wolverine.5164 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 itll be very clear and fast. "lesser endure pain" and "Lesser balanced stance" 300 sec cooldown is just a pathetic joke. (as simple as that). "full counter" been a "burst skill" and making no dmg is a joke, i dont give a dam if u have to remove the daze... it MUST DO dmg. "Bulls recharge" is fine. "Ramage" is fine. "Outrage" needs to be 20 sec colldown. "magebane tether" nerf hurt directly "might makes it right" so this trait is weaker than ever. besides this things i mention, any other changes should be minor... fix this nonesence and make warrior relevant again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. Full Counter is fine as is. It's actually extremely useful as a long daze. In WvW it is extremely powerful through Sigil of Draining especially. Just hitting it heals you for up to 9k health, removes and steals boons with another sigil. A defensive tool should never also be strong offensively. It used to deal 10k damage easily.. that's nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. > > Full Counter is fine as is. It's actually extremely useful as a long daze. In WvW it is extremely powerful through Sigil of Draining especially. Just hitting it heals you for up to 9k health, removes and steals boons with another sigil. A defensive tool should never also be strong offensively. It used to deal 10k damage easily.. that's nuts. I'd be okay with FC getting damage back, 2-3k on a crit only though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. > > > > Full Counter is fine as is. It's actually extremely useful as a long daze. In WvW it is extremely powerful through Sigil of Draining especially. Just hitting it heals you for up to 9k health, removes and steals boons with another sigil. A defensive tool should never also be strong offensively. It used to deal 10k damage easily.. that's nuts. > > I'd be okay with FC getting damage back, 2-3k on a crit only though. I would buff it together with the CC skills that lost their damage honestly. Give it some base damage, but make them NEVER crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. > > > > > > Full Counter is fine as is. It's actually extremely useful as a long daze. In WvW it is extremely powerful through Sigil of Draining especially. Just hitting it heals you for up to 9k health, removes and steals boons with another sigil. A defensive tool should never also be strong offensively. It used to deal 10k damage easily.. that's nuts. > > > > I'd be okay with FC getting damage back, 2-3k on a crit only though. > > I would buff it together with the CC skills that lost their damage honestly. Give it some base damage, but make them NEVER crit. I still think 2-3k is right crit or no crit, but yes damage needs to return to CC skills although the amount depends on the skill and what else it does, and the difficulty of using it of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siopao.7436 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Maybe make eviscerate have 450 range or get rid of the wind up. An enemy with swiftness can accidentally walk away. Such counterplay.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Adding like 2-3k crit damage with full zerker gear on hard cc skills is reasonable. It looks pathetic when e.g. backbreaker or headbutt visually hit hard but do like 50 damage... Alternatively, there could be added additional effect on e.g. Body Blow trait that deals damage when disabling a foe, like Lightning Rod trait that ele has. Full Counter is great skill that synergizes well with runes, sigils and traits so there isn't really need of damage on it. Longbow could use additional aoe field, maybe faster projectiles (including Combustive Shot) to be more competetive. There are some nice suggestions on forums already. Outrage CD reduction sounds good, maybe add some additional effect that can be used also outside of Berserk mode, like restoring 50 endurance when breaking stun or something. I miss adrenaline gain on rage skills :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. I'd like to finally see the source of this claim, because I keep seeing this thing repeated over and over again and the only answer I had was something along the lines of "it doesn't make sense otherwise!". Sure it doesn't, but sadly it also doesn't mean it's a placeholder. So can someone show me where anet said it's a placeholder or anything similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. > > I'd like to finally see the source of this claim, because I keep seeing this thing repeated over and over again and the only answer I had was something along the lines of "it doesn't make sense otherwise!". Sure it doesn't, but sadly it also doesn't mean it's a placeholder. > > So can someone show me where anet said it's a placeholder or anything similar? It was in one of the preview threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 @"Sobx.1758" https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1157564#Comment_1157564 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > @"Sobx.1758" https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1157564#Comment_1157564 oof, I guess not having it linked to see it for myself still left me sceptical and made it easier to forget about it already being answered, thanks for the reminder :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannelore.8153 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannelore.8153 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. Buddy, I'm the guy who quotes the soft trinity to others. The is no reason for skills like earthshaker to deal no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. > > Buddy, I'm the guy who quotes the soft trinity to others. The is no reason for skills like earthshaker to deal no damage. I don't know, it's still a leap with a 2 second aoe hard cc. If we give back dmg to that skill, what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? I think it's fine to put a greater value on utility of skills instead of spamming dmg off all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > > > > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > > > > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. > > > > Buddy, I'm the guy who quotes the soft trinity to others. The is no reason for skills like earthshaker to deal no damage. > > I don't know, it's still a leap with a 2 second aoe hard cc. If we give back dmg to that skill, what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? I think it's fine to put a greater value on utility of skills instead of spamming dmg off all of them. Except half of hammer is hard cc that now does no damage and most of it's skills are slow with large tells, the exact kind of thing where risk vs reward would dictate high rewards which are now not present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > > > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > > > > > > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. > > > > > > Buddy, I'm the guy who quotes the soft trinity to others. The is no reason for skills like earthshaker to deal no damage. > > > > I don't know, it's still a leap with a 2 second aoe hard cc. If we give back dmg to that skill, what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? I think it's fine to put a greater value on utility of skills instead of spamming dmg off all of them. > > Except half of hammer is hard cc that now does no damage and most of it's skills are slow with large tells, the exact kind of thing where risk vs reward would dictate high rewards which are now not present. Yes, half of hammer is hard cc, which still doesn't answer the question what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? Is it about how hard a weapon/class set is loaded with hard cc and if it's at least half then... give the dmg back to cc skills? I don't know about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > > > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > > > > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > > > > > > > > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. > > > > > > > > Buddy, I'm the guy who quotes the soft trinity to others. The is no reason for skills like earthshaker to deal no damage. > > > > > > I don't know, it's still a leap with a 2 second aoe hard cc. If we give back dmg to that skill, what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? I think it's fine to put a greater value on utility of skills instead of spamming dmg off all of them. > > > > Except half of hammer is hard cc that now does no damage and most of it's skills are slow with large tells, the exact kind of thing where risk vs reward would dictate high rewards which are now not present. > > Yes, half of hammer is hard cc, which still doesn't answer the question what arguments are there to not give the dmg back to the rest of cc skills? Is it about how hard a weapon/class set is loaded with hard cc and if it's at least half then... give the dmg back to cc skills? I don't know about that. For something like kick, which is only a hard CC, give it damage back. Bull's Charge, which is a gap closer and an evade? Not needed. My point was if a skill was just a hard CC but nothing else then either damage needs to be returned, and how much can certainly be debated, or there needs to be more things like Body Blow to augment them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > Please, no critical damage on CC skills, even if we bring them back. You shouldn't be able to run full glass builds and just completely destroy an opponent while chaining CC at the same time, that's the whole point of the nerf. > > > > > > Limiting them to Power and not Precision & Ferocity makes the damage more accessible, and manageable. > > Critting with them is fine, so long as damage does not exceed a certain point, and that point is relative to the skill. A 6k FC is out of the question, but not necessarily so for earthshaker. > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. Its important in the competitive modes that all three are present, but before these nerfs you only had Damage and Support; Control builds would have to be built as Damage in order to effectively use CC, due to their dependance on damage to be effective, restricting CC to Power allows more stat combinations to be used, and more build varieties to be used, without allowing Damage builds to beat Control builds at their own game. > > Please don't think of the game just in terms of Damage, that's what results in it becoming toxic. Then make it so Damage doesn't have access to stability/stunbreaks which counter Control (besides also having higher damage). Support should take care about Damage to defy Control. This way, Control doesn't need the missing damage if they actually can control Damage. CC skills (especially weapon ones) should do damage. It is not easy to come up with damage numbers because certain skills are much more likely to land than others, whether they have no telegraph or very short cast time. For example, compare Point-Blank Shot and Backbreaker. Which one is more likely to land depending on their cast times, telegraphs and things like range, etc? Which one requires better timing to land on enemy? Is it balanced if both deal same damage just because they both have hard cc? CC effect a skill has probably shouldn't dictate its damage but instead the telegraph of the skill should, how long the cast time is and in general, the difficulty of the skill to land. It also makes sense the other way around: strength of CC effect should be dictated by how telegraphed the skill is and its cast time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I think FC should deal zero damage in PvP or have increased CD. I think everyone would go with the earlier. Head butt I do not see any reason this skill not to deal full damage in PvP. Bulls charge, I think the damage should return and either remove the evade or reduce the CC to 2 sec. Hammer skills need to deal damage. Same for mace. These weapons are currently useless, aside from mace used for CC in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > The passive stances are just placeholders for reworked traits, they're getting changed eventually. > > I'd like to finally see the source of this claim, because I keep seeing this thing repeated over and over again and the only answer I had was something along the lines of "it doesn't make sense otherwise!". Sure it doesn't, but sadly it also doesn't mean it's a placeholder. > > So can someone show me where anet said it's a placeholder or anything similar? I can't find you a source because that would require more effort than I'd like to put into a reply at this time ;) But it's pretty obvious. They've also done this thing in the past where a trait was made so awful that you stop taking it because they have work planned for it. Most notably they did this to one of the mesmer GM traits. Switching numbers is very easy to do, so when they don't have time to change functionality they make a ridiculous number change on it instead. This way people can adjust ahead of time, learn to use something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. To me, it feels more like a _hard_ trinity of Bunker, Condition Damage and CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > > I think you misunderstand, the game is based around a soft trinity of Damage, Control and Support. > To me, it feels more like a _hard_ trinity of Bunker, Condition Damage and CC. > > Same trinity, just particular flavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now