What's the drawback to running thief in your comp?

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> The best dodge traits and the least passive (higherst skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos. That is atm only given for powr ambushes. Simple fact.

That is only given with sword ambush that you can use to gab closer, run away, rupt or/and proc traits and who is currently used in the condi build. Simple fact.

So saying there is a hudge gameplay gap and skill difference between condi or power mirage because of GS ambush play is just false, considering the burst are likely the same (cf detailled burst in above post) and they are 2 burst/lock spec based.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > The best dodge traits and the least passive (higherst skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos. That is atm only given for powr ambushes. Simple fact.

> That is only given with sword ambush that you can use to gab closer, run away, rupt or/and proc traits who is currently used in the condi build. Simple fact.

> So saying there is a hudge gameplay gap and skill difference between condi or power mirage because of GS ambush play is just false, considering the burst are likely the same (cf detailled burst in above post) and they are 2 burst/lock spec based.

>

 

Triple facepalm, seriously, that must hurt yourself, can't you feel it? As said i am out, i can't deal with your narrowness and stubbornness without getting banned anymore. Have a nice day!

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > The best dodge traits and the least passive (higherst skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos. That is atm only given for powr ambushes. Simple fact.

> > That is only given with sword ambush that you can use to gab closer, run away, rupt or/and proc traits who is currently used in the condi build. Simple fact.

> > So saying there is a hudge gameplay gap and skill difference between condi or power mirage because of GS ambush play is just false, considering the burst are likely the same (cf detailled burst in above post) and they are 2 burst/lock spec based.

> >

>

> Triple facepalm, seriously, that must hurt yourself, can't you feel it? As said i am out, i can't deal with your narrowness and stubbornness without getting banned anymore. Have a nice day!

 

I didn't want to give all the details already given but continue playing your skilled GS ambush and stop saying it's top skill versus staff ambush please.

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > The best dodge traits and the least passive (higherst skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos. That is atm only given for powr ambushes. Simple fact.

> > > That is only given with sword ambush that you can use to gab closer, run away, rupt or/and proc traits who is currently used in the condi build. Simple fact.

> > > So saying there is a hudge gameplay gap and skill difference between condi or power mirage because of GS ambush play is just false, considering the burst are likely the same (cf detailled burst in above post) and they are 2 burst/lock spec based.

> > >

> >

> > Triple facepalm, seriously, that must hurt yourself, can't you feel it? As said i am out, i can't deal with your narrowness and stubbornness without getting banned anymore. Have a nice day!

>

> I didn't want to give all the details already given but continue playing your skilled GS ambush and stop saying it's top skill versus staff ambush please.

 

I played IH Condi pre patch more than power because it was way easier and way stronger (in both surviving but also much easier and more passive in its offensive plays) and with that way more chill. Contrary to you i just can accept and know when i am carried by unhealthy, passive low skill ceiling or simply broken mechanics xD I don't need to lie to myself so badly that something is skilled to hide the fact that i need some build carry to be competitive (competitive in GW2 is a lol already, competitive in plat 2 is an even bigger lol). As said i have no incentive to be less carried than everyone else in the braindead metas we always have in casual GW2. But at least i KNOW when i am carried and can accept and admit it.

 

I just explained to you why staff is still more passive then gs but you will not understand. I was talking about IH ambush mechanic on condi vs power and you come up with the new condimeta what doesn't even use IH anymore, means that build is completely irrelevant for the whole discussion but you are too limitied to even get that. The new condi build neither uses IH nor uses any interupt trait. It is a completely different build to a IH power Mirage and for that doesn't even make sense to compare in the first place. The only thing both builds have in common is, that the new Condibuild also use sword, what indeed adds more skill ceiling and less passivity compared to all other condi ambushes to the build. Happy? All other condi ambushes are still more passive and lower skill ceiling than gs and i explained why just in the previous post just as i explained it already 5000 times.

 

Aside form the topic: Btw it is funny that you argue that the new condi burst build is so skillful while you always complained about the mono gamplay from power oneshot builds, while the new condibuild is just as mono the only difference is, that it does it with condi and not power dmg. In the end it is just a hit and kill fast or run build. I love how often you contradict yourself.

But as said that has NOTHING, absolutley NOTHING to do with the topic about condi and power IH Mirage and their passivity lvl and skill ceiling. That you don't even get that and are just so afraid someone could call your new beloved Condibuild less skilled is just tripe facepalm. Showes how narrowed and limited you are in your fear and in your wishes about that all builds are equally skilled just to not feel carried by anything. You are biased as hell based on your lower skill, that is my opinion (and yes that is just an opinion this time. But at least this opinion is based on non biased observations and not narrowed stubbornness).

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > The best dodge traits and the least passive (higherst skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos. That is atm only given for powr ambushes. Simple fact.

> > > > That is only given with sword ambush that you can use to gab closer, run away, rupt or/and proc traits who is currently used in the condi build. Simple fact.

> > > > So saying there is a hudge gameplay gap and skill difference between condi or power mirage because of GS ambush play is just false, considering the burst are likely the same (cf detailled burst in above post) and they are 2 burst/lock spec based.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Triple facepalm, seriously, that must hurt yourself, can't you feel it? As said i am out, i can't deal with your narrowness and stubbornness without getting banned anymore. Have a nice day!

> >

> > I didn't want to give all the details already given but continue playing your skilled GS ambush and stop saying it's top skill versus staff ambush please.

>

> I played IH Condi pre patch more than power because it was way easier and way stronger (in both surviving but also much easier and more passive in its offensive plays) and with that way more chill. Contrary to you i just can accept and know when i am carried by unhealthy, passive low skill ceiling or simply broken mechanics xD I don't need to lie to myself so badly that something is skilled to hide the fact that i need some build carry to be competitive (competitive in GW2 is a lol already, competitive in plat 2 is an even bigger lol). As said i have no incentive to be less carried than everyone else in the braindead metas we always have in casual GW2. But at least i KNOW when i am carried and can accept and admit it.

>

> I just explained to you why staff is still more passive then gs but you will not understand. I was talking about IH ambush mechanic on condi vs power and you come up with the new condimeta what doesn't even use IH anymore, means that build is completely irrelevant for the whole discussion but you are too limitied to even get that. The new condi build neither uses IH nor uses any interupt trait. It is a completely different build to a IH power Mirage and for that doesn't even make sense to compare in the first place. The only thing both builds have in common is, that the new Condibuild also use sword, what indeed adds more skill ceiling and less passivity compared to all other condi ambushes to the build. Happy? All other condi ambushes are still more passive and lower skill ceiling than gs and i explained why just in the previous post just as i explained it already 5000 times.

>

> Aside form the topic: Btw it is funny that you argue that the new condi burst build is so skillful while you always complained about the mono gamplay from power oneshot builds, while the new condibuild is just as mono the only difference is, that it does it with condi and not power dmg. In the end it is just a hit and kill fast or run build. I love how often you contradict yourself.

> But as said that has NOTHING, absolutley NOTHING to do with the topic about condi and power IH Mirage and their passivity lvl and skill ceiling. That you don't even get that and are just so afraid someone could call your new beloved Condibuild less skilled is just tripe facepalm. Showes how narrowed and limited you are in your fear and in your wishes about that all builds are equally skilled just to not feel carried by anything. You are biased as hell based on your lower skill, that is my opinion (and yes that is just an opinion this time. But at least this opinion is based on non biased observations and not narrowed stubbornness).

 

Why you can't get that the passive part of this was the core clone auto condi application ?

What is hard to understand about this ?

 

Don't talk about rank when you aren't even playing there please.

 

If clone were never doing bleed and staff auto condi application what's differentiate staff ambush from GS ambush ? -> Just look at what Leonidrex describe on his comparison.

About clone sword ambush I already state and explained why it's not reliable.

About staff and GS clone ambush the only difference are in Leonidrex post and there isn't one more skilled than another.

 

The new no IH build didn't use unreliable clone rupt with rupt trait -> Does it mean that you haven't to rupt the same opponnents key skills ? -> the answer is no. So it's not a "completly different gameplay". In the two case you will use your own sword ambush to do basically the same things minus the unreliable rupt from clone, in the two case you will rupt key skills and in the two case the burst combo is done with basically the same number of keys near the target.

 

I argue that the new condi burst build is better than a mono gameplay shatter because :

- It don't get countered by random weakness proc

- Like I already said, GS leak a sustain skill (mean a 0.45 sec on 3 for example.) to make it compete with other weapons.

- The mobility mirage give combined with portal allow to better map control than a pure core build.

 

I'm afraid of nothing, particulary I haven't any shame playing all mesmers builds whatever it should be.

it's just that I don't come with my big boots imposing a one way skill play. And it make me hungry when someone try to justify it just because "that"s it" whereas mechanics and number of keys involved are pretty similar.

I'm here to play the game, not to come here saying : look how I'm strong playing something nobody play in competitive because it's unviable, you are all noob buildcarrier, like you do.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

I pop into this thread and I have no idea why mesmers are bickering about Mirage Ambush Attacks when it's supposed to be about thieves.

 

Infinite Horizon was only a problem insomuch as you could dodge while running away and your clones would keep attacking, you don't have to commit to doing the attack yourself. The condition ambushes in themselves were fine. When you factor in the 0.25s start up while your 1 skill flips over into an ambush. Chaos Vortex has a 1s cast time and a projectile. Ether Barrage has a 1.5 second cast time. Again, because you can't cast an ambush for the first 0.25 seconds in mirage cloak you only get and most get 0.5 seconds of covering your attack with evade frames. This meant that both Chaos Vortex and Ether Barrage could not be cast entirely while evading. At the absolute maximum, 0.5 seconds of Chaos Vortex is still vulnerable to attack, and 1 second of Ether Barrage is open to attack for one full second, making them potent but otherwise mostly normal skills, even less protected by evade frames compared to something like Pistol Whip or Flanking Strike on thief.

 

The only condition ambush skill that could be completely covered by evasion frames is Imaginary Axes and on top of being heavily, heavily nerfed long before the megabalance patch, like two years ago now, the actual attack comes out after a significant wind up and delay anyway.

 

The condition ambushes are mostly designed well and fairly, and they were also a bandaid due to most of condition mesmer's weapon kit being the absolute lowest in terms of damage capacity compared to every other class in the game. Seriously, Bravan, after staff ambush was nerfed none of the condition damage weapon kits could complete in a PvP setting in terms of DPS with a Power Mesmer just spamming 1, and that gap has only significantly widened. The main problem isn't even the damage boost from infinite horizon, it's that clone ambushes are automatic when they should be tied to the mesmer actively ambushing as well. I also wouldn't describe Power Mesmer using it's ability to cast and overlap multiple instant cast skill at once to effectively one shot opponents in a fraction of a second this beacon of healthy, ideal, fair, class design either.

 

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I pop into this thread and I have no idea why mesmers are bickering about Mirage Ambush Attacks when it's supposed to be about thieves.

Because there isn't Gowdin point in gw2 -> there is Mesmer point :

The more a discussion grow, the higher the probability to derivate to mesmers things.

===> []

 

[Gryxis.6950]

This is a discussion about thieves right ?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lmao I called it in a previous post in this thread iirc. This is a duplicate thread of one of same context made by a mesmer main to mock sind and his opinion on thief's current state and as usual was a back and forth between thief mains and mesmers and what's really funny is I told one of the thieves to stop feeding their troll and they'll eventually start arguing amongst themselves and it actually happened lmao priceless.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I pop into this thread and I have no idea why mesmers are bickering about Mirage Ambush Attacks when it's supposed to be about thieves.

>

> Infinite Horizon was only a problem insomuch as you could dodge while running away and your clones would keep attacking. The condition ambushes in themselves were fine. When you factor in the 0.25s start up while your 1 skill flips over into an ambush. Chaos Vortex has a 1s cast time and a projectile. Ether Barrage has a 1.5 second cast time. Again, because you can't cast an ambush for the first 0.25 seconds in mirage cloak you only get and most get 0.5 seconds of covering your attack with evade frames. This meant that both Chaos Vortex and Ether Barrage could not be cast entirely while evading. At the absolute maximum, 0.5 seconds of Chaos Vortex is still vulnerable to attack, and 1 second of Ether Barrage is open to attack for one full second, making them potent but otherwise mostly normal skills, even less protected by evade frames compared to something like Pistol Whip or Flanking Strike on thief.

>

> The only condition ambush skill that could be completely covered by evasion frames is Imaginary Axes and on top of being heavily, heavily nerfed long before the megabalance patch, like two years ago now, the actual attack comes out after a significant wind up and delay anyway.

>

> The condition ambushes are mostly designed well and fairly, and they were also a bandaid due to most of condition mesmer's weapon kit being the absolute lowest in terms of damage capacity compared to every other class in the game. The main problem isn't even the damage boost from infinite horizon, it's that clone ambushes are automatic when they should be tied to the mesmer actively ambushing as well. I also wouldn't describe Power Mesmer using it's ability to cast and overlap multiple instant cast skill at once to effectively one shot opponents in a fraction of a second this beacon of healthy, ideal, fair, class design either.

>

>

 

Just that the whole discussion is not about how much window for interrupts you have from a shorter evade duration compared to the ambush cast time. Most ambush skills can't be covered completely by MC. Even sword leap with it 3/4s cast time mostly can't because there is a little delay between the instant dodge start and the leap start, even when you spam 1111 right after the dodge and when the Mesmer or the clones are not in complete melee range you can cover even less from the leap duration. And that is good, ambushes need to have at least a little window of counterplay by not being covered from a dodge 100%. There is no problem in that but that also was not the topic at all.

 

No, the condi ambushes are not fine, they are subpar designed but it would be easy to change their mechanic or at least tweak their numbers to hit the equilibrium margin in terms of amount of dmg and effect duration (second only on staff because axe and scepter are only about pure dmg anyway) to make them less passive and more skilled. Better would be a mechanic change to add some utility condies and remove condi dmg from clones remarkable (clone ambsuhes but also normal autoattacks ofc) and for that give Mirages 2 dodges back so that a Mirage is even able to do offensive dodging for active and tactical outplays differently timed from pure defensive dodges. With the one dodge change it doesn't even matter that much anymore how ambushes are designed, because a Mirage doesn't have the ressources for offensives dodges anymore most of the time in the first place, what contradicts the whole ambush/ IH mechanic (aside from running contrary to the gamewide dodge mechanic based on at least 2 dodges for not spammy on cd dodge management, with one dodge Mirages are even more pressured into dodging on cd to prevent endurance reggen waste).

 

Oneshotting is not a Mirage mechanic, it is just something a Mirage can do too because the ability to oneshot lies in core mechanics not in the Mirage mechanic, so that is neither relevant for the topic. Not to mention that a DE/IH/PB Mirage (with and without MoP) cannot oneshot at all with the standard gs 2 burst combo like a core power shatter can/ was able to.

 

And even though the new Condimeta build is also not relevant for the topic at all (what Viquing can't get in his head it seems, and i just ignore him form now on to not get banned for talking honest to him) i just want to mention that the new condi build (what wasn't the topic at all, to make that clear once again!!!) is more near to a full glass (means no inspi, no chaos) core oneshot powershatter Mes (just with condi instead power dmg) or the old oneshot Mirage (what was played with old EM stunbreak on dodge and Superiority Complex trait pre EM nerf) in its playstyle and less near to a IH interrupt power Mirage with IH/DE/PB played. Without judging what needs more skill here. Just a simple comparision of mechanics and how they change the playstyle. But this difference you ofc also only will understand when getting the basics of the IH/Ambush mechanic and when you admit, that a Powermirage with DE/IH/PB played has remarkable more different playstyle to a core shatter than a Mirage played without IH/DE(/PB). Simply because of the need to utilize ambushes for different combos to higher dmg and to make defensive plays just as for active tactical outplays aside from pure defensive dodging. And for being way more around interupting than burst dmg. The interrupt Mirage clearly trades burst dmg for utility and is for that a completely different build. The new condi burst oneshot build is a mainly a burst build with some more debuff ability on cc from the new GM trait. Both builds are roaming +1 builds and both use sword but there the resemblance betwen those 2 builds ends. The interrupt power Mirage build has a bit more value in teamfights aside from thr raoming +1 ability, because it can switch to range pressure to stand out of aoe and because of the support utility from PB it provides in teamfights. The new condibuild is more about +1ing and killing fast or fail and run or die. It doesn't use IH and it doesn't use any interrupt trait, it is a completely different build in what it is supposed to do and what it needs to do to do his job well, just by how it is traited and aside from being condi vs power burst ofc.

[viquing.8254]

It's crazy how you continue on your way :

 

Hopefully two differents builds has differents output.

 

The discussion was about :

> IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed.

from page 4.

Wich isn't true as explained in the discussion. Only sword is really a mind ambush.

 

But continue your crusade about skill ceiling and passiveness so we can all enjoy new "high ceiling things" like new CI and new LT. (No need to thanks me, it's free because you a right in one thing, it's really hard to stay calm to not get banned.). A last I agree that it will be better with 2 dodges and other ambush than currently were it's just spammed/ignored whatever mirage build you play.

Can't wait your new argumentation about chaos and inspiration who aren't used now.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

They could implant a new mechanic to help the dps of thieves , avoiding in the same time Veni, vidi, burst , with a Revenge mechanic .

When an enemy player/Warrior is hitting your teammate/Mesmer (because the thief is retreating to stealth or evade tactics , or he is on the other side of the map) , the Warrior gains on his head the exact same mechanic as Malice but is renamed Revenge and builds upon , him hitting your Mesmer teammate . Last for 30 sec , and the debuff builds regardless is the Thieve is nearby or not

 

If the Warrior has Revenge stacks and you push your Steal or Deadeye's Mark , you do tremendous amount of damage/

or steal boons with each hit and give it to allies /

or a portion of the enemy target heal >aoe heal/

or increase the damage of his allies next attack , but you get self damaged (10% of your hp) each time you use a defensive non-mobility skill , such as evade or stealth

 

Otherwise if he enemy don't have Revenge stacks , because he hasn't attacked your teammate or he just spawned , try to do the normal rotation as you would (without the 10% hp backfired) .

You should not use Steal/Deadeye's Mark , leading you to do less damage if you believe you are not safe and play it a more agile rotation instead .

[bravan.3876]

Btw buff Thief!