the new patch in a nutshell

[Aza.2105]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > snips

>

> you could've picked a better option for your argument, no one in their right mind is going to use hammer anymore if anyone even did. I get what you're saying but you're the one who doesn't understand. so op things get nerfed, some up things that didn't get nerfed become more attractive options. except too many of those options are still unusable because of how bad they are. they could follow up in the future with buffs to these useless things which I hope they will.

>

> > Hammer

> > - Autoattack Chain: Reduced power coefficients from 0.9/0.9/1.2 to 0.6/0.6/0.8

> > - Fierce Blow: Reduced base power coefficient from 1.8 to 0.77. Reduced power coefficient vs controlled foes from 2.16 to 1.82. Reduced weakness duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds

> > - Hammer Shock: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.7

> > - Staggering Blow: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01

> > - Backbreaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.01

> > - Earthshaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01

 

Nah, I understand very well. I'm looking at the changes objectively based upon their revamped philosophy of how skills in pvp should work. Its not my opinion. A lot of your concern is imaginary, since you nor anyone else knows exactly how all of this will play out. Also consider, no one knows how valuable CC will be in the new GW2 pvp. So its hard to say exactly were hammer will be in terms of usefulness.

[Zenix.6198]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Yeah I'm really starting to question this "CCs deal no damage" thing. It's... wrong on so many levels.

> >

> > Cutting CC skill damage by 50% would have been adequate. Having all of these skills dealing 0 damage is just weird man. Not sure it's going to feel good in application. They really need to test server this patch before release.

>

> yeah theres not much incentive to actually dodge those cc skills anymore if they do no damage and if everything is getting nerfed damage wise. so theres not much incentive to use those cc skills anymore on the majority of skills unless the cd is short like @ArthurDent said above. I think damage mitigation stacking is going to become the new meta, so tankfest inc. that said the new team has proven they have the balls to make changes so I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf that too. I don't disagree with nerfing the damage on cc skills don't get me wrong there, but these nerfs are ridiculous putting the damage on meme levels. idk man, changes.

>

 

I dont think we will see a tankfest.

The nerfs that happened to damage, mostly - at least from what I have seen - have also happened to sustain and general survivability.

 

Speaking for sword weaver for instance:

Healing has been reduced across the board (signet, traits, actual skill values) by about ~33%.

Evades on sword skills saw their CD increased by 50%.

Twist of fate saw its Cooldown increased by ~90%-

All pretty substantial nerfs ....And seeing how damage gets cut equally throughout all classes in a similar manner. This seems fine.

(FB tome 2 skills also were massively nerfed by about ~50%.)

 

So all in all, we have reduced damage AND reduced healing at a pretty similar level.

All that is effectively going to do, is increase TTK....which a lot of players have been asking for.

[Cyninja.2954]

Making changes across the entire spectrum of skills in line with their new goal (cc should not do damage) is the most sensible thing they can do.

 

Omitting any cc skills, no matter how much use they see, would create a patchwork situation where suddenly skills outperform other skills based on pure cc ability paired with damage. Which then in turn leads to subsequent re-balance necessity around those omitted skills, etc.

 

The best approach is bring EVERYTHING in line with the new goal, then balance as necessary with all cc skills being at the same baseline.

 

Not sure how this is not evident.

 

The question if cc skills should or should not do damage is a completely different issue and does not related to how much use skills see and if they should or should not get nerfed. From a pure balance perspective and workload, it is absolutely reasonable to hit ALL cc skills if that is the desired effect.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > snips

> >

> > you could've picked a better option for your argument, no one in their right mind is going to use hammer anymore if anyone even did. I get what you're saying but you're the one who doesn't understand. so op things get nerfed, some up things that didn't get nerfed become more attractive options. except too many of those options are still unusable because of how bad they are. they could follow up in the future with buffs to these useless things which I hope they will.

> >

> > > Hammer

> > > - Autoattack Chain: Reduced power coefficients from 0.9/0.9/1.2 to 0.6/0.6/0.8

> > > - Fierce Blow: Reduced base power coefficient from 1.8 to 0.77. Reduced power coefficient vs controlled foes from 2.16 to 1.82. Reduced weakness duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds

> > > - Hammer Shock: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.7

> > > - Staggering Blow: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01

> > > - Backbreaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.01

> > > - Earthshaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01

>

> Nah, I understand very well. I'm looking at the changes objectively based upon their revamped philosophy of how skills in pvp should work. Its not my opinion. A lot of your concern is imaginary, since you nor anyone else knows exactly how all of this will play out. Also consider, no one knows how valuable CC will be in the new GW2 pvp. So its hard to say exactly were hammer will be in terms of usefulness.

 

Dude, people who have been around since year 1 with like 20,000 games under their belt, have a pretty strong intuitive sense of how things are going to play out.

 

All of the things @"Stand The Wall.6987" said are pretty spot on concerns and I couldn't agree more. About 24 hours in after sitting and thinking over these changes a bit more, I'm beginning to get pretty concerned myself with this new universal system of no damage CCs. The lowered damage output, OK, that needed to happen. Most of the other mechanical changes, sure, I'm down to try new things. But no damage CCs? Man there is actually so much wrong with that, with how it's going to shape play dynamic and build structures, that I don't even have time right now to go into all of the problems that this is clearly going to create. These things aren't difficult to figure out. Let me give you a few examples of _not difficult to figure out:_

 

1. Why would you even touch a Warrior Hammer after this patch? It will only have 3 attacks on the entire kit that even deals damage, and they are really low damage. What the hell? I mean... these changes are as good as quite literally "deleting warrior hammer". There won't even be a way to chain some damage combo after landing the CCs. No, it will be a weapon with slow CCs that don't hit, that deals no damage. It won't even be viable for memeing in unraked against silver opponents. The warrior hammer will actually be useless completely 100%. A legend division player will not be able to kill a silver 3 opponent with a warrior using a hammer, because it has no damage output whatsoever. Really stop and think about this. It isn't hard to figure out. And then we're talking what these changes will do to even Strength Spellbreaker or any Warrior build for that matter at all. Everything in War is like CC based man. Not only is War getting massive chops to damage all over the place, but just about every other attack it can land is a CC that will not deal damage. If War wants to be able to deal damage after this patch, it's going to be looking at only: Greatsword/Axes/Shield/Rifle end of story. The other weapon sets are already not so viable or have too many CCs on the list that now deal no damage. And it won't be able to run sustain node hold builds either, because of April Fools like changes "I seriously wondered if some of this stuff was an early April Fools joke" like Balanced Stance and Defy Pain going on 300s CDs. 300 second CDs? What the hell man? That's a 5 minute cool down. Is this serious for real? Ok so you get to use passive Defy Pain once or maybe twice in a match? Just rework the skills entirely if you're going to throw 300s CD at them. <- That right there is the type of stuff that people are really really really concerne with. I mean... if you know this game at all, why would you not be? Those types of changes actually truly made me sit there for real not even trolling, have to seriously ask myself: "Is Arenanet trying to... actively destroy this game mode?"

2. Dragonhunter losing damage on Deflecting Shot. So they just recently buff Deflecting Shot to try and help DH with viability, but now they are turning its damage down to 0. What? This makes Longbow completely useless on DH. And no don't you even dare toss some "You don't know how it will pan out" garbage into this. If you've played this game at all and ever tried a DH, you'd VERY CLEARLY be able to see that DH longbow will be dead as a warrior hammer after this patch. the only damage it will be able to land practically, is #1 lb spam and true shot. #4 and #5 any decent player at all always dodges. And then you're talking Dragon's Maw 0 damage what? Just what? Why would you chain a bunch of CC that deals no damage, when you could just select other skills that grant a ton more of personal sustain or that deal actual damage? <- This is what @"Stand The Wall.6987" was talking about. If you can't figure out the very obvious cause & effect of a light to no CC bunker meta after these changes, I guess you'll have to see it to believe it.

 

^ That's just 2 examples alright? So what people will do is recognize that DAMAGE is still required to get stuff done. So you won't be able to run cool CC builds because they will actually be half the damage or less of a build that is only running say 1 CC. I want you to really think about this for a moment, from the standpoint of how you know that this game already works, and with good judgement of what is going to happen after this patch hits. I could understand instant CCs being 0 damage, but things with animations? Nah man, it's just a bad idea and everyone will see why when this released:

 

1. Who is going to win the 1v1 on a side node? -> Hammer War goes against Greatsword Axe/Axe Berserker who brings only Bull's Charge to set up for Hundred Blades and Axe 5 spins? Keep in mind War won't have any options for sustain play after this patch.

2. Who is going to win the 1v1 on a side node? -> Core Guardian Burst with only a few soft CCs, everything he has deals A LOT of damage goes against a Longbow DH?

3. ect ect

 

I believe @"Stand The Wall.6987" is correct. We're gonna be looking at a reeeeeal weird meta where people will avoid CC skills outside of bringing maybe 1 or 2 at the most. People will begin to build for less CC so there is actual damage output. The biggest flaw I see in this particular aspect of this patch theory, is that Arenanet nerfed damage intra-class wide and then nerfed heal intra-class wide to match the standard of damage. But it doesn't look like they considered the COMPLETE LOSS IN DAMAGE ON CC SKILLS while dong so. I think the new meta will be more sustain than most people are realizing due to this. I want you to imagine for a moment, right now in our current meta, the damage output of a good plat 2 Spellbreaker. Imagine it. Now imagine if right now a patch hit that turned all of his CC skills into 0 damage attacks. My good bro, it would lose about 40% of its damage output. It just wouldn't be able to find the kill opportunity to seriously threaten killing you. Now imagine your own class having the same treatment, all of your CCs no longer deal damage. So... that's a lot of damage loss man, especially in conjunction to the hard nerfs to every other attack. **I fear the game is going to turn into a lot of forced auto 1 spamming to maintain damage output when you don't want to use CCs, and that is going to feel bad man.**

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, a simple -50% damage to all CC skills in the game, would have been adequate.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Making changes across the entire spectrum of skills in line with their new goal (cc should not do damage) is the most sensible thing they can do.

>

> Omitting any cc skills, no matter how much use they see, would create a patchwork situation where suddenly skills outperform other skills based on pure cc ability paired with damage. Which then in turn leads to subsequent re-balance necessity around those omitted skills, etc.

>

> The best approach is bring EVERYTHING in line with the new goal, then balance as necessary with all cc skills being at the same baseline.

>

> Not sure how this is not evident.

>

> The question if cc skills should or should not do damage is a completely different issue and does not related to how much use skills see and if they should or should not get nerfed. From a pure balance perspective and workload, it is absolutely reasonable to hit ALL cc skills if that is the desired effect.

 

But how is it "sensible"?

 

I actually want to hear someone "sensibly" explain to me how these mechanics are going to pan out. Like think about the combat dynamic, how it will flow, and how this is going to work. Not trolling, being serious. I don't believe people with your opinion are considering this 0 damage CC stuff very reasonably. I think with short thoughts it sounds wonderful, but when you really sit down and start thinking about this sensibly, this is going to have some very weird an awkward effects on the play dynamic. Things are going to be a lot more sustain than everyone is currently recognizing, because of CCs dealing no damage. there are certain classes that cannot avoid having a bunch of CCs that don't deal damage. And as I've pointed out in my previous response, this is going to create a lot of auto 1 spam play to maintain damage output in certain situations, which is just going to be.... dull play.

[SPESHAL.9106]

In a nutshell, they pretty much admitted that everything they did in PoF was seriously off and the patches for the past few years haven't really fixed things.

 

It's validation for many players who called for similar changes long ago, but they kept on band-aiding things and ran off so many players.

 

The problem with these changes is that they really didn't address balance. They just addressed problems with game damage/cc/cooldowns as a whole. In fact, with some professions, they enhanced the weaknesses while neutering their strengths. Whether it's "right" overall or not, these kind of changes ALWAYS result in unhappy players that quit.

 

If it's good for the long-term, we'll see. It would have been much better though for them to actually introduce new abilities/skills/utilities/runes/etc. Instead of just making across the board removals/nerfs/etc. It doesn't make anyone excited to LOSE access to abilities/runes/etc without anything given back in return.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

@"Stand The Wall.6987"

 

I can understand the concerns you have, I've been seeing them from people in Discord that I play with as well. Sure there are concerns with the patch, such as condi DE not being touched so it will likely become *so much more* of a pest and certain weapons, traits, skills and some entire builds will likely have a hard fall off in use when this patch hits.

 

However for me personally this patch didn't do anything I didn't expect to happen, which is to say that I expected it to make things **extremely** chaotic and it will likely be a shitshow ingame for a good span of time afterwards. I wanted that to happen...because it needed to happen. ANet needed to be the kid with a bat that walks into the store that sells fine china and just...starts swinging.

 

These aren't even the fully complete changes, as they have said, and more will be coming along based upon feedback to what we see, along with the fact that they will be, hopefully, increasing their release cadence going forward for balance issues and changes. This patch was always going to do what it seems like it is doing, its meant to create a base from which to work from going forward. The feedback they get on this patch, once it goes live, will more heavily influence the direction the game takes and how skills will be altered going forward. Some of the damage changes to some CC skills might not stay the same, the reworks might also see additional changes over time.

 

What this has shown, even if people are concerned, is that Cal has the cajones to drop a patch like this knowing that some big changes need to happen for balance and they need to break some things to do it. ANet up until this point has been, sure, breaking things so to speak, but they have been doing it in a different way. They "broke" things in the sense that they thought the approach was to make everything else similarly too strong to bring it up to par with what was considered too strong. Thats how we got the power creep that many have been so adamantly campaigning to get toned down.

 

Sure, some things have been missed from what we know so far, maybe that will change as they are using this as an opportunity to get feedback. Who knows how much effect that might have but the opportunity is there, just make it constructive...not insulting.

 

This patch was never going to be nor intended to be the patch that fixes things. It was meant to shift the direction of balance and put it on a different path so that it can be better handled in the future. Just the fact that they are changing it so that PvP weapon damage will now always use the **midpoint* of its damage range rather than be random eludes to that. It creates an environment where they can more easily discern and control how damage numbers are affecting gameplay and adjust as necessary where they need to. More consistent numbers means better information to base changes on. It also removes the chance that you'll deal the least amount of damage possible with your weapon, which means *technically* there was a slight increase in minimum damage any given weapon attack is capable of achieving.

 

We'll see what happens when the patch goes live, and if things might change from this point until then based on feedback given.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Nah, I understand very well. I'm looking at the changes objectively based upon their revamped philosophy of how skills in pvp should work. Its not my opinion. A lot of your concern is imaginary, since you nor anyone else knows exactly how all of this will play out. Also consider, no one knows how valuable CC will be in the new GW2 pvp. So its hard to say exactly were hammer will be in terms of usefulness.

 

theres nothing complicated in looking at hammer or other skills that weren't used at all, seeing their damage taken away with no other changes or very minor ones, and theorizing that they will be even more sub par. its basic math.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> snips

 

you're right sustain was nerfed, but classes will rely on other forms of defense which weren't touched and ttk will go up drastically. things like mobility, damage mitigation through - damage mods or weakness, soft cc, and regenerative traits and skills which imo even tho they were nerfed will still be strong combined with these other things that weren't nerfed. again ofc this is speculation and I hope i'm wrong.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> snips

 

you're missing the point, but to be fair I wasn't exactly clear. this across the board damage nerf isn't what i'm worried about, I agree with it actually. i'm just worried that they won't follow up post nerf and we will be stuck with the same 5 utility/ 3 weapon/ 4 trait line choices that has plagued this game since launch. with this huge patch I think there has been some faith restored, and that they definitely are capable of following up. I just want to remind anyone listening that there are too many useless things in this game and its really bad for the games health imo.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > Nah, I understand very well. I'm looking at the changes objectively based upon their revamped philosophy of how skills in pvp should work. Its not my opinion. A lot of your concern is imaginary, since you nor anyone else knows exactly how all of this will play out. Also consider, no one knows how valuable CC will be in the new GW2 pvp. So its hard to say exactly were hammer will be in terms of usefulness.

>

> theres nothing complicated in looking at hammer or other skills that weren't used at all, seeing their damage taken away with no other changes or very minor ones, and theorizing that they will be even more sub par. its basic math.

 

Its complicated when you believe you know everything. And just so you know, most gw1 cc did not do damage. I'm sure you or someone else will say but this gw2. Yep, but it seems that they are drawing balance philosophy from gw1. Which was leagues better than what we have ever had here.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Making changes across the entire spectrum of skills in line with their new goal (cc should not do damage) is the most sensible thing they can do.

> >

> > Omitting any cc skills, no matter how much use they see, would create a patchwork situation where suddenly skills outperform other skills based on pure cc ability paired with damage. Which then in turn leads to subsequent re-balance necessity around those omitted skills, etc.

> >

> > The best approach is bring EVERYTHING in line with the new goal, then balance as necessary with all cc skills being at the same baseline.

> >

> > Not sure how this is not evident.

> >

> > The question if cc skills should or should not do damage is a completely different issue and does not related to how much use skills see and if they should or should not get nerfed. From a pure balance perspective and workload, it is absolutely reasonable to hit ALL cc skills if that is the desired effect.

>

> But how is it "sensible"?

>

> I actually want to hear someone "sensibly" explain to me how these mechanics are going to pan out. Like think about the combat dynamic, how it will flow, and how this is going to work. Not trolling, being serious. I don't believe people with your opinion are considering this 0 damage CC stuff very reasonably. I think with short thoughts it sounds wonderful, but when you really sit down and start thinking about this sensibly, this is going to have some very weird an awkward effects on the play dynamic. Things are going to be a lot more sustain than everyone is currently recognizing, because of CCs dealing no damage. there are certain classes that cannot avoid having a bunch of CCs that don't deal damage. And as I've pointed out in my previous response, this is going to create a lot of auto 1 spam play to maintain damage output in certain situations, which is just going to be.... dull play.

 

It's sensible since it's the most reasonable approach workload wise and with desire to create a baseline. That's all one can do with this amount of variables at play.

 

Will it be better? We don't know.

Will it work the way it is designed? We don't know.

Will they revert this approach? We don't know.

 

Does it makes sense to create a new baseline first? Absolutely.

 

You are already deep in the entire "balance" aspect when the core foundation is not even in place. That's the perfect recipe for a patchwork approach.

 

We are past the point of arguing should or shouldn't cc skills do damage. That decision has been made. We are currently in the process of: how does implementing this in the best, most efficient way look like.

 

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > snips

>

> you're missing the point, but to be fair I wasn't exactly clear. this across the board damage nerf isn't what i'm worried about, I agree with it actually. i'm just worried that they won't follow up post nerf and we will be stuck with the same 5 utility/ 3 weapon/ 4 trait line choices that has plagued this game since launch. with this huge patch I think there has been some faith restored, and that they definitely are capable of following up. I just want to remind anyone listening that there are too many useless things in this game and its really bad for the games health imo.

 

Sure, that's possible and might happen. But if they do not anticipate or plan for additional rounds of balancing, we would be stuck in such a situation anyway, only with a lot more patchwork, not in line skills and other issues.

 

It is impossible to predict the entire outcome and synergy of all skills, classes, builds, etc. at this point in time. The only thing possible is:

- build around a desired foundation

- see how that works out

- balance and adjust as needed

- abandon entirely if it absolutely does not work

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Its complicated when you believe you know everything. And just so you know, most gw1 cc did not do damage. I'm sure you or someone else will say but this gw2. Yep, but it seems that they are drawing balance philosophy from gw1. Which was leagues better than what we have ever had here.

>

>

 

nice way to end a conversation. I don't claim to know everything but I have an active imagination backed up by experience which leads me to plausible theories (I hope).

[Aza.2105]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > Its complicated when you believe you know everything. And just so you know, most gw1 cc did not do damage. I'm sure you or someone else will say but this gw2. Yep, but it seems that they are drawing balance philosophy from gw1. Which was leagues better than what we have ever had here.

> >

> >

>

> nice way to end a conversation. I don't claim to know everything but I have an active imagination backed up by experience which leads me to plausible theories (I hope).

 

Yes but they are just theories. How about wait and see before jumping the gun?

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > snips

>

> you're right sustain was nerfed, but classes will rely on other forms of defense which weren't touched and ttk will go up drastically. things like mobility, damage mitigation through - damage mods or weakness, soft cc, and regenerative traits and skills which imo even tho they were nerfed will still be strong combined with these other things that weren't nerfed. again ofc this is speculation and I hope i'm wrong.

 

TTK will go up...but people wanted it to go up. That doesn't mean the pace of the gameplay changes. Short TTK =/= fast paced gameplay.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Yes but they are just theories. How about wait and see before jumping the gun?

 

if you don't want to participate then don't participate. also the thing about tankfest inc is a theory but things like warrior hammer and other associated skills no one uses being an even worse choice isn't a theory.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > Yes but they are just theories. How about wait and see before jumping the gun?

>

> if you don't want to participate then don't participate. also the thing about tankfest inc is a theory but things like warrior hammer and other associated skills no one uses being an even worse choice isn't a theory.

 

Its still a theory, based upon how the game currently plays now. The reason why warrior hammer isn't being used is because you can't snowball a target. The current way the game plays is just stacking might, then melting a target with high damage skills. Hammer has never done that. But if their philosophy is to be believed:

 

**_"We want cooldowns to be felt. Longer cooldowns promote more calculated usage of skills; if skills are used poorly it should create an opportunity for the enemy to push their advantage. Shorter durations of high impact buffs have a similar effect. Skillful timing is going to be rewarded, and poor usage is going to be exploitable by enemies. In some cases, it’s still going to make sense to have a longer duration attached to a longer cooldown, but most of the time we’re looking at shorter durations for things like stability, protection, quickness, high might stacks, among others."_**

 

Cool downs are longer, which means interrupting a enemies attacks has become more important than it was before. In other words, a weapon like hammer becomes more rewarding. The focus is shifting from 100-0 a target in a few seconds into actually punishing your opponents movements. The design of hammer has always been a GROUP weapon, just like it was in the original game. Its not made for side noding, but for team fights. A hammer warriors job would be to disrupt the assigned target for the team to either focus down or disrupt a target so that the team bursts down another target.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Making changes across the entire spectrum of skills in line with their new goal (cc should not do damage) is the most sensible thing they can do.

> > >

> > > Omitting any cc skills, no matter how much use they see, would create a patchwork situation where suddenly skills outperform other skills based on pure cc ability paired with damage. Which then in turn leads to subsequent re-balance necessity around those omitted skills, etc.

> > >

> > > The best approach is bring EVERYTHING in line with the new goal, then balance as necessary with all cc skills being at the same baseline.

> > >

> > > Not sure how this is not evident.

> > >

> > > The question if cc skills should or should not do damage is a completely different issue and does not related to how much use skills see and if they should or should not get nerfed. From a pure balance perspective and workload, it is absolutely reasonable to hit ALL cc skills if that is the desired effect.

> >

> > But how is it "sensible"?

> >

> > I actually want to hear someone "sensibly" explain to me how these mechanics are going to pan out. Like think about the combat dynamic, how it will flow, and how this is going to work. Not trolling, being serious. I don't believe people with your opinion are considering this 0 damage CC stuff very reasonably. I think with short thoughts it sounds wonderful, but when you really sit down and start thinking about this sensibly, this is going to have some very weird an awkward effects on the play dynamic. Things are going to be a lot more sustain than everyone is currently recognizing, because of CCs dealing no damage. there are certain classes that cannot avoid having a bunch of CCs that don't deal damage. And as I've pointed out in my previous response, this is going to create a lot of auto 1 spam play to maintain damage output in certain situations, which is just going to be.... dull play.

>

> It's sensible since it's the most reasonable approach workload wise and with desire to create a baseline. That's all one can do with this amount of variables at play.

>

> Will it be better? We don't know.

> Will it work the way it is designed? We don't know.

> Will they revert this approach? We don't know.

>

> Does it makes sense to create a new baseline first? Absolutely.

>

> You are already deep in the entire "balance" aspect when the core foundation is not even in place. That's the perfect recipe for a patchwork approach.

>

> We are past the point of arguing should or shouldn't cc skills do damage. That decision has been made. We are currently in the process of: how does implementing this in the best, most efficient way look like.

>

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > snips

> >

> > you're missing the point, but to be fair I wasn't exactly clear. this across the board damage nerf isn't what i'm worried about, I agree with it actually. i'm just worried that they won't follow up post nerf and we will be stuck with the same 5 utility/ 3 weapon/ 4 trait line choices that has plagued this game since launch. with this huge patch I think there has been some faith restored, and that they definitely are capable of following up. I just want to remind anyone listening that there are too many useless things in this game and its really bad for the games health imo.

>

> Sure, that's possible and might happen. But if they do not anticipate or plan for additional rounds of balancing, we would be stuck in such a situation anyway, only with a lot more patchwork, not in line skills and other issues.

>

> It is impossible to predict the entire outcome and synergy of all skills, classes, builds, etc. at this point in time. The only thing possible is:

> - build around a desired foundation

> - see how that works out

> - balance and adjust as needed

> - abandon entirely if it absolutely does not work

 

You and I are of a similar mindset it seems. I had been saying about this patch from the beginning when we even heard about it that it wasn't going to be some fix all and that it would be a chaotic maelstrom. In fact this patch did just about everything I expected.

 

I said it would be chaotic as fuck. √

I said plenty of builds and skills were going to get broken. √

I said people were going to rage hardcore at the changes. √

I said the patch was never going to be a one fix for anything. √

I said the patch was going to be a stepping stone to future changes. √

 

The entire point of this patch was meant to be a shift in a different direction. We don't know yet how it will play out, and how it plays out will heavily depend on feedback given as well as the speed at which future incremental patches will be released to address the changes being made here within the new dynamic they have established.

 

ANet **needed** to establish something different as a new baseline to build from, otherwise we were only ever going to remain in the same vicious circle we have been in for **years**. You quite literally cannot do that without implementing a patch that tips everyone's frosted mini-wheats off the kitchen counter.

 

I will agree, viewing this from a perspective only thinking about the **short term**, yeah, it looks horrible. However viewing it from a perspective about the **long term** it is actually what needed to happen. This is all dependent on how ANet approaches balance release cadence going forward, as well as the players **understanding** that some eggs need to be broken at this point to get their desired result. Giving feedback now, and after this patch hits will be more important than ever and they are **looking** for it. That is the whole **point** of it.

 

Unfortunately ANet does not have a Public Test Server for these to be implemented on first for a long term testing period, it is apparently not within their technical capabilities to do so (I have directly asked a Dev about this before and that was the answer). If people accept that, as unfortunate as it is and as probably undesired as it might be, then this is the only way the changes we want to happen will get done.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> snips

 

except there are better options then taking a zero damage weapon and being effectively useless on side nodes where war shines. anyway lets not zero in on war ham, good example as it may be.

[Thorstienn.1642]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > Yes but they are just theories. How about wait and see before jumping the gun?

> >

> > if you don't want to participate then don't participate. also the thing about tankfest inc is a theory but things like warrior hammer and other associated skills no one uses being an even worse choice isn't a theory.

>

> Its still a theory, based upon how the game currently plays now. The reason why warrior hammer isn't being used is because you can't snowball a target. The current way the game plays is just stacking might, then melting a target with high damage skills. Hammer has never done that. But if their philosophy is to be believed:

>

> **_"We want cooldowns to be felt. Longer cooldowns promote more calculated usage of skills; if skills are used poorly it should create an opportunity for the enemy to push their advantage. Shorter durations of high impact buffs have a similar effect. Skillful timing is going to be rewarded, and poor usage is going to be exploitable by enemies. In some cases, it’s still going to make sense to have a longer duration attached to a longer cooldown, but most of the time we’re looking at shorter durations for things like stability, protection, quickness, high might stacks, among others."_**

>

> Cool downs are longer, which means interrupting a enemies attacks has become more important than it was before. In other words, a weapon like hammer becomes more rewarding. The focus is shifting from 100-0 a target in a few seconds into actually punishing your opponents movements. The design of hammer has always been a GROUP weapon, just like it was in the original game. Its not made for side noding, but for team fights. A hammer warriors job would be to disrupt the assigned target for the team to either focus down or disrupt a target so that the team bursts down another target.

 

Very good points on Hammer. I have often run a Hammer + Greatsword/mace shield build, and it's not for dueling etc, ita full team support. Sure, after the patch its will cause even less damage (especially so with nace shield variant), but it will still lock the enemy down hard, and allow my team to obliterate them.

 

Now I dont love the change of all being 0, but I understand it for the foundation they want to build from: clearer "rulesets, less damage".

 

However! I think as is often the case, they are missing some of the "core" issues. A cc build (hammer warrior) isn't dangerous due to damage, it's dangerous because CC can be chained locking an opponent down ALLOWING them/their team to cause damage, and the changes want stop that, in fact they will probably make it more effective with longer CDs on utilities, less stab etc.

 

In saying that, I like the direction overall, and look forward to the 1st patch-post-this-patch to see how they build everything back up.

 

Edit: I hope they change the names of some of these skills though: backbreaker!?

[Exedore.6320]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > snips

>

> except there are better options then taking a zero damage weapon and being effectively useless on side nodes where war shines. anyway lets not zero in on war ham, good example as it may be.

You're assuming the roles and game flow will remain the same.

 

For example, when the game came out, decap engineer was a huge thing. It wasn't trying to kill (though it could over time), but it could decap and hold nodes. I welcome more variety like that.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> You're assuming the roles and game flow will remain the same.

>

> For example, when the game came out, decap engineer was a huge thing. It wasn't trying to kill (though it could over time), but it could decap and hold nodes. I welcome more variety like that.

 

no, i'm not.

 

[rng.1024]

Let me get this straight:

 

Wild Blow which has an untraited 20 sec cooldown, gives 8 sec fury, always crits, knocks people off node and lengthens your already limited berserk mode. Oh yeah 0 dmg.

 

Is somehow now less viable because

 

Bull's Charge which has am untraited 30 second cd, knocks down on the spot for the same duration (including recovery time) and has a 1 1/4s evade? Oh yeah 0 dmg.

 

If you took Wild Blow over Bull's charge for the evade uptime, I'm sorry but this patch didn't ruin that for you. After the patch Wild Blow will be better in every way besides having that invuln frame.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> snips

 

…

it has nothing to do with specific skills and everything to do with useless things getting destroyed.

[rng.1024]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > snips

>

> …

> it has nothing to do with specific skills and everything to do with useless things getting destroyed.

 

Lol so you feel Bull's Charge already was a useless skill? Alright alright, but don't blame it on the patch then. All cc-skills gpt brought up to par with this change, and all cc-skills suffered the dmg loss.

 

Best I can tell your issue is with skills not being able to do damage and cc at the same time anymore, which is a valid opinion ^^

 

Or maybe it's just an unfortunate example, since the "useless" skill now is actually more viable than the previous meta-option.