Why is Retaliation Hitting for 300 a Tick?

[Junkpile.7439]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> I am getting the weird vibes off this thread that some players just wants to be able to bomb zergs without that zerg having ability to fight back.

>

> In most cases brought up in here even if the retal didn't get you - the zerg would, you were outnumbered and outpositioned. It's just that you killed yourself before zerg could.

>

> And there there is that guy with dragonhunter that believes that dropping a trap and then waypointing and having that trap damage enemy zerg while he was back on spawn is ok, but retal hitting him back across this distance is not. And to his case I offer simple solution - all traps despawn when the one who placed them move to far away from them. Here, no more retal ticks across the map.

Yes this. It's kind of unfair that zergling would have to move out of trap. It's just isn't any fun try to avoid red circles. :(

[Syrus.2174]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> I am getting the weird vibes off this thread that some players just wants to be able to bomb zergs without that zerg having ability to fight back.

>

> In most cases brought up in here even if the retal didn't get you - the zerg would, you were outnumbered and outpositioned. It's just that you killed yourself before zerg could.

>

You are missing the fact that the mere appliance of retaliation is in no way actual fighting back, it is a lazy way of protecting the zerg from non-grouped up threats without the necessity of them actually doing something, despite a zerg already having the major advantage of being definitely more numerous and therefore having more ways of defending themselves.

People say a player needs to coordinate with their zerg to actually be effective. I see it the way that a zerg should also be required to coordinate so that their rear and flanks are safe - even from single players - by actually acting, by actually fighting those players and defeating them, not just by an easily applied "if you attack, you die"-boon.

Instead of preventing people attacking through a boon that turns any real attack into pure suicide, why not make it so that the zerg players have to act to defend themselves?

This "the zerg is invulnerable"-attitude just further pushes the WvW game mode into "blob vs blob" as the only "viable strategy". Overrun, or be overrun.

 

 

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> And there there is that guy with dragonhunter that believes that dropping a trap and then waypointing and having that trap damage enemy zerg while he was back on spawn is ok, but retal hitting him back across this distance is not. And to his case I offer simple solution - all traps despawn when the one who placed them move to far away from them. Here, no more retal ticks across the map.

>

I absolutely agree on the part where traps should be range limited. But you are missing the point here: just because one thing is broken, doesn't mean a different thing also being broken is fine and the issue with retaliation not being range limited, not being line of sight limited, not being affected by toughness, and so on ... those issues still persist, even if you fix the issues with traps.

 

---

 

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > I am getting the weird vibes off this thread that some players just wants to be able to bomb zergs without that zerg having ability to fight back.

> >

> > In most cases brought up in here even if the retal didn't get you - the zerg would, you were outnumbered and outpositioned. It's just that you killed yourself before zerg could.

> >

> > And there there is that guy with dragonhunter that believes that dropping a trap and then waypointing and having that trap damage enemy zerg while he was back on spawn is ok, but retal hitting him back across this distance is not. And to his case I offer simple solution - all traps despawn when the one who placed them move to far away from them. Here, no more retal ticks across the map.

>

> This. Every retal QQ thread can be summed up as "I didn't coordinate with the zerg bomb and died to Retal procs plz nerf cus I'm too bad to learn how to play better" to which the reply is "wait for the boon strips..." to which the QQers accuse others as being bad players defending the boon that is doing its job right.

>

> Either strip the boon yourself or wait for it to be stripped. Bubbles are big hints on where to put the nukes, or hop into voice chat and hold your nukes for when the tag calls for them.

>

That is easily said for people playing classes that can strip boon and for people having good server groups where people actually have boon removal. Overall the other boons already make for a powerful enemy to fight, I don't see why there needs to be yet one more strength factor added on top of it with a boon that actually takes away the part of having to defend yourself. Boons and boon removal already are a massive factor for zerg fights, it doesn't need to be even more significant.

If you already have a coordinated zerg you shouldn't even be needing this clutch at all, you will already be powerful enough. But, even if people don't seem to realize it, retaliation really does hurt the groups of randoms who aren't lucky enough to have the right and perfect class combinations in their zerg.

You are thereby furthering the meta-game even more, making some classes - those who can boon strip - even more "valuable" to a "proper" zerg.

Now, I'm all for a well run guild zerg being more powerful than a random pug-fest, but let's be reasonable: that power should come through skill, not through some lazy boon. The impact of that one boon is simply too great, with the major nerf patch, even more so now than before, as it was not adjusted.

 

Besides, insulting people with concerns about a broken game mechanic as "QQers" and "bad" players is not furthering the discussion in a meaningful way.

Please keep it civil.

 

---

 

Telling people to run less glassy builds is also a funny thing when the boon ignores toughness.

Thereby it has two factors about itself which cause it to hit classes very unequally:

One, those classes or builds that rely much more on many single hits instead of few big ones suffer A LOT more, probably the reason why, back in the days of hammer rev, I never felt anywhere as squishy with that compared to my ele. And two, those classes with lower base HP also suffer more due to the health damage being the same all around.

Usually, positioning would be key here, as with a more glassy build, you try to not get hit. Avoid dying by avoiding damage. With retaliation that all becomes null and void. You take damage no matter how well you play, the only defining factor is whether you have the heal or boon strip to counter it. Sure, it means you require a healer and "that's teamplay", but I just cannot see how this is a good mechanic.

Again, and again, I can tell you: there is no skill involved in applying a boon and watching the enemy kill themselves on you.

 

---

 

Personally I don't like the suggestion of limiting retaliation to melee range. Melee already suffers enough. And limiting retaliation to "once per second at most", or nerfing it in any way that would "fix" the problem, would just be equal to removing any reason for it to exist at all - in that case, to lessen server load even, maybe, the boon could be removed all together.

[Ganathar.4956]

Even if you believe that applying perma retal to your zerg is somehow "skillful", there is currently no argument against a retal nerf. All direct damage and condi damage was nerfed. Retal remaining the same is a huge oversight and provides a massive advantage compared to before. Another oversight is downed skill damage not being nerfed as well. Certain down states are quite powerful right now because of this.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Even if you believe that applying perma retal to your zerg is somehow "skillful", there is currently no argument against a retal nerf. All direct damage and condi damage was nerfed. Retal remaining the same is a huge oversight and provides a massive advantage compared to before. Another oversight is downed skill damage not being nerfed as well. Certain down states are quite powerful right now because of this.

 

Ranger pet rez.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

> > > Why i need to learn how to play, but blobbers don't even need to learn how to dodge?

> > >

> >

> > ?????

> >

> > Do you think that people playing in a zerg successfully don't dodge or...?

> Today i saw blob who just stand in one place like 3 minutes and didn't die. Broken healing, broken boon sharing, damage nerfs and aoe cap make it so easy.

 

That's the problem of balance boons stacking and the everythign is boon effect(due how it is extremely new player friendly mechanics it way to easy to achieve it...).... and why i keep prefering the gw1 sheme, most could not be stacked besides boons and echantments.

 

But that's what Anet wants the game to be... low floor skill with easy acces to boon stacking, they think they will solve the issue by making boons aply to 5 targets max :P....

[Syrus.2174]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Another oversight is downed skill damage not being nerfed as well. Certain down states are quite powerful right now because of this.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Ranger pet rez.

Good point, but it would be a good idea to voice the very justified concerns about downed state skills, including pet revive, in a new thread, even though, as my experience goes, it would be unlikely to change anything. I really hope Anet takes a look at downed skills soon after adjusting and tweaking some of the other things that are currently out of balance and/or broken.

 

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> But that's what Anet wants the game to be... low floor skill with easy acces to boon stacking, they think they will solve the issue by making boons aply to 5 targets max :P....

I don't know what Anet wants the game to be. To play very well still means you need a lot of skill and the right classes in a zerg - that means, you need to know how to play the right classes right in a good zerg.

 

---

 

What I do know is that retaliation is not a game mechanic that requires "skill" and further strengthens those, who don't need it, against those, who can't counter it.

 

A perfect zerg has no problem with retal, as they are (almost) required to have boon removal. But a group of randoms without the proper classes suffer significant additional harm, despite already being at the disadvantage of having to fight a boon'ed up enemy zerg. There's no skill in just having the right classes, in my opinion, there's only skill in playing your class right. Suffering significant, unavoidable damage because you have no counter against it, you cannot remove the boon, cannot dodge it, outrun it or "out of line of sight" it, almost dying because the very action of you attacking an enemy will drain your health to great degree is not skilled by the enemy, nor is it unskilled by the attacker.

It is also not similar to things like reflects, which can also kill you - those need to be well placed, or well timed. They often have long cooldowns, they can't be kept up permanently and only affect projectiles, so you can stop attacking easily and wait for them to end. Not to mention you get visual cues. Retaliation is nigh invisible in a big blob, you will never be able to "scan" through all players and by the time your AEs are down the situation might have changed considerably.

 

Not even the good old term of "just dodge" can be said for it. "Just heal", "Just go invulnerable" - and then watch as the fight unfolds, while you wait out those cooldowns before you can attack again? It is a clear loss by that point.

 

I don't see why people see a need in defending such a bad mechanic. It adds nothing to the game but laziness.

 

...again, I'm repeating myself. Luckily not too many zergs run with retaliation, it's definitely been a reason for me to stop playing GW2 for the evening a few times already.

[Mizhas.8536]

The people that complain about retal are obviously people that are trying to fight solo against bigger numbers. From my perspective, the solution is easy:

 

- Get yourself a healer friend.

 

To be honest, I can not think about an excuse to complain about retal in a 1v1 situation. It is similar to when warriors block/endure pain or thieves dodge. You just need to l2p and stop hitting when the enemy has retaliation or strip the boon. Of course, people should stop complaining about trying to nuke solo and entire zerg. Jeez, just think about how WvW would be looking like if any elementalist, revenant, DH, engineer, the ranger could nuke zergs from 1200 - 1500 without getting damage. THAT would be a problem. Basically, nobody would be able to go in melee range ever again since those classes would jsut kite, CC and nuke you down from 1200 feet. Imagine a 30 player zerg surronded by 10 elementalist meteor-showering... THAT would be a nonsense and would bring the game into a massive pirate wars meta once again.

 

Retaliation, as it is now it serves its purpose perfectly.

[Syrus.2174]

> @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> The people that complain about retal are obviously people that are trying to fight solo against bigger numbers. From my perspective, the solution is easy:

>

> - Get yourself a healer friend.

>

> To be honest, I can not think about an excuse to complain about retal in a 1v1 situation. It is similar to when warriors block/endure pain or thieves dodge. **You just need to l2p and stop hitting when the enemy** has retaliation or strip the boon. Of course, people should stop complaining about trying to nuke solo and entire zerg. Jeez, just think about how WvW would be looking like if any elementalist, revenant, DH, engineer, the ranger could nuke zergs from 1200 - 1500 **without getting damage**. THAT would be a problem. Basically, nobody would be able to go in melee range ever again since those classes would jsut kite, CC and nuke you down from 1200 feet. Imagine a 30 player zerg surronded by 10 elementalist meteor-showering... THAT would be a nonsense and would bring the game into a massive pirate wars meta once again.

>

> Retaliation, as it is now it serves its purpose perfectly.

I thought that's what being able to fight back was for?

Or are you implying that trying to take on an enemy zerg, as in, being quite outnumbered and already at a severe disadvantage, and successfully avoiding all damage besides retaliation is a "learn to play"-kind of issue? To me that sounds more like a "learn to not-play" thing. Like, when there's an enemy zerg around with retaliation, no matter what you do, you are supposed die against them - even if you avoid all their actual damage.

Besides, how do I stop an AE from hitting once it is down? Especially those with longer duration, like the meteor shower you mentioned? Imagine, you attack a zerg, they have no retaliation, you start your bomb, set up your slow and long lasting meteor shower - the enemy pops retal ... aaaand you die. In the worst case, at least. In the best you have to disengage and/or waste your heal, no matter if you managed to outplay the enemy by good positioning, sneaky tactics or such and didn't actually get hit at all. And if you do get hit, you are likely to go down because of the little health you will have left...

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how that is a "l2p" issue. What is there to learn besides "don't even try to attack a zerg you are unlikely to beat"?

 

And ... you say, remove the boon, well, with which of my many skills should I do that? To reiterate it, not every class can do that. It is actually quite limited.

 

A zerg being attacked by a few players should have no problem dealing with the few players by fighting back. They are outnumbering them after all. But if the attacker plays better than the zerg, what's the problem with them being able to take on the zerg successfully? To me that sounds like a "well played" case. Skill beating mass sounds fine to me.

If ranged meta is too powerful by itself, then that's a different issue altogether, though curently I feel like it isn't really.

And that's not because of retaliation eating some classes alive.

 

As I said, luckily fewer zergs have perma-retaliation around, despite that, it's still an issue.

[Mizhas.8536]

> @"Syrus.2174" said:

> > @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> > The people that complain about retal are obviously people that are trying to fight solo against bigger numbers. From my perspective, the solution is easy:

> >

> > - Get yourself a healer friend.

> >

> > To be honest, I can not think about an excuse to complain about retal in a 1v1 situation. It is similar to when warriors block/endure pain or thieves dodge. **You just need to l2p and stop hitting when the enemy** has retaliation or strip the boon. Of course, people should stop complaining about trying to nuke solo and entire zerg. Jeez, just think about how WvW would be looking like if any elementalist, revenant, DH, engineer, the ranger could nuke zergs from 1200 - 1500 **without getting damage**. THAT would be a problem. Basically, nobody would be able to go in melee range ever again since those classes would jsut kite, CC and nuke you down from 1200 feet. Imagine a 30 player zerg surronded by 10 elementalist meteor-showering... THAT would be a nonsense and would bring the game into a massive pirate wars meta once again.

> >

> > Retaliation, as it is now it serves its purpose perfectly.

> I thought that's what being able to fight back was for?

> Or are you implying that trying to take on an enemy zerg, as in, being quite outnumbered and already at a severe disadvantage, and successfully avoiding all damage besides retaliation is a "learn to play"-kind of issue? To me that sounds more like a "learn to not-play" thing. Like, when there's an enemy zerg around with retaliation, no matter what you do, you are supposed die against them - even if you avoid all their actual damage.

> Besides, how do I stop an AE from hitting once it is down? Especially those with longer duration, like the meteor shower you mentioned? Imagine, you attack a zerg, they have no retaliation, you start your bomb, set up your slow and long lasting meteor shower - the enemy pops retal ... aaaand you die. In the worst case, at least. In the best you have to disengage and/or waste your heal, no matter if you managed to outplay the enemy by good positioning, sneaky tactics or such and didn't actually get hit at all. And if you do get hit, you are likely to go down because of the little health you will have left...

> Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how that is a "l2p" issue. What is there to learn besides "don't even try to attack a zerg you are unlikely to beat"?

>

> And ... you say, remove the boon, well, with which of my many skills should I do that? To reiterate it, not every class can do that. It is actually quite limited.

>

> A zerg being attacked by a few players should have no problem dealing with the few players by fighting back. They are outnumbering them after all. But if the attacker plays better than the zerg, what's the problem with them being able to take on the zerg successfully? To me that sounds like a "well played" case. Skill beating mass sounds fine to me.

> If ranged meta is too powerful by itself, then that's a different issue altogether, though curently I feel like it isn't really.

> And that's not because of retaliation eating some classes alive.

>

> As I said, luckily fewer zergs have perma-retaliation around, despite that, it's still an issue.

 

Like I stated at the beggining, get yourself a healer friend.

 

Lets put the example in this way.

You and your friends (15) fight a zerg (30). You try to burst them and they pop retaliation. It is easy to understand that the max number of targets you would be getting retaliation damage from is determined by you max target capabilities from your skills. So, the ammount of damage you will be taking from retaliation should be quite similar no matter if you hit 30 or 50 players. This means that no matter if you fight in equal numbers or outnumbered, the potential damage to be taken from retaliation might be quite similar.

Now since WvW is all about teamwork, you might be bringing the DPS (lets say you are an staff DPS elementalist) but probably another members of your team (warriors, necromancers, mesmers) should be bringing the boon removal. If those teammates do their job correctly, retaliation would have a high chance of being removed before you strike. In addition, we assume as well that you guys are focusing your actions into the same subgroup of enemies since no matter if you fight outnumbered, one of the first lessons of WvW combat is to focus the actions of all your team players into the same bunch of players on the edge of the enemy zerg (instead of throwing everything in the middle and allowing them to mitigate easier since they have more players)

 

To be honest I find quite amusing that elementalists or DHs for example complain about retaliations when they have the potential to bring groups of players from 100% to 0% Hp with one skill/rotation. I mean, what should be the counter for that if retaliation gets nerfed? Would aegis be the next boon to be asked for nerf?

In WvW you often see elementalist running marauder or berserker gear hitting meteor showers of +5k to minstrel guardians or +10k to necros. All this from 1200 feet + teleport. Is that balanced when average Hp is 20k?

 

So, from my point of view, ALL is related with teamwork. The whole purpose of retaliation is to discourage mindless AoE dps spamming. WvW is based on group fights therefore, you should be thinking about group sinergy necessary to overcome problems other than just asking for nerfs.

[Junkpile.7439]

Meteor shower won't kill anything nowadays. I see mainly 2.5k crits.

[Syrus.2174]

> @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> > @"Syrus.2174" said:

> > > @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> > > The people that complain about retal are obviously people that are trying to fight solo against bigger numbers. From my perspective, the solution is easy:

> > >

> > > - Get yourself a healer friend.

> > >

> > > To be honest, I can not think about an excuse to complain about retal in a 1v1 situation. It is similar to when warriors block/endure pain or thieves dodge. **You just need to l2p and stop hitting when the enemy** has retaliation or strip the boon. Of course, people should stop complaining about trying to nuke solo and entire zerg. Jeez, just think about how WvW would be looking like if any elementalist, revenant, DH, engineer, the ranger could nuke zergs from 1200 - 1500 **without getting damage**. THAT would be a problem. Basically, nobody would be able to go in melee range ever again since those classes would jsut kite, CC and nuke you down from 1200 feet. Imagine a 30 player zerg surronded by 10 elementalist meteor-showering... THAT would be a nonsense and would bring the game into a massive pirate wars meta once again.

> > >

> > > Retaliation, as it is now it serves its purpose perfectly.

> > I thought that's what being able to fight back was for?

> > Or are you implying that trying to take on an enemy zerg, as in, being quite outnumbered and already at a severe disadvantage, and successfully avoiding all damage besides retaliation is a "learn to play"-kind of issue? To me that sounds more like a "learn to not-play" thing. Like, when there's an enemy zerg around with retaliation, no matter what you do, you are supposed die against them - even if you avoid all their actual damage.

> > Besides, how do I stop an AE from hitting once it is down? Especially those with longer duration, like the meteor shower you mentioned? Imagine, you attack a zerg, they have no retaliation, you start your bomb, set up your slow and long lasting meteor shower - the enemy pops retal ... aaaand you die. In the worst case, at least. In the best you have to disengage and/or waste your heal, no matter if you managed to outplay the enemy by good positioning, sneaky tactics or such and didn't actually get hit at all. And if you do get hit, you are likely to go down because of the little health you will have left...

> > Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how that is a "l2p" issue. What is there to learn besides "don't even try to attack a zerg you are unlikely to beat"?

> >

> > And ... you say, remove the boon, well, with which of my many skills should I do that? To reiterate it, not every class can do that. It is actually quite limited.

> >

> > A zerg being attacked by a few players should have no problem dealing with the few players by fighting back. They are outnumbering them after all. But if the attacker plays better than the zerg, what's the problem with them being able to take on the zerg successfully? To me that sounds like a "well played" case. Skill beating mass sounds fine to me.

> > If ranged meta is too powerful by itself, then that's a different issue altogether, though curently I feel like it isn't really.

> > And that's not because of retaliation eating some classes alive.

> >

> > As I said, luckily fewer zergs have perma-retaliation around, despite that, it's still an issue.

>

> Like I stated at the beggining, get yourself a healer friend.

>

> Lets put the example in this way.

> You and your friends (15) fight a zerg (30). You try to burst them and they pop retaliation. It is easy to understand that the max number of targets you would be getting retaliation damage from is determined by you max target capabilities from your skills. So, the ammount of damage you will be taking from retaliation should be quite similar no matter if you hit 30 or 50 players. This means that no matter if you fight in equal numbers or outnumbered, the potential damage to be taken from retaliation might be quite similar.

> Now since WvW is all about teamwork, you might be bringing the DPS (lets say you are an staff DPS elementalist) but probably another members of your team (warriors, necromancers, mesmers) should be bringing the boon removal. If those teammates do their job correctly, retaliation would have a high chance of being removed before you strike. In addition, we assume as well that you guys are focusing your actions into the same subgroup of enemies since no matter if you fight outnumbered, one of the first lessons of WvW combat is to focus the actions of all your team players into the same bunch of players on the edge of the enemy zerg (instead of throwing everything in the middle and allowing them to mitigate easier since they have more players)

>

I can't argue with fights where you do have boon removal not being affected much by retaliation, but the moment that you don't have it around, you will always be at a severe disadvantage. From the many boons that improve things for the enemies, but also from retaliation causing you significant amounts of damage. Of course in a group you can heal against it, you will still be at a disadvantage though.

Damage-wise at some point numbers don't increase the amount of retaliation damage taken that much anymore, that is true as well. But more people usually means the likelyhood of hits increases. It always depends on the enemy zerg's stack-ability. Take a skill like meteor shower or wall of reflection though, both will mean more people results in a lot more damage taken ... they are exceptions though.

 

> @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> To be honest I find quite amusing that elementalists or DHs for example complain about retaliations when they have the potential to bring groups of players from 100% to 0% Hp with one skill/rotation. I mean, what should be the counter for that if retaliation gets nerfed? Would aegis be the next boon to be asked for nerf?

> In WvW you often see elementalist running marauder or berserker gear hitting meteor showers of +5k to minstrel guardians or +10k to necros. All this from 1200 feet + teleport. Is that balanced when average Hp is 20k?

>

The time of those hits has passed. Most I usually see is between 2k and 6k, with maybe some 7+k on the really squishy boonless targets, depending on who is hit.

And 20k health? Wishful thinking for Ele or DH. 16k is what I have, with absolutely full Marauder I guess you would hit 18k maybe. My DH has 18k with survival focus, but also got toughness - which does not help against retaliation.

Yes, you can take out people (certainly not larger groups though) with a full bomb, but you have to work for that. Get yourself in range without being noticed, getting targeted or killed, and stay close enough long enough to pop off your skills - hoping the enemy stays in them. Any decent zerg won't fall for that though or will just counter heal before obliterating you if you stay where you are.

And that's the main thing... The enemy can take you out far faster than you can bomb them, if only they react. No need for retaliation.

As I said before, retaliation only strengthens those who already are more powerful due to numbers, there is no need to have a way for passively killing attackers, the people in a zerg aren't incapable of fighting all of a sudden and can and should have to defend themselves actively. Anything else is just lazy and wrong.

 

> @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> So, from my point of view, ALL is related with teamwork. The whole purpose of retaliation is to discourage **mindless AoE dps spamming**. WvW is based on group fights therefore, you should be thinking about group sinergy necessary to overcome problems other than just asking for nerfs.

So we have mindless boon spam and healing against damage while the enemy kills themselves, instead of having to fight back?

Where does that involve teamwork by the way? Isn't it more teamwork to coordinate with your zerg to drop a sneaky bomb on the enemy zerg's rear or such? But you can't do that if you will just kill yourself by doing so... The team work argument can go both ways here, so I don't see it make much sense in regard to this topic.

Besides, group fights is one thing, but retaliation is just one factor in encouraging massive blobs, in my opinion, as the bigger your blob is, the more likely you will have the "correct" classes. Small groups on the other hand have to make due with what they got. Don't see encouraging bigger and bigger groups as really helpful for WvW.

 

If there are problems with too much AE damage, then there needs to be a change to that. Not a boon that is nothing but a cheap way for the enemy to defend themselves, without actually defending themselves. People always talk about the skill involved, getting good at the game. There's no such thing for retaliation, simple as that.

Personally I think the AE damage has gotten less impactful compared to before the patch, saw some melee zergs cutting right through their enemies.

 

I don't see much point in constantly repeating myself though...

Not to mention ... you didn't elaborate on how to learn to stop attacking once the AEs are down by the way.

 

EDIT:

Fixed two sentences of the first paragraph.

Cleared up sentence in third paragraph.

[Davy McDave.8532]

Don't go for multihits if you're killing yourself because of your opponent's Retal, go for beefy skills that hit once or strip the retal. Use your head, c'mon.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Even if you believe that applying perma retal to your zerg is somehow "skillful", there is currently no argument against a retal nerf. All direct damage and condi damage was nerfed. Retal remaining the same is a huge oversight and provides a massive advantage compared to before. Another oversight is downed skill damage not being nerfed as well. Certain down states are quite powerful right now because of this.

 

Well the other day I spent about an hour defending a T3 against 10 or so attempts. Several times, but one in particular that stood out, they built catas just outside outer, and on my burn DH I stepped onto the ledge (after popping stab) and dropped SoJ on the 2 catas built right next to one another; I was able to put down two casts of SoJ and then hopped back before taking any damage from below. My health dropped to about 30% from just the retaliation, which for me seems a bit excessive. Now some might say that it's not an issue, given you only dropped to 30% - it didn't kill you or anything. True. But there were several other times when I did take some aoe/splash damage while attempting the same thing, and either barely escaped with my F2 or was downed. But in every case, it was retaliation doing the bulk of the damage.

 

I'm ok with reflects and eating damage when I'm not paying attention, and even then, you can still dodge your own reflected projectiles. But this seems excessive, and frankly, I would conclude it was always excessive, at least against any ability that can hit multiple targets in quick succession (eg. Meteor Shower, Sword of Justice) from what is essentially a passively applied defence, since retaliation is usually tacked on with other abilities like stability (Hallowed Ground, Stand your Ground, Portent of Freedom).

 

I would be more accepting of retaliation was if Guards, etc, had to use a utility that only granted ret, but since what they are actually doing is keeping stability up, and the same abilities give ret for free, give it an ICD or a damage cap, even if it only hard counters a small number of abilities. It's mindless and skilless in its application, out of line with the impact it can have against certain professions.

[Brujeria.7536]

Retal is badly designed as it punishes good skill usage, especially in zergs. If an ele gets some good casts of, or a necro gets a good wellbomb of the players should be rewarded and not punished due to a overuse in both application and duration of retal. There is a difference between skillfull application of retaliation to punish incoming multi hit attacks which is good, but in the current state its just all over the place.

 

Retal should be as scarce as stability in WvW

[Kovu.7560]

Give it an icd, have it tick only once during that time and _increase_ the damage to compensate. It should be relevant if a single player has it up, but spamming AoE group retal isn't exactly high tier play and shouldn't obliterate someone dropping a bubble/reflect/pulsing damage.

 

~ Kovu