Quadox.7834 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > It survives well therefore it has survivability, I am not talking about sustain. Anyway, don't reply to this bcs linguistic debates are boring. Yes, I don't know personally how to make thief fill a diff role (and it is not my job to come up with) or even if it would be desirable but if there is a will there's a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). > > > > > > > 2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. > > > > > > > 3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. > > > > > > > 4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style. > > > > > > > 5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again. > > > > > > > 6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here). > > > > > > > 7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ? > > > > > > You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.). > > > > > > Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons. > > > > > > If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses. > > > > > > It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things. > > > > > > It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current condi burst combo is : > > > > > > Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.). > > > > > > The historic power burst combo is : > > > > > > Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.). > > > > > > > > > > > > With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed : > > > > > > - It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before. > > > > > > - it's unefficient versus good players. > > > > > > - it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general. > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving... > > > > > > > > > > > > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits. > > > > > > Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season. > > > > > > Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why mirage is played is : > > > > > > - Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed. > > > > > > - Condi clear : EM, jaunt. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal. > > > > > > Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get. > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > **If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play**. > > > That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay. > > > Thats a facepalm tbh > > > > When you get random interupted on heal from a Mirage that is dodging defensive or for leaping away while you know and can even see the slow and well animated clone leap than it is your missplay. You literally even can just out move that leap if you need to use your heal so badly in exactly that moment. As said ofc every dodge trait has an passive aspect of activating also when the player is just dodging to avoid an attack and doesn't think about an well timed and tactical outplay move during that. But the difference between power and condi is, that you at least CAN use that mechanic active while condi ambushes don't give the possibility nor the incentive to use that active. Powermirage even is in NEED to combo with ambushes from sword and gs (not only for interrupt purposes, it is needed for the whole dmg application, Powermriage needs to combo with ambushes, just as it should be, while Condimirage can just dodge pure defensive and hope for some passive dmg application from clones during that). If you as Mesmer mains cannot see such simple logical and obvious stuff than it is rly not my problem. But i am not surpised why most ppl suck on Powermirage anymore. > > so what would you change condi ambushes to? As said they should be less about dmg more about effects/ utility giving incentive and the need to time them different from pure defensive dodges to make tactical active on purpose outplays possible and needed to play it at maximum potential. Sword and GS are good examples for that (with gs needing a little nerf to the Mesmers own gs ambush dmg). There are different possibilities. - Scepter should be changed in general to have only one hit, not mulitple projectiles. Instead dmg it could provide a 1/2 sec immob on an well animated projectile with balanced travel speed and cast time (comparable to Engi rifle immob skill), while clones get a weaker version of 1/4 or 1/8 immob on hit. That can be comboed before going for a scepter 3 cast to secure it will hit a good part of the cast before the target can dodge without using a condi remove. It would fit to the weaponstyle and give incentives to combo with other weapon- and shatter skills. Another possibility would be chill or cripple (here maybe with a bit of condi dmg on the Mesmers own ambush in addition because those 2 utlitiy condis are weaker than immob). - Axe could get a boni to condition dmg stat for x seconds (not too long, comparable to the might/ vulnstack duration on gs, means short only to prepare a burst not to make a perma debuff that would be passive again), aside from a low dmg application on the Mesmers own ambush, while clones get the weaker version of only stacking condi dmg stat boni (no condi application by themself) for a short duration. That would give the incentive and need to combo ambushes to prepare an axe 3 shatter burst. Other posibility would be to add a more utilitiy based non dmg condi just like i descibed for scepter before. - Staff ambush could get a boni in terms of condition duration for x seconds (weaker version on clones, no dmg on clones) on the ambush aside from a low dmg application only on the Mesmers ambush. Alternative adding a non dmg utility condition that fits the staff playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). > > > > > > > > 2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. > > > > > > > > 3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. > > > > > > > > 4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style. > > > > > > > > 5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again. > > > > > > > > 6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here). > > > > > > > > 7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ? > > > > > > > You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.). > > > > > > > Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons. > > > > > > > If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses. > > > > > > > It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things. > > > > > > > It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current condi burst combo is : > > > > > > > Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.). > > > > > > > The historic power burst combo is : > > > > > > > Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed : > > > > > > > - It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before. > > > > > > > - it's unefficient versus good players. > > > > > > > - it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits. > > > > > > > Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season. > > > > > > > Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why mirage is played is : > > > > > > > - Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed. > > > > > > > - Condi clear : EM, jaunt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal. > > > > > > > Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get. > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > **If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play**. > > > > That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay. > > > > Thats a facepalm tbh > > > > > > When you get random interupted on heal from a Mirage that is dodging defensive or for leaping away while you know and can even see the slow and well animated clone leap than it is your missplay. You literally even can just out move that leap if you need to use your heal so badly in exactly that moment. As said ofc every dodge trait has an passive aspect of activating also when the player is just dodging to avoid an attack and doesn't think about an well timed and tactical outplay move during that. But the difference between power and condi is, that you at least CAN use that mechanic active while condi ambushes don't give the possibility nor the incentive to use that active. Powermirage even is in NEED to combo with ambushes from sword and gs (not only for interrupt purposes, it is needed for the whole dmg application, Powermriage needs to combo with ambushes, just as it should be, while Condimirage can just dodge pure defensive and hope for some passive dmg application from clones during that). If you as Mesmer mains cannot see such simple logical and obvious stuff than it is rly not my problem. But i am not surpised why most ppl suck on Powermirage anymore. > > > > so what would you change condi ambushes to? > > As said they should be less about dmg more about effects/ utility giving incentive and the need to time them different from pure defensive dodges to make tactical active on purpose outplays possible and needed to play it at maximum potential. Sword and GS are good examples for that (with gs needing a little nerf to the Mesmers own gs ambush dmg). There are different possibilities. > - Scepter should be changed in general to have only one hit, not mulitple projectiles. Instead dmg it could provide a 1/2 sec immob on an well animated projectile with balanced travel speed and cast time (comparable to Engi rifle immob skill), while clones get a weaker version of 1/4 or 1/8 immob on hit. That can be comboed before going for a scepter 3 cast to secure it will hit a good part of the cast before the target can dodge without using a condi remove. It would fit to the weaponstyle and give incentives to combo with other weapon- and shatter skills. Another possibility would be chill or cripple (here maybe with a bit of condi dmg on the Mesmers own ambush in addition because those 2 utlitiy condis are weaker than immob). > - Axe could get a boni to condition dmg stat for x seconds (not too long, comparable to the might/ vulnstack duration on gs, means short only to prepare a burst not to make a perma debuff that would be passive again), aside from a low dmg application on the Mesmers own ambush, while clones get the weaker version of only stacking condi dmg stat boni (no condi application by themself) for a short duration. That would give the incentive and need to combo ambushes to prepare an axe 3 shatter burst. Other posibility would be to add a more utilitiy based non dmg condi just like i descibed for scepter before. > - Staff ambush could get a boni in terms of condition duration for x seconds (weaker version on clones, no dmg on clones) on the ambush aside from a low dmg application only on the Mesmers ambush. Alternative adding a non dmg utility condition that fits the staff playstyle. > > good suggestions, i would have utility/defense on staff like a reflect or smthng. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). > > > > > > > > > 2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. > > > > > > > > > 3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. > > > > > > > > > 4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style. > > > > > > > > > 5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again. > > > > > > > > > 6. IH should be considered to be baseline, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here). > > > > > > > > > 7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since game pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I said that axe ambush is a thing ? > > > > > > > > You say that power ambush are more skilled than the condi versions. I just write to you that it's not the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GS is a weapon who come with no sustain skills in it. When you look at meta weapon, most of them has a last 1 skill to sustain or they give sustain by class mechanics (nec.). Even longbow ranger have stealth. This alone explain why power mesmer is so hard to make it work because you are facing class who has at least weapons with 1 tempo skill on each weapon swap. Skill has nothing to do there it's pure viability. Just compare it to other class similar weapons used in meta, you should see that they all give not only damage or they give sustain by class mechanics (the evade on war GS explain at 50% why it's a meta weapon for ages, the other 50% is the mobility.). > > > > > > > > Added to that, dev has to balanced mesmers taking into account that they can have 2 weapon set with evade frame on it, so they can't balance a spec who can sustain well with GS by not making an op survival if mesmer take other weapons. > > > > > > > > If tomorrow they put a 0.45 sec block on mind stab for example like whirlwind attack but being static during the evade, you should see more GS uses. > > > > > > > > It's mirage independant yes but it explain imo much things. > > > > > > > > It's not a disagree discussion, you assert false things. I don't react every posts you defends your "skills" visions but here it's just no true, even taking apart the subjective part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current condi burst combo is : > > > > > > > > Torch 4 -> blink/jaunt-> sword3 (-> sword ambush) -> torch 5 + F2. Then you can follow with axe swap -> 5 pistol -> 2 axes -> 3 axes (with a f3 rupt during the cycle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal/clear.). > > > > > > > > The historic power burst combo is : > > > > > > > > Torch -> 2GS -> blink/jaunt -> F3 -> F1. Then you can follow with sword swap -> 3 sword -> 2 sword -> sword autos (with sword ambush during the ccle to rupt/prevent opponent to heal.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With of course rotations adapted to opponents/situation. So no the power version is clearly not skilled++ compared to the condi version on top of that you can pressure from range during no burst phases which is not possible with a full melee condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed about detargeting mechanics that should be removed : > > > > > > > > - It's confusing to new players and make they hate illusions more than before. > > > > > > > > - it's unefficient versus good players. > > > > > > > > - it's unusefull versus aoe spam in general. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3 they could start to make it reliable because it's countered by just moving... Imagine a gard's leap of faith failed because the opponent is moving... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy. It should also give the +50% hp on illusions back if we want to make chrono viable or give a similar trait in chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not condi ambush but clone auto shouldn't output any condi to be on par with direct damage. They should do this in 2015 instead of removing clones on death traits. > > > > > > > > Last condi mirage meta build before the last rework was about letting clone autoing, not even ambush. IH wasn't used to ambush but to save clones from AOE last season. > > > > > > > > Condi ambush should do condi damage the same power ambush should do power damage, particulary considering the obvious animation on thoses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why mirage is played is : > > > > > > > > - Mobility : sword ambush, jaunt. Renforced by the 50% nerf on core manipulation superspeed. > > > > > > > > - Condi clear : EM, jaunt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the mesmer spec who give the most mobility & survavibility which is what is needed as long as mesmer role is map control around portal. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile an equivalent core spec would drop damage and mobility if taking inspiration thanks to inspiration condi clear counterpart = if you condi clear with shatter, you can't burst. Or drop condiclear and mobility if taking chaos or duelling. (Which is also why I disagree about you opinion on inspiration and chaos being more carry line than mirage.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Condimirage build has a similar base combo than a core shatter played without gs true (except of the axe it is more a core build anyway, Mirage mostly only adds some passive sustain and more mobility but nothing that would turn it into a Mirage specific playstyle) it is totally different to a Powermirage played on max potential using the IH/ambush mechanic active to combo as it should be. My balance suggestion would give Condimirage a more interesting, more skilled, more active way of playing, in particular skilled Mesmer player should be happy about to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > > **If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play**. > > > > > That bold parts, I told him that alrdy before. Power mirage spammnig ambush is no different and by far equally braindead/unskilled as condi mirage, especially these random clones on sword randomly proc'ing power block, as you noticed, thats random interrupt on clones, MIRAGE THRURST has trouble hitting its target most of times even, add to this latency and you cant even use it right away but after a short delay. > > > > > Thats a facepalm tbh > > > > > > > > When you get random interupted on heal from a Mirage that is dodging defensive or for leaping away while you know and can even see the slow and well animated clone leap than it is your missplay. You literally even can just out move that leap if you need to use your heal so badly in exactly that moment. As said ofc every dodge trait has an passive aspect of activating also when the player is just dodging to avoid an attack and doesn't think about an well timed and tactical outplay move during that. But the difference between power and condi is, that you at least CAN use that mechanic active while condi ambushes don't give the possibility nor the incentive to use that active. Powermirage even is in NEED to combo with ambushes from sword and gs (not only for interrupt purposes, it is needed for the whole dmg application, Powermriage needs to combo with ambushes, just as it should be, while Condimirage can just dodge pure defensive and hope for some passive dmg application from clones during that). If you as Mesmer mains cannot see such simple logical and obvious stuff than it is rly not my problem. But i am not surpised why most ppl suck on Powermirage anymore. > > > > > > so what would you change condi ambushes to? > > > > As said they should be less about dmg more about effects/ utility giving incentive and the need to time them different from pure defensive dodges to make tactical active on purpose outplays possible and needed to play it at maximum potential. Sword and GS are good examples for that (with gs needing a little nerf to the Mesmers own gs ambush dmg). There are different possibilities. > > - Scepter should be changed in general to have only one hit, not mulitple projectiles. Instead dmg it could provide a 1/2 sec immob on an well animated projectile with balanced travel speed and cast time (comparable to Engi rifle immob skill), while clones get a weaker version of 1/4 or 1/8 immob on hit. That can be comboed before going for a scepter 3 cast to secure it will hit a good part of the cast before the target can dodge without using a condi remove. It would fit to the weaponstyle and give incentives to combo with other weapon- and shatter skills. Another possibility would be chill or cripple (here maybe with a bit of condi dmg on the Mesmers own ambush in addition because those 2 utlitiy condis are weaker than immob). > > - Axe could get a boni to condition dmg stat for x seconds (not too long, comparable to the might/ vulnstack duration on gs, means short only to prepare a burst not to make a perma debuff that would be passive again), aside from a low dmg application on the Mesmers own ambush, while clones get the weaker version of only stacking condi dmg stat boni (no condi application by themself) for a short duration. That would give the incentive and need to combo ambushes to prepare an axe 3 shatter burst. Other posibility would be to add a more utilitiy based non dmg condi just like i descibed for scepter before. > > - Staff ambush could get a boni in terms of condition duration for x seconds (weaker version on clones, no dmg on clones) on the ambush aside from a low dmg application only on the Mesmers ambush. Alternative adding a non dmg utility condition that fits the staff playstyle. > > > > > > good suggestions, i would have utility/defense on staff like a reflect or smthng. Yes good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > Yes because the majority of the population wants more damage on the Backstab and they enjoy the mobility of the class , then Stealth (universaly on all classes) should get a mobility debuff or break on damage/dots . That way the theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage + buff his auto attacks to crit for 1200/1200/2400 again + keeping the mobility fo the shortbow And leave the stealth on Mesmer unchanged , because it has high cd (prestige 30 sec - Decoy 40 sec) And Enginner stealth get a nerf too , with the rest of the classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It survives well therefore it has survivability, I am not talking about sustain. Anyway, don't reply to this bcs linguistic debates are boring. > By that logic people who afk in base have maximum survivability. After all, they will *always* survive. Makes the term rather meaningless though, wouldnt you agree? > Yes, I don't know personally how to make thief fill a diff role (and it is not my job to come up with) or even if it would be desirable but if there is a will there's a way. Making thief fill a different role is easy enough. To do it while preserving their current role as an option is not. There are solutions, but theyre all anything but elegant, and often cause other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > Just commenting on IA thing. IA even currently is trash, CD too high and random teleport, most of the times to traps, aoe and whatnot. > > > > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > Buff thief! > > > > > > > > Nerf mesmer! > > > Shhhh, dont let him know how stupid his suggestion is. > > I even valued the fact that the randomness is also bad for the Mesmer itself but it is even more bad for the opponent. All in all it is a skill should just not exist in its current state. And since a rework of the whole retargeting mechanic is unlikely a 50s cd is still justified because of the big value it still has despite the randomness (what is bad and good for the Mesmer at same time, good for the Mesmer because it take away any mind game and coutnerplay option form the opponent, what is just unhealthy as mechanic, is that rly so hard to understand?) > > While I agree that the skill shouldn't exist I believe so because of the randomness. > And I disagree, the randomness is worse for mesmer because of the previous reasons you'll end up, more than half the times, in the worst spot possible. > > > As for mirage advance is trash, not only due to range but also because the cast time doesnt allow any combo. Its like the shadowstep re.ta. rd cousin. Yes that why i said rework it into something more naer to Thief's Shadowstep but delete the retargeting from it. That would not be a bad change for the Mesmer while also making the skill less toxic and annoying for the opponent. Sometimes win win situations are possible^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes because the majority of the population wants more damage on the Backstab and they enjoy the mobility of the class , then Stealth (universaly on all classes) should get a mobility debuff or break on damage/dots . That way the theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage + buff his auto attacks to crit for 1200/1200/2400 again + keeping the mobility fo the shortbow Not really? The majority doesnt have much love for backstab one way or the other. Its just the best option currently. Anyway, no Ive already explained why making stealth break on DoT or damage is *the* worst design you could possibly come up with. Like, nothing is as bad as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It survives well therefore it has survivability, I am not talking about sustain. Anyway, don't reply to this bcs linguistic debates are boring. > > > > By that logic people who afk in base have maximum survivability. After all, they will *always* survive. Makes the term rather meaningless though, wouldnt you agree? Didn't I just tell you that linguistics is boring? > > > Yes, I don't know personally how to make thief fill a diff role (and it is not my job to come up with) or even if it would be desirable but if there is a will there's a way. > > Making thief fill a different role is easy enough. To do it while preserving their current role as an option is not. There are solutions, but theyre all anything but elegant, and often cause other problems. It is for Anet to solve if they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage Doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes because the majority of the population wants more damage on the Backstab and they enjoy the mobility of the class , then Stealth (universaly on all classes) should get a mobility debuff or break on damage/dots . That way the theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage + buff his auto attacks to crit for 1200/1200/2400 again + keeping the mobility fo the shortbow > > Not really? The majority doesnt have much love for backstab one way or the other. Its just the best option currently. Anyway, no Ive already explained why making stealth break on DoT or damage is *the* worst design you could possibly come up with. Like, nothing is as bad as that. The majority , wants more damage . They want their mobility too . You said that we redisn thief to a dueler , and whats the better option to do that ? We increase the Backstab = restore auto attacks ... and if the target survives/has Tougness gear , he must not let the Thief to restealth and getting Backstab again , using dots on him . You can use off pistol Daze to stop any major enemy spells , thus help you stay on battle/survive more or use any variation of the Daredevil spell that replace dodge with a long distance dodge to avoid crusial close aoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 What's the drawback to running thief in your comp? Keeps stealing muh RAM!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > Am I misreading (lazy atm) or do you really think mirage thrust can't be used to purposefully interrupt things e.g. healing skills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes because the majority of the population wants more damage on the Backstab and they enjoy the mobility of the class , then Stealth (universaly on all classes) should get a mobility debuff or break on damage/dots . That way the theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage + buff his auto attacks to crit for 1200/1200/2400 again + keeping the mobility fo the shortbow > > > > Not really? The majority doesnt have much love for backstab one way or the other. Its just the best option currently. Anyway, no Ive already explained why making stealth break on DoT or damage is *the* worst design you could possibly come up with. Like, nothing is as bad as that. > > The majority , wants more damage . > They want their mobility too . > You said that we redisn thief to a dueler , and whats the better option to do that ? > We increase the Backstab = restore auto attacks ... and if the target survives/has Tougness gear , he must not let the Thief to restealth and getting Backstab again , using dots on him . You can use off pistol Daze to stop any major enemy spells , thus help you stay on battle/survive more or use any variation of the Daredevil spell that replace dodge with a long distance dodge to avoid crusial close aoes More damage =/= more damage on backstab. Sides, those that also want mobility as well as damage are just wishfully thinking. Uh, literally *anything* other than what you suggested? I mean frankly no stealth-focused build is going to be a good duelist. The right way is to up thieves survivability and damage in-combat. Mostly stuff like Shadowshot, autoattacks, maybe Larcenating Strike. Or to make stealth in-combat actually usable, and allow thieves to use it to quickly reposition for hard to predict strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > Am I misreading (lazy atm) or do you really think mirage thrust can't be used to purposefully interrupt things e.g. healing skills? Obviously most can't. I am not surprised the usual average oneshot hero pleb can't play Powermirage that well but that some of the currently above average Powermesmer player can't even understand and utilize the mechanic active either is shocking for me. I at least get the theory also when i suck in playing it well. But hell yes, finally a top lvl Mesmer can take my place and explain to your fellow Powermesmer companions how to play this spec on max potential. There is a reason you are one of the very few Mesmers i would put on top lvl and on gs power even far above of Misha or any ex esl Mesmer mechanically. Maybe they listen to you more than to a Multiclass pleb like me they are too afraid i call for overnerfs to their beloved main. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > Am I misreading (lazy atm) or do you really think mirage thrust can't be used to purposefully interrupt things e.g. healing skills? Depends on skill. Most healing skills you can't unless you're doing it pre-emptively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. What bother me is the misinformation you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > Am I misreading (lazy atm) or do you really think mirage thrust can't be used to purposefully interrupt things e.g. healing skills? Apart necro going out of shroud that you can anticipate, list me what healing skills you rupt with mirage thrusts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? > > It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. > What bother me is the misinformation you do. > As said it is not my problem when you will or can't understand the Mirage spec. Stay on subpar gameplay lvl then. Lucky for you there will always be a build can compensate lack of skill and understanding. I am out here for now. Talk to the 2-3 top lvl Powermirages this game only has for reasons, that helped me too. Maybe you believe them more than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > > > At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? > > > > It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. > > What bother me is the misinformation you do. > > > > As said it is not my problem when you will or can't understand the Mirage spec. Stay on subpar gameplay lvl then. Lucky for you there will always be a build can compensate lack of skill and understanding. I am out here for now. Surely someone playing mesmer since game launch, mirage since PoF, who regulary look at top players streams and analyse his game to improve his play is on a subpar gameplay lvl, have no clue about mesmer and only get plat 2 thanks to build carry every seasons. Whereas someone playing multiclass doing only paper therorycrafting, has the best view on the class, the absolute truth about skill and understanding. I'm sorry for you but as hurtful as it can be, you haven't this game universal understanding and what look beautiful on paper can't be a reality everytime. Moreover your definitions on relative things aren't universal too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > > > > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > > > > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > > > > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > > > > > At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? > > > > > > It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. > > > What bother me is the misinformation you do. > > > > > > > As said it is not my problem when you will or can't understand the Mirage spec. Stay on subpar gameplay lvl then. Lucky for you there will always be a build can compensate lack of skill and understanding. I am out here for now. > > Surely someone playing mesmer since game launch, mirage since PoF, who regulary look at top players streams and analyse his game to improve his play is on a subpar gameplay lvl, have no clue about mesmer and only get plat 2 thanks to game carry every seasons. > Whereas someone playing multiclass doing only paper therorycrafting, has the best view on the class, the absolute truth about skill and understanding. > I'm sorry for you but as hurtful as it can be, you haven't this game universal understanding and what look beautiful on paper can't be a reality everytime. Moreover your definitions on relative things aren't universal too. As said: Talk to the 2-3 top lvl Powermirages this game only has for reasons, that helped me too. Maybe you believe them more than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > > > > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > > > > > > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > > > > > > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > > > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > > > > > > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > > > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > > > > > > > At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? > > > > > > > > It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. > > > > What bother me is the misinformation you do. > > > > > > > > > > As said it is not my problem when you will or can't understand the Mirage spec. Stay on subpar gameplay lvl then. Lucky for you there will always be a build can compensate lack of skill and understanding. I am out here for now. > > > > Surely someone playing mesmer since game launch, mirage since PoF, who regulary look at top players streams and analyse his game to improve his play is on a subpar gameplay lvl, have no clue about mesmer and only get plat 2 thanks to game carry every seasons. > > Whereas someone playing multiclass doing only paper therorycrafting, has the best view on the class, the absolute truth about skill and understanding. > > I'm sorry for you but as hurtful as it can be, you haven't this game universal understanding and what look beautiful on paper can't be a reality everytime. Moreover your definitions on relative things aren't universal too. > > As said: Talk to the 2-3 top lvl Powermirages this game only has for reasons, that helped me too. Maybe you believe them more than me. Which top lvl powermirages play ahead plat + ? I meet only one and he wasn't playing rupt. 3 seasons ago we were 3, the other 2 changed build or class. 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bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > > > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > > > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > > > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > > > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > > > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > > > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > > > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > > > > > > > > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > > > > > > > > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > > > > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > > > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > > > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > > > > > > > > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > > > > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > > > > > > > > > At which rank did you win with ChaosPU and InspiSignet just to know the base reference ? > > > > > > > > > > It's not my problem fondamentaly, I play all mesmers builds. > > > > > What bother me is the misinformation you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As said it is not my problem when you will or can't understand the Mirage spec. Stay on subpar gameplay lvl then. Lucky for you there will always be a build can compensate lack of skill and understanding. I am out here for now. > > > > > > Surely someone playing mesmer since game launch, mirage since PoF, who regulary look at top players streams and analyse his game to improve his play is on a subpar gameplay lvl, have no clue about mesmer and only get plat 2 thanks to game carry every seasons. > > > Whereas someone playing multiclass doing only paper therorycrafting, has the best view on the class, the absolute truth about skill and understanding. > > > I'm sorry for you but as hurtful as it can be, you haven't this game universal understanding and what look beautiful on paper can't be a reality everytime. Moreover your definitions on relative things aren't universal too. > > > > As said: Talk to the 2-3 top lvl Powermirages this game only has for reasons, that helped me too. Maybe you believe them more than me. > > Which top lvl powermirages play ahead plat + ? I meet only one and he wasn't playing rupt. > 3 seasons ago we were 3, the other 2 changed build or class. Check pm. And btw when you think my stuff is only based on pure theorycraft, you are delusional. There is a lot of effort in terms of ingame experience even with playing Mesmer myself with and versus good ppl, just as most other classes i play, only not as main but still since game release too and there is a lot of effort in terms of learning also by watching other good ppl play from an spectator perspective aside from the ingame experience, just as watching like every guide ever was made for the game and talking to ppl i consider very good at their classes. But as said i am out here. In the end i rly don't need to care about how good or bad Mesmer mains understand their elite specs. But it clearly makes it harder for me to blame Anet for bad balance to Mesmer when even 95% of the mains can't understand the class or the elite specs of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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