionate to the desirability of a special cosmetic item included in any given rotation;

> - there are threads on both Reddit and official forums discussing the Starbound Outfit drop rates -> people do like it and want it.

 

A run of bad luck isn't enough to condemn the system though.

I've gone after items in the chests many times and failed to get them while other times i've gotten them on my first key..

I've seen countless players getting premium mount skins and saying in the chat they got it on their first few keys..

Drop rates for these uncommon items are very fair for the most part and like I said, keys are farmable in game through the personal story if you're dedicated enough and as you also said gold to gem conversion is another option if you really want keys.

You can also buy golden keys with statuettes after you save up enough which significantly improves your chances of getting an outfit.

 

You never have to spend money on Gw2 aside from when new expansion content comes out.. even the living world can be bought with in game gold.

Sorry but I don't see how people can feel cheated by a RNG system like this when they don't have to pay anything into it, many choose to because it's faster and while I can understand the convinience it's still their choice to do so as it was mine many times in the past.

 

The best alternative would be to allow these items to be tradable on the gem store, I'd have been more than happy to put my outfit up for sale considering I don't like it and for some reason a lot of other people really want it.

[Dante.1508]

Just because you can see whats potentially in the package before you get it doesn't make it not Gambling... I hope these things are banned world wide.. And yes i use them but if they went the way of the dinosaur i'd be happy.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.

> > > > > > > > > Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Regulation =/= Ban

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)

> > > > >

> > > > > You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.

> > > >

> > > > I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.

> > > > If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.

> > >

> > > I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)

> > > Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place.

> > >

> > > Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.

> >

> > Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.

>

> Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?

 

They appear to be very low chance these days.. They are in map completions in orr and from what i've seen no where else.. I just leveled a character to 80 and got three the entire process.

They used to be everywhere now its all transmutation items.

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

>

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

>

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

>

> I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

 

Very interesting and explains much about some of the responses here.. I do like these few that try to report a thread they don't agree with.. Laughable. Funnily here in Australia the actual Guildwars 2 retail box had gambling written on it.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

>

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

>

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

>

> I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

 

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

 

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

[Tukaram.8256]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> >

> > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

>

> Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

>

> 25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

 

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> >

> > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

>

> Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

>

> 25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

 

I believe that if you want to frame something in terms of personal responsibility you must make sure that people in question are capable of taking that responsibility. Current research does not support an idea that people with their frontal lobes still in development can make all their decisions responsibly, i.e. decision-makers understand the consequences and are willing to deal with them. With this in mind, I think that it might be a good idea to raise the minimum legal age for gambling, smoking, drinking, marriage, and unsupervised driving. It also might be a great idea to forbid joining the military to anyone under age of 30.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > > I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.

> > > > > 2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.

> > > > > 3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.

> > > > > And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.

> > > > > Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..

> > > > > It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

> > > >

> > > > Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

> > > >

> > > > First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

> > > >

> > > > Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

> > >

> > > Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

> > >

> > > I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.

> > > It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.

> > > Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

> > >

> > > The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.

> > > At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

> > >

> > > If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

> >

> > Unfortunately, your argument is not supported even by anecdotal data:

> > - gem exchange rates go significantly up every time BLC keys are on sale;

> > - gem exchange rates go up when BLC have items desired by a lot of players even if the keys are not on sale;

> > - price of chests on TP goes up every time their contents rotate, moreover the price hike is proportionate to the desirability of a special cosmetic item included in any given rotation;

> > - there are threads on both Reddit and official forums discussing the Starbound Outfit drop rates -> people do like it and want it.

>

> A run of bad luck isn't enough to condemn the system though.

> I've gone after items in the chests many times and failed to get them while other times i've gotten them on my first key..

> I've seen countless players getting premium mount skins and saying in the chat they got it on their first few keys..

> Drop rates for these uncommon items are very fair for the most part and like I said, keys are farmable in game through the personal story if you're dedicated enough and as you also said gold to gem conversion is another option if you really want keys.

> You can also buy golden keys with statuettes after you save up enough which significantly improves your chances of getting an outfit.

>

> You never have to spend money on Gw2 aside from when new expansion content comes out.. even the living world can be bought with in game gold.

> Sorry but I don't see how people can feel cheated by a RNG system like this when they don't have to pay anything into it, many choose to because it's faster and while I can understand the convinience it's still their choice to do so as it was mine many times in the past.

>

> The best alternative would be to allow these items to be tradable on the gem store, I'd have been more than happy to put my outfit up for sale considering I don't like it and for some reason a lot of other people really want it.

 

I am sorry, I am a bit lost here. What are you arguing? Do you agree that BLC's are essentially gambling (a game of chance for money)?

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Tukaram.8256" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> > >

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> > >

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> > >

> > > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

> >

> > Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

> >

> > 25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

>

> Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

 

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"Tukaram.8256" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > > > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > > > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> > > >

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > > > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> > > >

> > > > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

> > >

> > > Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

> > >

> > > 25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

> >

> > Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

>

> Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

 

Yes I do.

 

Kill mobs = get loot

Open black lion chest = get loot

Mob loot resell value = 0

Blc contents resell value = 0

Kill mobs/do story = black lion key

gold to gems = black lion key

Pay cash = black lion key

 

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

 

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

 

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

 

 

[Tukaram.8256]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Tukaram.8256" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

> > > > > Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > >Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?

> > > > > It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > The game is rated 13+ btw.

> > > > > Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

> > > > >

> > > > > I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

> > > >

> > > > Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

> > > >

> > > > 25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

> > >

> > > Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

> >

> > Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

>

> Yes I do.

>

>**_ Kill mobs = get loot

> Open black lion chest = get loot

> Mob loot resell value = 0

> Blc contents resell value = 0

> Kill mobs/do story = black lion key

> gold to gems = black lion key

> Pay cash = black lion key_**

>

> This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

>

> I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

>

> All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

>

>

 

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.