Shadow.1345 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > It is more than just subjective definitions, it is scientific thinking based on logic and analysis. But yes as expected you just devalue it without doing any effort of trying to understand what i wrote. It is a simple FACT that there are different types/lvls of passives in the game having different skill ceiling and different abilities of carrying the player. Even if it is more than just a subjective definition it is still a subjective definition. I didn't devalue your categorization, I pointed out how communication works between people but you took it as a personal attack. I even thanked you for the reply and then gave you some advice on how to better communicate your ideas because you have expressed frustration about people not understanding you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senqu.8054 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > as I and others have stated it gives the advantage of not having to interrupt skill casts to dodge interrupts. Even Daredevil with it's 150 endurance doesn't get that advantage. > True a Daredevil can’t do that. He only has skills that evade and do dmg plus 3 evades. You talk so much and show us with every sentence that you don’t understand a single thing about this class or even this game. People like you are the problem that this game came to the state it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: > Nerfing conditions nerfs Core, Chrono and Mirage, not just Mirage. Not if adjustments are focused on ambushes. > Nerfing or removing IH nerfs power too. Which is why IH should not be touched, contrary to the popular misguided claim that "IH is the problem." If anything, IH should be made the grandmaster minor trait for normalized balancing of all mirage builds. Either way, the other grandmaster major traits should be replaced with useful alternatives. > Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. But it doesn't need to be gutted. Damage simply needs to be moved away from clone ambushes (and autos) over to the player's direct attacks and/or shatters. Damage is still preserved in both game modes. It is simply applied in a more active, less passive manner. Several people have been proposing this type of change for a very long time to no avail. > Also with the philosophy of not changing the functionality of skills across modes I think reducing endurance is the best way to fix the problem of Mirage Cloak. IH doesn't have a CD so adding one changes the functionality of the trait. I must disagree that reducing endurance (in this case, halving the endurance bar) is consistent with the philosophy of not changing the functionality of skills across modes. The two-dodge endurance bar has been the only constant across all builds and game modes since the beginning (except on Daredevil). Dodging is even a hallmark of GW2 versus similar games. To now disrupt that constant--for any class--eight years into the game's life cycle, is probably the most extreme change ever made. By altering such a basic and fundamental aspect of the way this game is played, it surpasses any complete rework of a given spec mechanic, any given e-spec "trade off", etc. Going from having up to two dodges available at any time in PvE, particularly on a specialization whose design revolves around deriving both its offense and defense from dodging, to having only one in competitive modes, is utterly jarring. It's an absolute upset to the combat rhythm between modes. It is equally problematic to veteran muscle memory as to newcomers who start off in PvE and embark on competitive. It is, frankly, the worst change in the history of this game, as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > evade, > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > blink > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > and access to stealth > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Honestly the loss of Deadshot+Wanderer amulets and all the expertise boosting runes is probably hurting Mirage more than the loss of the second dodge roll. That right there was an effective 50% damage nerf specifically to mirage since Mirage was really the only build using those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > evade, > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > blink > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > and access to stealth > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. How about every new spec gets 1 dodge and its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > evade, > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > blink > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > and access to stealth > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > evade, > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > blink > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > > > evade, > > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > > > blink > > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. > > Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. How many similar skills but way better in other professions do you want me to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > > > > > evade, > > > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > > > > > blink > > > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > > > > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. > > > > Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. > > How many similar skills but way better in other professions do you want me to say? You can name as many as you like, but ultimately it would be a flawed thing to do. You can easily grab skills that are similar for comparison while ignoring the rest of each classes tool kits. The entire tool kit and what each class has access to explains why two similar skills perform better or worse than each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. > But it doesn't need to be gutted. Damage simply needs to be moved away from clone ambushes (and autos) over to the player's direct attacks and/or shatters. That's what gutting means. @"Aza.2105" don't bother. These guys will say anything and beg for any nerf to anything else just to not lose their precious SpamCloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > > > evade, > > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > > > blink > > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. > > Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. Literally every class in the game has access to retaliation through either weapon skills, utility skills, or traits. Literally every single one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > > > > > evade, > > > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > > > > > blink > > > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > > > > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. > > > > Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. > > Literally every class in the game has access to retaliation through either weapon skills, utility skills, or traits. Literally every single one. Ele nor thief really have access to it. Eles is random, thief's access is very conditional and it lasts for 5 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Literally every class in the game has access to retaliation through either weapon skills, utility skills, or traits. Literally every single one. Even with all of that how does that absolve you of the stupidity of attacking things with retaliation on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. > > But it doesn't need to be gutted. Damage simply needs to be moved away from clone ambushes (and autos) over to the player's direct attacks and/or shatters. > > That's what gutting means. Does it? Mind linking me a definition of "gut" that means taking something from one place and moving it elsewhere? You know, as opposed to simply removing it? To use your own response to Bravan above: > @"Shadow.1345" said: > Well thank you for ~~that long explanation for~~ your own personal definition of ~~active/passive~~ _"gut"_. It is, however, just your own personal definition. Words do have definitions, though, and if you expect people to not take words at their generally agreed upon definitions and just your own personal definition instead you're going to find trouble communicating your ideas. ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ EDIT: Anyway, Shadow, since you are confident that Mirage is perfectly fine with a 50 endurance cap--a view you are perfectly entitled to--would you be so kind as to demonstrate it by putting together some in-game evidence? If you're onto something that works, while others are just being myopic, more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > > Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. > > > But it doesn't need to be gutted. Damage simply needs to be moved away from clone ambushes (and autos) over to the player's direct attacks and/or shatters. > > > > That's what gutting means. > > Does it? Mind linking me a definition of "gut" that means taking something from one place and moving it elsewhere? You know, as opposed to simply removing it? > > To use your own response to Bravan above: > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > Well thank you for ~~that long explanation for~~ your own personal definition of ~~active/passive~~ _"gut"_. It is, however, just your own personal definition. Words do have definitions, though, and if you expect people to not take words at their generally agreed upon definitions and just your own personal definition instead you're going to find trouble communicating your ideas. > > ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ Touche. > > EDIT: Anyway, Shadow, since you are confident that Mirage is perfectly fine with a 50 endurance cap--a view you are perfectly entitled to--would you be so kind as to demonstrate it by putting together some in-game evidence? If you're onto something that works, while others are just being myopic, more power to you. Sure, I don't even need to record it because I am terrible with that stuff anyways. Misha has been running an S/T - A/P build on their stream. I've tried running it a bit myself and it's not that bad. With damage nerfed you're not near as in danger as the doomsayers like to make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonoly.4352 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Mirage is sort of workable with the correct build and you can face tank a bit more due to the damage nerf, but you do spend an awful lot of time simply running around waiting for not just cool downs but also endurance before engaging again - energy sigils a must of course. It doesn't feel very competitive at all and it's actually quite easy to focus down a Mirage that doesn't have a blink spot to exploit. They are delicious Thief food too. The utility of Mirage Cloak itself is a bit redundant now too as you'll need to use that one dodge for evading key big damage attacks anyway, so instances when you can dodge through a stun or actively use an ambush attack are rare. At that point, Mirage itself feels a bit redundant as a concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > > > Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. > > > > But it doesn't need to be gutted. Damage simply needs to be moved away from clone ambushes (and autos) over to the player's direct attacks and/or shatters. > > > > > > That's what gutting means. > > > > Does it? Mind linking me a definition of "gut" that means taking something from one place and moving it elsewhere? You know, as opposed to simply removing it? > > > > To use your own response to Bravan above: > > > > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > Well thank you for ~~that long explanation for~~ your own personal definition of ~~active/passive~~ _"gut"_. It is, however, just your own personal definition. Words do have definitions, though, and if you expect people to not take words at their generally agreed upon definitions and just your own personal definition instead you're going to find trouble communicating your ideas. > > > > ‾\_(ツ)_/‾ > > Touche. > > > > EDIT: Anyway, Shadow, since you are confident that Mirage is perfectly fine with a 50 endurance cap--a view you are perfectly entitled to--would you be so kind as to demonstrate it by putting together some in-game evidence? If you're onto something that works, while others are just being myopic, more power to you. > > Sure, I don't even need to record it because I am terrible with that stuff anyways. Misha has been running an S/T - A/P build on their stream. I've tried running it a bit myself and it's not that bad. With damage nerfed you're not near as in danger as the doomsayers like to make it out to be. > > > > is this what balance is? one of the best mirages int he game can win against randoms with sliver of health so mirage is fine. dont mind the fact that necro propably didnt even know what his skills do and just mush them randomly ( like i did ) Immagine if this sort of logic applies to other games lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: Linking stream of the best mesmer in the game and dont bother to actually see the struggle? Good job :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. Its been a toxic class since day 1. That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, > > > > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds > > > > > > > > > > > > > evade, > > > > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through) > > > > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W > > > > > > > > > > > > > blink > > > > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime > > > > > > > > > > > > > and access to stealth > > > > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones. > > > > > > > > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead. > > > > > > Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it. > > > > How many similar skills but way better in other professions do you want me to say? > > You can name as many as you like, but ultimately it would be a flawed thing to do. You can easily grab skills that are similar for comparison while ignoring the rest of each classes tool kits. The entire tool kit and what each class has access to explains why two similar skills perform better or worse than each other. That would be a good excuse if the rest of the tool kits weren't trash too. Sword as a weapon is only good for the ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. If you are not going to take 1 dodge bar away in every game mode, i think it best to alter a particular skill in this game mode, not the entire game design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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