I dont believe spellbreaker needs to be gutted.

[psizone.8437]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

 

> Which is not part of my argument, merely clarifying Spellbreaker being purely designed with PvP in mind.

>

> As I said, specs for specific gamemodes is a very, very bad idea but one that Anet went through with anyway. Now you're in a situation where they have to let these PvP specs be better at PvP than most because otherwise what is the point of them? **That** is my argument.

 

I said forget PvE (which you brought up) because Spellbreaker being bad there should have no part in how it's balanced in PvP.

 

Currently Spellbreaker is overtuned in WvW/sPvP compared to most other specs in WvW/sPvP and should be toned down to bring it in line. It's not the only spec that needs toned down.

 

PvP only specs are a terrible idea in a game such as this, yes, but just because a spec is PvP specific doesn't mean it should be overpowered compared to specs that are good in other game modes. That only makes things worse.

[Crossaber.8934]

> @psizone.8437 said:

> > @Crossaber.8934 said:

>

> > I think i am quite a bad player, as i got killed by condi lost counting since PoF than by power build seriously. Spellbreaker is designed to be a COUNTER to spell, so condi damage, aoe, clones, minion are within the design concept as a whole. High power spike, ranged power damage, high rof melee damage can kill a spellbreaker easily. Like i said, every class has advantage and disadvantage over another class in GW2, you can't expect every condi build should be able to dominant every class every elite spec.

> >

> > As a spellbreaker, i know there are direct counter to me, therefore i should be a direct counter to somebody as well.

>

> How many of those condition enemies that killed you were Scourges though? And were you running all 3 Resistance skills?

>

> Spellbreakers are far from useless against power specs, they're kill-able but they're far from a free kill.

 

So you think spellbreaker is OP solely because IF they decided to run all resistance to counter condi spec, and why should a spellbreaker run all resistance at all?

 

It is because wvw is now a condi cancer meta, but i will not run all resistance because i am not good enough to ignore all cc on the fly, power spike thief, power mesmer, kiting ranger etc. I need gap closer like bull's charge, I need balance stance for never ending CC, a full resistance spellbreaker can play a football role for enemy zerg.

 

If a build is specific made to counter condi and provide opening for non-condi spec, then yes, they should be stronger than condi spec.

 

Root cause is condi cancer is out of control, lets nerf condi game wide then we talk about resistance nerf.

[Choppy.4183]

Pulling the resistance from Revenge Counter wouldn't be unreasonable. We already have access to lots of resistance, and the condi copying (plus damage bonus) is already strong in this condi drenched meta.

 

Reducing the protection from the Adept trait, or fixing it so the FC damage has to hit a target wouldn't be the worst thing either. Noting that FC is bound to hit someone in a multi person melee.

 

[psizone.8437]

> @Crossaber.8934 said:

 

> It is because wvw is now a condi cancer meta, but i will not run all resistance because i am not good enough to ignore all cc on the fly, power spike thief, power mesmer, kiting ranger etc. I need gap closer like bull's charge, I need balance stance for never ending CC, a full resistance spellbreaker can play a football role for enemy zerg.

>

> If a build is specific made to counter condi and provide opening for non-condi spec, then yes, they should be stronger than condi spec.

>

> Root cause is condi cancer is out of control, lets nerf condi game wide then we talk about resistance nerf.

 

You can trait to activate Balanced Stance upon being CC'd, have all 3 Resistance skills whilst having room for Balanced stance on your Utilities skills (giving up Endure Pain for a second Balanced Stance). And for gap closers, Greatsword works great for that.

 

My point with this comment is that you don't give up much to have access to all of the Resistance.

 

Yes, condi is out of control, but they should balance these things together. Nerfing things one issue at a time creates even more imbalance.

[Lighter.5631]

spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

[Vambrace.8675]

> @psizone.8437 said:

> > @Crossaber.8934 said:

>

> > It is because wvw is now a condi cancer meta, but i will not run all resistance because i am not good enough to ignore all cc on the fly, power spike thief, power mesmer, kiting ranger etc. I need gap closer like bull's charge, I need balance stance for never ending CC, a full resistance spellbreaker can play a football role for enemy zerg.

> >

> > If a build is specific made to counter condi and provide opening for non-condi spec, then yes, they should be stronger than condi spec.

> >

> > Root cause is condi cancer is out of control, lets nerf condi game wide then we talk about resistance nerf.

>

> You can trait to activate Balanced Stance upon being CC'd, have all 3 Resistance skills whilst having room for Balanced stance on your Utilities skills (giving up Endure Pain for a second Balanced Stance). And for gap closers, Greatsword works great for that.

>

> My point with this comment is that you don't give up much to have access to all of the Resistance.

>

> Yes, condi is out of control, but they should balance these things together. Nerfing things one issue at a time creates even more imbalance.

 

You say this but yet you are focused on nerfing SB... I would say a reasonable adjustment would be to reduce the FC hits to the player that triggers it... Regarding resistances leave FC alone unless you have a solution to the ridiculous condi bomb situation. The Condi spam removes all skill and counter play from melee range... turns the game into hop scotch.

 

 

 

 

[Vambrace.8675]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

> but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

 

I find Necro considerably easier to play than warrior SB.

[Lighter.5631]

> @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

> > but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

>

> I find Necro considerably easier to play than warrior SB.

 

not really, and even so, still, comparing an op to another op doesnt justify it to not be gutted

[Vambrace.8675]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

> > > but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

> >

> > I find Necro considerably easier to play than warrior SB.

>

> not really, and even so, still, comparing an op to another op doesnt justify it to not be gutted

 

Using the word gutted implies you want the spec to be rendered useless, remove all the vital components.. how do you justify that exactly?

[Lighter.5631]

> @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > > spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

> > > > but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

> > >

> > > I find Necro considerably easier to play than warrior SB.

> >

> > not really, and even so, still, comparing an op to another op doesnt justify it to not be gutted

>

> Using the word gutted implies you want the spec to be rendered useless, remove all the vital components.. how do you justify that exactly?

 

i implies that this spec is going to get nerfed, gutted or not, actually personally i want to see defense line being gutted

[SWI.4127]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> i implies that this spec is going to get nerfed, gutted or not, actually personally i want to see defense line being gutted

 

The only thing that would do is hurt poor Core Warrior harder than SB. Who would claim core warrior was OP before PoF? Probably nobody. I see a lot of people complaining about Endure Pain, Adrenal Health, Berserker's Stance, etc. Things that have been in the game for a long time. I guess everybody forgot how to play against Warriors since they haven't been in the meta or something?

[Choppy.4183]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > > @Vambrace.8675 said:

> > > > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > > > spellbreaker needs to be gutted because it's too easy to get a hands on..

> > > > > but not like anet will never increase warrior's skillfloor

> > > >

> > > > I find Necro considerably easier to play than warrior SB.

> > >

> > > not really, and even so, still, comparing an op to another op doesnt justify it to not be gutted

> >

> > Using the word gutted implies you want the spec to be rendered useless, remove all the vital components.. how do you justify that exactly?

>

> i implies that this spec is going to get nerfed, gutted or not, actually personally i want to see defense line being gutted

 

Gut the defense line? The thing that hasn't seen a buff since April 2016, which, in the months previous the class was in the pvp and wvw garbage heap due to lack of sustain and still never made it to top tier play after that buff? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying warrior is underpowered at the moment, but dayam son, you're not shooting straight.

[Hitman.5829]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> Specifically i dont believe if its gonna be nerfed (which im positive it will) that it should be on its kit and abilities.

>

> Imo it should rather be hit on trait that make particular playstyles too strong. But again not gutted either.

>

> Take this with a grain of salt, im not a warr main and i wont pretend ik exactly how the whole fulcounter tank like builds work but i dont believe every trait and build setup the class has should be gutted just because a particular one overperforms. Much like with mirage (my main) i wouldnt like to see my power build gutted because they didnt aproach the condi build with more care (which i find abit sily atm).

>

> With that being said a small cd increase on counter ( a sec or 2 wouldnt hurt anyone :3 )

>

>

 

You are the typical mesmer spammer that presses all buttons in hopes of melting down warrior in 1.5 seconds. Learn to play and stop spamming your skills! Full counter activates on hit, so be smart and don't hit it. SIMPLE!

An increase in cooldown will only lead to warrior getting spammed with skills, Full counter is the anti-spam that warrior needed.

[Choppy.4183]

> @Hitman.5829 said:

> > @zealex.9410 said:

> > Specifically i dont believe if its gonna be nerfed (which im positive it will) that it should be on its kit and abilities.

> >

> > Imo it should rather be hit on trait that make particular playstyles too strong. But again not gutted either.

> >

> > Take this with a grain of salt, im not a warr main and i wont pretend ik exactly how the whole fulcounter tank like builds work but i dont believe every trait and build setup the class has should be gutted just because a particular one overperforms. Much like with mirage (my main) i wouldnt like to see my power build gutted because they didnt aproach the condi build with more care (which i find abit sily atm).

> >

> > With that being said a small cd increase on counter ( a sec or 2 wouldnt hurt anyone :3 )

> >

> >

>

> You are the typical mesmer spammer that presses all buttons in hopes of melting down warrior in 1.5 seconds. Learn to play and stop spamming your skills! Full counter activates on hit, so be smart and don't hit it. SIMPLE!

> An increase in cooldown will only lead to warrior getting spammed with skills, Full counter is the anti-spam that warrior needed.

 

On what basis do you conclude he's a "typical mesmer spammer"? His comment was reasonable and respectful, and he didn't even really complain about Full Counter. All he's called for is for people screaming for nerfs to cool their jets, and that any nerfs that do come should be surgical.

[Garr.1823]

At this moment Warrior is really OP profession, cause he can hit like a truck (25-100% hp damage with every hit) and be able to survive longer than any other class at the same time. I think it should be more like "if you want to be a tank - it will take much longer for you to kill someone, and vice versa".

Full counter is just a pinnacle of that problem.

And don't get me wrong - I don't want warrior to be overnerfed.

 

P.S.: "too much damage" - is a problem of current GW to be honest, not only warriors.

[Lighter.5631]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > i implies that this spec is going to get nerfed, gutted or not, actually personally i want to see defense line being gutted

>

> The only thing that would do is hurt poor Core Warrior harder than SB. Who would claim core warrior was OP before PoF? Probably nobody. I see a lot of people complaining about Endure Pain, Adrenal Health, Berserker's Stance, etc. Things that have been in the game for a long time. I guess everybody forgot how to play against Warriors since they haven't been in the meta or something?

 

who cares? i'm tired of defense line, i want to see something else other then stances and defense line.

[Warlord.9074]

It's not so simple to gut base warrior resistance. Spellbreaker resistance, you are referring to a 2 second resistance if traited, and a 5 second resistance on a 30 sec CD. Neither of which is easy to gut because here is the problem. Spellbreakers use only level 1 bursts so Cleansing IRE is useless. Then basically Spellbreakers have no relaible way to deal with condis without traiting for discipline that is 1 condi on swap or using a heal skill that removes all of theier boons. They can use a signet but then give up somthing like EP for it.

 

Passive EP is a none issue I hear some people in here complaining about double EP ok passive EP is 2 seconds thats a none issue Im surpirsed anyone can even complain about that. EP also doesn't stop condis.

 

Spellbreaker dammage isn't high that is luaghable that people think its high. It is very low DPS 20k in PVE and only using level one bursts with no weapon specific traits on a standard build. It simply not huge DPS compared to like other classes like Holosmith, Deadeye, soulbeast, it doesn't burst like a mesmer shatter or scourage anything. I find it funny. Warrior is surviving only on smart dodging and kiting and playing opponents.

[psizone.8437]

> @Vambrace.8675 said:

 

> You say this but yet you are focused on nerfing SB... I would say a reasonable adjustment would be to reduce the FC hits to the player that triggers it... Regarding resistances leave FC alone unless you have a solution to the ridiculous condi bomb situation. The Condi spam removes all skill and counter play from melee range... turns the game into hop scotch.

>

You're conveniently missing out all the times I said specific condition classes need to be toned down then?

 

I'm mostly focusing on Spellbreaker because we're currently in the Warrior subforum.

[psizone.8437]

> @Warlord.9074 said:

> It's not so simple to gut base warrior resistance. Spellbreaker resistance, you are referring to a 2 second resistance if traited, and a 5 second resistance on a 30 sec CD. Neither of which is easy to gut because here is the problem. Spellbreakers use only level 1 bursts so Cleansing IRE is useless. Then basically Spellbreakers have no relaible way to deal with condis without traiting for discipline that is 1 condi on swap or using a heal skill that removes all of theier boons. They can use a signet but then give up somthing like EP for it.

 

 

We have access to other condition removal skills. Mending and Signet of Stamina.

 

Base Warrior Resistance shouldn't be touched as that would hurt core Warrior and Berserker but Spellbreaker should have one of its Resistances removed, either from Counter or from Featherfoot Grace.

 

Again, keep in mind that massive condi spam should be nerfed so removing one of the Resistances won't hurt Spellbreaker that much assuming Anet does the right thing in regards to condi spam. As it works currently, Spellbreaker hurts condition classes that aren't problematic (Ranger, Engie etc) more than it hurts those that spam the most conditions (Scourge specifically).

 

[Crossaber.8934]

> @psizone.8437 said:

> > @Warlord.9074 said:

> > It's not so simple to gut base warrior resistance. Spellbreaker resistance, you are referring to a 2 second resistance if traited, and a 5 second resistance on a 30 sec CD. Neither of which is easy to gut because here is the problem. Spellbreakers use only level 1 bursts so Cleansing IRE is useless. Then basically Spellbreakers have no relaible way to deal with condis without traiting for discipline that is 1 condi on swap or using a heal skill that removes all of theier boons. They can use a signet but then give up somthing like EP for it.

>

>

> We have access to other condition removal skills. Mending and Signet of Stamina.

>

> Base Warrior Resistance shouldn't be touched as that would hurt core Warrior and Berserker but Spellbreaker should have one of its Resistances removed, either from Counter or from Featherfoot Grace.

>

> Again, keep in mind that massive condi spam should be nerfed so removing one of the Resistances won't hurt Spellbreaker that much assuming Anet does the right thing in regards to condi spam. As it works currently, Spellbreaker hurts condition classes that aren't problematic (Ranger, Engie etc) more than it hurts those that spam the most conditions (Scourge specifically).

>

 

If condi spam can be greatly reduced, it more than enough reason to chop some resistance from warrior, but the PoF elite is telling me otherwise.

 

Let focus on condi spam cancer treatment, then deal with resistance issue.

[Harry Foud.1935]

I dont think it needs to be gutted. I think full counter needs to be gutted. Having 1 min of invl is not ok.

[stone cold.8609]

To put this discussion in perspective, I'm a PvE only player and from experience I can tell you that the Spellbreaker is not OP there. It's actually weak compared to other available warrior and non-warrior builds and dagger damage needs a buff to be competitive. I fear that this will be a situation where once again a weakish PvE spec will be severely nerfed in the name of WvW/PvP balance.

[Frostwolve.2916]

Warriors shouldn't be a free kill. Which is basically what you want them nerfed into.

[Hitman.5829]

> @Choppy.4183 said:

> > @Hitman.5829 said:

> > > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > Specifically i dont believe if its gonna be nerfed (which im positive it will) that it should be on its kit and abilities.

> > >

> > > Imo it should rather be hit on trait that make particular playstyles too strong. But again not gutted either.

> > >

> > > Take this with a grain of salt, im not a warr main and i wont pretend ik exactly how the whole fulcounter tank like builds work but i dont believe every trait and build setup the class has should be gutted just because a particular one overperforms. Much like with mirage (my main) i wouldnt like to see my power build gutted because they didnt aproach the condi build with more care (which i find abit sily atm).

> > >

> > > With that being said a small cd increase on counter ( a sec or 2 wouldnt hurt anyone :3 )

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You are the typical mesmer spammer that presses all buttons in hopes of melting down warrior in 1.5 seconds. Learn to play and stop spamming your skills! Full counter activates on hit, so be smart and don't hit it. SIMPLE!

> > An increase in cooldown will only lead to warrior getting spammed with skills, Full counter is the anti-spam that warrior needed.

>

> On what basis do you conclude he's a "typical mesmer spammer"? His comment was reasonable and respectful, and he didn't even really complain about Full Counter. All he's called for is for people screaming for nerfs to cool their jets, and that any nerfs that do come should be surgical.

 

He is asking for an increase in cooldown of Full Counter.

Warrior is a melee class, if you have played warrior you know how annoying it is to be spammed with skills from 1200 range; by the time you get to the attacker, you are 1/2 health and you have used most of your mobility skills and stances. An increase in cooldown will only lead to the spellbreaker being useless because the whole SP specialization revolves around this burst.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @psizone.8437 said:

> > @Warlord.9074 said:

> > It's not so simple to gut base warrior resistance. Spellbreaker resistance, you are referring to a 2 second resistance if traited, and a 5 second resistance on a 30 sec CD. Neither of which is easy to gut because here is the problem. Spellbreakers use only level 1 bursts so Cleansing IRE is useless. Then basically Spellbreakers have no relaible way to deal with condis without traiting for discipline that is 1 condi on swap or using a heal skill that removes all of theier boons. They can use a signet but then give up somthing like EP for it.

>

>

> We have access to other condition removal skills. Mending and Signet of Stamina.

>

> Base Warrior Resistance shouldn't be touched as that would hurt core Warrior and Berserker but Spellbreaker should have one of its Resistances removed, either from Counter or from Featherfoot Grace.

>

> Again, keep in mind that massive condi spam should be nerfed so removing one of the Resistances won't hurt Spellbreaker that much assuming Anet does the right thing in regards to condi spam. As it works currently, Spellbreaker hurts condition classes that aren't problematic (Ranger, Engie etc) more than it hurts those that spam the most conditions (Scourge specifically).

>

 

The only reason i believe that feather foot grace has resist, is to disable any movement impeding effects for its duration to help it as a escape and catch up mechanism. So people end up taking it, not for its intended worth but simply due to the resist.

 

Grace should be reworked to make it only disable any negative movement features, (IE chill will only remove the movement slowdown and not the skill slowdown)

It would still be useful, but it would also not be a must have giving other skills room to shine.