SeikeNz.3526 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 give the dodge back, put 10-15s cd on IH and this will be way more fair, dodge is a game design and mechanic you can't just remove it and expect to be ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Or just remove damaging condis from IH in PvP, give it non damaging condis for covers and utility, while increasing condi shatters but limiting it to only Mind Wrack and Cry of Confusion. This fixes both player and clone interaction and makes shatters the primary damage source again. Also things like Split Surge, or Mirage Leap doesn't require a 10-15s cd. Neither of them are powerful enough to warrant it when already spending an evasion to be offensive for a relatively mediocre spike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Is that made to trigger me again? xD I explained several times why IH is not the issue and why ICD on dodgetraits are completely nonsense... i rly should start to make a copy of my own posts on my desktop so i can copy paste every reply i ever did to senseless balance suggestion in 1s. Makes sense when no one reading forums and check if someone already wrote the same bulls... before and already got explained why wrong before doing another bulls... post. When i have to write the same kitten to each single person, means over and over again... Aren't you even a Mesmer main? How can you be so clueless about the elite mechanic of your main class (not the first time i ask myself that, but i'm still surprised how low the classknowledge even from most main Mesmer is)? Goshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh But yes ofc the one dodge change is completely nonsense too, we agree to that at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Crunch.7058 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 What needs to be done: * Give Mirage it's 2 dodges back * Drastically lower Condi dmg from clone ambushes/autoattacks and adjust the Mesmer's own ambush attack, leave the condi's from clones there though to punish players that just simply count "stacks" (after all it's part of the "trickster" motif of mesmer) * Remove Superspeed from Mirage Cloak, make Mirage Cloak slow the mesmer to walking speed while it is in effect. A powerful dodge for the inability to go anywhere or move out of things (**THIS** should be Mirage's tradeback) * Make IH into the new grandmaster minor trait * Make a new Grandmaster trait to replace the shift of IH from Grandmaster to minor trait, so there is actually a choice * ~~Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process~~ Edited: Was mistaken on one of the mechanics in the way Mirage Cloak works. Disregard this suggestion. * Remove vigor from Nomad's Endurance minor trait and replace it with something else, something that would preferably be of benefit to both power and condi ....not just condi * Lower cooldown on Jaunt charges, or add back the 3rd charge to the PvP/WvW skill split, but not both. (this should be the Mirage's main way of compensating for loss of mobility from dodge as it forces the quick decision of using a valuable dodge versus using a valuable teleport skill) * Adjust baseline endurance regen if needed after the listed changes Band-Aid fixes that would have been a billion times better than the BS you did Anet: * Reduce baseline endurance regen * Reduce number of active clones from 3 to 2 The one dodge in PvP/WvW, but two dodges in PvE, is the WORST skill split you have ever done Anet! In one fell swoop you butchered defense, offense, and mobility while causing the Mirage specialization to behave completely different in PvP/WvW than it does in PvE. This on top of all the other changes you made across Mesmer traits and weapon skills. Might as well delete Mirage from Mesmer at this point and make it into an entirely new stand-alone profession. It is THAT bad!!! WTH were you thinking?! It's preferable to play core or chrono at this point. At least they are more consistent. And don't get me started on how you broke Chrono.... if you want to actually know how the changes to IP and the new shatters are being received then take a look over at the mesmer sub-forum :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Is that made to trigger me again? xD > > I explained several times why IH is not the issue and why ICD on dodgetraits are completely nonsense... i rly should start to make a copy of my own posts on my desktop so i can copy paste every reply i ever did to senseless balance suggestion in 1s. Makes sense when no one reading forums and check if someone already wrote the same bulls... before and already got explained why wrong before doing another bulls... post. When i have to write the same kitten to each single person, means over and over again... > > Aren't you even a Mesmer main? How can you be so clueless about the elite mechanic of your main class (not the first time i ask myself that, but i'm still surprised how low the classknowledge even from most main Mesmer is)? Goshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh > > But yes ofc the one dodge change is completely nonsense too, we agree to that at least. Here. > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right? > > > > > > You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again. > > > > > > This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short: > > > > > > Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management. > > > > > > And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get. > > > > > > Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on. > > > > > > > > > So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see. > > > > > > > Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/ > > > > Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant > > Passive evade traits are dumbed down too but that is a completely different thing compared to active endurance dodges. Comparsion doesn't make sense. Ofc the moment you can just nearly perma chain active dodges it would also be dumbed down (like some Thief builds can). But Mirages were far away from that already. Even more Mirage was outdodged by most other classes already. > > I think i already explained well and detailed, why a 2 dodge bar was minimum limit since game release to provide tactical deepness and the freedom of decision making for a skillful and active and not spammy dodgemanagement (in a combat system GW2 has, with enurance reggen and vigor) and why overlimiting dodge bar is a dumb down move (just as underlimiting dodge bar or dodges in general for nearly perma chaining is a dumb down too. It is all about finding a good equilibrium to maximize skill ceiling), not only on Mirage. Mirage just gets double dumbed down for already explained reasons (contradicing the whole elite mechanic, makes active and well timed pure offensive dodges for ambush rewards impossible etc). But yes that wrong logical deduction you made is easy to do. It seems right on the first view. And missing that reducing dodge uptime is only right on a situation when active dodges can be chained too much but not when you start to overlimit it. But even on builds that rly could nearly perma chain active dodges you would not reduce dodge bar to 1 , you would reduce endurance reggen and if needed higher some cds on weapon and utility skills providing an evade. > > Daredevil as the other spec build around stronger dodges even got more dodges not less than other classes, what was not rly needed but it shows that there are reasons you have to give specs build around doing more with dodges than only evading attacks a minimum of the basic resource to work as intended. Mirage go not only overnerfed in dodges (like too slow endurance reggen, no vigor uptime anymore and double cds on weaponskills with evade included, which would have the same effect) it got overnerfed in a way that contradicts the basic gamewide rule of skillful dodge management from heaving an (at least or better exactly) 2 dodges endurance bar. > > And now, after you already killed skill ceiling form dodge management (even doubled on Mirage), you now want to compensate the skill ceiling deleting overnerf on the endurance bar with more endurance reggen or higher vigor uptime, what will make the dodge management even less reactive, even more spammy on cd to not waste endurance reggen. Triple dumb down for Mirage. While the problem of the too passive/ too high condi clone dmg is not even solved by its roots. > > Mirages dodge management didn't get any harder, it got easier and it got even more passive. You simple doesn't have any possibility to use your dodges for tactical moves, so no need to think about that anymore, no opportunity costs, no harder decision making. And that on a spec that is supposed to use dodges also offensive to actively and reactive time them for ambush rewards. What now is simply impossible. And you are even forced to spam dodges when the endurance bar is full to not waste endurance reggen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > * Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process Once again: Nope. ICD on dodgetraits makes no sense. If you don't get that simple logic search my comments for the explanation i gave several times in very long and detailed form already. Most other stuff is debatable but not needed at all considering that Mirages amount of dodges is not what causes balance problem and was on a balance lvl pre patch already (Mirage got outdodged by most classes already pre patch). There is no need at all to limit Mirages ability to dodge any further (except for the insane 8s vigor uptime in Chaosline). Just rework condi ambushes /nerf condi clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks)! Problem solved (and do that directly, for example make scepter ambushes only hit 1-2 times to not overperform with Sharper Images trait. Don't do it indirectly by overnerfing traits also are needed for active condiapplications on weaponsskills or shatters). Lol @"Moradorin.6217" ty for doing some of the work for them (or for me, however you see it^^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Give mirage our dodge back and give us back old CI and OLD ELUSIVE OUR DAMAGE IS GONE, give 0 clone shatters in chrono. No more concessions debates or compromises anything less is wrong stop being so nice mesmers demand our class back not band aids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Crunch.7058 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > > * Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process > > Once again: Nope. ICD on dodgetraits makes no sense. If you don't get that simple logic search my comments for the explanation i gave several times in very long and detailed form already. > > Most other stuff is debatable but not needed at all considering that Mirages amount of dodges is not what causes balance problem and was on a balance lvl pre patch already (Mirage got outdodged by most classes already pre patch). There is no need at all to limit Mirages ability to dodge any further (except for the insane 8s vigor uptime in Chaosline). Just rework condi ambushes /nerf condi clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks)! Problem solved > Well considering that one of the most common complaints was how Mirage can dodge while dodging and thus create two clones back-to-back instantly and use it for a quick strong shatter this should satisfy that whining without affecting any other mesmer build. A 3/4 or 5/8 ICD would mean that DE is available to be used for clone generation on dodge for all other mesmer builds and would only have an impact on Mirage. Personally idc, I thought the meta was ok before and just needed some adjusting in a few areas but here we are..... I am just trying to take the current meta into consideration and the direction Anet seems to want to go because I am sure that if I had simply stated "remove condi from from clone ambushes and autoattacks" then there would be 100 posts nit-picking every thing Mesmer's can do without taking into consideration what other professions can do already and demanding more even more tradeoffs :/ And btw, already read your posts earlier on why the change to having only one dodge is contradictory given the nature of the Mirage spec. Saved me the trouble of having to write it myself. Ty for the hard work :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. Edited : For clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 ill play this shitty ass spec anyways, and ill make sure to find the weakest enemy on enemy team and make it my personal mission to focus them down so that they cry about mirage still. Show must go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > > > > * Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process > > > > Once again: Nope. ICD on dodgetraits makes no sense. If you don't get that simple logic search my comments for the explanation i gave several times in very long and detailed form already. > > > > Most other stuff is debatable but not needed at all considering that Mirages amount of dodges is not what causes balance problem and was on a balance lvl pre patch already (Mirage got outdodged by most classes already pre patch). There is no need at all to limit Mirages ability to dodge any further (except for the insane 8s vigor uptime in Chaosline). Just rework condi ambushes /nerf condi clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks)! Problem solved > > > > Well considering that one of the most common complaints was how Mirage can dodge while dodging and thus create two clones back-to-back instantly and use it for a quick strong shatter this should satisfy that whining without affecting any other mesmer build. A 3/4 or 5/8 ICD would mean that DE is available to be used for clone generation on dodge for all other mesmer builds and would only have an impact on Mirage. Personally idc, I thought the meta was ok before and just needed some adjusting in a few areas but here we are..... > > I am just trying to take the current meta into consideration and the direction Anet seems to want to go because I am sure that if I had simply stated "remove condi from from clone ambushes and autoattacks" then there would be 100 posts nit-picking every thing Mesmer's can do without taking into consideration what other professions can do already and demanding more even more tradeoffs :/ > > And btw, already read your posts earlier on why the change to having only one dodge is contradictory given the nature of the Mirage spec. Saved me the trouble of having to write it myself. Ty for the hard work :D If the ability to generate clones on dodge too quickly is your issue. Then you are looking at the wrong things. You would want to add say a 2-5 sec cooldown on Deceptive Evasion then which is the trait from dueling that allows a mesmer to make clones on dodge in the first place. Its not a mirage thing at all. Also a small cooldown on that wouldnt really break anything for core either. That said, I dont think its a good idea or needed. Just saying clones on dodge have nothing to do with mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > > > > > > * Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process > > > > > > Once again: Nope. ICD on dodgetraits makes no sense. If you don't get that simple logic search my comments for the explanation i gave several times in very long and detailed form already. > > > > > > Most other stuff is debatable but not needed at all considering that Mirages amount of dodges is not what causes balance problem and was on a balance lvl pre patch already (Mirage got outdodged by most classes already pre patch). There is no need at all to limit Mirages ability to dodge any further (except for the insane 8s vigor uptime in Chaosline). Just rework condi ambushes /nerf condi clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks)! Problem solved > > > > > > > Well considering that one of the most common complaints was how Mirage can dodge while dodging and thus create two clones back-to-back instantly and use it for a quick strong shatter this should satisfy that whining without affecting any other mesmer build. A 3/4 or 5/8 ICD would mean that DE is available to be used for clone generation on dodge for all other mesmer builds and would only have an impact on Mirage. Personally idc, I thought the meta was ok before and just needed some adjusting in a few areas but here we are..... > > > > I am just trying to take the current meta into consideration and the direction Anet seems to want to go because I am sure that if I had simply stated "remove condi from from clone ambushes and autoattacks" then there would be 100 posts nit-picking every thing Mesmer's can do without taking into consideration what other professions can do already and demanding more even more tradeoffs :/ > > > > And btw, already read your posts earlier on why the change to having only one dodge is contradictory given the nature of the Mirage spec. Saved me the trouble of having to write it myself. Ty for the hard work :D > > If the ability to generate clones on dodge too quickly is your issue. Then you are looking at the wrong things. You would want to add say a 2-5 sec cooldown on Deceptive Evasion then which is the trait from dueling that allows a mesmer to make clones on dodge in the first place. Its not a mirage thing at all. Also a small cooldown on that wouldnt really break anything for core either. That said, I dont think its a good idea or needed. Just saying clones on dodge have nothing to do with mirage. weeee nerf EM weee nerf IH weee nerf ambushes weeee nerf IH weeee nerf staff weeee nerf scepter weee nerf pistol weeee nerf deceptive evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > Well considering that one of the most common complaints was how Mirage can dodge while dodging and thus create two clones back-to-back instantly and use it for a quick strong shatter this should satisfy that whining without affecting any other mesmer build. A 3/4 or 5/8 ICD would mean that DE is available to be used for clone generation on dodge for all other mesmer builds and would only have an impact on Mirage. Personally idc, I thought the meta was ok before and just needed some adjusting in a few areas but here we are..... If i am not mistaken then Mirage cannot dodge while dodging. If you spam the dodge button during Mirage Cloak is still running you do not dodge again. You only can chain dodges like very other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Crunch.7058 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > If the ability to generate clones on dodge too quickly is your issue. Then you are looking at the wrong things. You would want to add say a 2-5 sec cooldown on Deceptive Evasion then which is the trait from dueling that allows a mesmer to make clones on dodge in the first place. Its not a mirage thing at all. Also a small cooldown on that wouldnt really break anything for core either. That said, I dont think its a good idea or needed. Just saying clones on dodge have nothing to do with mirage. I never said it was an issue for me, only that it was one of the things most complained about by others. I also know very well that DE is part of the Dueling traitline and not part of the Mirage traitline, I never said it was. Also just did some testing, I rescind my comment about giving DE an ICD. Apparently can't use Mirage Cloak while under the effects of Mirage Cloak. I was mistaken. Learn something new every day. But the intention was that an ICD of 3/4 of a second would not interfere with the way dodging works for other mesmer builds/specs and it would preserve that as opposed to a 2-5 second ICD as you suggest which would *absoutely* break the trait and be a straight nerf to all of mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > Yes because Chaoline is still op. Play Mirage without Chaosline (and without Inspiration) in pre patch 2 dodge form and you will see how "broken" Mirage is by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Crunch.7058 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > If i am not mistaken then Mirage cannot dodge while dodging. If you spam the dodge button during Mirage Cloak is still running you do not dodge again. You only can chain dodges like very other class. > I was posting about this just now. My bad, I was mistaken. Thank you trying to clarifying though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > If i am not mistaken then Mirage cannot dodge while dodging. If you spam the dodge button during Mirage Cloak is still running you do not dodge again. You only can chain dodges like very other class. > > > I was posting about this just now. My bad, I was mistaken. Thank you trying to clarifying though. > No problem, happens to all of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > Edited : For clarity. Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. Not rly true. At least it looks only on one side of the medal and for that miss half of the truth. Missing exactly the stuff that adds tactical deepness, mechanical complexity and skill ceiling in return for what you describe and is literally only a lower skill floor. It also adds more opportunity for mindgames to both sides. Means yes also the Mirages opponent needs to be more skilled and needs to have knowledge about the Mirage spec to beat that. But i get tired of rewriting wall of text with explanations again. What you did here is a half baked, incomplete and biased analysis only looking at negatives trying to make stuff look more strong than it actually is. It is not all wrong what you say but it is still only half of the story. All in all MC is not beyond broken and aside from lowering skill floor it clearly adds way more skill ceiling in return if you look at the whole thing unbiased. You also miss all the inherent costs implementet to balance out (and also adds skill ceiling again) the strong mechanic MC provides since Pof release. MC is since longer already not what makes Miragetraitline itself overperform, it is the too passive and op condi ambushes and 2 still not solved core problems of a braindead mistake friendly passive facetank sustain core traitline like Chaos Mirage has good synergy to and too much condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. No you really have no idea how hard it is to not die as a mesmer if your seen or if you press any buttons, most mirages don't die because we end up not using any of our skills in fights and reserve them to run because we have no staying power at all pre and post nerf mirage. Please play one and show record it and show me this mirage that can facetank and survive a Necro or a Ranger unloading everything on them. This is why Mirage utility bar is 3 escapes most of the time. Because we dont have infinite dodges and we are very squishy. If its not 3 its 2 with the 3 being arcane thievery which also doubled as a escape because of superspeed but now speedspeed trait is trash so theres that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > No you really have no idea how hard it is to not die as a mesmer if your seen or if you press any buttons, most mirages don't die because we end up not using any of our skills in fights and reserve them to run because we have no staying power at all pre and post nerf mirage. Please play one and show record it and show me this mirage that can facetank and survive a Necro or a Ranger unloading everything on them. > > This is why Mirage utility bar is 3 escapes most of the time. > Because we dont have infinite dodges and we are very squishy. > > If its not 3 its 2 with the 3 being arcane thievery which also doubled as a escape because of superspeed but now speedspeed trait is trash so theres that. now its almost impossible to play without signet of illu. if someone looks your way at all you HAVE to disort, and signet resets it. such fun combat, im still forced to dodge everything or I die, exept now I dont even have dodges :D dodge, scept 2, axe 3, dodge aaand here goes my disort. now im dead :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > > > No you really have no idea how hard it is to not die as a mesmer if your seen or if you press any buttons, most mirages don't die because we end up not using any of our skills in fights and reserve them to run because we have no staying power at all pre and post nerf mirage. Please play one and show record it and show me this mirage that can facetank and survive a Necro or a Ranger unloading everything on them. > > > > This is why Mirage utility bar is 3 escapes most of the time. > > Because we dont have infinite dodges and we are very squishy. > > > > If its not 3 its 2 with the 3 being arcane thievery which also doubled as a escape because of superspeed but now speedspeed trait is trash so theres that. > > now its almost impossible to play without signet of illu. > if someone looks your way at all you HAVE to disort, and signet resets it. > such fun combat, im still forced to dodge everything or I die, exept now I dont even have dodges :D > dodge, scept 2, axe 3, dodge aaand here goes my disort. now im dead :D I see 2 dodges in that chain, do you cheat? :grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > Not rly true. At least it looks only on one side of the medal and for that miss half of the truth. Missing exactly the stuff that adds tactical deepness, mechanical complexity and skill ceiling in return for what you describe and is literally only a lower skill floor. It also adds more opportunity for mindgames to both sides. Means yes also the Mirages opponent needs to be more skilled and needs to have knowledge about the Mirage spec to beat that. But i get tired of rewriting wall of text with explanations again. I am well aware that fighting mirage requires learning different playstyles and takes a lot of skill. Adding any kind of new gameplay mechanic requires learning new strategies and skills, but that doesnt mean these new mechanics are good for the game. > > What you did here is a half baked, incomplete and biased analysis only looking at negatives trying to make stuff look more strong than it actually is. It is not all wrong what you say but it is still only half of the story. All in all MC is not beyond broken and aside from lowering skill floor it clearly adds way more skill ceiling in return if you look at the whole thing unbiased. You also miss all the inherent costs implementet to balance out (and also adds skill ceiling again) the strong mechanic MC provides since Pof release. MC is since longer already not what makes Miragetraitline itself overperform, it is the too passive and op condi ambushes and 2 still not solved core problems of a braindead mistake friendly passive facetank sustain core traitline like Chaos Mirage has good synergy to and too much condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks. Adding to the skill ceiling through additional class mechanics isnt necessarily good. I could come up with dozens of new gameplay mechanics that require a lot of skill to deal with, but would completely ruin the pacing and flow of the game. Mesmer already has its unique clone mechanics with shatters, target breaks & stealth, multiple tps and combat mobility. Its completely possible to overload a class with too many effects and features. When pof first was released, condi mirage damage was not nearly as passive as it is now. Condi damage and duration has been repeatedly nerfed, yet the class remains a problem. The only question worth arguing here is whether or not you think certain classes should be given a significant design advantage over others. In some games (like those that follow rock, paper, scissors rules), yes that makes perfect sense and the game is designed that way. All I am arguing is that in Gw2 some mechanics like MC do not belong in a fair pvp setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > > > > > No you really have no idea how hard it is to not die as a mesmer if your seen or if you press any buttons, most mirages don't die because we end up not using any of our skills in fights and reserve them to run because we have no staying power at all pre and post nerf mirage. Please play one and show record it and show me this mirage that can facetank and survive a Necro or a Ranger unloading everything on them. > > > > > > This is why Mirage utility bar is 3 escapes most of the time. > > > Because we dont have infinite dodges and we are very squishy. > > > > > > If its not 3 its 2 with the 3 being arcane thievery which also doubled as a escape because of superspeed but now speedspeed trait is trash so theres that. > > > > now its almost impossible to play without signet of illu. > > if someone looks your way at all you HAVE to disort, and signet resets it. > > such fun combat, im still forced to dodge everything or I die, exept now I dont even have dodges :D > > dodge, scept 2, axe 3, dodge aaand here goes my disort. now im dead :D > > I see 2 dodges in that chain, do you cheat? :grin: its energy sigil doing gods work best friend of every mirage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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