Which class is underperforming? 5 vs 5

[bravan.3876]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> >lots of stuff

>

> I only saw it fast forwarding, so thanks for the resume of what mattered to me.

>

> From now on anyone that says mesmer is on a good state is either clueless or dishonest.

 

I like how you quote me. Straight reduced to the bare essentials xD

[Odik.4587]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Sznurek.8791" said:

> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.

> > > I don't get it.

> > Dw, thats happens when you, common sense and logic say good bye to each other.

> > >~~Mesmer~~ Misha is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).

> > >This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.

> > >But none of them was better than Misha at mesmer.

> > >And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that Misha ~~mesmer~~ is too weak and needs buffs?

> > > Misha ~~Mesmer~~ was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

> > Now it makes more sense

>

> Despite your claims....the amount of mesmers during this last tournament speaks for itself compared to the classes/specs you whine about....double revs, necs, tempest, firebrands, holos and mesmers with some thief....strange..I was expecting rangers with double bird one shotting everything accordingly to your "experiences"

>

> Ofc I am not stating that mesmer is OP or in the best spot ever...it's still far from the unplayable level few mesmer fanboys want us to believe

I also expected unkillable double REAPERS as you whined about before? Where are they?

Even team USA dumped mirage and Zero played necro, when he is rly rly good mirage... NA was worth watching, EU is not, mirages not found (there was few rangers with double birds (sadly roy didnt caught the game but gimples of it), who would thought it would be birds!?)

The only reason MIRAGE (not mesmer,obsly) is "viable" because its Misha (and PORTAL, again) with an amazing team who backs it up.

I'm not really surprised that you dont understand that at all, poor game knowledge and understanding overall, like other ppl who scream "MISHA WON MAT! Its viable!" , @"bravan.3876" analyzed this pretty well for clueless masses, good job tbh.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > >lots of stuff

> >

> > I only saw it fast forwarding, so thanks for the resume of what mattered to me.

> >

> > From now on anyone that says mesmer is on a good state is either clueless or dishonest.

>

> I like how you quote me. Straight reduced to the bare essentials xD

 

Not to be rude or anything. It's just that you express the same idea multiple times in order to explain something, kind of reminds me of my philosophy tests xD

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > >lots of stuff

> > >

> > > I only saw it fast forwarding, so thanks for the resume of what mattered to me.

> > >

> > > From now on anyone that says mesmer is on a good state is either clueless or dishonest.

> >

> > I like how you quote me. Straight reduced to the bare essentials xD

>

> Not to be rude or anything. It's just that you express the same idea multiple times in order to explain something, kind of reminds me of my philosophy tests xD

>

 

I didn't think you were rude no worries^^ I know i have the tendency to explain stuff unnecessary long and also repeat them with different words way too often. But when you look at how barely ppl still understand, then i am obviously still not explaining it easy and detailed enough... i am probably just bad in explaining!

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Sznurek.8791" said:

> > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.

> > > > I don't get it.

> > > Dw, thats happens when you, common sense and logic say good bye to each other.

> > > >~~Mesmer~~ Misha is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).

> > > >This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.

> > > >But none of them was better than Misha at mesmer.

> > > >And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that Misha ~~mesmer~~ is too weak and needs buffs?

> > > > Misha ~~Mesmer~~ was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

> > > Now it makes more sense

> >

> > Despite your claims....the amount of mesmers during this last tournament speaks for itself compared to the classes/specs you whine about....double revs, necs, tempest, firebrands, holos and mesmers with some thief....strange..I was expecting rangers with double bird one shotting everything accordingly to your "experiences"

> >

> > Ofc I am not stating that mesmer is OP or in the best spot ever...it's still far from the unplayable level few mesmer fanboys want us to believe

> I also expected unkillable double REAPERS as you whined about before? Where are they?

> Even team USA dumped mirage and Zero played necro, when he is rly rly good mirage... NA was worth watching, EU is not, mirages not found (there was few degenerangers with double birds (sadly roy didnt caught the game but gimples of it), who would thought!?)

> The only reason MIRAGE (not mesmer,obsly) is "viable" because its Misha (and PORTAL, again) with an amazing team who backs it up.

 

That they take Mirage with Portal over Core is most likely only because of the sword mobility. Mobility is key for roaming builds in coordinated teams. In particular when running nerfed Portal. Coremes would probably have more impact in fights (and ofc in duels which are not relevant for a raoming build), in terms of dmg, but cannot compete in terms of rotational mobility.

[Odik.4587]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> That they take Mirage with Portal over Core is most likely only because of the sword mobility. Mobility is key for roaming builds in coordinated teams. In particular when running nerfed Portal. Coremes would probably have more impact in fights (and ofc in duels which are not relevant for a raoming build) but cannot compete in terms of rotational mobility.

Idk why you thought, that I need an examplanation why mirage over core mes when I know it... (and core mes wont have more impact in fights, you cannot stick to the target when mirage leap/axe 3/jaunt helps to stay on the target)

Added somethin into post you quoted

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

>But when you look at how barely ppl still understand, then i am obviously still not explaining it easy and detailed enough... i am probably just bad in explaining!

 

Naa, people only understand what they want to understand, no matter how and how many times you explain.

 

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > That they take Mirage with Portal over Core is most likely only because of the sword mobility. Mobility is key for roaming builds in coordinated teams. In particular when running nerfed Portal. Coremes would probably have more impact in fights (and ofc in duels which are not relevant for a raoming build) but cannot compete in terms of rotational mobility.

> Idk why you thought, that I need an examplanation why mirage over core mes when I know it... (and core mes wont have more impact in fights, you cannot stick to the target when mirage leap/axe 3/jaunt helps to stay on the target)

> Added somethin into post you quoted

 

It was not necessarily directed to you, you are not the only one reading the thread and i just have fun in communicating and analyzing. Yes jaunt is part of more mobility aspect i was mentioning (ofc included infight mobility).

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Sznurek.8791" said:

> > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.

> > > > I don't get it.

> > > Dw, thats happens when you, common sense and logic say good bye to each other.

> > > >~~Mesmer~~ Misha is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).

> > > >This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.

> > > >But none of them was better than Misha at mesmer.

> > > >And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that Misha ~~mesmer~~ is too weak and needs buffs?

> > > > Misha ~~Mesmer~~ was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

> > > Now it makes more sense

> >

> > Despite your claims....the amount of mesmers during this last tournament speaks for itself compared to the classes/specs you whine about....double revs, necs, tempest, firebrands, holos and mesmers with some thief....strange..I was expecting rangers with double bird one shotting everything accordingly to your "experiences"

> >

> > Ofc I am not stating that mesmer is OP or in the best spot ever...it's still far from the unplayable level few mesmer fanboys want us to believe

> I also expected unkillable double REAPERS as you whined about before? Where are they?

> Even team USA dumped mirage and Zero played necro, when he is rly rly good mirage... NA was worth watching, EU is not, mirages not found (there was few rangers with double birds (sadly roy didnt caught the game but gimples of it), who would thought it would be birds!?)

> The only reason MIRAGE (not mesmer,obsly) is "viable" because its Misha (and PORTAL, again) with an amazing team who backs it up.

> I'm not really surprised that you dont understand that at all, poor game knowledge and understanding overall, like other ppl who scream "MISHA WON MAT! Its viable!" , @"bravan.3876" analyzed this pretty well for clueless masses, good job tbh.

 

And ty^^

 

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> >But when you look at how barely ppl still understand, then i am obviously still not explaining it easy and detailed enough... i am probably just bad in explaining!

>

> Naa, people only understand what they want to understand, no matter how and how many times you explain.

>

>

 

Or that^^

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"Arheundel.6451" too

> > @"Sznurek.8791" said:

> > > @"Tayga.3192" said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.

> > I don't get it.

> > Mesmer is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).

> > This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.

> > But none of them was better in current meta than mesmer.

> > And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that mesmer is too weak and needs buffs?

> > Mesmer was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

>

> If you don't get it, I can explain to you :

> - About leaderboard : 5v5 is all about rotations and they play one of the best rotationnal comp in this game + they are good players who team play for ages.

> - About 5v5 : portal bring something when you play with player capable to get use of it. (mean just with this they should have win vs the full tank french worms team because of portal high pressure spike on point.).

>

> Now looking at two days ago regular At matchs :

>

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > On a side note, when I look at misha gameplay (current 1st EU, best mesmer in this game), and to give you an idea of how mesmer role evoluate :

> >

> > Look also at the 3 next matchs.

> > What I see is that :

> > - He has regulary the most dead in his team.

> > - He spend most of his time with < 50% hp.

> > - 80% of the time, he is running from point to point dropping portal.

> > - He spam evade to mobility and condiclear, and sustain only with weapon and utility.

> > - He can't 1v1 anything.

> > - He die to random aoe in teamfight.

> > - It should be worst if he didn't get some vigor from teamate.

>

> I will not deny that it's viable but give people time to learn to eat this. There were also plethora of teams who should get a chance of countering it who get ejected from mAt thanks to swiss shadow rules.

>

 

You know, your entire post basically sounds to me like Mesmer is a lot like thief now. Because that entire list describes thief to a T. Hell, Thief even has portal now. Also, dont know if we saw the same games, but its Firebrand that was dead the most. Because he is focused.

[bluri.2653]

Mirage > thief

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Mirage > thief

 

Pfffffffffff...

[Tayga.3192]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Mirage > thief

 

Portal > thief

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > Mirage > thief

>

> Portal > thief

 

More like Portal > Shortbow 5

[KiroIB.4508]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

>

> Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like **IH** and **chronophantasm**...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

 

Mesmer play were always advocate for changing these traits, maybe if u stopped having bias against mesmer and looked at the forum u wouldn't say such a lie

[anjo.6143]

Obviously thief. Cant 1x1 with nobody and cant kill 2x1 in a reasonable time. Thieves can only run around the map hoping for not see anyone or if they see, hope the enemy are with 20% or less HP

[Quadox.7834]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > Mirage > thief

> >

> > Portal > thief

>

> More like Portal > Shortbow 5

 

thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > Mirage > thief

> > >

> > > Portal > thief

> >

> > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

>

> thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

 

Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

[RedAvenged.5217]

I’ll admit Mirage builds actually do really good burst at time and can allow for high lvl play with portal etc but with 1 dodge is pretty ez to counter. I see some going the signet trait which give distortions on signet use but this is so ez to predict and doesn’t seem to get high value against anyone paying attention. Just seems to under perform on average though mirages is workable- especially when they are good, but meta isn’t always what 1/10000 could play

[Quadox.7834]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > >

> > > > Portal > thief

> > >

> > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> >

> > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

>

> Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

 

1 month ago most people would have said mes portal was bad. Thief portal is good, you heard it here first.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

 

dDuff uses it afaik

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > > >

> > > > > Portal > thief

> > > >

> > > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> > >

> > > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

> >

> > Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

>

> 1 month ago most people would have said mes portal was bad. Thief portal is good, you heard it here first.

 

Not really? Noone wouldve said Mesmer Portal is bad, only that Mesmer might not want to use it. Or perhaps that its not good outside of coordinated play (that much is true). But bad? Hardly. Anyway, its so limited in PvP that its really no good. I get why they limited it, but it kinda makes the skill pointless. But then again, its quite nice in WvW, sooo. But yeah, in PvP it doesnt really do enough, shuffling over one person once, with no chance of return, is just too narrow of a proposition, and usually the thief will use it themselves, and given how fast thief moves accross the map? Rather pointless.

[RedAvenged.5217]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > >

> > > > Portal > thief

> > >

> > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> >

> > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

>

> Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

 

Shadow portal rework allowed multiple ppl to use it, but it struggled for viability at first because it’s just not the most consistent thing in the world to have allies use a 1 way portal. Rn it’s pretty meh, I’d say it’s the best option iff your Da dp DrD which still is less consistent than Sa dp DrD because your game play is kind of one sided, where you just portal to decap and rotate back to team fights. Where as Sa dp has all the benefits and isn’t forced to 1 sided game play ie. Sa dp is just more consistent and doesn’t need portal whereas Da dp would and be less consistent

[Revolution.5409]

Birds > Mesmer.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"RedAvenged.5217" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > > >

> > > > > Portal > thief

> > > >

> > > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> > >

> > > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

> >

> > Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

>

> Shadow portal rework allowed multiple ppl to use it, but it struggled for viability at first because it’s just not the most consistent thing in the world to have allies use a 1 way portal. Rn it’s pretty meh, I’d say it’s the best option iff your Da dp DrD which still is less consistent than Sa dp DrD because your game play is kind of one sided, where you just portal to decap and rotate back to team fights. Where as Sa dp has all the benefits and isn’t forced to 1 sided game play ie. Sa dp is just more consistent and doesn’t need portal whereas Da dp would and be less consistent

 

Only in WvW. In sPvP only one person can use it. If it let 5 people use it, different story.

[RedAvenged.5217]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"RedAvenged.5217" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Portal > thief

> > > > >

> > > > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> > > >

> > > > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

> > >

> > > Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

> >

> > Shadow portal rework allowed multiple ppl to use it, but it struggled for viability at first because it’s just not the most consistent thing in the world to have allies use a 1 way portal. Rn it’s pretty meh, I’d say it’s the best option iff your Da dp DrD which still is less consistent than Sa dp DrD because your game play is kind of one sided, where you just portal to decap and rotate back to team fights. Where as Sa dp has all the benefits and isn’t forced to 1 sided game play ie. Sa dp is just more consistent and doesn’t need portal whereas Da dp would and be less consistent

>

> Only in WvW. In sPvP only one person can use it. If it let 5 people use it, different story.

 

Correction in wvw it allows 5 allied targets where as pvp it allows 1 meaning either you and 1 ally can use it or just 1 ally, I’m not 100% on which but I’m pretty sure it’s you and 1 ally can use it. But again not very consistent great for a single play rotation but the primary value has been in most cases decaps not team play

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"RedAvenged.5217" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"RedAvenged.5217" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > > > > Mirage > thief

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Portal > thief

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More like Portal > Shortbow 5

> > > > >

> > > > > thief has portal but sind doesn't want to use it

> > > >

> > > > Because its only one-way, and only one person can use it. Even with the longer duration, its *so much worse* than the Mesmer portal, it aint even funny.

> > >

> > > Shadow portal rework allowed multiple ppl to use it, but it struggled for viability at first because it’s just not the most consistent thing in the world to have allies use a 1 way portal. Rn it’s pretty meh, I’d say it’s the best option iff your Da dp DrD which still is less consistent than Sa dp DrD because your game play is kind of one sided, where you just portal to decap and rotate back to team fights. Where as Sa dp has all the benefits and isn’t forced to 1 sided game play ie. Sa dp is just more consistent and doesn’t need portal whereas Da dp would and be less consistent

> >

> > Only in WvW. In sPvP only one person can use it. If it let 5 people use it, different story.

>

> Correction in wvw it allows 5 allied targets where as pvp it allows 1 meaning either you and 1 ally can use it or just 1 ally, I’m not 100% on which but I’m pretty sure it’s you and 1 ally can use it. But again not very consistent great for a single play rotation but the primary value has been in most cases decaps not team play

 

Nope. Its just 1 person. If you take it, everyone else is locked out. If they take it, youre locked out. If it was you and an ally, maybe itd be alright.