pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 yea it can't be that you got trouble with condi when you got that many cleanes. as I have said earlier. I use two cleases. one from jaunt with 2 charges and the torch skills. and distortion as last resort. and it is true that I got a bit of trouble with some of the condibuilds, but that is due to staying in their aoe which I could have avoided. also wvw allows you to disengage when you don't want to and engage when you feel safe to attack. so I mostly rely on attacking the enemy at the right time instead of me getting attacked first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > yea it can't be that you got trouble with condi when you got that many cleanes. as I have said earlier. I use two cleases. one from jaunt with 2 charges and the torch skills. and distortion as last resort. and it is true that I got a bit of trouble with some of the condibuilds, but that is due to staying in their aoe which I could have avoided. also wvw allows you to disengage when you don't want to and engage when you feel safe to attack. so I mostly rely on attacking the enemy at the right time instead of me getting attacked first. Except, sadly, it absolutely can. I runout of condi cleanses by the fourth condi-bomb, and I cant kill them fast enough because they are too tanky. Also, not everyone has Mirages mobility. I cant just disengage from a Rev if I want to, he catches up with me in no time. Condi Mirage is a condi build so you at least have the damage to match, and Distortion doesnt disable your attacks, so that gives you a certain edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 no you got me wrong on the mobility part. sure I can use jaunt as a disengage I find it a bad way of handling fights tho. I mean I could live, but I don't wanna be a thief that just opts out of combat and has multiple tries with reseting the encounter each time. I ment warclaws. from what I have seen is that you need skill 4 on warclaw in order to get an even encounter. if you don't have skill 4 you got battle maul, but if you are the second one doing it you have more hp when going into combat, bc warclaw attack can't demount you, bc of the warclaw hp on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > no you got me wrong on the mobility part. sure I can use jaunt as a disengage I find it a bad way of handling fights tho. I mean I could live, but I don't wanna be a thief that just opts out of combat and has multiple tries with reseting the encounter each time. I ment warclaws. from what I have seen is that you need skill 4 on warclaw in order to get an even encounter. if you don't have skill 4 you got battle maul, but if you are the second one doing it you have more hp when going into combat, bc warclaw attack can't demount you, bc of the warclaw hp on its own. Warclaw cant be used in-combat. Its no good for disengaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 but you can get away when someone wants to engage you with it and use it to your advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > No. > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. No. None of it actually is. Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. Power builds aren't rare. Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > How? > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. sPvP rev is a hybrid build leaning towards condi. Condi rev in WvW has 1 good weaponset and a few mediocre ones to pick as their second. > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. 2 sec in WvW and PvP 5 sec is PvE There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable. > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking. > > > > > > > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible" > > > > > > > > Could also be your build just being weak. > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. As an example Power Thief/mesmer has historically always hardcountered condi necro for example, not because those builds have a lot of clears (they don't really). Now shoring up your condi clears is generally the easiest way of improving your condi matchups but there's a lot more to it. > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. Nope they're really not. > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > Nor does the most powerful condi options. > > > > This part is true. > > > The most powerful power options also don't exist there. > > > > This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use. Except cleansing Energy Hydromancy Etc There is barely any sigils that are shared Also marauder etc are nerfed in sPvP > > It's a completely different balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible. > > > > > > > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason. > > > > > > > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die. > > > > > > > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable. > > > > It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells. > > > > Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant. Judge is 1 stack of burn Zealot flame has a tell, the bursty part is the thrown torch. Radiant for is the same Virtue of Justice is on other attacks, so has as much tell as any other skill. Now ofc zealot flame+judge can be chained but so can judge +GS2 or hammer 2 or whatever. Judge also isn't that popular in my experience. Condi guard is def too bursty though, but it does have tells. > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) > > > > > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. > > > > > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. > > > > > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, doubt it > > > > > > > > > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent? > > > > > > > > Well given that I've observed the opposite. > > > > > > Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier. > > > > Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"? > > > > No? > > > > Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless. > > Im interested in improving. But Im not oblivious enough to think improving will magically fix unfixable problems. And Im afraid the only one uninterested in reasoning is you, given that you just brush off everything that doesnt fit into your view of how things are, and still fail to explain how you paradoxically have absolutely no issues with condi revs while also having far fewer condi cleanses than neccessary. Or you know, argue that condi bombs totally have tells. I don't have fewer than necessary clearly. > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > @"lodjur.1284" > > Oh, of course, I finally get it. You *play* condi rev. No wonder other condi revs or condi builds arent doing that much damage to you, youre using resistance and condi-transfers. And of course youre dismissive of Condi revs major damage advantage and general overpoweredness, overplay their weaknesses and underplay their strengths. You dont want it to be nerfed. I really dont know why I didnt catch it as soon as you said "5 conditions removed every 30 seconds". Yeah that basically puts everything into a new, highly questionable perspective. > I didn't exactly try to hide it...? But ye that's the jalis clear. I thought you knew since before then even Anyway that revenant is weak to CC isn't exactly something that's not well known, nor is their lack of mobility, this is true for both herald and rev/ren. Also condi renegade/core condi =/= condi herald. Condi ren/rev runs Demon+Jalis meaning even less stunbreaks (but better stab) and no invulns. Condi herald I haven't ever tried defending, if you want someone to say "let's nerf infuse light and true nature - Demon" then that's me. In the ways of transfers I run with permeating, the other options are just really mediocre imo as 1 stack of 2 conditions that are easy to apply anyway is kinda pointless and the resistance one is just a worse anti-condi trait. So 6 clears on legend swap (1 cleansing channel +3 cleansing+2 transfer (if people are close). Most of it is still just cleansing+invo clear. About 10-15% resistance uptime. (2 sec duration, 5 sec cd, possible to use roughly half the time, obviously won't get used quite on CD). I "never" (close enough) use pain absoprtion because it's terrible in smallscale. So ye probably less clearing/resistance than you have I would have to imagine. > I just explained how those "tips" are simply conceptually wrong. As is every single word that follows. Im on Marauders. Obviously, you cant run Zerkers in WvW. I run as many condi cleanses as possible. Just to ensure there is no ambiguity "as many as possible" in this case means 2 condis cleared from Transmute, 3 from Sigil of Cleansing, 13 from elixir C, 2 from Toss Elixir C, 2 from Cleansing Burst. Now, technically I could also add on elixir gun for another 2 cleansed, but then I would have no stunbreak, so thats not a real option. Not saying you should run it but Elixir gun actually has a stunbreak. The toolbelt skill is one. Also that's a very reasonable amount of clears, more than I have for sure, but it's not like you're giving up a lot for them, when all of it except elixir C is optimal against both power and condi (and even that isn't exactly useless against power (vulnerability to protection is great vs power)) Best sigil in game (against everything) Best engi heal in game (against any opponent) A strong engi traitline (alchemy, good against any opponent) Then elixir C, which is a strong anti condi option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > So over the years there has been a swing from side to side as to the best condi or power and power has come out on time mostly. Now it is found that in WvW that condi has gone crazy and is almost unstoppable. Well I have come up with the solution, this will do 3 things at once. 1 Balance power and condi 2 make gear that is not being used much more viable 3 spark up some build craft. > > 1 Balance Power and Condi: this is very easy to do and it comes at something most people will not like or maybe they will. first off lower the duration of condis make them at least half the time so if it takes 10 seconds to do 5000 damage make it 5 seconds to do 5000 damage Next the ticks, everyone loves seeing those ticks grow and grow and grow but each tick would do 5000 damage over 5 seconds well no, since in 5 seconds would do 5000 damage if you reach the threshold of 25 stacks at that time a max amount of damage would take place after 5 second, so You would see a number say 50K come up with these numbers of course this is PVE and you are looking at world bosses and stuff for these kind of numbers in pvp and wvw they would have to be different. So how do we combat this well that answer is already kinda in the game. > > 2 Combating the new condi mechanic well the answer is vitality the higher your vitality the less of a % of the damage you take from condi this is along the same lines as the toughness and power lines. But what about resistance and that stuff, well that is easy too, if you have burning on you and it is 2 ticks and in 2 seconds you would take 2000 damage and you have 2 ticks of resistance for 2 seconds you take 0 damage, if you have 1 tick you take half the damage divided buy your vitality%. This will make gear like trailblazers viable in PVE, yes you can run it but the way the damage is now it take way to long to kill things and forces you into a power type play. Trailblazers in WvW is very common for roamers but that is about all. The best thing about this is that you do not need to change any traits at all, just cut the duration of condis and lower the damage by the amount of vitality they have. World Bosses with there high vitality scores would take less damage from the condi burst so say it is 50K that would be the damage they might take only 30K because of their vitality score. > > 3 The 2 biggest gears being run right now is zerker and vipers this has been the case for what seems forever, and though I personally hate both sets I do understand the reason people run them. It however leaves a large void when players like myself want to get into other content like raid but do not run the gear or the builds that everyone is looking for. This will open the doors to better build craft and open the eyes of the players running raid and stuff to see that they is a different way to do things and that it does not need to be an elitist mind set to do raids. > > So how about looking into my idea look at what it could do to the game where it makes a balance of power and condi. > > Thanks for reading I look forward to reading some comments and hopefully hearing from a dev or two, until than keep safe. **+1** good observation (hope you stay safe as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 @UNOwen.7132 you could add me and we have a few duels in wvw if you like. then we see what we are doing wrong. maybe I am totally wrong maybe you are wrong. but in a duel it is propably easier to sort things out. I mostly play pve and use wvw for dailies only so I am an occassional roamer. I mostly use zerker gear on my spikers, but want to switch to divine. for condis I use mostly rabid gear, but want to get TB instead. @lodjur.1284 would ren with ren/mallyx be considered a condi rev or a hybrid? I want it to use ren/devastation/corruption traitlines using ren stance for life siphoning purposes mostly. think the rework of them should be pretty good with this setup. weapons mace/axe shortbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > @lodjur.1284 would ren with ren/mallyx be considered a condi rev or a hybrid? I want it to use ren/devastation/corruption traitlines using ren stance for life siphoning purposes mostly. think the rework of them should be pretty good with this setup. weapons mace/axe shortbow. Kalla+Mallyx can be either, Kalla is mostly power damage (the bleed summon doesn't really do anything in WvW/PvP), but can also be taken for CC/support. Devastation would def push more towards hybrid, but mostly I'd say the kinda stats you run defines what kinda build it is, anything with both power and condi stats is a hybrid build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. > > No. None of it actually is. > > Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. > Of course he can. I mean hell, he can corrupt 4 times in a row just from pulsing AoE. Thats the whole purpose of the entire spec. > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > Power builds aren't rare. > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > 5 sec is PvE > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > > > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking. > > > > > > > > > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible" > > > > > > > > > > Could also be your build just being weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > As an example > > Power Thief/mesmer has historically always hardcountered condi necro for example, not because those builds have a lot of clears (they don't really). > > Now shoring up your condi clears is generally the easiest way of improving your condi matchups but there's a lot more to it. > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > Nope they're really not. > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > Nor does the most powerful condi options. > > > > > > > This part is true. > > > > > The most powerful power options also don't exist there. > > > > > > > This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use. > > Except > cleansing > Energy > Hydromancy > Etc > ... you do know that we have the first 2, right? We dont have hydromancy, but that one is relatively narrow. > There is barely any sigils that are shared > > Also marauder etc are nerfed in sPvP > If you mean that the base stats are lower, yes. *All* stats are lower. Their relative power compared to condi is however *higher*. > > > It's a completely different balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible. > > > > > > > > > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die. > > > > > > > > > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable. > > > > > > It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells. > > > > > > > Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant. > > Judge is 1 stack of burn > Zealot flame has a tell, the bursty part is the thrown torch. > Radiant for is the same > Virtue of Justice is on other attacks, so has as much tell as any other skill. > Whoever said they throw it. Throwing it does add damage, but were not throwing for the instant burst combo, the enemy wont survive long enough. Virtue is triggered by Judges intervention, so it has no tell. Thanks for confirming what we know. > Now ofc zealot flame+judge can be chained but so can judge +GS2 or hammer 2 or whatever. Judge also isn't that popular in my experience. > > Condi guard is def too bursty though, but it does have tells. > It doesnt. As I just explained, every single skill is instant. Thrown torch wouldnt be, but its not part of the instagib burst combo (precisely because its *not* instant). > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) > > > > > > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. > > > > > > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. > > > > > > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, doubt it > > > > > > > > > > > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent? > > > > > > > > > > Well given that I've observed the opposite. > > > > > > > > Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier. > > > > > > Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"? > > > > > > No? > > > > > > Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless. > > > > Im interested in improving. But Im not oblivious enough to think improving will magically fix unfixable problems. And Im afraid the only one uninterested in reasoning is you, given that you just brush off everything that doesnt fit into your view of how things are, and still fail to explain how you paradoxically have absolutely no issues with condi revs while also having far fewer condi cleanses than neccessary. Or you know, argue that condi bombs totally have tells. > > I don't have fewer than necessary clearly. > See the next part. > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" > > > > Oh, of course, I finally get it. You *play* condi rev. No wonder other condi revs or condi builds arent doing that much damage to you, youre using resistance and condi-transfers. And of course youre dismissive of Condi revs major damage advantage and general overpoweredness, overplay their weaknesses and underplay their strengths. You dont want it to be nerfed. I really dont know why I didnt catch it as soon as you said "5 conditions removed every 30 seconds". Yeah that basically puts everything into a new, highly questionable perspective. > > > > I didn't exactly try to hide it...? But ye that's the jalis clear. I thought you knew since before then even > Sometimes I give people the benefit of the doubt if I shouldnt. > Anyway that revenant is weak to CC isn't exactly something that's not well known, nor is their lack of mobility, this is true for both herald and rev/ren. > There are a lot of things that are "well known" that end up being wrong. Both of those are. Revenant is no more weak to CC than core Engineer, Thief, Reaper, etc. etc. Probably less even, due to being inherently tankier. As for mobility, their mobility is actually pretty good for chasing. Less good for running away, but even then permaswiftness is not something every class can claim for themselves. > Also condi renegade/core condi =/= condi herald. > > Condi ren/rev runs Demon+Jalis meaning even less stunbreaks (but better stab) and no invulns. > > Condi herald I haven't ever tried defending, if you want someone to say "let's nerf infuse light and true nature - Demon" then that's me. > > In the ways of transfers I run with permeating, the other options are just really mediocre imo as 1 stack of 2 conditions that are easy to apply anyway is kinda pointless and the resistance one is just a worse anti-condi trait. > > So 6 clears on legend swap (1 cleansing channel +3 cleansing+2 transfer (if people are close). Most of it is still just cleansing+invo clear. > > About 10-15% resistance uptime. (2 sec duration, 5 sec cd, possible to use roughly half the time, obviously won't get used quite on CD). I "never" (close enough) use pain absoprtion because it's terrible in smallscale. > > So ye probably less clearing/resistance than you have I would have to imagine. While infuse light could use a hit ,theyre not the central issue, the condi part is. Specifically, how absurd the damage is. Though again, Id just make it so condi cleanses dont remove damaging conditions, change condi durations and stacks around, then nerf the damage to compensate. I think without condi clears it would need something like a 75% nerf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > I just explained how those "tips" are simply conceptually wrong. As is every single word that follows. Im on Marauders. Obviously, you cant run Zerkers in WvW. I run as many condi cleanses as possible. Just to ensure there is no ambiguity "as many as possible" in this case means 2 condis cleared from Transmute, 3 from Sigil of Cleansing, 13 from elixir C, 2 from Toss Elixir C, 2 from Cleansing Burst. Now, technically I could also add on elixir gun for another 2 cleansed, but then I would have no stunbreak, so thats not a real option. You have more cleanses than dodges which to me says you're probably face tanking a lot of Conditions or deliberately putting yourself in bad positions in team fights. I often play core power Engineer and pre-patch I did as well. I now use Pistol/Shield with a mixture of Valk/Mara/zerk and my only source of cleanses are a sigil and Healing Turret. I rely on Grenade Kit as my primary source of damage, and CC's + Blinds for defense. I have relatively poor mobility so I have to situate myself appropriately in team fights ( where, because of my choice of build, I'm almost completely useless ) and my build does not scale very well in outnumbered fights so most times I'm forced to avoid those if I can help it. Besides Condi Rev and Burn Guard, I have literally _no_ issues against Condition builds with minimal cleanses, low mobility, and damage that is heavily reliant on burst. I am by no means a skilled player, but I'm confident that I'm a smart one. I know my weaknesses, my strengths, I know how to read a situation and I know how to make ones that benefit me occur. With my extremely sub-optimal and awkward build I'm capable of doing 50% of a Trailblazer builds' HP in a single Grenade Barrage and have enough defensive options and emergency cleanses to deal with a few mistakes if I fail to dodge or counter appropriately. I don't say "condi's OP" when I die to a condi build. I say "I have only a few cleanses so certain builds with sustained sources of Condition application will be an uphill battle. If I played something more optimal, it might be less so." You're not supposed to take every possible cleanse... That literally means you don't understand how to play and are relying on reset options to carry you the same way you would if you could stack several dodges. Why learn how to fight something if you can just negate it completely. That's why Energy sigil Staff/Staff Bound Thieves are and have always been a meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > I just explained how those "tips" are simply conceptually wrong. As is every single word that follows. Im on Marauders. Obviously, you cant run Zerkers in WvW. I run as many condi cleanses as possible. Just to ensure there is no ambiguity "as many as possible" in this case means 2 condis cleared from Transmute, 3 from Sigil of Cleansing, 13 from elixir C, 2 from Toss Elixir C, 2 from Cleansing Burst. Now, technically I could also add on elixir gun for another 2 cleansed, but then I would have no stunbreak, so thats not a real option. > > You have more cleanses than dodges which to me says you're probably face tanking a lot of Conditions or deliberately putting yourself in bad positions in team fights. > Engineer doesnt really have any active evades. I am running Tools though, so both Adrenal Implant and Vigor access are there. And no, and no. You just take a lot of condis from pulsing AoEs, instant cast skills, and so on. > I often play core power Engineer and pre-patch I did as well. I now use Pistol/Shield with a mixture of Valk/Mara/zerk and my only source of cleanses are a sigil and Healing Turret. I rely on Grenade Kit as my primary source of damage, and CC's + Blinds for defense. I have relatively poor mobility so I have to situate myself appropriately in team fights ( where, because of my choice of build, I'm almost completely useless ) and my build does not scale very well in outnumbered fights so most times I'm forced to avoid those if I can help it. > I use Rifle. Pistol doesnt do anything ,and while shield is nice, its not worth picking pistol for. > Besides Condi Rev and Burn Guard, I have literally _no_ issues against Condition builds with minimal cleanses, low mobility, and damage that is heavily reliant on burst. I am by no means a skilled player, but I'm confident that I'm a smart one. I know my weaknesses, my strengths, I know how to read a situation and I know how to make ones that benefit me occur. With my extremely sub-optimal and awkward build I'm capable of doing 50% of a Trailblazer builds' HP in a single Grenade Barrage and have enough defensive options and emergency cleanses to deal with a few mistakes if I fail to dodge or counter appropriately. "Besides the 2 most broken condi builds I have no problem against condi builds". Though Im going to question that, because I dont see how your build would even handle immob spam condi druid, or even condi mirage. Both of those should obliterate you. And yes, you can hit decently hard with Grenade Barrage, but thats assuming you get to hit the whole thing, and they dont dodge it. Unlike their skills, yours are telegraphed and avoidable. > I don't say "condi's OP" when I die to a condi build. I say "I have only a few cleanses so certain builds with sustained sources of Condition application will be an uphill battle. If I played something more optimal, it might be less so." > Which, ignoring that most builds dont fare any better, is also a problem. You shouldnt have to go "well I cant play this build because condi obliterates it and were in a condi meta". You dont have builds that go "well, power is the meta right now, guess I cant play". > You're not supposed to take every possible cleanse... That literally means you don't understand how to play and are relying on reset options to carry you the same way you would if you could stack several dodges. Why learn how to fight something if you can just negate it completely. That's why Energy sigil Staff/Staff Bound Thieves are and have always been a meme. It doesnt. It means that I know how to play, but Im also not stupid enough to not realise that since most condi damage is instant, or lacks any kind of telegraph, or is on-X effects that dont get consumed, there is *no* way to actually avoid big condi bursts like there are with power. Its experience from optimally dodging, and still being obliterated with condi effects. I take every single cleanse because I tried fewer, and every time I realised, it wasnt enough, the builds are too overtuned to be able to get away with fewer. Its frankly a joke to claim its because I dont understand how to play when its exactly *because* I understand how to play that I take every condi cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > since most condi damage is instant, or lacks any kind of telegraph, or is on-X effects that dont get consumed, there is *no* way to actually avoid big condi bursts like there are with power. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Flame 3 1/4 second channel. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Fire Visible projectile, has a travel time. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flames_of_War_(warrior_skill) AOE, very visible. Don't melee. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blaze_Breaker Massive spikes erupt from the caster. Very visible. Straight line. Clear animation. Mesmer torch skills are instant. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harrowing_Wave 1/2 second cast time. Cone effect. Low cast time but very obvious visual. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse Extremely visible tell and animation. Ground even lights up. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison_Dart_Volley 1 3/4 second cast time channeled skill. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch From experience, misses so often it's almost not worth using. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet Projectile. Yes, low cast time. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Images 2 1/4 second cast time channeled skill. Giant purple beam = DODGE/INTERRUPT. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter 2 second channel. Icon appears on status bar = DO NOT ATTACK. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption Very obvious tell. Yes, low cast time. Skill has been repeatedly nerfed. I can go on and on over this. There are skills with low cast times and/or recharge but the most important ones to avoid are often perfectly visible and crucial for the caster to land. The very same can be said of many power skills. I absolutely cannot stand when people say "bUt ConDiTion SKiLlS haVe NO tElLS." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > since most condi damage is instant, or lacks any kind of telegraph, or is on-X effects that dont get consumed, there is *no* way to actually avoid big condi bursts like there are with power. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Flame > 3 1/4 second channel. > Not part of the burst combo. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Fire > Visible projectile, has a travel time. > Not part of the burst combo (precisely because it requires channeling). You could precast it and then intervention, but thats too jank. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flames_of_War_(warrior_skill) > AOE, very visible. Don't melee. > Noone runs Condi Berserker. Mostly because its too telegraphed. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blaze_Breaker > Massive spikes erupt from the caster. Very visible. Straight line. Clear animation. > See above. > Mesmer torch skills are instant. > Correct. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harrowing_Wave > 1/2 second cast time. Cone effect. Low cast time but very obvious visual. > Mostly used when youre feared or otherwise CCd. Not part of the main burst combo. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse > Extremely visible tell and animation. Ground even lights up. > See above. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison_Dart_Volley > 1 3/4 second cast time channeled skill. > Noone uses condi Engineer anymore because ... > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch > From experience, misses so often it's almost not worth using. > Yeah, this part. And the fact that the traits were nerfed to hell. When Condi Engineer was used, it primarily relied on on-X effects like Sharpshooter, Incendiary Rounds Incendiary Powder, Shrapnel and if the Holosmith version was run, Solar Focusing Lens and Thermal Release Valve. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet > Projectile. Yes, low cast time. > Typically impossible to dodge unless predicted. Too short a cast time and too subtle an animation. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Images > 2 1/4 second cast time channeled skill. Giant purple beam = DODGE/INTERRUPT. > Not typically used. If used, used during Mirage Cloak, making interrupting impossible. Channeled skills dont care about dodges much. Blocking works though, part of why its not used. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter > 2 second channel. Icon appears on status bar = DO NOT ATTACK. > Used on incoming projectiles/attack, not to bait something out. Practically impossible to avoid. But also not typically used. Scepter isnt that common a weapon on mirages now. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption > Very obvious tell. Yes, low cast time. Skill has been repeatedly nerfed. > 0.75 isnt even low. This one would be fine, but is typically used under fear. > I can go on and on over this. There are skills with low cast times and/or recharge but the most important ones to avoid are often perfectly visible and crucial for the caster to land. The very same can be said of many power skills. I absolutely cannot stand when people say "bUt ConDiTion SKiLlS haVe NO tElLS." Sadly, no. Let me give you a list of the *actually* most important ones, or the sources of condi damage, accross builds. Burn Guardian: Judges intervention (instant), Virtue of justice (triggered by Intervention, instant), Zealot's Flame and its trait version (instant). Fire is only used when pre-cast, and its usually not used because it allows for reaction (and makes it clear youre about to burst them). Only when out of field of view. Condi Rev: Invoke Torment and the Demon form of Call, tell that appears *after* the damage and instant respectively. Embrace the Darkness, pulsing AoE. Doom and Torment sigils, on-X effects that arent consumed. The weapon skills also cause pulsing AoE fields. Typically more dodgable however. Condi Mirage: Not sure. Im not familiar with the most current version of the build. If its anything like the previous one though, its mostly burst out of stealth, burst from CC, burst on immob, and phantasmal axes that have a bad habit of still having a couple of them hit you even when you dodge because of how jank their seeking is. And Jaunt and Cry of Frustration which are instant and "instant but your clones have to reach them, but if theyre close enough theyre just instant", respectively. Condi Ranger (unsure which version is the best, seen all of them). Sharpened Edges, Vulture Stance, Sharpened Spine, Poison Master, Refined Toxins, Sharpening Stone any sigils used, all on-X effects that dont get consumed (i.e. cant be dodged). Poison Volley, too fast and too subtle of an animation to dodge (Ive played a lot of condi ranger. I still cant tell when theyre using it quickly). Crippling Shot, on-X trait that isnt consumed. Crossfire. Rapid fire autoattack. Not much to add here. Avoidability, basically none. You can avoid stuff like Entangle and the Torch skills, but theyre not major. Oh and potentially fire projectile finishers from Bonfire. Condi thief (not *as* good, but Ill still list them off): Venoms, on-X effects that dont get consumed. Bewildering ambush, instant. Shadow Strike, practically instant. Caltrops, instant. Lotus Training, first hit is nearly instant (does very little damage though, so). Repeater, channeled skill, hard to full avoid. Sneak attack, channeled skill, hard to fully avoid. On-x sigils, same as before. Largely unavoidable. Also largely not good, but I digress. Engineers, if they *were* good, would also largely be on-X traits. Burn Weaver: Primordial stance, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Lava Skin, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Burning Precision, on-x. Flame Shield, basically forces you to stop attacking or take major damage. Stopping to attack for 4 seconds every time the Weaver gains a flame shield is not realistic. Glyph of Elemental Power, on-X effect. Also various fire fields. Several relatively avoidable attacks though. Condi Scourge. Ill just skip through it, same deal, on-X effects, pulsing effects, attacks off of stun, yadda yadda yadda. Oh and boon corrupt. Slightly more avoidable if you can cc-break the fears. In conclusion: Condi skills and applications do in fact largely not have any tells. Thats what people are referring to. There is no equivalent for power, power, if it wants to hit you hard, needs to hit you with telegraphed attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > since most condi damage is instant, or lacks any kind of telegraph, or is on-X effects that dont get consumed, there is *no* way to actually avoid big condi bursts like there are with power. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Flame > > 3 1/4 second channel. > > > > Not part of the burst combo. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Fire > > Visible projectile, has a travel time. > > > > Not part of the burst combo (precisely because it requires channeling). You could precast it and then intervention, but thats too jank. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flames_of_War_(warrior_skill) > > AOE, very visible. Don't melee. > > > > Noone runs Condi Berserker. Mostly because its too telegraphed. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blaze_Breaker > > Massive spikes erupt from the caster. Very visible. Straight line. Clear animation. > > > > See above. > > > Mesmer torch skills are instant. > > > > Correct. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harrowing_Wave > > 1/2 second cast time. Cone effect. Low cast time but very obvious visual. > > > > Mostly used when youre feared or otherwise CCd. Not part of the main burst combo. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse > > Extremely visible tell and animation. Ground even lights up. > > > > See above. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison_Dart_Volley > > 1 3/4 second cast time channeled skill. > > > > Noone uses condi Engineer anymore because ... > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch > > From experience, misses so often it's almost not worth using. > > > > Yeah, this part. And the fact that the traits were nerfed to hell. When Condi Engineer was used, it primarily relied on on-X effects like Sharpshooter, Incendiary Rounds Incendiary Powder, Shrapnel and if the Holosmith version was run, Solar Focusing Lens and Thermal Release Valve. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet > > Projectile. Yes, low cast time. > > > > Typically impossible to dodge unless predicted. Too short a cast time and too subtle an animation. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Images > > 2 1/4 second cast time channeled skill. Giant purple beam = DODGE/INTERRUPT. > > > > Not typically used. If used, used during Mirage Cloak, making interrupting impossible. Channeled skills dont care about dodges much. Blocking works though, part of why its not used. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter > > 2 second channel. Icon appears on status bar = DO NOT ATTACK. > > > > Used on incoming projectiles/attack, not to bait something out. Practically impossible to avoid. But also not typically used. Scepter isnt that common a weapon on mirages now. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption > > Very obvious tell. Yes, low cast time. Skill has been repeatedly nerfed. > > > > 0.75 isnt even low. This one would be fine, but is typically used under fear. > > > I can go on and on over this. There are skills with low cast times and/or recharge but the most important ones to avoid are often perfectly visible and crucial for the caster to land. The very same can be said of many power skills. I absolutely cannot stand when people say "bUt ConDiTion SKiLlS haVe NO tElLS." > > Sadly, no. Let me give you a list of the *actually* most important ones, or the sources of condi damage, accross builds. > > Burn Guardian: Judges intervention (instant), Virtue of justice (triggered by Intervention, instant), Zealot's Flame and its trait version (instant). Fire is only used when pre-cast, and its usually not used because it allows for reaction (and makes it clear youre about to burst them). Only when out of field of view. > > Condi Rev: Invoke Torment and the Demon form of Call, tell that appears *after* the damage and instant respectively. Embrace the Darkness, pulsing AoE. Doom and Torment sigils, on-X effects that arent consumed. The weapon skills also cause pulsing AoE fields. Typically more dodgable however. > > Condi Mirage: Not sure. Im not familiar with the most current version of the build. If its anything like the previous one though, its mostly burst out of stealth, burst from CC, burst on immob, and phantasmal axes that have a bad habit of still having a couple of them hit you even when you dodge because of how jank their seeking is. And Jaunt and Cry of Frustration which are instant and "instant but your clones have to reach them, but if theyre close enough theyre just instant", respectively. > > Condi Ranger (unsure which version is the best, seen all of them). Sharpened Edges, Vulture Stance, Sharpened Spine, Poison Master, Refined Toxins, Sharpening Stone any sigils used, all on-X effects that dont get consumed (i.e. cant be dodged). Poison Volley, too fast and too subtle of an animation to dodge (Ive played a lot of condi ranger. I still cant tell when theyre using it quickly). Crippling Shot, on-X trait that isnt consumed. Crossfire. Rapid fire autoattack. Not much to add here. Avoidability, basically none. You can avoid stuff like Entangle and the Torch skills, but theyre not major. Oh and potentially fire projectile finishers from Bonfire. > > Condi thief (not *as* good, but Ill still list them off): Venoms, on-X effects that dont get consumed. Bewildering ambush, instant. Shadow Strike, practically instant. Caltrops, instant. Lotus Training, first hit is nearly instant (does very little damage though, so). Repeater, channeled skill, hard to full avoid. Sneak attack, channeled skill, hard to fully avoid. On-x sigils, same as before. Largely unavoidable. Also largely not good, but I digress. > > Engineers, if they *were* good, would also largely be on-X traits. > > Burn Weaver: Primordial stance, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Lava Skin, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Burning Precision, on-x. Flame Shield, basically forces you to stop attacking or take major damage. Stopping to attack for 4 seconds every time the Weaver gains a flame shield is not realistic. Glyph of Elemental Power, on-X effect. Also various fire fields. Several relatively avoidable attacks though. > > Condi Scourge. Ill just skip through it, same deal, on-X effects, pulsing effects, attacks off of stun, yadda yadda yadda. Oh and boon corrupt. Slightly more avoidable if you can cc-break the fears. > > In conclusion: Condi skills and applications do in fact largely not have any tells. Thats what people are referring to. There is no equivalent for power, power, if it wants to hit you hard, needs to hit you with telegraphed attacks. Looks like a lot of that is apply X Condition with next attack to me. Which means yes, they do have tells. Sharpening Stone for example means what ever attack is used next applies Bleeds. Any attack used is going to have a cast time. Sharpening Stone doesn't just apply Bleed to the target. Similar things could be said of other skills you've listed and with Guard in particular, it pretty well only applies Burn anyway. I think everyone agrees that Guard has too much Burn potential but the point is that it lacks cover Conditions which make it's primary bursts easy to negate. You make some points I agree with but I'm done participating in this thread because I've been defending this same exact situation for the last 6+ years. It's tiresome and I'm as bored of repeating myself as I am of seeing the same complaints with the same answers. Bottom line is that WvW is not perfectly balanced and never will be. There will always be outliers and Conditions will always be something that punish the unprepared. Sometimes a Condition meta arises but through out most of WvW's history it has been Power meta after Power meta. The current one is a relatively even split between the two with small scale favoring Condition and large scale favoring Power. ANet has done a good job with the most recent balance pass but there are still things that need to be adjusted - something they had forewarned before the patch went live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. > > > > No. None of it actually is. > > > > Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. > > > > Of course he can. I mean hell, he can corrupt 4 times in a row just from pulsing AoE. Thats the whole purpose of the entire spec. Do you facetank well of corruption/ghastly breach? If so, don't. > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. Burnguard actually has fairly bad personal clears (outside of burnbrand which is bad for other reasons). I hate burnguards as much as anyone, but try to keep things accurate. Condi Necro does indeed have great personal clears and condi management. Herald is all about transfers. That much is true The sPvP build is all about resistance Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. They're by far the most common build type. > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. All of it is very well telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > > > > > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also be your build just being weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > > As an example > > > > Power Thief/mesmer has historically always hardcountered condi necro for example, not because those builds have a lot of clears (they don't really). > > > > Now shoring up your condi clears is generally the easiest way of improving your condi matchups but there's a lot more to it. > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > Nor does the most powerful condi options. > > > > > > > > > > This part is true. > > > > > > > The most powerful power options also don't exist there. > > > > > > > > > > This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use. > > > > Except > > cleansing > > Energy > > Hydromancy > > Etc > > > > ... you do know that we have the first 2, right? We dont have hydromancy, but that one is relatively narrow. Energy in sPvP is 25% instead of 50% Cleansing is 1 condi instead of 3. > > There is barely any sigils that are shared > > > > Also marauder etc are nerfed in sPvP > > > > If you mean that the base stats are lower, yes. *All* stats are lower. Their relative power compared to condi is however *higher*. Nah marauder gives the same amount of stats as berserker, 3000, in WvW marauder gives more stats than berserker. > > > > It's a completely different balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable. > > > > > > > > It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells. > > > > > > > > > > Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant. > > > > Judge is 1 stack of burn > > Zealot flame has a tell, the bursty part is the thrown torch. > > Radiant for is the same > > Virtue of Justice is on other attacks, so has as much tell as any other skill. > > > > Whoever said they throw it. Throwing it does add damage, but were not throwing for the instant burst combo, the enemy wont survive long enough. Virtue is triggered by Judges intervention, so it has no tell. Thanks for confirming what we know. Throwing is where the burst of zealot's flame is from, the biggest burst you can do that's untelegraphed on burn guard is. Zealot's flame, wait for last tick, pre-cast the throw, cast intervention. But unless they're doing it from a location where you can't see them you can actually see them precasting Zealot's Flame. Either way, condi guard is over the top, but you are wrong about what parts of it. > > Now ofc zealot flame+judge can be chained but so can judge +GS2 or hammer 2 or whatever. Judge also isn't that popular in my experience. > > > > Condi guard is def too bursty though, but it does have tells. > > > > It doesnt. As I just explained, every single skill is instant. Thrown torch wouldnt be, but its not part of the instagib burst combo (precisely because its *not* instant). But it is, you precast it. I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) > > > > > > > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. > > > > > > > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, doubt it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent? > > > > > > > > > > > > Well given that I've observed the opposite. > > > > > > > > > > Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier. > > > > > > > > Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"? > > > > > > > > No? > > > > > > > > Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless. > > > > > > Im interested in improving. But Im not oblivious enough to think improving will magically fix unfixable problems. And Im afraid the only one uninterested in reasoning is you, given that you just brush off everything that doesnt fit into your view of how things are, and still fail to explain how you paradoxically have absolutely no issues with condi revs while also having far fewer condi cleanses than neccessary. Or you know, argue that condi bombs totally have tells. > > > > I don't have fewer than necessary clearly. > > > > See the next part. > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" > > > > > > Oh, of course, I finally get it. You *play* condi rev. No wonder other condi revs or condi builds arent doing that much damage to you, youre using resistance and condi-transfers. And of course youre dismissive of Condi revs major damage advantage and general overpoweredness, overplay their weaknesses and underplay their strengths. You dont want it to be nerfed. I really dont know why I didnt catch it as soon as you said "5 conditions removed every 30 seconds". Yeah that basically puts everything into a new, highly questionable perspective. > > > > > > > I didn't exactly try to hide it...? But ye that's the jalis clear. I thought you knew since before then even > > > > Sometimes I give people the benefit of the doubt if I shouldnt. There's no benefit of the doubt to give here. > > Anyway that revenant is weak to CC isn't exactly something that's not well known, nor is their lack of mobility, this is true for both herald and rev/ren. > > > > There are a lot of things that are "well known" that end up being wrong. Both of those are. Revenant is no more weak to CC than core Engineer, Thief, Reaper, etc. etc. Probably less even, due to being inherently tankier. As for mobility, their mobility is actually pretty good for chasing. Less good for running away, but even then permaswiftness is not something every class can claim for themselves. Tbh core engi isn't exactly "strong" atm, at least I haven't seen any that really impressed me, but if I did I would be willing to change my mind on it. But it def has access to better stunbreaks and stability than condi rev does. I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > > Also condi renegade/core condi =/= condi herald. > > > > Condi ren/rev runs Demon+Jalis meaning even less stunbreaks (but better stab) and no invulns. > > > > Condi herald I haven't ever tried defending, if you want someone to say "let's nerf infuse light and true nature - Demon" then that's me. > > > > In the ways of transfers I run with permeating, the other options are just really mediocre imo as 1 stack of 2 conditions that are easy to apply anyway is kinda pointless and the resistance one is just a worse anti-condi trait. > > > > So 6 clears on legend swap (1 cleansing channel +3 cleansing+2 transfer (if people are close). Most of it is still just cleansing+invo clear. > > > > About 10-15% resistance uptime. (2 sec duration, 5 sec cd, possible to use roughly half the time, obviously won't get used quite on CD). I "never" (close enough) use pain absoprtion because it's terrible in smallscale. > > > > So ye probably less clearing/resistance than you have I would have to imagine. > > While infuse light could use a hit ,theyre not the central issue, the condi part is. Specifically, how absurd the damage is. Though again, Id just make it so condi cleanses dont remove damaging conditions, change condi durations and stacks around, then nerf the damage to compensate. I think without condi clears it would need something like a 75% nerf? Hard to say really how much it would need to be nerfed by if you could no longer clear condis, definitively less than 75% though. But that is something I doubt anet would ever even consider doing so not gonna have a discussion about thing number. Either way a terrible suggestion, condi management is a core aspect of GW2 combat. There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > since most condi damage is instant, or lacks any kind of telegraph, or is on-X effects that dont get consumed, there is *no* way to actually avoid big condi bursts like there are with power. > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Flame > > > 3 1/4 second channel. > > > > > > > Not part of the burst combo. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Fire > > > Visible projectile, has a travel time. > > > > > > > Not part of the burst combo (precisely because it requires channeling). You could precast it and then intervention, but thats too jank. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flames_of_War_(warrior_skill) > > > AOE, very visible. Don't melee. > > > > > > > Noone runs Condi Berserker. Mostly because its too telegraphed. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blaze_Breaker > > > Massive spikes erupt from the caster. Very visible. Straight line. Clear animation. > > > > > > > See above. > > > > > Mesmer torch skills are instant. > > > > > > > Correct. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harrowing_Wave > > > 1/2 second cast time. Cone effect. Low cast time but very obvious visual. > > > > > > > Mostly used when youre feared or otherwise CCd. Not part of the main burst combo. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Oppressive_Collapse > > > Extremely visible tell and animation. Ground even lights up. > > > > > > > See above. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison_Dart_Volley > > > 1 3/4 second cast time channeled skill. > > > > > > > Noone uses condi Engineer anymore because ... > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch > > > From experience, misses so often it's almost not worth using. > > > > > > > Yeah, this part. And the fact that the traits were nerfed to hell. When Condi Engineer was used, it primarily relied on on-X effects like Sharpshooter, Incendiary Rounds Incendiary Powder, Shrapnel and if the Holosmith version was run, Solar Focusing Lens and Thermal Release Valve. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet > > > Projectile. Yes, low cast time. > > > > > > > Typically impossible to dodge unless predicted. Too short a cast time and too subtle an animation. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Images > > > 2 1/4 second cast time channeled skill. Giant purple beam = DODGE/INTERRUPT. > > > > > > > Not typically used. If used, used during Mirage Cloak, making interrupting impossible. Channeled skills dont care about dodges much. Blocking works though, part of why its not used. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter > > > 2 second channel. Icon appears on status bar = DO NOT ATTACK. > > > > > > > Used on incoming projectiles/attack, not to bait something out. Practically impossible to avoid. But also not typically used. Scepter isnt that common a weapon on mirages now. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption > > > Very obvious tell. Yes, low cast time. Skill has been repeatedly nerfed. > > > > > > > 0.75 isnt even low. This one would be fine, but is typically used under fear. > > > > > I can go on and on over this. There are skills with low cast times and/or recharge but the most important ones to avoid are often perfectly visible and crucial for the caster to land. The very same can be said of many power skills. I absolutely cannot stand when people say "bUt ConDiTion SKiLlS haVe NO tElLS." > > > > Sadly, no. Let me give you a list of the *actually* most important ones, or the sources of condi damage, accross builds. > > > > Burn Guardian: Judges intervention (instant), Virtue of justice (triggered by Intervention, instant), Zealot's Flame and its trait version (instant). Fire is only used when pre-cast, and its usually not used because it allows for reaction (and makes it clear youre about to burst them). Only when out of field of view. > > > > Condi Rev: Invoke Torment and the Demon form of Call, tell that appears *after* the damage and instant respectively. Embrace the Darkness, pulsing AoE. Doom and Torment sigils, on-X effects that arent consumed. The weapon skills also cause pulsing AoE fields. Typically more dodgable however. > > > > Condi Mirage: Not sure. Im not familiar with the most current version of the build. If its anything like the previous one though, its mostly burst out of stealth, burst from CC, burst on immob, and phantasmal axes that have a bad habit of still having a couple of them hit you even when you dodge because of how jank their seeking is. And Jaunt and Cry of Frustration which are instant and "instant but your clones have to reach them, but if theyre close enough theyre just instant", respectively. > > > > Condi Ranger (unsure which version is the best, seen all of them). Sharpened Edges, Vulture Stance, Sharpened Spine, Poison Master, Refined Toxins, Sharpening Stone any sigils used, all on-X effects that dont get consumed (i.e. cant be dodged). Poison Volley, too fast and too subtle of an animation to dodge (Ive played a lot of condi ranger. I still cant tell when theyre using it quickly). Crippling Shot, on-X trait that isnt consumed. Crossfire. Rapid fire autoattack. Not much to add here. Avoidability, basically none. You can avoid stuff like Entangle and the Torch skills, but theyre not major. Oh and potentially fire projectile finishers from Bonfire. > > > > Condi thief (not *as* good, but Ill still list them off): Venoms, on-X effects that dont get consumed. Bewildering ambush, instant. Shadow Strike, practically instant. Caltrops, instant. Lotus Training, first hit is nearly instant (does very little damage though, so). Repeater, channeled skill, hard to full avoid. Sneak attack, channeled skill, hard to fully avoid. On-x sigils, same as before. Largely unavoidable. Also largely not good, but I digress. > > > > Engineers, if they *were* good, would also largely be on-X traits. > > > > Burn Weaver: Primordial stance, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Lava Skin, instant activation, pulsing AoE. Burning Precision, on-x. Flame Shield, basically forces you to stop attacking or take major damage. Stopping to attack for 4 seconds every time the Weaver gains a flame shield is not realistic. Glyph of Elemental Power, on-X effect. Also various fire fields. Several relatively avoidable attacks though. > > > > Condi Scourge. Ill just skip through it, same deal, on-X effects, pulsing effects, attacks off of stun, yadda yadda yadda. Oh and boon corrupt. Slightly more avoidable if you can cc-break the fears. > > > > In conclusion: Condi skills and applications do in fact largely not have any tells. Thats what people are referring to. There is no equivalent for power, power, if it wants to hit you hard, needs to hit you with telegraphed attacks. > > Looks like a lot of that is apply X Condition with next attack to me. Which means yes, they do have tells. Sharpening Stone for example means what ever attack is used next applies Bleeds. Any attack used is going to have a cast time. Sharpening Stone doesn't just apply Bleed to the target. Similar things could be said of other skills you've listed and with Guard in particular, it pretty well only applies Burn anyway. I think everyone agrees that Guard has too much Burn potential but the point is that it lacks cover Conditions which make it's primary bursts easy to negate. > The problem is that its not just the next attack. Its the next attack *that hits*. Sure, you can dodge the very next attack (well, some of them, others are too fast or instant). But to avoid the damage from all these on-X traits, you dont need to just dodge the next attack. You need to dodge *every single attack* launched during the entire 30-40 second duration. Put bluntly, there isnt a single build in the game capable of doing that. And thats the crux with condi. With power, you just need to dodge, block or invuln through the highly telegraphed, high damage attacks. With condi, those attacks are either instant, or they are *any* attack that hits you.There is no telegraph. Nothing you can just dodge. > You make some points I agree with but I'm done participating in this thread because I've been defending this same exact situation for the last 6+ years. It's tiresome and I'm as bored of repeating myself as I am of seeing the same complaints with the same answers. > There has never been an answer to this problem. Only the answer that condi might not be good enough. But condi always had conceptual problem. Its complete lack of tells and unavoidability. Its incredibly binary nature, where depending on the number of condi clears you have, its useless or unbeatable. > Bottom line is that WvW is not perfectly balanced and never will be. There will always be outliers and Conditions will always be something that punish the unprepared. Sometimes a Condition meta arises but through out most of WvW's history it has been Power meta after Power meta. The current one is a relatively even split between the two with small scale favoring Condition and large scale favoring Power. ANet has done a good job with the most recent balance pass but there are still things that need to be adjusted - something they had forewarned before the patch went live. I mean true, but that doesnt mean condi doesnt have major design issues that currently are also balance issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. > > > > > > No. None of it actually is. > > > > > > Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. > > > > > > > Of course he can. I mean hell, he can corrupt 4 times in a row just from pulsing AoE. Thats the whole purpose of the entire spec. > > Do you facetank well of corruption/ghastly breach? If so, don't. > When it comes to AoEs, especially on a spec that likes to fear you, not being hit by pulsing AoEs is not something thats your choice. > > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > > First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. > We absolutely are in a condi meta, and there have been several. Condi is *far* more common than power right now. > Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. > The point is that unless youre a support, like say Firebrand, or you go all-in on it to maximize your heals, like say Weaver, its just worse. > Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > > Herald is all about transfers. > > The sPvP build is all about resistance > > Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > The WvW build is also all about resistance. Its the trademark of the bleeding legend. > > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > > They're by far the most common build type. > In Large Scale? Yes. In Small Scale? Far and away, no. > > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > > Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > Thats when Decimate was used. Chilling was never really used. > > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > > In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. > > The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > Even if you reliably can get fury, it can reliably be stripped. Relying on boons is a fools errand currently. > > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. > Again, used to be that way, isnt anymore. > But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. > Mace 3 is not the main worry, but yes, it has a cooldown. And yes, but you only need those 50% (unless the opponent is also a condi build). > All of it is very well telegraphed. > Except for the pulsing AoE, Invoke Torment, Call of the Demon, on-X traits, so on and so forth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. > Luck, good prediction or staring at the hotbar. The only 3 options. > You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. > Im quite quick with mental calculations, and thats still asking too much from me. I dont imagine people who have less of an affinity have that as an option. > Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > Hah, no, not even remotely in the slightest. Most bursty power skills have bright telegraphs and cast times of over 0.75 seconds. Some even over a second. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. > My point was that condi as a whole is too strong. And that it doesnt at all need the free survivability it can get. Condi Rev in WvW decided to go hybrid because their survivability is great even without free stats, and their damage is absurd. > If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. > > The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > The power stat on Carrion hardly increases the damage it does. Power Damage needs 3 stats after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > That doesnt work. Youre not moving faster than a perma-swiftness Rev. Rangers mobility is great when it does things like Swoop, or activating lesser lightning Zephyr. You cant constantly swap between longbow and GS in-combat though. You gotta stick to one. And then it doesnt really work. > > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > Fair enough. I hadnt paid attention to it because it wasnt in the patch notes. > > > > > > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also be your build just being weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > > Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. > You cant claim both this and say "Oh Im totally fine with just 4 clears". Thats just contradicting yoruself. Anyway, no, its not, because at least it has comparable damage, rather than a fraction of the damage. > The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > At least 40%. More if you have any concentration, which I believe that build would have. > > > As an example > > > > > > Power Thief/mesmer has historically always hardcountered condi necro for example, not because those builds have a lot of clears (they don't really). > > > > > > Now shoring up your condi clears is generally the easiest way of improving your condi matchups but there's a lot more to it. > > > > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > Uh, no, they did oneshot. Burst and reset doesnt work for thief, because then the Scourge turns around and either blasts the thief for a bunch of condis (which the thief struggles to get rid of and most likely dies to), or if its a power build does Ghastly Claws or Reaper Shroud stuff. For Mesmer, resetting wasnt really much of an option. Too long of a cooldown on any way to reset. > > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > And yet the builds and their usage are nearly identical. As I said, the only difference I could see was SA rifle, and SA rifle isnt really a thing either. > > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > > > Nor does the most powerful condi options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This part is true. > > > > > > > > > The most powerful power options also don't exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use. > > > > > > Except > > > cleansing > > > Energy > > > Hydromancy > > > Etc > > > > > > > ... you do know that we have the first 2, right? We dont have hydromancy, but that one is relatively narrow. > > Energy in sPvP is 25% instead of 50% > Cleansing is 1 condi instead of 3. > > > > > There is barely any sigils that are shared > > > > > > Also marauder etc are nerfed in sPvP > > > > > > > If you mean that the base stats are lower, yes. *All* stats are lower. Their relative power compared to condi is however *higher*. > > Nah marauder gives the same amount of stats as berserker, 3000, in WvW marauder gives more stats than berserker. > Still true for all stats, not just the power ones. Sides, it didnt stop Marauders from being the best option. > > > > > It's a completely different balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant. > > > > > > Judge is 1 stack of burn > > > Zealot flame has a tell, the bursty part is the thrown torch. > > > Radiant for is the same > > > Virtue of Justice is on other attacks, so has as much tell as any other skill. > > > > > > > Whoever said they throw it. Throwing it does add damage, but were not throwing for the instant burst combo, the enemy wont survive long enough. Virtue is triggered by Judges intervention, so it has no tell. Thanks for confirming what we know. > > Throwing is where the burst of zealot's flame is from, the biggest burst you can do that's untelegraphed on burn guard is. > The burst is from stacking a bunch of different burn procs all at once. Zealot's Fire would be nice, but it makes it telegraphed. And telegraphed means reactable. > Zealot's flame, wait for last tick, pre-cast the throw, cast intervention. But unless they're doing it from a location where you can't see them you can actually see them precasting Zealot's Flame. > > Either way, condi guard is over the top, but you are wrong about what parts of it. > > > > Now ofc zealot flame+judge can be chained but so can judge +GS2 or hammer 2 or whatever. Judge also isn't that popular in my experience. > > > > > > Condi guard is def too bursty though, but it does have tells. > > > > > > > It doesnt. As I just explained, every single skill is instant. Thrown torch wouldnt be, but its not part of the instagib burst combo (precisely because its *not* instant). > > But it is, you precast it. > Thats not instant. It lets the opponent react if they see you. > I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib > It is why, and it does (nearly) instagib. The first tick does up to 80% of their health, and the next tick kills them if they dont instantly cleanse (And you just burn em again if they do). > SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered > The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > Eh, SoJ is good in large scale, but much worse in small scale as its too small of a radius. > > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > Hardly. Its not great in large scale because firebrands, but in small scale skirmishes its pretty great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, doubt it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well given that I've observed the opposite. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier. > > > > > > > > > > Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"? > > > > > > > > > > No? > > > > > > > > > > Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless. > > > > > > > > Im interested in improving. But Im not oblivious enough to think improving will magically fix unfixable problems. And Im afraid the only one uninterested in reasoning is you, given that you just brush off everything that doesnt fit into your view of how things are, and still fail to explain how you paradoxically have absolutely no issues with condi revs while also having far fewer condi cleanses than neccessary. Or you know, argue that condi bombs totally have tells. > > > > > > I don't have fewer than necessary clearly. > > > > > > > See the next part. > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" > > > > > > > > Oh, of course, I finally get it. You *play* condi rev. No wonder other condi revs or condi builds arent doing that much damage to you, youre using resistance and condi-transfers. And of course youre dismissive of Condi revs major damage advantage and general overpoweredness, overplay their weaknesses and underplay their strengths. You dont want it to be nerfed. I really dont know why I didnt catch it as soon as you said "5 conditions removed every 30 seconds". Yeah that basically puts everything into a new, highly questionable perspective. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't exactly try to hide it...? But ye that's the jalis clear. I thought you knew since before then even > > > > > > > Sometimes I give people the benefit of the doubt if I shouldnt. > > There's no benefit of the doubt to give here. > You trust yourself so little? Ugh, it cut off again. I hate when it does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Anyway that revenant is weak to CC isn't exactly something that's not well known, nor is their lack of mobility, this is true for both herald and rev/ren. > > > > > > > There are a lot of things that are "well known" that end up being wrong. Both of those are. Revenant is no more weak to CC than core Engineer, Thief, Reaper, etc. etc. Probably less even, due to being inherently tankier. As for mobility, their mobility is actually pretty good for chasing. Less good for running away, but even then permaswiftness is not something every class can claim for themselves. > > Tbh core engi isn't exactly "strong" atm, at least I haven't seen any that really impressed me, but if I did I would be willing to change my mind on it. But it def has access to better stunbreaks and stability than condi rev does. > It does well enough. And no, it really doesnt. It has a really good stunbreak (Elixir S), but its only one, and its on a *60* second cooldown. The Dragon stunbreak is a *25* second cooldown. And you can have 2, Engineer cant really afford to. As for stability, Throw Elixir B. Thats it. Thats the only one. If Im facing Condi, I cant even use that one. But its no comparision to Jalis. > I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). > > Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) > Theyre really not. Theyre actually probably the worst. They have no stability whatsoever (well, almost. If you steal on a mesmer as a non-DE, you can get stability. Otherwise, you cannot), and their stunbreaks both have *extremely* long cooldowns (50 seconds pretty much on all of them), and also additional functions you have to use them for sometimes (funny that you mention Shadowstep. Shadowstep is one of thieves very few good condi clears. Sometimes youre forced to burn it for that, and you cant even save it for stuns). And you usually cant even run 2. > Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). > It is impressive. Keep in mind, perma-swiftness is the main reason to play Daredevil on thief, and perma-swiftness is less relatively impressive on them as they have shortbow 5. And thief still mostly uses Daredevil right now. > Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. > You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. > Most Revs I see use Rapid Flow, actually. > The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. > > Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > Actually, with perma-swiftness and Rising Momentum (the only stacking movement speed buff in the game, making you faster than anyone effectively), you can catch up to anyone who is kiting, and all but 4 builds that are running away. > > > Also condi renegade/core condi =/= condi herald. > > > > > > Condi ren/rev runs Demon+Jalis meaning even less stunbreaks (but better stab) and no invulns. > > > > > > Condi herald I haven't ever tried defending, if you want someone to say "let's nerf infuse light and true nature - Demon" then that's me. > > > > > > In the ways of transfers I run with permeating, the other options are just really mediocre imo as 1 stack of 2 conditions that are easy to apply anyway is kinda pointless and the resistance one is just a worse anti-condi trait. > > > > > > So 6 clears on legend swap (1 cleansing channel +3 cleansing+2 transfer (if people are close). Most of it is still just cleansing+invo clear. > > > > > > About 10-15% resistance uptime. (2 sec duration, 5 sec cd, possible to use roughly half the time, obviously won't get used quite on CD). I "never" (close enough) use pain absoprtion because it's terrible in smallscale. > > > > > > So ye probably less clearing/resistance than you have I would have to imagine. > > > > While infuse light could use a hit ,theyre not the central issue, the condi part is. Specifically, how absurd the damage is. Though again, Id just make it so condi cleanses dont remove damaging conditions, change condi durations and stacks around, then nerf the damage to compensate. I think without condi clears it would need something like a 75% nerf? > > Hard to say really how much it would need to be nerfed by if you could no longer clear condis, definitively less than 75% though. But that is something I doubt anet would ever even consider doing so not gonna have a discussion about thing number. > Nah, its definitely not less than 75%. It actually might well be more, given that condi has to contend with Firebrands existence and is still dominant. > Either way a terrible suggestion, condi management is a core aspect of GW2 combat. > Core aspects can change. Especially if they bring nothing good to the table. All condis current state, and condi clears, do is make combat worse. Youre forced to pick a certain skilltype just to be able to fight them (while power has no equivalent skilltype), classes that have less access to said skilltype are just outright screwed, and said skilltype, and its inconsistent access, makes combat very binary. If you have enough that damage type is useless, if you dont its unbeatable. > There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. > Its precisely because they can be cleansed that its so binary. Thats the problem. Oh and if you had more control over what conditions you cleanse, that would break things further, making condi builds useless again, until they get powercrept and were back to the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. > > > > > > > > No. None of it actually is. > > > > > > > > Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. > > > > > > > > > > Of course he can. I mean hell, he can corrupt 4 times in a row just from pulsing AoE. Thats the whole purpose of the entire spec. > > > > Do you facetank well of corruption/ghastly breach? If so, don't. > > > > When it comes to AoEs, especially on a spec that likes to fear you, not being hit by pulsing AoEs is not something thats your choice. The fear is also telegraphed tho... Just don't stand in the scourge fields, the class is a joke. > > > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > > > > First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. > > > > We absolutely are in a condi meta, and there have been several. Condi is *far* more common than power right now. That would imply over 50% of all dmg builds primarily do condi dmg, that's not the case. > > Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. > > > > The point is that unless youre a support, like say Firebrand, or you go all-in on it to maximize your heals, like say Weaver, its just worse. Your HPS is always competing with your opponents DPS, increasing HPS is generally the best way to fight against condi as the dmg isnt particularly bursty. Your survival time is just HP / (Enemy DPS - Incoming HPS) Increasing HPS can be more effective than increasing HP, just like decreasing enemy dps can be the most effective method. Meaning that the longer the fight goes, the more effective healing power becomes compared to vitality. > > Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > > > > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > > > > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > > > > Herald is all about transfers. > > > > The sPvP build is all about resistance > > > > Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > > > > The WvW build is also all about resistance. Its the trademark of the bleeding legend. The bleed legend is kalla. Which doesn't have any resistance skills. Resistance is most commonly found on Mallyx, the torment legend. Mallyx has 3 sources of resistance in total. Pain Absorption, which is terrible for smallscale (30 energy!!) Demonic Defiance (2 sec resistance on demon stance skill, 5 sec cd, realistically 15% uptime, give or take) Spirit Boon (2 sec resistance on entering demon, 10% uptime if you swap on cooldown 100% of the time, which you of course don't so somwhere between 5-8%) > > > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > > > > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > > > > They're by far the most common build type. > > > > In Large Scale? Yes. In Small Scale? Far and away, no. In both power is more common. If this is due to balance, preference or cost I obviously don't know, but power is far more common in all situations. Which doesn't mean that it's stronger, it just means more common, irrelevant of how it performs compared to condi. > > > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > > > > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > > > > Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > > > > Thats when Decimate was used. Chilling was never really used. Yes it was, especially back when blighter's boon was the only option. > > > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > > > > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > > > > In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. > > > > The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > > > > Even if you reliably can get fury, it can reliably be stripped. Relying on boons is a fools errand currently. No it isn't. Also if the benefit while having fury is really big and the downside while not having fury is rather small.... > > > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > > > Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. > > > > Again, used to be that way, isnt anymore. Condi scourge got nuked this patch and it was bad pre-patch. > > But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. > > > > Mace 3 is not the main worry, but yes, it has a cooldown. And yes, but you only need those 50% (unless the opponent is also a condi build). > > > All of it is very well telegraphed. > > > > Except for the pulsing AoE, Invoke Torment, Call of the Demon, on-X traits, so on and so forth. Call is not telegraphed but doesn't do a whole lot. The pulsing AoE is heavily telegraphed Invoke torment is also telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > > > Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. > > > > Luck, good prediction or staring at the hotbar. The only 3 options. So one has to play well to avoid getting hit, shocker. > > You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. > > > > Im quite quick with mental calculations, and thats still asking too much from me. I dont imagine people who have less of an affinity have that as an option. I do it effortlessly with 1 enemy rev, as they get more it obviously becomes harder to keep track, it's really more of a mix between some very simply math and "feeling", having played the class helps immensely with this, like with any class, the best way to learn how to counter it is to play it some. But tbh even just counting to 10 is usually good enough > > Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > > > > Hah, no, not even remotely in the slightest. Most bursty power skills have bright telegraphs and cast times of over 0.75 seconds. Some even over a second. Compare Arcing Slice to Echoing Eruption. Echoing Eruption has a much much clearer tell. Most condi skills have a much bigger tell than arcing slice, which can crit for 7k+ even post-nerfs against full toughness gear builds. (no I am not advocating for a nerf to arcing slice, I am just trying to put it in perspective) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > > > > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > > > I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. > > > > My point was that condi as a whole is too strong. And that it doesnt at all need the free survivability it can get. Condi Rev in WvW decided to go hybrid because their survivability is great even without free stats, and their damage is absurd. Any condi+power stat combination is by definition a hybrid build, there's really quite few of them. Condi rev/ren (or herald for that matter) does not play hybrid in WvW, that's a great way of getting yourself killed. > > If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. > > > > The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > > > > The power stat on Carrion hardly increases the damage it does. Power Damage needs 3 stats after all. I was recently "forced" to play some amount of sPvP again recently, it was an awful experience btw. But I did play carrion/sage condi herald in it mostly. According to arcdps in most fights I did 25-40% power dmg (varying wildly from fight to fight), which is quite significant. This was playing Mace/Axe+Mace/Shield as I really am not a fan of sword on condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > > > So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > > > > That doesnt work. Youre not moving faster than a perma-swiftness Rev. Rangers mobility is great when it does things like Swoop, or activating lesser lightning Zephyr. You cant constantly swap between longbow and GS in-combat though. You gotta stick to one. And then it doesnt really work. Why would you "stick to one" weapon? That's just poor playing. That's like camping one element on elementalist. Ranger's weapon swap a lot in combat. Rangers can get perma swiftness in a lot of different ways most of the time by picking up already strong pets/traits/skills. Rev actually has to make sacrifices to get it. Ranger is a faster class, by a lot. Even before taking into consideration that they have stealth, a knockback, cripple and possibly soulbeast merge skills available to help them get away. > > > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > > > Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > > > > Fair enough. I hadnt paid attention to it because it wasnt in the patch notes. > > > > > > > > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also be your build just being weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > > > > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > > > > Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. > > > > You cant claim both this and say "Oh Im totally fine with just 4 clears". Thats just contradicting yoruself. Anyway, no, its not, because at least it has comparable damage, rather than a fraction of the damage. It is. I can just accept having bad matchups and in fights that arent just 1v1 it's really not a massive problem. (though condi herald has some extremely bs things, such as true nature - demon being unavoidable and massive). > > The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > > > > At least 40%. More if you have any concentration, which I believe that build would have. "At least 40%" The trait has 5 sec cd and 2 sec duration, that means in theory it can give 40%. In practice you'd struggle to break 35% even camping demon. GIven that you spend about 50% of the time on another legend, breaking 20% would be pretty hard. Condi rev most assuredly does not run any concentration (well it runs 3% boon duration from 45 to all stats food, but that's it). The sPvP build however runs Fiendish Tenacity, Spirit Boon and rune of resistance and actually has very high resistance uptime. But condi herald in WvW runs rune of tormenting and Permeating Pestilence (and quite often also Incensed Response) and has much lower resistance uptime. > > > > As an example > > > > > > > > Power Thief/mesmer has historically always hardcountered condi necro for example, not because those builds have a lot of clears (they don't really). > > > > > > > > Now shoring up your condi clears is generally the easiest way of improving your condi matchups but there's a lot more to it. > > > > > > > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > > > They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > > > > Uh, no, they did oneshot. Burst and reset doesnt work for thief, because then the Scourge turns around and either blasts the thief for a bunch of condis (which the thief struggles to get rid of and most likely dies to), or if its a power build does Ghastly Claws or Reaper Shroud stuff. For Mesmer, resetting wasnt really much of an option. Too long of a cooldown on any way to reset. No, the thief does CC+Burst then uses a mobility skill to get away before the necro can fight back. Then repeats the proccess until the necro dies. > > > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > > > > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > > > No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > > > > And yet the builds and their usage are nearly identical. As I said, the only difference I could see was SA rifle, and SA rifle isnt really a thing either. Nope. > > > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > > > > > Nor does the most powerful condi options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This part is true. > > > > > > > > > > > The most powerful power options also don't exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use. > > > > > > > > Except > > > > cleansing > > > > Energy > > > > Hydromancy > > > > Etc > > > > > > > > > > ... you do know that we have the first 2, right? We dont have hydromancy, but that one is relatively narrow. > > > > Energy in sPvP is 25% instead of 50% > > Cleansing is 1 condi instead of 3. > > > > > > > > There is barely any sigils that are shared > > > > > > > > Also marauder etc are nerfed in sPvP > > > > > > > > > > If you mean that the base stats are lower, yes. *All* stats are lower. Their relative power compared to condi is however *higher*. > > > > Nah marauder gives the same amount of stats as berserker, 3000, in WvW marauder gives more stats than berserker. > > > > Still true for all stats, not just the power ones. Sides, it didnt stop Marauders from being the best option. See not even comparable. > > > > > > It's a completely different balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant. > > > > > > > > Judge is 1 stack of burn > > > > Zealot flame has a tell, the bursty part is the thrown torch. > > > > Radiant for is the same > > > > Virtue of Justice is on other attacks, so has as much tell as any other skill. > > > > > > > > > > Whoever said they throw it. Throwing it does add damage, but were not throwing for the instant burst combo, the enemy wont survive long enough. Virtue is triggered by Judges intervention, so it has no tell. Thanks for confirming what we know. > > > > Throwing is where the burst of zealot's flame is from, the biggest burst you can do that's untelegraphed on burn guard is. > > > > The burst is from stacking a bunch of different burn procs all at once. Zealot's Fire would be nice, but it makes it telegraphed. And telegraphed means reactable. Without SoJ or Zealot's Flame or Purging Flames. Condi guard has no burst. EDIT: Got cut off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Thats not instant. It lets the opponent react if they see you. You can do it fairly close to instant, like guard hammer 2+Judge basically > > I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib > > > > It is why, and it does (nearly) instagib. The first tick does up to 80% of their health, and the next tick kills them if they dont instantly cleanse (And you just burn em again if they do). They do too many burn stacks with some skills (notably scepter 4 and SoJ), but judge intervention combos are rare and easy to counter. > > SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered > > The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > > > > Eh, SoJ is good in large scale, but much worse in small scale as its too small of a radius. SoJ is the best skill on burn guard by a large margin, it's where most of their burst comes from > > > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > > > Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > > > Hardly. Its not great in large scale because firebrands, but in small scale skirmishes its pretty great. It's bad in all fights Outside of ghastly breach it does very little It's squishy, lacks meaningful group support, the circles are small and delayed, the dmg output is very low. > You trust yourself so little? I don't trust myself at all, but that's not the point I was making. > Ugh, it cut off again. I hate when it does that. Yes... Same happened to me > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > It does well enough. And no, it really doesnt. It has a really good stunbreak (Elixir S), but its only one, and its on a *60* second cooldown. The Dragon stunbreak is a *25* second cooldown. And you can have 2, Engineer cant really afford to. As for stability, Throw Elixir B. Thats it. Thats the only one. If Im facing Condi, I cant even use that one. But its no comparision to Jalis. Elixir U is a 32 sec (40 sec without HGH) cd stunbreak that gives stability. A large amount of good engi skills has stunbreaks attached to them (elixir gun, slick shoes, thumper turret etc) Far more than necro or rev has. > > I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). > > > > Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) > > > > Theyre really not. Theyre actually probably the worst. They have no stability whatsoever (well, almost. If you steal on a mesmer as a non-DE, you can get stability. Otherwise, you cannot), and their stunbreaks both have *extremely* long cooldowns (50 seconds pretty much on all of them), and also additional functions you have to use them for sometimes (funny that you mention Shadowstep. Shadowstep is one of thieves very few good condi clears. Sometimes youre forced to burn it for that, and you cant even save it for stuns). And you usually cant even run 2. Being 1500 range away is much better than stab Stealth is also better than stab Avoids are also better than stab Also blinding powder does give a little stab tbf > > Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). > > > > It is impressive. Keep in mind, perma-swiftness is the main reason to play Daredevil on thief, and perma-swiftness is less relatively impressive on them as they have shortbow 5. And thief still mostly uses Daredevil right now. Acrobatics can do the same thing Trickery can by itself give high swiftness uptime Daredevil is mostly taken for Endurance management, Staff, Clearing, General Tankiness or it's synergy with D/P > > Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. > > You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. > > > > Most Revs I see use Rapid Flow, actually. You give up 2 fantastic traits for it, it's generally not used. Spirit Boon gives all the best boons (Resistance/Prot/Stab depending on if you run Glint or Jalis) Incensed Response gives a ton of might. 5 stacks everytime you legend swap or CC an enemy. > > The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. > > > > Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > > > > Actually, with perma-swiftness and Rising Momentum (the only stacking movement speed buff in the game, making you faster than anyone effectively), you can catch up to anyone who is kiting, and all but 4 builds that are running away. In my admittedly limited test of Rising Momentum it did not stack with swiftness, wiki also says it doesn't. If you have any video showing it stacking I would be very interested. Also Rising Momentum is generally not picked on Condi Herald over Core Value. > Core aspects can change. Especially if they bring nothing good to the table. All condis current state, and condi clears, do is make combat worse. Youre forced to pick a certain skilltype just to be able to fight them (while power has no equivalent skilltype), classes that have less access to said skilltype are just outright screwed, and said skilltype, and its inconsistent access, makes combat very binary. If you have enough that damage type is useless, if you dont its unbeatable. Post is already long enough, suffice to say I disagree with this, but it's very hypothetical and some parts have to be sacrificed. > > There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. > > > > Its precisely because they can be cleansed that its so binary. Thats the problem. Oh and if you had more control over what conditions you cleanse, that would break things further, making condi builds useless again, until they get powercrept and were back to the status quo. Making clears either prioritize or only clear a certain categories of condis would actually help a lot. Heal skills would generally only clear damaging ones Movement skills/breaks would generally only clear debilitating ones General clear skills (like elixir C or "Shake it off") could either clear a 50/50 split, or just work like they do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problematic =/= good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats ... still missing the point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did you say it then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge has barrier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true. > > > > > > > > > > No. None of it actually is. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge can't corrupt 4 times in a row rapidly unless the enemy is afk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course he can. I mean hell, he can corrupt 4 times in a row just from pulsing AoE. Thats the whole purpose of the entire spec. > > > > > > Do you facetank well of corruption/ghastly breach? If so, don't. > > > > > > > When it comes to AoEs, especially on a spec that likes to fear you, not being hit by pulsing AoEs is not something thats your choice. > > The fear is also telegraphed tho... > > Just don't stand in the scourge fields, the class is a joke. > Far as I know, Garish Pillar has no telegraph. It also strikes around the scourge, so not standing near a sand shade isnt sufficient. > > > > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > > > > > > First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. > > > > > > > We absolutely are in a condi meta, and there have been several. Condi is *far* more common than power right now. > > That would imply over 50% of all dmg builds primarily do condi dmg, that's not the case. > I mean, for one that is in fact true, but no. It just means that the majority of players are on condi builds. Which they are. > > > Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. > > > > > > > The point is that unless youre a support, like say Firebrand, or you go all-in on it to maximize your heals, like say Weaver, its just worse. > > Your HPS is always competing with your opponents DPS, increasing HPS is generally the best way to fight against condi as the dmg isnt particularly bursty. > > Your survival time is just > > HP / (Enemy DPS - Incoming HPS) > > Increasing HPS can be more effective than increasing HP, just like decreasing enemy dps can be the most effective method. > > Meaning that the longer the fight goes, the more effective healing power becomes compared to vitality. > Only if you can survive long enough. And only if you dont keep hitting your vitality cap in parts of the fight. Both of those tend to be a strike *against* healing power. And no, HPS isnt generally the best way to fight against condi (its clears -> HP ->>>> Heals), as the damage is in fact *very* bursty, and also tends to mess with your healing since so many of them have poison, if not as a main damage condition, then as a cover one. > > > Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > > > > > > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > > > > > > Herald is all about transfers. > > > > > > The sPvP build is all about resistance > > > > > > Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > > > > > > > The WvW build is also all about resistance. Its the trademark of the bleeding legend. > > The bleed legend is kalla. Which doesn't have any resistance skills. > Bleeding in this case is not literal. Its a replacement for an expletive. > Resistance is most commonly found on Mallyx, the torment legend. > > Mallyx has 3 sources of resistance in total. > Pain Absorption, which is terrible for smallscale (30 energy!!) > Demonic Defiance (2 sec resistance on demon stance skill, 5 sec cd, realistically 15% uptime, give or take) > Spirit Boon (2 sec resistance on entering demon, 10% uptime if you swap on cooldown 100% of the time, which you of course don't so somwhere between 5-8%) > Pain Absorption is fine, its a stunbreak and a lot of resistance if you need it. Demonic Defiance is 40+% uptime, especially thanks to the fact that the build gets some extra concentration. I dont know why you do such a bad attempt at underselling your class, everyone knows its busted. Ya aint fooling noone. > > > > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > > > > > > They're by far the most common build type. > > > > > > > In Large Scale? Yes. In Small Scale? Far and away, no. > > In both power is more common. > Again, accross several hours daily, several weeks in a row, I can tell you Condition damage in small scale is *far* more common. Its about an 80-20 split in its favour. > If this is due to balance, preference or cost I obviously don't know, but power is far more common in all situations. Which doesn't mean that it's stronger, it just means more common, irrelevant of how it performs compared to condi. > Its far less common in small scale. *Far* less common. > > > > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > > > > > > Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > > > > > > > Thats when Decimate was used. Chilling was never really used. > > Yes it was, especially back when blighter's boon was the only option. > > > > > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > > > > > > In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. > > > > > > The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > > > > > > > Even if you reliably can get fury, it can reliably be stripped. Relying on boons is a fools errand currently. > > No it isn't. > > Also if the benefit while having fury is really big and the downside while not having fury is rather small.... > Yeah it is. Thats why they run full Marauders instead of leaving things up to chance. > > > > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > > > > > Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. > > > > > > > Again, used to be that way, isnt anymore. > > Condi scourge got nuked this patch and it was bad pre-patch. > > > > But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. > > > > > > > Mace 3 is not the main worry, but yes, it has a cooldown. And yes, but you only need those 50% (unless the opponent is also a condi build). > > > > > All of it is very well telegraphed. > > > > > > > Except for the pulsing AoE, Invoke Torment, Call of the Demon, on-X traits, so on and so forth. > > Call is not telegraphed but doesn't do a whole lot. > Its one of many things. > The pulsing AoE is heavily telegraphed > Technically yes, but you cant dodge every pulse (for that matter timing the pulses is a pain because the animation doesnt line up at all). > Invoke torment is also telegraphed. > Weve been over this. You get the telegraph *After* youre already hit. Its not telegraphed at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > > > > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > > > > > Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. > > > > > > > Luck, good prediction or staring at the hotbar. The only 3 options. > > So one has to play well to avoid getting hit, shocker. > > > > You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. > > > > > > > Im quite quick with mental calculations, and thats still asking too much from me. I dont imagine people who have less of an affinity have that as an option. > > I do it effortlessly with 1 enemy rev, as they get more it obviously becomes harder to keep track, it's really more of a mix between some very simply math and "feeling", having played the class helps immensely with this, like with any class, the best way to learn how to counter it is to play it some. > > But tbh even just counting to 10 is usually good enough > I mean if you mean the Rev is bad enough to be so predictable, sure. But I dont face bad Condi Revs, I face good ones. > > > Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > > > > > > > Hah, no, not even remotely in the slightest. Most bursty power skills have bright telegraphs and cast times of over 0.75 seconds. Some even over a second. > > Compare Arcing Slice to Echoing Eruption. > > Echoing Eruption has a much much clearer tell. Most condi skills have a much bigger tell than arcing slice, which can crit for 7k+ even post-nerfs against full toughness gear builds. (no I am not advocating for a nerf to arcing slice, I am just trying to put it in perspective) > Of course, if you take the most telegraphed (which is highly unusual for its kind) condi skill and compare it to one of the least telegraphed, you get that kinda result. Though even then Arcing Slice has a telegraph. Most condi skills have *no* tell *whatsoever*, some have a *much smaller* tell than Arcing slice, *very few* have a bigger tell than arcing slice. Also actually Arcing Slice has a pretty big tell nowadays, they added VFX to it at some point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > > > > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > > > > > I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. > > > > > > > My point was that condi as a whole is too strong. And that it doesnt at all need the free survivability it can get. Condi Rev in WvW decided to go hybrid because their survivability is great even without free stats, and their damage is absurd. > > Any condi+power stat combination is by definition a hybrid build, there's really quite few of them. > By that logic pure condi doesnt exist in PvP because there isnt anything but condi + power or power adjacent stats. Thats obviously nonsense. Hybrid means it leans heavily into both damage types. Carrion Rev in PvP does not. If it had access to Dire, it would play Dire. > Condi rev/ren (or herald for that matter) does not play hybrid in WvW, that's a great way of getting yourself killed. > Except it does. Its done for a while. > > > If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. > > > > > > The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > > > > > > > The power stat on Carrion hardly increases the damage it does. Power Damage needs 3 stats after all. > > I was recently "forced" to play some amount of sPvP again recently, it was an awful experience btw. > > But I did play carrion/sage condi herald in it mostly. > > According to arcdps in most fights I did 25-40% power dmg (varying wildly from fight to fight), which is quite significant. This was playing Mace/Axe+Mace/Shield as I really am not a fan of sword on condi rev. > Unless you were fighting Firebrands who just completely shut down your condi damage entirely (not implausible), in which case you just fought in the wrong place at the wrong time, this is probably ArcDPS messing up the damage count again. And hey, I get it, Condi Rev isnt quite as broken in sPvP as WvW (still broken). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > > > > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > > > > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > > > > > So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > > > > > > > That doesnt work. Youre not moving faster than a perma-swiftness Rev. Rangers mobility is great when it does things like Swoop, or activating lesser lightning Zephyr. You cant constantly swap between longbow and GS in-combat though. You gotta stick to one. And then it doesnt really work. > > Why would you "stick to one" weapon? That's just poor playing. That's like camping one element on elementalist. Ranger's weapon swap a lot in combat. > Sure. Good luck kiting with a bleeding Greatsword. > Rangers can get perma swiftness in a lot of different ways most of the time by picking up already strong pets/traits/skills. Rev actually has to make sacrifices to get it. > They cant. There isnt anything to add here, they just cant get perma swiftness. Hell, they struggle to have any kind of significant swiftness uptime. To the point that some people unironically run Rune of the Speed. On the other hand, Rev just has to play Herald (which is the best version) and press a single button that they always have on their bar. Thats not at a sacrifice at all. > Ranger is a faster class, by a lot. Even before taking into consideration that they have stealth, a knockback, cripple and possibly soulbeast merge skills available to help them get away. > When using Swoop and other dashes to move, yes. If theyre on Longbow? No. Theyre significantly slower, they dont even have perma-swiftness, let alone Revenants perma-swiftness + Rising Momentum. And thats not even involving Chill. And yes, they have a knockback. If that lands, they can kite. If it does not, they cannot. Im pretty sure I said that. > > > > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > > > > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > > > > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > > > > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > > > > > Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > > > > > > > Fair enough. I hadnt paid attention to it because it wasnt in the patch notes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > > > > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > > > > > > Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. > > > > > > > You cant claim both this and say "Oh Im totally fine with just 4 clears". Thats just contradicting yoruself. Anyway, no, its not, because at least it has comparable damage, rather than a fraction of the damage. > > It is. I can just accept having bad matchups and in fights that arent just 1v1 it's really not a massive problem. (though condi herald has some extremely bs things, such as true nature - demon being unavoidable and massive). > But if its a bad matchup, and its a common matchup (as it should be, its the best class), then you should be taking almost entirely condi damage. Yet you claimed you take far more power damage. > > > The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > > > > > > > At least 40%. More if you have any concentration, which I believe that build would have. > > "At least 40%" > > The trait has 5 sec cd and 2 sec duration, that means in theory it can give 40%. In practice you'd struggle to break 35% even camping demon. > Concentration, it increases boon duration, and you get it for free. > GIven that you spend about 50% of the time on another legend, breaking 20% would be pretty hard. Condi rev most assuredly does not run any concentration (well it runs 3% boon duration from 45 to all stats food, but that's it). > You spend much less than 50% on the other legend. You start on it for boons, then swap to Demon, and stay in demon until the enemy dies (which is usually before the cooldown is even up). Also, Reinforced Potency. > The sPvP build however runs Fiendish Tenacity, Spirit Boon and rune of resistance and actually has very high resistance uptime. But condi herald in WvW runs rune of tormenting and Permeating Pestilence (and quite often also Incensed Response) and has much lower resistance uptime. > The sPvP version does also run a lot of resistance, yeah. > > > > > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > > > > > They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > > > > > > > Uh, no, they did oneshot. Burst and reset doesnt work for thief, because then the Scourge turns around and either blasts the thief for a bunch of condis (which the thief struggles to get rid of and most likely dies to), or if its a power build does Ghastly Claws or Reaper Shroud stuff. For Mesmer, resetting wasnt really much of an option. Too long of a cooldown on any way to reset. > > No, the thief does CC+Burst then uses a mobility skill to get away before the necro can fight back. Then repeats the proccess until the necro dies. > Ah yes, the thief uses CC and then bursts. Now, uh, just remind me. What CC is the thief using exactly? I checked, and the only one it has is Daze, on a 20 second cooldown (Swipe). Its also just Daze. As for mobility, thats also pretty limited. In fact, given that this means that the thief has 20 seconds between burst attempts (10 seconds to swap back to D/P, another 10 seconds to be able to swap back to Shortbow. Also, the Daze cooldown). The Necro can legit just walk away in 20 seconds. That process simply put doesnt work. It also doesnt work because the Necro can fight back faster, especially if throwing CC himself, but I digress. > > > > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > > > > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > > > > > No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > > > > > > > And yet the builds and their usage are nearly identical. As I said, the only difference I could see was SA rifle, and SA rifle isnt really a thing either. > > Nope. > Go ahead then, find a major difference in the builds and their usage. > > > > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > > Ugh, cut off. Marauders is also the best power stat in WvW. See, pretty comparable. I already explained the burn guard combo. Hell, the ones you mention are too slow for burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > > Mesmer torch skills are instant. > Correct. Out of the 100% things you two disagree with in this increasingly pointless qoute fest, I wonder how both can agree yet be wrong at the same time. Torch 4 is clearly telegraphed (count to 3 and dodge) and torch 5 takes almost a second to cast, with a phantasm taking almost another second to cast his attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Thats not instant. It lets the opponent react if they see you. > > You can do it fairly close to instant, like guard hammer 2+Judge basically > 0.75 isnt instant. Its kinda slow actually. > > > I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib > > > > > > > It is why, and it does (nearly) instagib. The first tick does up to 80% of their health, and the next tick kills them if they dont instantly cleanse (And you just burn em again if they do). > > They do too many burn stacks with some skills (notably scepter 4 and SoJ), but judge intervention combos are rare and easy to counter. > Theyre common, and the only way to "counter" them is to hope you survive the first tick you cant stop. > > > SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered > > > The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > > > > > > > Eh, SoJ is good in large scale, but much worse in small scale as its too small of a radius. > > SoJ is the best skill on burn guard by a large margin, it's where most of their burst comes from > Its far too slow to be "burst", and its also too easily avoided. > > > > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > > > > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > > > > > Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > > > > > Hardly. Its not great in large scale because firebrands, but in small scale skirmishes its pretty great. > > It's bad in all fights > > Outside of ghastly breach it does very little > > It's squishy, lacks meaningful group support, the circles are small and delayed, the dmg output is very low. > > > You trust yourself so little? > > I don't trust myself at all, but that's not the point I was making. > > > Ugh, it cut off again. I hate when it does that. > > Yes... Same happened to me > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > It does well enough. And no, it really doesnt. It has a really good stunbreak (Elixir S), but its only one, and its on a *60* second cooldown. The Dragon stunbreak is a *25* second cooldown. And you can have 2, Engineer cant really afford to. As for stability, Throw Elixir B. Thats it. Thats the only one. If Im facing Condi, I cant even use that one. But its no comparision to Jalis. > > Elixir U is a 32 sec (40 sec without HGH) cd stunbreak that gives stability. A large amount of good engi skills has stunbreaks attached to them (elixir gun, slick shoes, thumper turret etc) > There is a reason people done use these. Elixir U gives stability, but for only *1* second, so its only useful against people who just throw CC at an already CCd target (i.e. bad players). The others are just, not good anymore. > Far more than necro or rev has. > Engineer has a decent selection, but here is the problem. One of your slots is for a weapon kit, or Photonic Barrier/Hard Light Arena if youre Holo. One is for stuff like Elixir B or C. You only get to run 1 stunbreak. On most builds, anyway. > > > I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). > > > > > > Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) > > > > > > > Theyre really not. Theyre actually probably the worst. They have no stability whatsoever (well, almost. If you steal on a mesmer as a non-DE, you can get stability. Otherwise, you cannot), and their stunbreaks both have *extremely* long cooldowns (50 seconds pretty much on all of them), and also additional functions you have to use them for sometimes (funny that you mention Shadowstep. Shadowstep is one of thieves very few good condi clears. Sometimes youre forced to burn it for that, and you cant even save it for stuns). And you usually cant even run 2. > > Being 1500 range away is much better than stab > 1200 range, actually. Its also one of your 2 only good anti-condi options. Having to choose between those 2 is bad. But yeah, its a good one. Long cooldown though. > Stealth is also better than stab > Its a *lot* worse actually. Blinding Powder usually stealths in melee, which is basically just "free damage for your opponent" as they still know roughly where you are, and can hit you with AoE and cleave. > Avoids are also better than stab > For avoiding future CC? No, actually. Evades dont last long enough for that. > Also blinding powder does give a little stab tbf > 1 second, only good against bad players, see above. > > > Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). > > > > > > > It is impressive. Keep in mind, perma-swiftness is the main reason to play Daredevil on thief, and perma-swiftness is less relatively impressive on them as they have shortbow 5. And thief still mostly uses Daredevil right now. > > Acrobatics can do the same thing > Trickery can by itself give high swiftness uptime > It cant actually. Not now that Acrobatics was nerfed to hell. Thats why even S/D dropped Acrobatics for Trickery. > Daredevil is mostly taken for Endurance management, Staff, Clearing, General Tankiness or it's synergy with D/P > Uh, it gives you practically no endurance management, Staff isnt viable, noone uses Escapist's fortitude anymore, the tankiness *is* a nice side benefit, and it has abolutely *no* synergy with D/P. No its pretty much only taken for Dash. > > > Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. > > > You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. > > > > > > > Most Revs I see use Rapid Flow, actually. > > You give up 2 fantastic traits for it, it's generally not used. > > Spirit Boon gives all the best boons (Resistance/Prot/Stab depending on if you run Glint or Jalis) > > Incensed Response gives a ton of might. 5 stacks everytime you legend swap or CC an enemy. > I can only tell you that a lot of the revs Im facing are clearly running it. > > > The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. > > > > > > Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > > > > > > > Actually, with perma-swiftness and Rising Momentum (the only stacking movement speed buff in the game, making you faster than anyone effectively), you can catch up to anyone who is kiting, and all but 4 builds that are running away. > > In my admittedly limited test of Rising Momentum it did not stack with swiftness, wiki also says it doesn't. If you have any video showing it stacking I would be very interested. > > Also Rising Momentum is generally not picked on Condi Herald over Core Value. > Im basing that on the patch notes from when it was introduced, and I know it used to work. Maybe its bugged? > > Core aspects can change. Especially if they bring nothing good to the table. All condis current state, and condi clears, do is make combat worse. Youre forced to pick a certain skilltype just to be able to fight them (while power has no equivalent skilltype), classes that have less access to said skilltype are just outright screwed, and said skilltype, and its inconsistent access, makes combat very binary. If you have enough that damage type is useless, if you dont its unbeatable. > > Post is already long enough, suffice to say I disagree with this, but it's very hypothetical and some parts have to be sacrificed. > > > > There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. > > > > > > > Its precisely because they can be cleansed that its so binary. Thats the problem. Oh and if you had more control over what conditions you cleanse, that would break things further, making condi builds useless again, until they get powercrept and were back to the status quo. > > Making clears either prioritize or only clear a certain categories of condis would actually help a lot. > > Heal skills would generally only clear damaging ones > > Movement skills/breaks would generally only clear debilitating ones > > General clear skills (like elixir C or "Shake it off") could either clear a 50/50 split, or just work like they do now. That would preserve the problem of it being exceptionally binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Thats not instant. It lets the opponent react if they see you. > > > > You can do it fairly close to instant, like guard hammer 2+Judge basically > > > > 0.75 isnt instant. Its kinda slow actually. It's instant for the target. You judge intervention mid cast obviously. > > > > I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib > > > > > > > > > > It is why, and it does (nearly) instagib. The first tick does up to 80% of their health, and the next tick kills them if they dont instantly cleanse (And you just burn em again if they do). > > > > They do too many burn stacks with some skills (notably scepter 4 and SoJ), but judge intervention combos are rare and easy to counter. > > > > Theyre common, and the only way to "counter" them is to hope you survive the first tick you cant stop. I haven't had anyone judges intervention me in ages > > > > SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered > > > > The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > > > > > > > > > > Eh, SoJ is good in large scale, but much worse in small scale as its too small of a radius. > > > > SoJ is the best skill on burn guard by a large margin, it's where most of their burst comes from > > > > Its far too slow to be "burst", and its also too easily avoided. Eh the immob+SoJ is their relevant best, judge +some procs can just be shrugged off > > > > > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > > > > > > > Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > > > > > > > Hardly. Its not great in large scale because firebrands, but in small scale skirmishes its pretty great. > > > > It's bad in all fights > > > > Outside of ghastly breach it does very little > > > > It's squishy, lacks meaningful group support, the circles are small and delayed, the dmg output is very low. > > > > > You trust yourself so little? > > > > I don't trust myself at all, but that's not the point I was making. > > > > > Ugh, it cut off again. I hate when it does that. > > > > Yes... Same happened to me > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > It does well enough. And no, it really doesnt. It has a really good stunbreak (Elixir S), but its only one, and its on a *60* second cooldown. The Dragon stunbreak is a *25* second cooldown. And you can have 2, Engineer cant really afford to. As for stability, Throw Elixir B. Thats it. Thats the only one. If Im facing Condi, I cant even use that one. But its no comparision to Jalis. > > > > Elixir U is a 32 sec (40 sec without HGH) cd stunbreak that gives stability. A large amount of good engi skills has stunbreaks attached to them (elixir gun, slick shoes, thumper turret etc) > > > > There is a reason people done use these. Elixir U gives stability, but for only *1* second, so its only useful against people who just throw CC at an already CCd target (i.e. bad players). The others are just, not good anymore. Please please read your skills before posting It gives 1 sec in sPvP It gives 6 sec by default in WvW > > Far more than necro or rev has. > > > > Engineer has a decent selection, but here is the problem. One of your slots is for a weapon kit, or Photonic Barrier/Hard Light Arena if youre Holo. One is for stuff like Elixir B or C. You only get to run 1 stunbreak. On most builds, anyway. Elixir B/C aren't exactly similar skills... One good stunbreak is one more than Rev has tbh > > > > I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). > > > > > > > > Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) > > > > > > > > > > Theyre really not. Theyre actually probably the worst. They have no stability whatsoever (well, almost. If you steal on a mesmer as a non-DE, you can get stability. Otherwise, you cannot), and their stunbreaks both have *extremely* long cooldowns (50 seconds pretty much on all of them), and also additional functions you have to use them for sometimes (funny that you mention Shadowstep. Shadowstep is one of thieves very few good condi clears. Sometimes youre forced to burn it for that, and you cant even save it for stuns). And you usually cant even run 2. > > > > Being 1500 range away is much better than stab > > > > 1200 range, actually. Its also one of your 2 only good anti-condi options. Having to choose between those 2 is bad. But yeah, its a good one. Long cooldown though. The skill has 1200, assuming you're not inside your enemy and start moving instantly your roughly 1500 away, the exact number doesn't really matter. The point is you're too far away to be cced. > > Stealth is also better than stab > > > > Its a *lot* worse actually. Blinding Powder usually stealths in melee, which is basically just "free damage for your opponent" as they still know roughly where you are, and can hit you with AoE and cleave. You can pick when you use your skills... > > Avoids are also better than stab > > > > For avoiding future CC? No, actually. Evades dont last long enough for that. Channing them and combining them with movement skills is absolutely the best way to avoid CC > > Also blinding powder does give a little stab tbf > > > > 1 second, only good against bad players, see above. > > > > Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). > > > > > > > > > > It is impressive. Keep in mind, perma-swiftness is the main reason to play Daredevil on thief, and perma-swiftness is less relatively impressive on them as they have shortbow 5. And thief still mostly uses Daredevil right now. > > > > Acrobatics can do the same thing > > Trickery can by itself give high swiftness uptime > > > > It cant actually. Not now that Acrobatics was nerfed to hell. Thats why even S/D dropped Acrobatics for Trickery. It has swiftness on dodge. Also not continuing this, way too off topic. > > Daredevil is mostly taken for Endurance management, Staff, Clearing, General Tankiness or it's synergy with D/P > > > > Uh, it gives you practically no endurance management, Staff isnt viable, noone uses Escapist's fortitude anymore, the tankiness *is* a nice side benefit, and it has abolutely *no* synergy with D/P. No its pretty much only taken for Dash. This has gone too far off topic. > > > > Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. > > > > You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > Most Revs I see use Rapid Flow, actually. > > > > You give up 2 fantastic traits for it, it's generally not used. > > > > Spirit Boon gives all the best boons (Resistance/Prot/Stab depending on if you run Glint or Jalis) > > > > Incensed Response gives a ton of might. 5 stacks everytime you legend swap or CC an enemy. > > > > I can only tell you that a lot of the revs Im facing are clearly running it. Their loss > > > > The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. > > > > > > > > Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > > > > > > > > > > Actually, with perma-swiftness and Rising Momentum (the only stacking movement speed buff in the game, making you faster than anyone effectively), you can catch up to anyone who is kiting, and all but 4 builds that are running away. > > > > In my admittedly limited test of Rising Momentum it did not stack with swiftness, wiki also says it doesn't. If you have any video showing it stacking I would be very interested. > > > > Also Rising Momentum is generally not picked on Condi Herald over Core Value. > > > > Im basing that on the patch notes from when it was introduced, and I know it used to work. Maybe its bugged? Who knows, but a statement like that should be based on more than a very old patch note. > > > Core aspects can change. Especially if they bring nothing good to the table. All condis current state, and condi clears, do is make combat worse. Youre forced to pick a certain skilltype just to be able to fight them (while power has no equivalent skilltype), classes that have less access to said skilltype are just outright screwed, and said skilltype, and its inconsistent access, makes combat very binary. If you have enough that damage type is useless, if you dont its unbeatable. > > > > Post is already long enough, suffice to say I disagree with this, but it's very hypothetical and some parts have to be sacrificed. > > > > > > There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. > > > > > > > > > > Its precisely because they can be cleansed that its so binary. Thats the problem. Oh and if you had more control over what conditions you cleanse, that would break things further, making condi builds useless again, until they get powercrept and were back to the status quo. > > > > Making clears either prioritize or only clear a certain categories of condis would actually help a lot. > > > > Heal skills would generally only clear damaging ones > > > > Movement skills/breaks would generally only clear debilitating ones > > > > General clear skills (like elixir C or "Shake it off") could either clear a 50/50 split, or just work like they do now. > > That would preserve the problem of it being exceptionally binary. Well it would alleviate a lot of other problems without redesigning the game into a much less interesting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now