bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > > > Not rly true. At least it looks only on one side of the medal and for that miss half of the truth. Missing exactly the stuff that adds tactical deepness, mechanical complexity and skill ceiling in return for what you describe and is literally only a lower skill floor. It also adds more opportunity for mindgames to both sides. Means yes also the Mirages opponent needs to be more skilled and needs to have knowledge about the Mirage spec to beat that. But i get tired of rewriting wall of text with explanations again. > > I am well aware that fighting mirage requires learning different playstyles and takes a lot of skill. Adding any kind of new gameplay mechanic requires learning new strategies and skills, but that doesnt mean these new mechanics are good for the game. > > > > What you did here is a half baked, incomplete and biased analysis only looking at negatives trying to make stuff look more strong than it actually is. It is not all wrong what you say but it is still only half of the story. All in all MC is not beyond broken and aside from lowering skill floor it clearly adds way more skill ceiling in return if you look at the whole thing unbiased. You also miss all the inherent costs implementet to balance out (and also adds skill ceiling again) the strong mechanic MC provides since Pof release. MC is since longer already not what makes Miragetraitline itself overperform, it is the too passive and op condi ambushes and 2 still not solved core problems of a braindead mistake friendly passive facetank sustain core traitline like Chaos Mirage has good synergy to and too much condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks. > > Adding to the skill ceiling through additional class mechanics isnt necessarily good. I could come up with dozens of new gameplay mechanics that require a lot of skill to deal with, but would completely ruin the pacing and flow of the game. Mesmer already has its unique clone mechanics with shatters, target breaks & stealth, multiple tps and combat mobility. Its completely possible to overload a class with too many effects and features. When pof first was released, condi mirage damage was not nearly as passive as it is now. Condi damage and duration has been repeatedly nerfed, yet the class remains a problem. > > The only question worth arguing here is whether or not you think certain classes should be given a significant design advantage over others. In some games (like those that follow rock, paper, scissors rules), yes that makes perfect sense and the game is designed that way. All I am arguing is that in Gw2 some mechanics like MC do not belong in a fair pvp setting. As said it adds skill ceiling to Mirage itself not only forces higher skill lvl on the opponent fighting them. You just ignore all arguments that explain why the lower skill floor MC produce gets overcompensated by the higher skill ceiling it adds to the class and why it in pre patch state wasn't MC what was overperforming. It was directly nerfed (from 1 to 3/4 s dodge duration, from superspeed to quickness) and indirectly by less endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to a balanced lvl already (except for the 8s vigor on broken Chaosline), + the inherent costs on top of that you also completely ignored. MC is not overperforming on Powermirage for exactly that reason. SO there is no need for any nerfs also touching Powerbuilds when you just can nerf the condi problem directly. The condi dmg on Mirage was always passive, just that no one used the Mirage mechanic for dmg right after PoF release, because back then the synergy between Blinding Dis and Ineptitude was way more broken so you could use the absolute gamebreaking stunbreak on dodge/condiremove trait instead IH for more mistake cover defense/sustain and still do insane dmg. Anet then overnerfed shatters as active source of condi dmg while not solving the problem with the per se wrong designed condi ambushes. 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infinitet.7546 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. You statements are exaggerated to the point of being propaganda like distortions (a true fallacy). In other words, its misleading and untrue/inaccurate. Mirage cloak does NOTHING unless you dodge. When Mirage dodges and gains Mirage cloak instead of dodge it gets a 3/4 sec evade (same as normal dodge) it uses up endurance bar like a normal dodge without any increased endurance regeneration or extra dodges like DD gets. During that time Mirage can also use Ambush which is the main source of damage for mirage. That's IT. that is ALL it does. It doesn't even give particularly good damage. What Mirage Cloak has is good is synergy Infinite Horizon (IH) without IH ambush damage on dodge is kitten. Allot of people, even people who play mirage all the time, don't actually get how the mirage skills work so they QQ and complain and repeat what they hear. It has become a seriously toxic situation in which many mesmers feel as if they are literally beging treated as the scapegoats and pariahs of the community. The marked lesser class of citizens if you will. The ones who should all be exterminated. I mean seriously, how many times a day on the forums do I hate to read people say they are happy about the changes because it means Mesmer is gone so now they can play and be happy due literally to Mesmers Death. In what way can it be argued that this is a good direction? How does this help the player community? How does it improve the health of the game? Mesmers have to watch opponents and wait for opportunity like any other class. Mirage can heal up opponents with barriers, or kill themselfs on retaliation like anyone else who just spams attacks without consideration. Its not mindless. Mirage can be watched and taken advantage of by people who understand Mirage like any other class. The things to watch for on Mirage are a little different some times. Its not always a simple animation. Some times its a matter of timing, some times its a matter of selecting the correct target or skill. However, isnt that what skilled play is SUPPOSED to be about? It honestly sounds more like what you are wanting is easy opponents who dont pose much challenge to you when you want to time your attack. Sounds more like you may be asking for less skilled combat, but are afraid to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitet.7546 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > > > > * Give Deceptive Evasion a 3/4 or 5/8 of a second ICD so that dodge spamming -> clone generation -> Shatter is stopped without destroying other mesmer builds in the process > > > > Once again: Nope. ICD on dodgetraits makes no sense. If you don't get that simple logic search my comments for the explanation i gave several times in very long and detailed form already. > > > > Most other stuff is debatable but not needed at all considering that Mirages amount of dodges is not what causes balance problem and was on a balance lvl pre patch already (Mirage got outdodged by most classes already pre patch). There is no need at all to limit Mirages ability to dodge any further (except for the insane 8s vigor uptime in Chaosline). Just rework condi ambushes /nerf condi clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks)! Problem solved > > > > Well considering that one of the most common complaints was how Mirage can dodge while dodging and thus create two clones back-to-back instantly and use it for a quick strong shatter this should satisfy that whining without affecting any other mesmer build. A 3/4 or 5/8 ICD would mean that DE is available to be used for clone generation on dodge for all other mesmer builds and would only have an impact on Mirage. Personally idc, I thought the meta was ok before and just needed some adjusting in a few areas but here we are..... > > I am just trying to take the current meta into consideration and the direction Anet seems to want to go because I am sure that if I had simply stated "remove condi from from clone ambushes and autoattacks" then there would be 100 posts nit-picking every thing Mesmer's can do without taking into consideration what other professions can do already and demanding more even more tradeoffs :/ > > And btw, already read your posts earlier on why the change to having only one dodge is contradictory given the nature of the Mirage spec. Saved me the trouble of having to write it myself. Ty for the hard work :D This seems like another example of what I mean when I say players are bias and feel little pressure or fear that they may be questioned or shunned for Mesmer hate. Its not actually fact based, its just critical and written in such a way as to dismiss Mirage as some super villain or terminal illness the game is better off without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"infinitet.7546" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > You statements are exaggerated to the point of being propaganda like distortions (a true fallacy). In other words, its misleading and untrue/inaccurate. > > Mirage cloak does NOTHING unless you dodge. > > When Mirage dodges and gains Mirage cloak instead of dodge it gets a 3/4 sec evade (same as normal dodge) it uses up endurance bar like a normal dodge without any increased endurance regeneration or extra dodges like DD gets. During that time Mirage can also use Ambush which is the main source of damage for mirage. That's IT. that is ALL it does. > > It doesn't even give particularly good damage. > > What Mirage Cloak has is good is synergy Infinite Horizon (IH) without IH ambush damage on dodge is kitten. Allot of people, even people who play mirage all the time, don't actually get how the mirage skills work so they QQ and complain and repeat what they hear. It has become a seriously toxic situation in which many mesmers feel as if they are literally beging treated as the scapegoats and pariahs of the community. The marked lesser class of citizens if you will. The ones who should all be exterminated. > > I mean seriously, how many times a day on the forums do I hate to read people say they are happy about the changes because it means Mesmer is gone so now they can play and be happy due literally to Mesmers Death. In what way can it be argued that this is a good direction? How does this help the player community? How does it improve the health of the game? > > Mesmers have to watch opponents and wait for opportunity like any other class. > > Mirage can heal up opponents with barriers, or kill themselfs on retaliation like anyone else who just spams attacks without consideration. Its not mindless. > > Mirage can be watched and taken advantage of by people who understand Mirage like any other class. The things to watch for on Mirage are a little different some times. Its not always a simple animation. Some times its a matter of timing, some times its a matter of selecting the correct target or skill. However, isnt that what skilled play is SUPPOSED to be about? It honestly sounds more like what you are wanting is easy opponents who dont pose much challenge to you when you want to time your attack. Sounds more like you may be asking for less skilled combat, but are afraid to admit it. I feel like you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say, please read my other comments. Also, propaganda... really? And you are saying im the one who is exaggerating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > Mirage's existence is a paradox. It is continuously nerfed into oblivion, yet has always been op. I dont know how people can still argue about balance. The class is broken by design, and will remain a problem until mirage cloak and its respective traits are reworked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its not broken by design at all its just player salt being interpreted as fact, instead is should be ignored and put on fries. The day they nerfed confusion damage mirage was mid tier. Its the same as every mmo with a stealth mechanic and people complaining about said stealth mechanic but in those games DEVs have the intelligence to ignore them since its such an old mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are new and i truly believe the DEVs just didn't know how to handle the salt as this was there own baby in every way and they succumbed to the forum tears and this is the result a dead class. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edited : For clarity. > > > > > > > > > > Evading while performing other actions is objectively op. It has nothing to do with salt, damage output, or what the meta classes currently are. Gw2 has always been a game where you succeed by outplaying your opponent through superior game knowledge and mechanical skill. Mirage cloak removes many layers of this, and allows mirage players to ignore gameplay elements that add depth and skill to combat. Watching for animations, telegraphs, player movement and position is what gw2 pvp is based around. Mirage cloak removes the need for skillful timing of attacks around defensive actions and offensive pressure, and it allows the player to be careless yet remain relatively unpunished when using telegraphed skills and having poor positioning. > > > > > > > > > > The same can be said about stealth, which is why as you said, people complain about stealth in every mmo with pvp. Being invisible removes the knowledge of player movement and position from the fight, and it usually guarantees the opportunity to strike first. It doesnt mean that stealth classes are always meta, it just means they are designed to always have an advantage that often has no counter. If you are honestly defending the mechanics behind mirage, you are either biased or have some strange ideas on competitive game design. > > > > > > > > No you really have no idea how hard it is to not die as a mesmer if your seen or if you press any buttons, most mirages don't die because we end up not using any of our skills in fights and reserve them to run because we have no staying power at all pre and post nerf mirage. Please play one and show record it and show me this mirage that can facetank and survive a Necro or a Ranger unloading everything on them. > > > > > > > > This is why Mirage utility bar is 3 escapes most of the time. > > > > Because we dont have infinite dodges and we are very squishy. > > > > > > > > If its not 3 its 2 with the 3 being arcane thievery which also doubled as a escape because of superspeed but now speedspeed trait is trash so theres that. > > > > > > now its almost impossible to play without signet of illu. > > > if someone looks your way at all you HAVE to disort, and signet resets it. > > > such fun combat, im still forced to dodge everything or I die, exept now I dont even have dodges :D > > > dodge, scept 2, axe 3, dodge aaand here goes my disort. now im dead :D > > > > I see 2 dodges in that chain, do you cheat? :grin: > > its energy sigil doing gods work > best friend of every mirage! Stupid me xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 my initial idea about this was making IH proc when hhp is below 75 or 50%, then you have the chance to pressure the mesmer before it turns into a spam god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Khalisto.5780" said: > my initial idea about this was making IH proc when hhp is below 75 or 50%, then you have the chance to pressure the mesmer before it turns into a spam god. is there some sort of Pepega bing. where yall gather up and roll random stupid idea to post on the forum ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Khalisto.5780" said: > > my initial idea about this was making IH proc when hhp is below 75 or 50%, then you have the chance to pressure the mesmer before it turns into a spam god. > > is there some sort of Pepega bing. > where yall gather up and roll random stupid idea to post on the forum ? i guess it'd be better than having a -1 dodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Khalisto.5780" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Khalisto.5780" said: > > > my initial idea about this was making IH proc when hhp is below 75 or 50%, then you have the chance to pressure the mesmer before it turns into a spam god. > > > > is there some sort of Pepega bing. > > where yall gather up and roll random stupid idea to post on the forum ? > > i guess it'd be better than having a -1 dodge as I said, I expected nothing and got still let down :D mb they will patch things around, doubt they can screw it up anymore, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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