ZDragon.3046 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the **"skills that do too many things at once"** category **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. Grants quickness Inflicts slow Steals up to 3 boons xfers up to 3 conditions is unblockable. Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** Convers 3 boons to conditions is Unblockable Inflicts self poison Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > Grants quickness > Inflicts slow > Steals up to 3 boons > xfers up to 3 conditions > is unblockable. > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > Convers 3 boons to conditions > is Unblockable > Inflicts self poison > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. lol, you forgot to mention that corrupt is stronger then switching boons/condis. for example you cant hard CC with AT, you can with corrupt boon. AT cant reach its top effectiveness unless you have condis on you, not everyone uses condis. against warrior for example its " steal might " button and thats it. meanwhile corrupt boon is 25might -> weakness meaning warrior loses 60%+ dmg on top of possibility of other things. IT also has 2 charges. It also recharges faster, if I could take corrupt boon on cmirage I would 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > Grants quickness > > Inflicts slow > > Steals up to 3 boons > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > is unblockable. > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > is Unblockable > > Inflicts self poison > > > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > lol, you forgot to mention that corrupt is stronger then switching boons/condis. This is a subjective statement not factual. > for example you cant hard CC with AT, you can with corrupt boon. You are looking at the best case potential of Corrupt boon but generally speaking i personally dont agree that Corrupt boon is stronger in most general cases. If you land it and get a fear i would consider it stronger any time you land it and dont get a fear i would consider it considerably weaker. Even more so since it applies a condition to the caster even on successful hit. Unlike AT which rewards the caster with quickness on hit. The odds of you hitting stability into CC is based on the foes own boon application and in many cases is not relevant on all professions as not all professions plunder long durations of stability or in some cases much stability at all. While it is true that AT cannot hard cc it does inflict one of the strongest if not the strongest soft CC in the game ever time on hit. Does not require anyboons to even be on the target can can just be used for extra suppression. > AT cant reach its top effectiveness unless you have condis on you, not everyone uses condis. against warrior for example its " steal might " button and thats it. The same can be said for Corrupt boon though. ITs top effectiveness would require two things. A foe at least have 3 boons or more A foe has stability that is not covered by other boons. > meanwhile corrupt boon is 25might -> weakness meaning warrior loses 60%+ dmg on top of possibility of other things. But AT will take all 25 might from a foe and grant it to the caster > warrior loses the damage and mesmer gains the damage which can still be seen as questionably better but this is also subjective > IT also has 2 charges. Yes but im looking at actions per use having a second charge holds no value into the number of things (tool tip listed) a skill does at once when activated. > It also recharges faster, if I could take corrupt boon on cmirage I would 100%. thats a fair argument to make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > Grants quickness > > > Inflicts slow > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > is Unblockable > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > > > lol, you forgot to mention that corrupt is stronger then switching boons/condis. > This is a subjective statement not factual. > > for example you cant hard CC with AT, you can with corrupt boon. > You are looking at the best case potential of Corrupt boon but generally speaking i personally dont agree that Corrupt boon is stronger in most general cases. If you land it and get a fear i would consider it stronger any time you land it and dont get a fear i would consider it considerably weaker. Even more so since it applies a condition to the caster even on successful hit. Unlike AT which rewards the caster with quickness on hit. > The odds of you hitting stability into CC is based on the foes own boon application and in many cases is not relevant on all professions as not all professions plunder long durations of stability or in some cases much stability at all. > > While it is true that AT cannot hard cc it does inflict one of the strongest if not the strongest soft CC in the game ever time on hit. Does not require anyboons to even be on the target can can just be used for extra suppression. > > > AT cant reach its top effectiveness unless you have condis on you, not everyone uses condis. against warrior for example its " steal might " button and thats it. > The same can be said for Corrupt boon though. ITs top effectiveness would require two things. > A foe at least have 3 boons or more > A foe has stability that is not covered by other boons. > > > meanwhile corrupt boon is 25might -> weakness meaning warrior loses 60%+ dmg on top of possibility of other things. > But AT will take all 25 might from a foe and grant it to the caster > warrior loses the damage and mesmer gains the damage which can still be seen as questionably better but this is also subjective > > IT also has 2 charges. > Yes but im looking at actions per use having a second charge holds no value into the number of things (tool tip listed) a skill does at once when activated. > > It also recharges faster, if I could take corrupt boon on cmirage I would 100%. > thats a fair argument to make > > what I ment to say is that corrupt boon has better peak ( corrupt stab ) has more charges ( so its more reliable, can try twice ) + its more generic, everyone has at least 3 boons. to get full value of AT you need condis AND boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > > Grants quickness > > > > Inflicts slow > > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > > is Unblockable > > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > > > > > lol, you forgot to mention that corrupt is stronger then switching boons/condis. > > This is a subjective statement not factual. > > > for example you cant hard CC with AT, you can with corrupt boon. > > You are looking at the best case potential of Corrupt boon but generally speaking i personally dont agree that Corrupt boon is stronger in most general cases. If you land it and get a fear i would consider it stronger any time you land it and dont get a fear i would consider it considerably weaker. Even more so since it applies a condition to the caster even on successful hit. Unlike AT which rewards the caster with quickness on hit. > > The odds of you hitting stability into CC is based on the foes own boon application and in many cases is not relevant on all professions as not all professions plunder long durations of stability or in some cases much stability at all. > > > > While it is true that AT cannot hard cc it does inflict one of the strongest if not the strongest soft CC in the game ever time on hit. Does not require anyboons to even be on the target can can just be used for extra suppression. > > > > > AT cant reach its top effectiveness unless you have condis on you, not everyone uses condis. against warrior for example its " steal might " button and thats it. > > The same can be said for Corrupt boon though. ITs top effectiveness would require two things. > > A foe at least have 3 boons or more > > A foe has stability that is not covered by other boons. > > > > > meanwhile corrupt boon is 25might -> weakness meaning warrior loses 60%+ dmg on top of possibility of other things. > > But AT will take all 25 might from a foe and grant it to the caster > warrior loses the damage and mesmer gains the damage which can still be seen as questionably better but this is also subjective > > > IT also has 2 charges. > > Yes but im looking at actions per use having a second charge holds no value into the number of things (tool tip listed) a skill does at once when activated. > > > It also recharges faster, if I could take corrupt boon on cmirage I would 100%. > > thats a fair argument to make > > > > > > what I ment to say is that corrupt boon has better peak ( corrupt stab ) > has more charges ( so its more reliable, can try twice ) Even if we factor in 2 uses AT technically still does more effects in a single use than CB does in 2 uses. Keep in mind again im looking at the number of things a skill does in a single use. "Skills that do too many things at once" The game has alot of skills like this (necro has quite a few too dont worry but i dont consider Corrupt boon to be one of them. I do for example consider Scepter 3 on necro ((when traited even more so)) to be one of the skills that does too many things at once back to the topic at hand.) > + its more generic, everyone has at least 3 boons. to get full value of AT you need condis AND boons. As i said AT does too many things at once it's both defensive and offensive. Its not that you need conditions to make the most of it its that you can choose to wait till you have conditions and use it defensively for condition clear or you can use it offensively and just rip your foes boons for yourself while inflicting them with slow and following up with quickness boosted attacks. A skill more similar to this kind of function is actually Plague signet's active. It is both defensive and offensive as it inflicts condition and clears conditions from the caster but the difference her is that using it with no condition on the caster = no benefit. Using AT with no conditions or even no boons on an enemy still grants a benefit. Using CB on a foe with no boons = a hinderance as it will inflict self poison. CB is more or less designed to be strictly offensive its built to be a 1 way street with how its used for the most part there is no defensive aspect like condition xfer built into its skill effect. Can you use it to technically defend yourself by converting stab to fear? yes... but is it technically a defensive skill... no not really. AT is more of a 2 or even 3 way street you can choose to use it purely offensively and take boons while inflicting slow or even just out right for the slow and quickness gain use it defensively and wait till you need to remove conditions. use it optimally and do both of the above at the same time if the opportunity comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 You know that there currently are 3 in 1 skills who : * clear condi and does damage. * Breakstunt and CC and give mobility and does damage. * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear and restore main mechanic. * Stunbreak and teleport and condiclear. * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear. * Stunbreak and give superspeed and evade. * Stunbreak and remove condition. * Stunbreak and give boons. * Stunbreak and inflict condition. * Stunbreak and give class mechanic. + some of them have aoe effects. + many of them are instant (no cast.). Not even counting the trait who give passives effects under normal rotation. Mean if you count on AT as main condiclear you will have some suprises when opponent evade the swap. So you will better look at what you have on your, "like everyone 3 on 1 pegi 4 class", before crying about how the grass look better at the neighbor's garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > Grants quickness > Inflicts slow > Steals up to 3 boons > xfers up to 3 conditions > is unblockable. > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > Convers 3 boons to conditions > is Unblockable > Inflicts self poison Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > Grants quickness > > Inflicts slow > > Steals up to 3 boons > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > is unblockable. > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > is Unblockable > > Inflicts self poison > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal. I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you. The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them. These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poelala.2830 Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > > Reason why is it has no tell and it has too much utility at such a short cool down and such a long range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back before Spectral Walk was ridiculously powercrept to cleanse 6 conditions, Scourges were largely running Plague Signet which would instantly and with absolutely no tell throw 5 conditions from the necromancer onto the target. Only a slightly longer cooldown, 30s vs 24s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and this is no longer a problem. Delete AT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It'll be a problem again if Spectral Walk gets it's power creep reversed of if the meta becomes truly condi heavy. > > > > > > > > And earth staff core ele will be a problem if they make a trait where ele is invuln every time she swaps to earth. > > > > > > > > Hypothetical statements aren’t arguments. > > > > > > Plague signet still exists and still instantly applies 5 conditions from the necromancer and ignores blind. This isn't a "what if". It's seen historical META use, it's still in the game, it'll see use again. This is a direct comparison between existing class capabilities. > > > > Whether these two exist or not is irrelevant because your argument is about potential abuse. AT is being abused, plague signet is not. > > > > AT isn't be abused. It does exactly what it's supposed to. Abuse would be daredevils jumping with Staff 3 keeping them inplace allowing them to evade without moving away from the node. Please explain to me how you think that isn’t being used as intended, that this thing which is very clearly unbalanced and was designed to be unbalanced is being used in a certain way is abuse, but AT is not? These are equivalent principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > > > Reason why is it has no tell and it has too much utility at such a short cool down and such a long range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back before Spectral Walk was ridiculously powercrept to cleanse 6 conditions, Scourges were largely running Plague Signet which would instantly and with absolutely no tell throw 5 conditions from the necromancer onto the target. Only a slightly longer cooldown, 30s vs 24s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and this is no longer a problem. Delete AT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It'll be a problem again if Spectral Walk gets it's power creep reversed of if the meta becomes truly condi heavy. > > > > > > > > > > And earth staff core ele will be a problem if they make a trait where ele is invuln every time she swaps to earth. > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetical statements aren’t arguments. > > > > > > > > Plague signet still exists and still instantly applies 5 conditions from the necromancer and ignores blind. This isn't a "what if". It's seen historical META use, it's still in the game, it'll see use again. This is a direct comparison between existing class capabilities. > > > > > > Whether these two exist or not is irrelevant because your argument is about potential abuse. AT is being abused, plague signet is not. > > > > > > > AT isn't be abused. It does exactly what it's supposed to. Abuse would be daredevils jumping with Staff 3 keeping them inplace allowing them to evade without moving away from the node. > > Please explain to me how you think that isn’t being used as intended, that this thing which is very clearly unbalanced and was designed to be unbalanced is being used in a certain way is abuse, but AT is not? These are equivalent principles. becouse jump staff was a bug, and it was fixed. nerfing ini to 5 was overkill but hey, anet be anet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > You know that there currently are 3 in 1 skills who : > * clear condi and does damage. > * Breakstunt and CC and give mobility and does damage. > * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear and restore main mechanic. > * Stunbreak and teleport and condiclear. > * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear. > * Stunbreak and give superspeed and evade. > * Stunbreak and remove condition. > * Stunbreak and give boons. > * Stunbreak and inflict condition. > * Stunbreak and give class mechanic. > > + some of them have aoe effects. > + many of them are instant (no cast.). > > Not even counting the trait who give passives effects under normal rotation. > Mean if you count on AT as main condiclear you will have some suprises when opponent evade the swap. > > So you will better look at what you have on your, "like everyone 3 on 1 pegi 4 class", before crying about how the grass look better at the neighbor's garden. Lightning reflex is a two way skill mobility and cc removal that counts as two for ranger and its pretty darn good. I used it to escape and it helped a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > Grants quickness > > > Inflicts slow > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > is Unblockable > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. > > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal. > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you. > > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them. > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time. > Corrupt Boon: Removes 3 boons Applies 3 conditions Unblockable 18s cool down 2 charges. Arcane Thievery: Removes 3 boons Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions Unblockable 25s cool down "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it. "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness" Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too... "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding." Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually. Edit: As I say the actual mechanic of AT needs fixing then it should lose the quickness and slow, then maybe look at the cool down bringing it in line with the power level CMC hopefully nerfs everything down to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > Grants quickness > Inflicts slow > Steals up to 3 boons > xfers up to 3 conditions > is unblockable. > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > Convers 3 boons to conditions > is Unblockable > Inflicts self poison > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. Cluelessness amazed me here tbh. Like AT fail to hit almost all the time regardless of enemies dont even bother to dodge. Boon steal/corrupt priority is vastly different and AT doesnt prioritize any crucial boons (actually only resistance). This "drawback" is a feature of all corruption utilities for necromancer and because they are supposed to "control" conditions, like transfering them, they can transfer it to enemies. >Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. "I dont care that CB is 18s cd (vs 25),2 ammo skill and has insanely better effect (corruption of crucial boons such as protection/resistance/stabilty into negative conditions and potentially a CC skill) because they have slow and quickness ! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" imded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > > Grants quickness > > > > Inflicts slow > > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > > is Unblockable > > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. > > > > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal. > > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you. > > > > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them. > > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time. > > > > Corrupt Boon: > Removes 3 boons > Applies 3 conditions > Unblockable > 18s cool down > 2 charges. > > Arcane Thievery: > Removes 3 boons > Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions > Unblockable > 25s cool down > > "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it. > > "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness" > > Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too... I generally dont like to leave things out regardless of what "what other traits might be" That could also be seen as an unrealistic example we cant assume that just because someone runs corrupt boon they also run curses thus making the self poison no factor in some way. I wouldn't do that for mesmer either im looking at the raw skills in question not everything else that may or may not be. > > "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding." I dont know how the skill is buggy its never bugged on me any time ive used it but feel free to enlighten me. The skill always felt like it worked properly just as corrupt boon does. > > Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually. To be fair i dont think I ever said that.. I said it always will slow and grant quickness regardless if the target has boons or not or if you have conditions or not i think you misread me there (or i mistyped it). I know its an unrealistic example to assume it will always xfer 3 condis or take 3 boons the same can be said for CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > Grants quickness > > Inflicts slow > > Steals up to 3 boons > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > is unblockable. > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > is Unblockable > > Inflicts self poison > > > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > Cluelessness amazed me here tbh. Like AT fail to hit almost all the time regardless of enemies dont even bother to dodge. Boon steal/corrupt priority is vastly different and AT doesnt prioritize any crucial boons (actually only resistance). This "drawback" is a feature of all corruption utilities for necromancer and because they are supposed to "control" conditions, like transfering them, they can transfer it to enemies. here we go... rude... but ok.... So i cant count the number of times daily i get hit with AT and of all the times ive used AT it almost always hits unless the target is obstructed. I cant speak on bugs other people experience with it because i dont experience them. That said i do experience hitting and being hit with AT a lot. You almost never see the cast but you always see when your boons vanish and you are slowed. Generally speaking pirority list are not that important so long as you know what profession you are fighting you have a good idea of what boons you can generally take with the exception of a few who just have way too much boon access (but ill get back to this.) Slow is one of the rarest conditions in the game considering people dont play chrono atm. IF you got slowed while fighting a mesmer generally its going to be AT hit you. As far as i know the prioritize list go both are generally bad (from what i could gather) The only good priority boon steal is with thief's traits. I know the thing you would want to hit the most if possible with CB is the last thing in its list I dont know what the list for AT is but generally speaking trying to tell some one why 1 is stronger over the other could be subjective if putting priority list into the mix. As there could be different preferences between different people, I dont think trying to say that one is stronger over the other based on priorities between the 2 skills can be determined. Even more so when most people dont know the full exact priority list for both, however even if some one does know the list for both see my previous sentence. > >Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > "I dont care that CB is 18s cd (vs 25),2 ammo skill and has insanely better effect (corruption of crucial boons such as protection/resistance/stabilty into negative conditions and potentially a CC skill) because they have slow and quickness ! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Thats your personal opinion that it has a better effect though. I personally think being able to snatch someones boons and keep them foryourself as a bonus is very powerful. I personally would much rather steal boons over just removing / corrupting them. I think its a much rarer and cooler mechanic. Also its kind of hard to ignore when someone snaps 25 might and some other boons off another player and pretends like thats not a benefit. REEEEEEEEEEEE The only factual thing is that yes it has 2 charges and a lower cd. Turning boons into conditions can have a wide range of effect to "you just got screwed" to "It didnt do much at all" Its really not a stable skill its all over the place with a ver low and high potential and depending on the target. Not all professions keep critical boons that will instantly screw them over and not all professions allow the most critical boons to easily be converted via boon covering. Just looking at CB by itself its not all that hot. Dont let necromancers other boon corrupts fool you into thinking the skill itself is stronger than what it really is. Necros boon corrupts in general as whole are very strong. CB by itself is not all that but it is when combined with others. Im not saying the skill is bad but AT is far more stable and its minimal potential is generally higher than CB imo. The fact that it has something that is always promised to happen on successful hit its like rolling dice and you know one dice will land on the number you want every time vs corrupt boon which can feel like a slot machine depending on the target and how much they are drowning themselves in boon. "so ded" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > Grants quickness > > > Inflicts slow > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > is Unblockable > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > > > Cluelessness amazed me here tbh. Like AT fail to hit almost all the time regardless of enemies dont even bother to dodge. Boon steal/corrupt priority is vastly different and AT doesnt prioritize any crucial boons (actually only resistance). This "drawback" is a feature of all corruption utilities for necromancer and because they are supposed to "control" conditions, like transfering them, they can transfer it to enemies. > here we go... rude... but ok.... > > So i cant count the number of times daily i get hit with AT and of all the times ive used AT it almost always hits unless the target is obstructed. > I cant speak on bugs other people experience with it because i dont experience them. That said i do experience hitting and being hit with AT a lot. You almost never see the cast but you always see when your boons vanish and you are slowed. Generally speaking pirority list are not that important so long as you know what profession you are fighting you have a good idea of what boons you can generally take with the exception of a few who just have way too much boon access (but ill get back to this.) Slow is one of the rarest conditions in the game considering people dont play chrono atm. IF you got slowed while fighting a mesmer generally its going to be AT hit you. > > As far as i know the prioritize list go both are generally bad (from what i could gather) The only good priority boon steal is with thief's traits. > I know the thing you would want to hit the most if possible with CB is the last thing in its list I dont know what the list for AT is but generally speaking trying to tell some one why 1 is stronger over the other could be subjective if putting priority list into the mix. As there could be different preferences between different people, I dont think trying to say that one is stronger over the other based on priorities between the 2 skills can be determined. > Even more so when most people dont know the full exact priority list for both, however even if some one does know the list for both see my previous sentence. > > >Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use. > > "I dont care that CB is 18s cd (vs 25),2 ammo skill and has insanely better effect (corruption of crucial boons such as protection/resistance/stabilty into negative conditions and potentially a CC skill) because they have slow and quickness ! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" > Thats your personal opinion that it has a better effect though. I personally think being able to snatch someones boons and keep them foryourself as a bonus is very powerful. I personally would much rather steal boons over just removing / corrupting them. I think its a much rarer and cooler mechanic. Also its kind of hard to ignore when someone snaps 25 might and some other boons off another player and pretends like thats not a benefit. REEEEEEEEEEEE > > The only factual thing is that yes it has 2 charges and a lower cd. Turning boons into conditions can have a wide range of effect to "you just got screwed" to "It didnt do much at all" Its really not a stable skill its all over the place with a ver low and high potential and depending on the target. Not all professions keep critical boons that will instantly screw them over and not all professions allow the most critical boons to easily be converted via boon covering. Just looking at CB by itself its not all that hot. Dont let necromancers other boon corrupts fool you into thinking the skill itself is stronger than what it really is. Necros boon corrupts in general as whole are very strong. CB by itself is not all that but it is when combined with others. > > Im not saying the skill is bad but AT is far more stable and its minimal potential is generally higher than CB imo. The fact that it has something that is always promised to happen on successful hit its like rolling dice and you know one dice will land on the number you want every time vs corrupt boon which can feel like a slot machine depending on the target and how much they are drowning themselves in boon. > "so ded" ? tldr - I think AT is busted but CP is sh1t. Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 If mesmer was deleted this would technically solve the issue. Just throwing that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > > > Grants quickness > > > > > Inflicts slow > > > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > > > is Unblockable > > > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. > > > > > > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal. > > > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you. > > > > > > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them. > > > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time. > > > > > > > Corrupt Boon: > > Removes 3 boons > > Applies 3 conditions > > Unblockable > > 18s cool down > > 2 charges. > > > > Arcane Thievery: > > Removes 3 boons > > Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions > > Unblockable > > 25s cool down > > > > "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it. > > > > "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness" > > > > Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too... > > I generally dont like to leave things out regardless of what "what other traits might be" That could also be seen as an unrealistic example we cant assume that just because someone runs corrupt boon they also run curses thus making the self poison no factor in some way. I wouldn't do that for mesmer either im looking at the raw skills in question not everything else that may or may not be. > > > > > "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding." > I dont know how the skill is buggy its never bugged on me any time ive used it but feel free to enlighten me. The skill always felt like it worked properly just as corrupt boon does. > > > > Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually. > To be fair i dont think I ever said that.. I said it always will slow and grant quickness regardless if the target has boons or not or if you have conditions or not i think you misread me there (or i mistyped it). I know its an unrealistic example to assume it will always xfer 3 condis or take 3 boons the same can be said for CB. > > I compared the base skills of corrupt boon and arcane thievery. I was talking about actually getting the most from both abilities at their core which is far easier on corrupt boon because people are swimming in boons and you can time it for stab really easily especially with 2 charges, the same cannot be said for arcane thievery as there's few times you will get optimal cleanse and boon removal at the same time. Go back and read my first post then, it's on the first page, I describe why it bugs out and how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the > > > > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category > > > > > > > > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit. > > > > > > Grants quickness > > > > > > Inflicts slow > > > > > > Steals up to 3 boons > > > > > > xfers up to 3 conditions > > > > > > is unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon** > > > > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions > > > > > > is Unblockable > > > > > > Inflicts self poison > > > > > > > > > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out. > > > > > > > > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal. > > > > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you. > > > > > > > > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them. > > > > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time. > > > > > > > > > > Corrupt Boon: > > > Removes 3 boons > > > Applies 3 conditions > > > Unblockable > > > 18s cool down > > > 2 charges. > > > > > > Arcane Thievery: > > > Removes 3 boons > > > Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions > > > Unblockable > > > 25s cool down > > > > > > "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it. > > > > > > "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness" > > > > > > Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too... > > > > I generally dont like to leave things out regardless of what "what other traits might be" That could also be seen as an unrealistic example we cant assume that just because someone runs corrupt boon they also run curses thus making the self poison no factor in some way. I wouldn't do that for mesmer either im looking at the raw skills in question not everything else that may or may not be. > > > > > > > > "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding." > > I dont know how the skill is buggy its never bugged on me any time ive used it but feel free to enlighten me. The skill always felt like it worked properly just as corrupt boon does. > > > > > > Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually. > > To be fair i dont think I ever said that.. I said it always will slow and grant quickness regardless if the target has boons or not or if you have conditions or not i think you misread me there (or i mistyped it). I know its an unrealistic example to assume it will always xfer 3 condis or take 3 boons the same can be said for CB. > > > > > > I compared the base skills of corrupt boon and arcane thievery. I was talking about actually getting the most from both abilities at their core which is far easier on corrupt boon because people are swimming in boons and you can time it for stab really easily especially with 2 charges, the same cannot be said for arcane thievery as there's few times you will get optimal cleanse and boon removal at the same time. Fair I think getting stab converts depends on the profession its easier on some and not so much on others depending on their boon varietyl. For example fearing a firebrand might be difficult because they have a wider spread of boons which can cover the stab. Fearing a warrior who uses stab is not as hard because their boons are limited to roughly 3-4 types at most 5 types of boons with stab being one of them so its a lot higher potential corrupt it. Its kind of a wide range between very effective and not that effective. Even more so when you look at professions like thief where at most you can hope for commonly is vigor, swiftness, and maybe a fury conversion at best in most cases. Concerning AT I honestly dont think the skill is built to be used as a "optimal" thing every time because it has offensive and defensive properties. For that to be the case the skill needs to be 100% offensive or 100% defensive. In the case of AT i really think its a 50/50 between offensive and defensive thus trying to get optimal use out of it of course is going to be difficult cause you need to be in a situation where you are attacking and defending at the same time and in most cases you are doing one or the other not both. Corrupt boon really has no defensive side built into it so you will for the most part only use it offensively even via the "best defense is a good offense" situation (say fearing a warrior's rampage for example) there is no saving it because you want to condition clear or any kind of aspect like that built into it. Both skills have their clunky aspects i guess AT is 50/50 on offenise an defense so its hard to use optimally in most cases. CB is very effective or not that effective depending on what the target is and its boon verity and generation. > > Go back and read my first post then, it's on the first page, I describe why it bugs out and how. I will go take a peek at that I really am curious tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 @"ZDragon.3046" Corrupt boon very similar yet very different to AT. Corrupt boon CAN be defensive, but it depends on the oponents. Against holo? Corrupting might works, Fury works, Stab works, swiftness works. Less might = less damage. Weakness = less damage. Less fur = less damage + blind. Stab = fear, hard CC. Swiftness into cripple gives ALOT of ground against different classes, expecially when you have swiftness yourself. Against FB its amazing, Against warrior its amazing, Against ranger its amazing, Against holo its amazing, Against necro its good. Its weak against mesmer ( mesmer doesnt really have important boons to corrupt, no stab, low number of might, fury gets quickly reapplied, regen gets reapplied too ) Its weak against thief too ( same story as mesmer ) Its straight up one of the best abilities in the game, fits necro. Has skillfull aspect. I like it. Now AT. When you thinka bout it, you before you read about anything, you need to know 1 thing. Mesmer has GARBAGE condi clear. After you accept that you realise that it has VERY different role then corrupt. In fact AT is more similar to Shake it off from warrior. Its condi clear, that can be used as something else when the clear is not needed. In cmirage vs cmirage nobody will use AT to strip boons alone. First and foremost its condi clear, only and ONLY when you are safe from condis, you think about using it to strip boons. TLDR AT is a condi cleanse thats less reliable but provides MUCH more value then most clears, it can also be used as something else when there is no condition danger. Realistically this is how condi cleanse should look like, not press button cleanse all and laught, it has more counterplay then most condiclears in the game that are used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 How about: First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it. THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"Fueki.4753" said: > How about: > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it. > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery. Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately. Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately. > > Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it. Once they dropped the base cooldown to 24 seconds, and added guaranteed slow and quickness it shot up to like 80% usuage on condition mirage. For Condition Mesmer Blink is nonnegotiable. But that's the only of the three utility slots that's like that. Regarding the remaining two; Arcane Thievery, Illusionary Ambush, Mantra of Resolve, Signet of Midnight are all fantastic choices and it really comes down to what exactly you think you'll be facing and counter comping for that. Of those four utilities, Arcane Thievery is easily the most used and the remaining third slot tends to be the one that's swapped out. The reason this thread exists is because after the last balance patch Fire Weaver is basically unkillable for a Condition Mirage with the exception of flipping a bunch of their burning stacks back at them. So Fire Weavers are getting testy about the one tool in the memser kit that can actually reliably bring them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > How about: > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it. > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery. > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy: Seeing that the Thief is designed on being absolutely anti-pvp, I don't mind. This change is not restricted to only Thief though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now