Leveling and Tutorialization Revamp - New Player Initiative to accompany New Playable Race

[Eddy.7051]

There is speculation in our community that we may get to play as Tengu, a new playable race, in the upcoming third expansion. With this in mind, I propose a revamp to the Central Tyrian leveling design. If/when news spreads around the gaming community that GW2 will release a third expansion with a new playable race, it will appeal to many gamers who have never tried GW2 because they felt it was too late for them to get into an MMORPG where they may never catch up to veteran players. Those new players, and veteran players leveling Tengu alts without tomes, should have a leveling experience that is at the quality of GW2's expansion/living world content, and the tutorialization during the leveling experience should better prepare new players for raids/fractals/strike missions and competitive modes.

 

My intent in this designed is to stretch out the pacing of introduced combat mechanics and to make the leveling design more structured and consistent. Revamping the pacing should (A) improve the sense of progression from levels 1 to 80 rather than front-loading new abilities in the early levels, (B) give new players more time to learn, practice, and be challenged with specific combat mechanics before being introduced to new combat mechanics in an effort to prevent new players from being overwhelmed with the in-depth action combat system, and © give veteran players a refreshing/new combat experience in leveling zones by adding build limitations and not just stat caps. These limitations can also create new opportunities for build craft by having meta builds (which are unnecessary in open world PvE, but they are fun to craft) that differ between each of the leveling zone tiers.

 

**Tier 1 (Levels 1-20) Zones**: Metrica Province (Maguuma), Caledon Forest (Maguuma), Potential New Zone for Tengu (Kryta), Queensdale (Kryta), Wayfarer Foothills (Shiverpeaks), and Plains of Ashford (Ascalon)

* Unlocked Abilities: Weapon Skills and Healing Skill

* Level 1: Weapon Skill 1 and Healing Skill

* Level 2: Weapon Skill 2

* Level 5: Weapon Skill 3

* Level 10: Weapon Skill 4

* Level 15: Weapon Skill 5

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 1 Zone: Map/Compass, Scouts, Waypoints, Map Completion, and Dynamic Event Alerts

* Level 15 Tutorial: Food/Utility Items, Crafting, Gathering, and Salvaging

 

**Tier 2 (Levels 20-35) Zones**: Brisban Wildlands (Maguuma), Kessex Hills (Kryta), Snowden Drifts (Shiverpeaks), and Diessa Plateau (Ascalon)

* Unlocked Abilities: Downed Skills, Utility Skill, Minor Traits, and Tier 1 Abilities

* Level 20: Downed Skill 1, Downed Skill 4, and Minor Traits 1 within Specialization Line 1

* Level 25: Downed Skill 2, Utility Skill 1, and Minor Traits 2 within Specialization Line 1

* Level 30: Downed Skill 3 and Minor Traits 3 within Specialization Line 1

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 2 Zone by at least level 20: Inventory, Junk, Wallet, and Bank/Materials Storage

* Level 30 Tutorial: Downed, Defeated, Rally, and Revive

 

**Tier 3 (Levels 35-50) Zones**: Bloodtide Coast (Maguuma - Chantry of Secrets), Gendarran Fields (Kryta - Vigil Keep), Lornar's Pass (Shiverpeaks - Durmand Priory Monastery), and Fields of Ruin (Ascalon)

* Unlocked Abilities: Profession Skills, Utility Skills, Minor Traits, and Tier 1-2 Abilities

* Level 35: Stage 1 Profession Skills and Minor Traits 1 within Specialization Line 2

* Level 40: Stage 2 Profession Skills, Utility Skill 2, and Minor Traits 2 within Specialization Line 2

* Level 45: Stage 3 Profession Skills and Minor Traits 3 within Specialization Line 2

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 3 Zone by at least level 35: Gem Store, Trading Post, and Mail

* Level 45 Tutorial: Boons, Conditions, and Reading Effect Icons above your Skill Bar

 

**Tier 4 (Levels 50-65) Zones**: Sparkfly Fen (Maguuma), Harathi Hinterlands (Kryta), Dredgehaunt Cliffs (Shiverpeaks), Timberline Falls (Shiverpeaks), Blazeridge Steppes (Ascalon), and Iron Marches (Ascalon)

* Unlocked Abilities: Dodge, Utility Skills, Major Traits, and Tier 1-3 Abilities

* Level 50: Dodge, Endurance Bar 1, and Major Traits 1 within Specialization Line 1

* Level 55: Endurance Bar 2, Utility Skill 3, and Major Traits 2 within Specialization Line 1

* Level 60: Major Traits 3 within Specialization Line 1

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 4 Zone by at least level 50: Wardrobe, Dyes, and Miniatures

* Level 60 Tutorial: Telegraphs/Dodging, Combo Fields/Finishers, and Reading Skill Descriptions

 

**Tier 5 (Levels 65-80) Zones**: Mount Maelstrom (Maguuma), Southsun Cove (Kryta), Frostgorge Sound (Shiverpeaks), and Fireheart Rise (Ascalon)

* Unlocked Abilities: Weapon Swap, Elite Skill, Major Traits, and Tier 1-4 Abilities

* Level 65: Weapon Swap and Major Traits 1 within Specialization Line 2

* Level 70: Elite Skill and Major Traits 2 within Specialization Line 2

* Level 75: Major Traits 3 within Specialization Line 2

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 5 Zone by at least level 65: Friends List, LFG, and Guild Panel

* Level 75 Tutorial: Enemy Rank, Defiance Bar, Control Effects, and Reading Descriptions/Effect Icons under Enemy/Ally Health Bar

 

**Tier 6 (Level 80) Zones**: 3 Central Tyrian Orrian Zones, Living World Zones, and Expansion Zones

* Unlocked Abilities: Specialization Line and Tier 1-5 Abilities

* Level 80: Specialization Line 3

* UI Tips upon entering Tier 6 Zone by at least level 80: PvP, WvW, and Fractals of the Mists

* Level 80 Tutorial: Build Templates, Equipment Templates, and Equipment Quality

 

**Additional Details and Logistics**

* The three stages of unlocking Profession Skills will vary for each profession. Some professions are more hindered without their profession skills, like Elementalists and Necromancers, in Tier 1-2 Zones compared to other professions. This imbalance should be fine as long as balance is achieved in Tier 6 Zones.

* Guardian and Engineer: F1 (Stage 1), F2 (Stage 2), and F3 (Stage 3)

* Elementalist and Mesmer: F1 and F2 (Stage 1), F3 (Stage 2), and F4 (Stage 3)

* Ranger: F1 and F3 (Stage 1), F2 (Stage 2), and F4 (Stage 3)

* Revenant: F1 (Stage 1), F2 (Stage 2), and N/A (Stage 3)

* Warrior: F1 and 1 Adrenaline Bar (Stage 1), 2 Adrenaline Bars (Stage 2), and 3 Adrenaline Bars (Stage 3)

* Thief: F1, F2 , and 1/3 of Stolen Skills (Stage 1), 2/3 of Stolen Skills (Stage 2), and 3/3 of Stolen Skills (Stage 3)

* Necromancer: F1 and Shroud Skill 1 (Stage 1), Shroud Skills 2 and 3 (Stage 2), and Shroud Skills 4 and 5 (Stage 3)

* Characters will not be limited by their downscaled level, but they will be limited by the tier of the zone. For example, a level 80 character will be not be able to use Elite Skills in Tier 1-4 Zones. But, the level 80 character will be able to use Elite Skills in any part of a Tier 5 Zone, even if in some parts of that Tier 5 zone they are downscaled below level 70. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you enjoy adapting your build to various circumstances), level 80 characters will not have access to all of their abilities in Tier 1-5 Zones. More importantly, level 80 characters will not be able to play elite specializations in Tier 1-5 Zones because the third specialization line would only be available in Tier 6 Zones.

* Characters who unlock Weapon Swap will only be able to Weapon Swap in Tier 1-4 Zones while out of combat. Characters who have not unlocked Weapon Swap will not be able to Weapon Swap in combat or out of combat.

* To control the pace of leveling and unlocking abilities, characters will no longer receive leveling experience from Tier 1-5 Zones when they reach or pass the max level of the zone's tier. Instead of receiving experience, those characters will receive additional progression towards the map's Bonus Reward Track. Hypothetically if a player leveled their character from levels 1 to 35 in a Tier 1 Zone, then they would be bombarded with tutorials and unlocked abilities when they enter a Tier 2 Zone. Capping leveling experience prevents this bombardment, and it encourages players to move on to the next tier if they wish to continue progressing their character without punishing them too hard because they will still be rewarded with sellable materials rather than unlocking new abilities. This will also limit Central Tyrian Mastery experience to the 3 Orrian zones.

* Abilities that unlock at the minimum level of a tiered zone will only unlock upon entering the respective tiered zone. For example, characters who reach level 20 within a Tier 1 Zone will not unlock the ability to enter the Downed State until they enter a Tier 2 Zone at level 20. If a character unlocks the Downed State after entering a Tier 2 Zone, they will not be able to enter the Downed State when they revisit a Tier 1 Zone. Additionally, if a character enters a Tier 2 Zone before level 20, they will not be able to enter the Downed State within the Tier 2 Zone until they reach level 20. Every 5 levels when a character unlocks a new ability in the appropriately tiered zone, they will receive a bouncy icon at the bottom-right of their window that notifies them of all the new abilities they unlocked at the respective level.

* Tutorials can be emphasized similarly to how the Personal Story is emphasized. Tutorials can be instanced, with similar interface notifications as the Personal Story (colored starburst on the map along with a guide/description in the top-right alerts column), and completion of the tutorials should grant tempting rewards (like a unique set of armor skins with one skin rewarded per tier in all six tiers). Tutorial alerts/starburst will remain active until the first character on an account completes all six tutorials. Then, subsequent characters will be able to complete tutorials for rewards and reminders, but it will not be as emphasized for subsequent characters. Characters who already completed tutorials should also be able to replay tutorials without receiving rewards.

* Currently, leveling players receive a bouncy notification every level. These notifications are too frequent, and many players do not pay close attention to these notifications. Less frequent and less wordy notifications should capture more attention from new/learning players. Instanced tutorials should also ensure players pay attention to the teaching materials, rather than giving players pop-up notifications with wordy descriptions for the various tools/systems in the game in the middle of hostile zones. To make the level-ups between the 5 level intervals feel significant, players may receive a small notification of a minor stat upgrade for the levels in between, or players may receive a bouncy chest with decent leveling loot for every level in between.

* These proposed changes to accessibility of traits should come with changes to the specialization interface. For example, while minor traits are accessible and major traits are inaccessible, major traits should be darkened or removed from the specialization interface to make it visibly clear that only minor traits are active in the respective zone. The order of how core profession traits are unlocked should also be reorganized so that all minor traits within a specialization are unlocked before any major traits are unlocked. The specialization interface may also prevent characters from using Hero Points to unlock a major trait until the character reaches level 50.

* Some traits that affect dodging, profession skills, or weapon swapping will be accessible before those combat mechanics are accessible. It is part of the learning curve for players to figure out which traits are applicable and most effective for them at the various states of their build.

* Racial skills, which are already unavailable to Revenants, should be removed from all professions' healing, utility, and elite skills. Racial skills should be converted into Special Action Abilities that are available at key locations throughout the leveling zones. For example, Norn characters should be able to use the Special Action Key near one of Wolf's shrines scattered throughout Shiverpeaks Tier 1-5 Zones to temporarily shape-shift into Wolf Form. For additional flavor, Wolf Form could also be exclusive to Norn characters who chose Wolf Spirit in their Biography during the character creation process. Converting Racial Skills into Special Action Abilities gives the opportunity to teach players how to use the Special Action Key.

* New dynamic events should be added to certain leveling zones to speed up the leveling process between renown hearts.

* The Tier 1 crafting tutorial should emphasize crafting in conjunction with leveling to speed up the leveling process.

* Renown hearts should be added to Southsun Cove, and Southsun Cove should be doubled in size to be comparable to other Tier 5 maps.

* Bloodtide Coast is classified as a Maguuma Zone rather than a Kryta Zone so the Maguuma region can have a Tier 3 Zone. Bloodtide Coast could use a bit more Sylvari and Asuran influence to give it that Maguuma feel like the other Maguuma Zones.

* The Shiverpeaks and Ascalon regions have extra Tier 4 Zones because the Maguuma and Kryta regions (will potentially have) extra Tier 1 Zones.

* Tier 1-5 Zones without a world boss or dungeon could use a world boss.

* This design for tutorialization does not address several tools/systems that are either not applicable to the core game (strike missions, raids, mounts, and gliders) or are better to be discovered rather than highlighted (world bosses, achievements/collections, and explorable mode dungeon paths). Story mode dungeon paths should continue to be encouraged and highlighted through the Mail system by the character's mentor and member of Destiny's Edge, while all explorable mode dungeon paths should be limited to level 80 characters. Story mode dungeon paths should also utilize tiered ability limitations and be balanced around the new minimum level requirements below. Additionally, it should be more encouraged for players to complete story mode dungeon paths before they reach The Ruined City of Arah story mode path during their Personal Story.

* Ascalonian Catacombs: Tier 3, Level 35 Requirement

* Caudecus’s Manor: Tier 3, Level 40 Requirement

* Twilight Arbor: Tier 3, Level 45 Requirement

* Sorrow’s Embrace: Tier 4, Level 55 Requirement

* Citadel of Flame: Tier 5, Level 65 Requirement

* Honor of the Waves: Tier 5, Level 70 Requirement

* Crucible of Eternity: Tier 5, Level 75 Requirement

* The Ruined City of Arah: Tier 6, Level 80 Requirement during the Personal Story

 

Edit: As anticipated, no existing players want added limitations to their current experience in Central Tyrian leveling zones. I encourage these veteran players to have an open mind and consider how these changes could benefit a new player's ability to learn and practice the combat mechanics in this game. Additionally, these changes do not rely on a new playable race. Revamping tutorialization and the leveling experience should happen regardless of whether or not a new playable race is added to the game. Tutorial achievements are too hidden and not obvious enough to new players.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If the Devs did that, we either wouldn't get anything else in the expansion, or it would be 5 years before the expansion released.

And really, no dodging until Level 50? Would all those maps before Tier 4 be super easy, then? No XP when down-leveled? Who would ever re-visit a lower-level map? Sounds like a way to empty maps for new players.

 

This may be something better suited to an entirely new game (in my opinion, anyway).

[Eddy.7051]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> If the Devs did that, we either wouldn't get anything else in the expansion, or it would be 5 years before the expansion released.

Most of these changes involve tweaking numbers and systems. Yes, changing code (especially old spaghetti code) takes time. But, the only new content I'm asking for would be creating 6 tutorial instances, modifying text tips here and there, and expanding Southsun Cove. I do acknowledge that this would take away development from creating new maps for expansion 3. But, I'd be fine with only 2-3 new level 80 maps in the expansion if we also get a new Tengu capital city, Tengu leveling zone, and updates to the new player experience.

 

> And really, no dodging until Level 50? Would all those maps before Tier 4 be super easy, then? No XP when down-leveled? Who would ever re-visit a lower-level map? Sounds like a way to empty maps for new players.

Many players dodge once to get to get to the boots chest in their leveling zone, and then never dodge again. This is because they are never reminded to dodge again and they are never challenged to dodge. Central Tyria is already brain dead easy due to the power creep that has happened gradually since launch. Adding these restrictions would make the leveling experience somewhat more challenging. It is also important to dedicate more than one moment to teaching players to dodge. If an entire leveling zone only introduces dodging to them, and then that is followed by a tutorial all about dodging and telegraphs, they are more likely to remember that at level 60 than they are to remember a single chest at level 5.

 

As for no down-leveled experience, getting Map Bonus Rewards is the only reason many veteran players revisit old maps unless they're doing world bosses. If you asked the average player, would you rather get 1 spirit shard or 1 rare material that sells decently on the Trading Post, what would the average player want?

 

[Poormany.4507]

That sounds very complicated for players, and creating all the new skill/ ability unlock restrictions would probably be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Anet to do at this point in the game. The restrictions on skills seem like a very big annoyance to anyone leveling more than one character. and would just make people avoid lower level areas as much as possible or just level-80 boost past them entirely.

 

I like their recent achievement approach to tutorials, and feel like adding onto those would be more effective, less resource and time consuming, and less restrictive to players.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I strongly disagree with just about everything proposed here. It makes unlocking abilities and skills even more of a chore, removes more than a few of the motivations to return to older maps, puts unnecessary limitations on exploration, hampers combat, would require significant dev time and work that could go to something better, and is all built on the assumption that there is going to be a new playable race, something that at this point in time is incredibly unlikely.

[Eddy.7051]

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> It makes unlocking abilities and skills even more of a chore

In the current state of the game, you will unlock all abilities by level 80 if you complete 0 hero point challenges. In my proposed state, you will unlock all abilities by level 80 if you complete 0 hero point challenges. Where is the extra chore/effort to unlock abilities?

 

> removes more than a few of the motivations to return to older maps

Why do you return to older maps now? Do you return to older maps to farm spirit shards? If so, then your spirit shard farm would be faster in living world maps. Otherwise, my proposed design will boost bonus map rewards giving more of an incentive to return to older maps.

 

> puts unnecessary limitations on exploration

How? This doesn't change the freedom anyone has to explore any map they like.

 

> all built on the assumption that there is going to be a new playable race

Tutorialization and the new player experience needs to improved regardless of whether or not a new playable race is added to the game.

[Cyninja.2954]

Issue 1:

This entire topic is based on pure rumors. It's fine to hope and wish, but if you are starting to make suggestions for grand changes which in and of themselves are unlikely to happen even if a new race was not rumored, that's a new level of commitment (and absolutely unrealistic).

 

Issue 2:

The proposed changes are in no way better than the current system. Limiting player skills and access to them simply makes the early levels even more boring.

 

Issue 3:

Racial skills do not need this type of change.

 

Issue 4:

Many of the suggested changes are absoultely unintuitive and only make sense when implemented with the knowledge of a currently veteran player. Basically making them useless or even a detriment to a new player (skill and avility unlocks based on level AND zone? Good luck explaining that to a new player. Limited access to professuom specific skills until as far as level 80? Makes just as little sense to a new player).

 

 

Final point:

IF there is a new race (and that remains a huge IF, yes I get it, Woodenpotatoes got you all riled up and basically sure there will be one). It would be far better to create a limited new player leveling experience linked to that race (aka own starting zone which is both new and in line with what players should experience for the first hours). This would:

- require far less resources than these suggestions

- add actual new content for all players

- allow for a fresh and new focus instead of reworking old content yet again

- probably reach just as many players (maybe even more, since I'm sure a lot of veteran players would give the new race a try. Some of which could use a tutorial on this games systems)

- allow thematic/lore wise limitations as to sensibly implement a new race (think Factions or Nightfall in GW1, where characters from those expansions had their own starting areas). It is highly unlikely a new race will get thousands of lines of dialogue added for old content

[Thorstienn.1642]

Just a hard no.

[yoni.7015]

It’s a no from me

[kharmin.7683]

Add me to the "nope" group.

[kratan.4619]

Please for the love of Mike no new races.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

Yeah, no. Even if we get a new race, I would still say no to this proposal.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Wow are you delusional in your hype hopes.

[Eddy.7051]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> skill and avility unlocks based on level AND zone? Good luck explaining that to a new player. Limited access to professuom specific skills until as far as level 80? Makes just as little sense to a new player.

 

After skill/abilities are unlocked, they would only be limited by tier and not by tier and level. Downscaling would not limit skill availability in parts of a map.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "profession specific skills". If you are referring to F1-5 abilities, my design clearly shows all of those abilities are unlocked between levels 35 to 45.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > skill and avility unlocks based on level AND zone? Good luck explaining that to a new player. Limited access to professuom specific skills until as far as level 80? Makes just as little sense to a new player.

>

> After skill/abilities are unlocked, they would only be limited by tier and not by tier and level. Downscaling would not limit skill availability in parts of a map.

>

> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "profession specific skills". If you are referring to F1-5 abilities, my design clearly shows all of those abilities are unlocked between levels 35 to 45.

>

>

 

Okay I misunderstood that. Doesn't change the main argument: it's convoluted, un-intuitive and most important: unnecessary. It's barely understandable for a veteran player who knows what you are talking about.

 

I think you are trying to push a system which is neither in any way better (I still fail to see where the benefit here lies), nor does it make sense to work on 7-8 year old content.

 

You won't get any veteran interested in this old content only because they now can use LESS skills. Even less if they've done the content hundreds of times.

 

Any new player, as mentioned, would be far better served with a new area and potentially unique race progression. Similar to how GW1 and other MMORPGs have done it (see Death Knights in WoW which have their own leveling area).

[Eddy.7051]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> I think you are trying to push a system which is neither in any way better (I still fail to see where the benefit here lies), nor does it make sense to work on 7-8 year old content.

The goal of stretching out skill availability is to slow down the pace that new players are introduced to combat mechanics and to accompany each tier with a tutorial instance where they practice and are given tips on those specific new abilities that were introduced in that tier. Spreading out trait availability is not as necessary, but I do feel that helps with the sense of progression. In my casual/nooby guilds, I've heard many new players feel leveling from 40-80 felt unimpactful to them because they felt they already unlocked almost everything, and the stat boosts that occur while leveling never felt noticeable to them because the world is scaled in a way where you're never too overpowered.

 

Unfortunately, I know in my guilds, and I've seen too frequently in end game open world content, Elementalists who never attunement swap, players who only use their weapon skills and they spam them on cool down (like a longbow Ranger who uses knock back without purpose), players who use abilities (and not just auto attack) on invulnerable foes, players who do not use skills while moving or do not dodge out of red circles, players who never weapon swap in combat, players who do not WP when dead because they do not realize reviving the dead in combat takes too long compared to reviving the downed, and players who do not realize rallying is often more efficient than reviving. I've often encounter a few of these mistakes in T4 daily fractals as well. Somehow people obtain full ascended gear without understanding their fundamental combat mechanics. I see some people thinking my suggestions would make the game more boring or easy, but no. Limitations would literally make the game marginally more challenging, but the game is already brain dead easy enough for auto attackers to get to expansion content and obtain max stat gear. Currently the game introduces all combat mechanics to players around level 30, and these concepts are only briefly introduce, never reintroduced/reinforced, and never guided with practice. The Central Tyrian experience is intended to be one big tutorial to prepare you for Orr, dungeons/FotM, and competitive modes as they try to provide tutorial tips in bouncy chests every time a character levels up. The problem is these players either gloss over the tutorial tips and never retain the information (because it's information without guided practice), or they just select their loot and never look at the tutorial tips.

[kharmin.7683]

To me, this seems more like a solution looking for a problem.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> snip

 

Okay, I am going to summarize what I assume your attempted solution is:

- depriving players of skills both in an attempt to not overburden them with new skills as well as redistribute those skills, abilities and traits over more levels in the hopes of encouraging players actually engage with the content, thus gain a better understanding

 

I would have to disagree. While I agree that the core Tyria experience is severely lacking in preparing players for this games more challenging content, past and current experience have shown that this is more a factor of individual player motivation and desire to learn first and foremost.

 

When HoT was introduced, instead of adapting and learning or improving, part of the player base simply avoided the content. Those players will never get converted into being more skillful or adept, no matter how hard one tries. That might not even be needed, if a player wants to only barely scratch this games surface and just spend a few minutes/hours on open world things, that is their right. The same observation was to be made with the open world boss reworks which were supposed to make bosses more challenging.

 

At the same time, changing core areas to dramatically, would alienate players who enjoy them as they are now. The net benefit to veterans is small if at all.

 

I personally would recommend to have a well made new starter area which addresses issues in a new and ideally better way. This has the benefit of both targeting new players (who hopefully join the game then) as well as veteran players of all calibers (some just to see the new content, others maybe to actually improve).

[Poormany.4507]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I think you are trying to push a system which is neither in any way better (I still fail to see where the benefit here lies), nor does it make sense to work on 7-8 year old content.

> The goal of stretching out skill availability is to slow down the pace that new players are introduced to combat mechanics and to accompany each tier with a tutorial instance where they practice and are given tips on those specific new abilities that were introduced in that tier. Spreading out trait availability is not as necessary, but I do feel that helps with the sense of progression. In my casual/nooby guilds, I've heard many new players feel leveling from 40-80 felt unimpactful to them because they felt they already unlocked almost everything, and the stat boosts that occur while leveling never felt noticeable to them because the world is scaled in a way where you're never too overpowered.

>

> Unfortunately, I know in my guilds, and I've seen too frequently in end game open world content, Elementalists who never attunement swap, players who only use their weapon skills and they spam them on cool down (like a longbow Ranger who uses knock back without purpose), players who use abilities (and not just auto attack) on invulnerable foes, players who do not use skills while moving or do not dodge out of red circles, players who never weapon swap in combat, players who do not WP when dead because they do not realize reviving the dead in combat takes too long compared to reviving the downed, and players who do not realize rallying is often more efficient than reviving. I've often encounter a few of these mistakes in T4 daily fractals as well. Somehow people obtain full ascended gear without understanding their fundamental combat mechanics. I see some people thinking my suggestions would make the game more boring or easy, but no. Limitations would literally make the game marginally more challenging, but the game is already brain dead easy enough for auto attackers to get to expansion content and obtain max stat gear. Currently the game introduces all combat mechanics to players around level 30, and these concepts are only briefly introduce, never reintroduced/reinforced, and never guided with practice. The Central Tyrian experience is intended to be one big tutorial to prepare you for Orr, dungeons/FotM, and competitive modes as they try to provide tutorial tips in bouncy chests every time a character levels up. The problem is these players either gloss over the tutorial tips and never retain the information (because it's information without guided practice), or they just select their loot and never look at the tutorial tips.

 

To me the problem doesn't seem to be players not knowing mechanics, just players not using them properly or at all. I don't think more tutorial instances would solve this problem, because as soon as players finish the required tutorials, there is still no need to use any of the mechanics you mentioned except if you're playing hardcore and maximizing DPS or raiding (a small minority of players). There will always be players in GW2 who just spam 1 and get away with it if possible. I don't think GW2 could or should solve this problem at this point as it would require an entirely different game and playerbase to accomplish. Maybe add small breakbar, etc. tutorials, similar to the existing dodge tutorial, to just let players know these mechanics exist, but anything more just seems like a waste of dev time and resources.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I think you are trying to push a system which is neither in any way better (I still fail to see where the benefit here lies), nor does it make sense to work on 7-8 year old content.

> The goal of stretching out skill availability is to slow down the pace that new players are introduced to combat mechanics and to accompany each tier with a tutorial instance where they practice and are given tips on those specific new abilities that were introduced in that tier. Spreading out trait availability is not as necessary, but I do feel that helps with the sense of progression. In my casual/nooby guilds, I've heard many new players feel leveling from 40-80 felt unimpactful to them because they felt they already unlocked almost everything, and the stat boosts that occur while leveling never felt noticeable to them because the world is scaled in a way where you're never too overpowered.

>

> Unfortunately, I know in my guilds, and I've seen too frequently in end game open world content, Elementalists who never attunement swap, players who only use their weapon skills and they spam them on cool down (like a longbow Ranger who uses knock back without purpose), players who use abilities (and not just auto attack) on invulnerable foes, players who do not use skills while moving or do not dodge out of red circles, players who never weapon swap in combat, players who do not WP when dead because they do not realize reviving the dead in combat takes too long compared to reviving the downed, and players who do not realize rallying is often more efficient than reviving. I've often encounter a few of these mistakes in T4 daily fractals as well. Somehow people obtain full ascended gear without understanding their fundamental combat mechanics. I see some people thinking my suggestions would make the game more boring or easy, but no. Limitations would literally make the game marginally more challenging, but the game is already brain dead easy enough for auto attackers to get to expansion content and obtain max stat gear. Currently the game introduces all combat mechanics to players around level 30, and these concepts are only briefly introduce, never reintroduced/reinforced, and never guided with practice. The Central Tyrian experience is intended to be one big tutorial to prepare you for Orr, dungeons/FotM, and competitive modes as they try to provide tutorial tips in bouncy chests every time a character levels up. The problem is these players either gloss over the tutorial tips and never retain the information (because it's information without guided practice), or they just select their loot and never look at the tutorial tips.

 

So, players don't play the way you think they should play, and so, they need to revamp the entire game to suit what you believe will make players play the way you think they should?

 

This is flawed, to the core flawed. For one thing, how do I know that the way you think players should play is the "right way"? 99% of the time, what JoeCasual is doing over there has absolutely no bearing on what I'm doing. The exceptions would be small group focused content, raids, fractals et al, or PvP/WvW content. What if JoeCasual isn't looking to be in either of these? What if they want to spend their game time flower sniffing their way through the OW content, play their stories, and just chill out? It seems to me that you're trying to claim they have no business on the same maps you're playing, even if they've managed, no matter how casually, to get there on their own. With regard to "but they do things I don't like, don't do things I think they should", they've managed to get to where they are doing what they're doing. It may well be that they hit a wall, at some point, and can't advance any further. At that point, they'll either roll a new toon, or maybe start looking into what they could do differently, if they decide they want to improve enough to get through that wall.

 

You can't force this, no matter how hard you try. If they're casual enough not to read some of the tooltips that state "X effect for Y time when swapping to this weapon", but good enough to progress, they're not going to think they need to. That Ele may well have found that the current attunement has made them all but invulnerable to what ever point it is that you're paying more attention to what they're doing than is considered healthy in other circumstances. Again, with small group content, or competitive play, this grasp of mechanics is necessary, but for trolling around the OW, not so much. Their death, if it comes, will not cost me anything in the usual map zerg that is OW event farming, for example. They may stay dead because they don't realize that reviving won't cost them any rewards from whatever event, I know in my first week or so, that's what I thought: "If I revive, I'm going to lose my contribution", especially when the closest WP is too far away for me to get back before the fight ends. So they're not trying to inconvenience you, they just haven't discovered that you can just tag a bunch of mobs and go somewhere else and still get something for doing it. To be fair, that's not how it works in other MMOs, if you're not there, you're not getting paid.

 

"But many people don't dodge"? Oddly enough, I see a lot of people dodging, even when they don't necessarily have to. I'm going to have to conclude that this is one of those "made up" facts to support sweeping changes to the game to make players what you think they should be. As to people "standing in stupid", those red circles? Welcome to the wonderful world of MMOs. Nothing you do will change that some players believe that they are the crème de la crème of players, and the normal rules don't apply to them. Note that "standing in stupid" was a meme before memes were even popular, let alone the release of GW 2. My favorite example of this was in swtor, where we had one of those players that had all the BiS gear, and a Founder title, complaining about the gear scores of the healers. The first time they had to know what to do during a mechanics heavy section of a boss fight, they were dead, because they just stood in the stupid, expecting their gear to carry them through. I can take this back to around 2008ish, I've seen it as far back as I've been playing MMOs or even online games that aren't strictly MMOs, like Neverwinter Nights, the original BW game. Hell, my ex was really good at standing in stupid in Baldur's Gate... As a comical aside, I found myself the other day trying to dodge in swtor, and you can't, it's not a mechanic there...

 

So a resounding "No" from me as well, based on my own experiences with games and gamers over 20 or so years, you can't make everyone top tier, no matter how hard you try, because some players aren't interested, and some, despite being interested, already think they know better than someone else, no matter what the truth may be.

[Luthan.5236]

I think this game is already pretty easy to learn - compared to other MMORPGs. Yes the faster progression might make it feel like a lot of stuff is thrown at a new player at once or too fast ... but from what I remember back then in 2012 at release I did not have trouble.

 

Don't know about the system now cause I did not pay attention too much. (They changed a bit though ... back then weapon skills afaik where learned by using the weapon and core story could be done regardless of level - if you were just strong enough to manage it.)

 

Imo for the weapons I liked the unlocking by using them better. There should be a guide guiding the players in advance to the maps needed by there personal story (take into account the decisions they make that affect the future missions when they reached the next multiple of 10s of the levels ....).

 

Like: Some vigil story sends you to Fields of Ruin where you never might have been before (if not Charr ... Humans might only then learn about the portal in Rurikton). So ... going there is a better idea than to use other level 30-40 areas to level to 40.

[Eddy.7051]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> you can't make everyone top tier, no matter how hard you try

 

This is a gross exaggeration of what my design aims to do. My design doesn't show any advanced techniques or rotations. All tutorial instances aim to do is demonstrate the fundamental mechanics (dodging, reviving, combo-ing, breaking a break bar, and noticing effect icons) rather than sharing a one-time note of these mechanics in a pop-up window. People are more likely to retain/grasp information if it is guided in practice rather than if it is only noted on a fact sheet. I agree with you that slowing down the pace of being exposed to these abilities will not make anyone more or less likely to use abilities other than skills 1-3. But, for many new players it will give them a more gradual learning curve that is easier for them to digest because they can build on top of a more solid foundation of knowledge about the combat mechanics. With that solid foundation established in earlier tiers, there can be more openness to learning additional mechanics in higher tiers.

 

Several people are commenting saying the game is easy enough to learn for an MMORPG. The problem is most MMORPG players have already made up their minds about GW2. They usually either dropped the game because they were not hooked during the leveling experience, they weren't interested in it because it doesn't have much popularity on streaming sites or YouTube, or they already play it. A lot of the players I see starting GW2 now are console gamers or people who primarily played RPGs. For many incoming players now, this is their first MMORPG, and for a lot of those players this game is ambiguous to them in direction/purpose/guidance.They end up gravitating towards a more clear/digestible/streamline leveling experience like in ESO.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > you can't make everyone top tier, no matter how hard you try

>

> This is a gross exaggeration of what my design aims to do. My design doesn't show any advanced techniques or rotations. **All tutorial instances aim to do is demonstrate the fundamental mechanics (dodging, reviving, combo-ing, breaking a break bar, and noticing effect icons) rather than sharing a one-time note of these mechanics in a pop-up window. _People are more likely to retain/grasp information if it is guided in practice_ rather than if it is only noted on a fact sheet.** I agree with you that slowing down the pace of being exposed to these abilities will not make anyone more or less likely to use abilities other than skills 1-3. But, for many new players it will give them a more gradual learning curve that is easier for them to digest because they can build on top of a more solid foundation of knowledge about the combat mechanics. With that solid foundation established in earlier tiers, there can be more openness to learning additional mechanics in higher tiers.

>

> Several people are commenting saying the game is easy enough to learn for an MMORPG. The problem is most MMORPG players have already made up their minds about GW2. They usually either dropped the game because they were not hooked during the leveling experience, they weren't interested in it because it doesn't have much popularity on streaming sites or YouTube, or they already play it. A lot of the players I see starting GW2 now are console gamers or people who primarily played RPGs. For many incoming players now, this is their first MMORPG, and for a lot of those players this game is ambiguous to them in direction/purpose/guidance.They end up gravitating towards a more clear/digestible/streamline leveling experience like in ESO.

 

So how is this not trying to make everyone top tier again? Allow me to highlight just one example, I'll bold it. This is trying to teach people to play the way you've found "acceptable" for the content you want to run, and for my example of JoeCasual, something he may not care about at all. The thing is, I play ESO. The leveling experience is similar to here, in that you can go to most maps and be fine. In fact, once you complete a faction story, there's a bit where you do the other two faction stories, on the same character. The skills are locked to weapons within a class framework, hmm, seems somehow familiar, doesn't it? Short bows do something different on a Ranger than a Thief, for example.

 

The game is easy enough to learn. You're trying to force players to come to an understanding of the mechanics that some of them may not even need, let alone want. They may not want to be involved in Fractals, or Dungeons, or PvP/WvW. They may be perfectly content with what they're doing and how, and your dissatisfaction with that is irrelevant, both to them, and overall. People that are interested in nitty gritty will do the research, people that aren't, won't. This "system" is nothing more, or less, than an attempt to force all players into the same mold, see the italicized portion above in support of this.

 

I came to GW 2 because of a music video on YouTube. That "bard" thing at the end of my user name is there because at one time, I was an actual bard, so music attracts me, especially good stuff, and I know a game has me hooked well and truly when I wake up with a piece of music from it running through my head. None of that requires me to be an end game Fractal/Raid/PvP/WvW star. It just requires something about it holding my interest. Now, due to circumstances in my own life, I migrate games, a lot. I do so because I can spend more hours a week playing than some can spend in a month, and if I'm hooked in, I will. That has nothing to do with "but if you understood the mechanics, you'd stick around longer", it's just constant exposure burn out, and it can happen no matter how much I love a game.

[Eddy.7051]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> You're trying to force players to come to an understanding of the mechanics that some of them may not even need, let alone want.

 

Improving tutorialization is not "forcing" anyone to play differently. Tutorial instances are optional content to participate in, and in my design the incentive comes with a tangible reward (besides the more meaningful reward of improving one's skill and knowledge with the game). If someone feels this game should give them the freedom to auto attack from start to finish with absolutely no challenge, they are free to play run around open world leveling zones for as long as they desire. But, when those same players complain that HoT is too hard, their opinions should not be heard or supported.

 

If someone avoids all instanced, collaborative content (dungeons, fractals, strike missions, raids, etc.), they still cannot avoid moments of teamwork in the open world. This is an MMO and not a single-player RPG. There will be moments during a dynamic/meta event where the JoeCasual player will be present in the event, scale up the difficulty of the event by being present, and then contribute less to the fight than the impact of their scaling. So players who refuse to not "do the least" are burdening other players around them who are actually trying to succeed at events. My personal opinion and unrelated to my tutorialzation design, this game should not encourage the JoeCasuals who refuse to WP when they are dead, and the game should not encourage the JoeCasuals who refuse to CC on a break bar. That toxic casualness is more than dead weight to the group effort. That toxic casualness is a liability due to scaling.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"Brad.9730" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > You're trying to force players to come to an understanding of the mechanics that some of them may not even need, let alone want.

>

> Improving tutorialization is not "forcing" anyone to play differently. Tutorial instances are optional content to participate in, and in my design the incentive comes with a tangible reward (besides the more meaningful reward of improving one's skill and knowledge with the game). If someone feels this game should give them the freedom to auto attack from start to finish with absolutely no challenge, they are free to play run around open world leveling zones for as long as they desire. But, when those same players complain that HoT is too hard, their opinions should not be heard or supported.

 

 

>

> If someone avoids all instanced, collaborative content (dungeons, fractals, strike missions, raids, etc.), they still cannot avoid moments of teamwork in the open world. This is an MMO and not a single-player RPG. There will be moments during a dynamic/meta event where the JoeCasual player will be present in the event, scale up the difficulty of the event by being present, and then contribute less to the fight than the impact of their scaling. So players who refuse to not "do the least" are burdening other players around them who are actually trying to succeed at events. My personal opinion and unrelated to my tutorialzation design, this game should not encourage the JoeCasuals who refuse to WP when they are dead, and the game should not encourage the JoeCasuals who refuse to CC on a break bar. That toxic casualness is more than dead weight to the group effort. That toxic casualness is a liability due to scaling.

 

Here we are again with "they don't do the things I think they should do, so they shouldn't have any input, don't belong". This is my whole beef with your "system". **_You don't get to decide who's input is valid or not_**. If they're finding it hard, they should be able to say so, and then people can volunteer information on how to help them, which they can follow or ignore as they see fit.

 

I've already touched on this, in one of the posts where you decided you only needed one line to reply to. Their death, in an OW zerg has absolutely no impact on me, or you, other than you seem to be spending a lot more time worrying about what they're doing. If one person pushes an event out of your range, perhaps you should be spending more time playing your tutorials? Last night there were 40 some people doing events in Malachor's Leap, none of them seemed any harder than they were the last time, and I'm not entirely sure if everyone was pushing all the right buttons when they were supposed to be. I did my part, and that's all that I need to worry about.