Sigmoid.7082

I'm glad the Op came out and admitted to being selfish since they just don't want to get leg gear instead of the current trend of "steam users will quit unless they can change stats on their gear whenever they want"

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

> > > >

> > > > So if a person can't carry is the same as another one afking. Being incompetent is the same as "not carrying". The wonderful things you read on video game forums.

> > >

> > > more amazing is saying that someone with bad dps is afk.

> > > or dying for being bad and trying to search for an excuse

> >

> > Your exact words:

> > > if you can't kill **without him** that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

> > That includes being afk doesn't it?

> > And besides a player that does let's say 1k-2k damage is the same as being afk, as in not making any difference to the fight. Wasn't that your point anyway, talking about "carrying"? That some players aren't contributing anything to the team, being leeches, and you put them in the same position as players actively playing and trying their best, but maybe their best still isn't enough to beat the boss with a 1-man handicap.

>

> without him i mean he is dead, now if he is not dead and he is doing low damage, but you still can't kill you are bad as him because you would not need him if you could carry like you guys keep saying.

>

> now if everyone died and he is still alive, he is more skilled and better than everyone on the party, deal with that.

So if I can't carry someone who is contributing nothing then I am as bad as them because if I was good then I could cover the contribution? What kind of terrible logic is that...

Same with if I build completely selfishly, contribute nothing but work on my own personal survival, which could coincidentally be the reason we fail, then I am better than everyone...

Terrible , terrible logic. Both scenarios you've posted just completely forgo almost all of the point of working as a team.

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> When the game was being launched the selling point was "play how you want". Do you know why Guild Wars 2 has a soft trinity rather than a hard one? It was by design, so that no one would ever have to wait for a certain class, for a specific party composition. Inevitably, content was introduced which made liars of the developers.

> Do you know what is not fun? Having to play a class, a play style and a build I hate because that is what people currently want in their party - and I am not even talking about Raids. I am talking about the single boss strikes.

> Introducing yet another way to shove players in to a tiny box of "play how I want and need you to play" is not going to make better players and will likely further wittle down any build or play style diversity between patch days.

>

> Do you know what would improve the game? Including tutorials that give a real understanding of simple game mechanics like dodging and CC, skill synergy, and build synergy. Guild Wars 1 Fractions had this. Create better players by empowering them , not by threatening them with party kicks because they don't want to play with the precision you expect.

Despite the misconstrued understanding of "play how you want" it doesn't mean play with who you want.

Those other players are playing how they want. Why is that a problem? Or is this another "play how you want as long as it's my way and I am included". If we have 4 people who are like minded and 1 who isn't...then the one get kicked since they didn't fit the group or didn't align with how the group wanted to play..you know their own way..how are the 4 the problem? Just as you say they shouldn't have a right to pigeon hole you and tell you how to play you have the exact same zero right to do that to them and say they shouldn't play their way.

"But you don't need too to complete the content". Completely irrelevant. If they want to play a certain way, again, who are you to tell them otherwise.

" But I can't get a party and they are keeping me from the content " . Not at all start your own party or join parties that share you mind instead of demonising and chastising those that don't fit how you think they should be playing. The exact issue you're accusing them of doing to you.

It's also incredibly heavy handed to call the devs liars because some content requires organisation. Hard content where you needed to be better organised was always a design of the game. Dungeons, their original vision of this, just didn't actually hit where they wanted it to.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> no they also need to ban any 3party dps meter, any content in the game can be finished and completed without these rotations, people forcing them should be banned too for being toxic to others.

>

> the game is not a dps check

> people forcing dps check on pugs should be banned.

> if you want dps and speed run you can make your static party.

>

> this game turned into a madhouse with these dps meters and kp things, they aren't even logic, this is getting out of control, at least anet is doing something and changed KP things, next step will be banning dps meters

On one hand you say ban people who tell others what to do, you can complete stuff without anything, play how you want. And in the very same breath say ban people who are doing just that because you don't like how they play and they should follow your rules ?

Based on what you say and who should be banned, casual players who keep joining hard core groups and trying to force being carried or their caudal agenda also fit the ban criteria since they would also class as being toxic. This doesn't fit the narrative you want to push though.

On one hand you acknowledge that you can start your own groups by telling people to "form your own static" yet I am almost certain I've seen you saying "just starting your own group isn't a solution"

Your entire standpoint is incredibly hypocritical.

You condemn people with "play how you want as long as it's my way." Calling them toxic but then propose the exact same thing...your literally pushing "play how you want as long as it's my way, play with who you want as long as I am included. If you don't you should be banned"

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

>

> Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

Again the information is technically public and being broadcast to everyone all the time. If they added a DPS meter as a native part of the game it's naive to think it wouldn't be public since that's the current status quo.

The data doesn't belong to you nor is it private.

You currently can't opt out of sharing since it's how the game works.

If they did go with this method of share/no share all the people who are getting kicked from groups due to their lower performance aren't suddenly going to start being allowed into groups...you think the group's they are getting kicked from now / most groups wouldn't run "DPS meter share on" style groups?

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Necro mains delusional as always, 2.6 coof skill on a class with easy to access dmg modifiers cant push past 6k, big kitten XD.

> let alone being so kitten dumb as to say it hits 3k at best.

Again do you know what the coeff means when you actually consider weapon power or are you just reading the wiki, seeing the high number.

You're ignoring the entire multiplicative nature of power damages formula and ignoring the extremely low relative weapon power of true offhand weapons.

Coeffs literally mean nothing when you ignore the weapon power they are coming with.

There are so many skills that are as strong yet they aren't a problem because they aren't the thing currently killing you.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"AleCenta.2190" said:

> > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sifu.9745" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Don't forget: Spinal shivers 1200 yard range 3 boon removal chill that does 9.1k damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Where did you get these numbers from? My best Spinal Shivers crit was around 4k with tons of Might and other buffs and 3 boons on opponent. On average is more likely 2k - 3 k crits.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you sure you talking about the same skill?

> > > > > > spinal shiver

> > > > > > Damage—Three Boons: 867 (2.625)?

> > > > > > over 2.6 coof

> > > > >

> > > > > The coeff doesn't mean what you think it does if you completely ignore weapon power.

> > > > >

> > > > > It could use a damage shave but its meant to, and always will be, a strong single target ability that punishes boons.

> > > > >

> > > > > That the skill is being complained about just shows how much boon creep there has been since the chances of hitting the upper bracket if this skills damage has become almost 100% over the years.

> > > > >

> > > > > You may think "I don't have any boons" but based on the current game state you almost always have at have at least 2 from doing absolutely nothing but existing.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > meta mesmer has access to only 1 boon.

> > > > vigor and it doesnt even have 50% uptime.

> > > > So yes, If I fight reaper in 1v1 and he crits me with it for 5k there is a problem, since AT BEST I can have 2 boons. 1 is vigor after shattering ( at best 20% uptime ) and another is a stolen boon with sigil of absorption.

> > > >

> > > > And honestly entire concept of punishing boons is kitten kitten. Almost nothing punishes boons in this game, most boonrips are even less effective against people that have lots of boons, after all holo with 8 boons doesnt give a kitten when he loses 3, but warrior that has 3 boons is going to have problems when he loses them all.

> > > I've done the math in another thread. It is impossible for the skill to crit for 5k in pvp when 1 boon is removed. Denying that is really pointless. You are argumenting based on your imagination but not on facts.

> > >

> > > And I use this skill each day for years now. In pvp on a berserker or marauder build you can expect between 500 (no boon, no crit) and 6000 (3 boons including protection removed, critical hit, a bit of self might, a bit of vuln. on the target) damage from it. Everything above is extremely rare and you can not realistically build for it.

> > >

> > > The hyperbole is huge in this forum. In the lich threads people said it deals 7+k damage "with ease". The reality is that this is the absolute max for a pve build (zerk amulet, all damage modifiers, no defense) on a light armor target.

> >

> > Don’t mind explaining fact to these people, they argue without using their brains.

> > Spinal shiver is strong but not as op as other skills like power rev ones or renegade shiro sevenshots.

> > You crit 6k a few times and on buffed target.

> > More than 6k means that ur build is kitten and you are playing without armor.

> > It’s funny how no one complains about guards spamming ultra damage kitten and being easy asf to play or shiro renegade not being mentioned. But hey let’s tone down the most counterable class in the game cause it killed me gne gne.

> >

> Don't kid yourself in thinking that reaper isn't part of the big 4 overpowered classes right now.

>

Reaper certainly is strong, yea, but the hyperbolic and exaggerated nature of some complaints in this thread doesn't make then more legitimate not do they lend themselves to be taken seriously.

Even with the few shaves it deserves this won't stop the people complaining when they still die. There never is a "nerf it so it's balanced", it's "nerf it so I don't need to think about it / can't beat it when I think I should be able to." Pretty much every single time.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Sifu.9745" said:

> >

> > >

> > > Don't forget: Spinal shivers 1200 yard range 3 boon removal chill that does 9.1k damage.

> >

> > Where did you get these numbers from? My best Spinal Shivers crit was around 4k with tons of Might and other buffs and 3 boons on opponent. On average is more likely 2k - 3 k crits.

> >

> >

>

> you sure you talking about the same skill?

> spinal shiver

> Damage—Three Boons: 867 (2.625)?

> over 2.6 coof

The coeff doesn't mean what you think it does if you completely ignore weapon power.

It could use a damage shave but its meant to, and always will be, a strong single target ability that punishes boons.

That the skill is being complained about just shows how much boon creep there has been since the chances of hitting the upper bracket if this skills damage has become almost 100% over the years.

You may think "I don't have any boons" but based on the current game state you almost always have at have at least 2 from doing absolutely nothing but existing.

I don't understand a lot of these "the game is coming out on Steam, give us stuff for free" / " people from steam won't like the game unless you include X for free for them...and everyone else" / "please nerf , if you don't steam players won't stay".

Especially the last one. The average skill level of someone who avidly games on Steam is likely miles higher than that of the average guild wars 2 player.

This type of things has always been a part of the franchise. Elite specs are just a different flavour of the dual class system from the original game.

The game isn't suddenly unbalanced because classes and specs don't play to whatever stereotypes and preconceived notions you personally have about them.

Also your whole monologue of "I didn't want to do this" completely ignores the fact that all the other specs for a class will still exist. "But I'm not getting anything new". You are, you just don't like it but alas the game isn't designed around your personal tastes and specifications.

Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

Didn't we do this entire thread like last week?

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > > > @"DeanBB.4268" said:

> > > > Don't we already have a defensive stat vs. Conditions, known as Vitality?

> > >

> > > so tell me... does vitality only affect your life versus condi? do you drop to 11k health when fighting power damage? no?

> > > oh... so you're telling me that the "defensive stat versus conditions" work against power as well? so why is Toughness only affecting power?

> > >

> > > if you don't see the problem here, i'm sorry for you

> >

> > That logic doesn't check out, dude.

> >

> > Conditions can get cleansed, unlike power damage. So if you want these 2 damage types to be absolutely equal, then make all condi cleanses in the game also heal back up the power damage done in the last x seconds as well.

>

> does cleanse heal all the condi damage done in the last x seconds? i think i missed that :open_mouth:

>

No but it in a round about way of thinking it heals the damage you're going to take in the next Y. It's why people make this comparison all the time. Technically it makes sense to do so.

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.

> >

> >

> > I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)

>

> Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)

>

I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point.

It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter".

You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

> >

> > I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

>

> Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

Well this is you're opinion.

But its an actual fact that they were designed to be side grades and them changing them to being so isn't listening "to players complaining they couldn't play boring base classes", its them actually following through with the design philosophy they set out with after falling short on their own expectations and implementation by their own admittance.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> Did the pvp community finally break

Finally? You make it sounds like something recent.

> @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"DreamyAbaddon.3265" said:

> > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> > > > Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me.

> > > >

> > > > Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion.

> > >

> > > This right here. I agree with this.

> >

> > You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that.

>

> I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent seem like a terrible idea to me as well. That data is mine because it's not something the game allows you to have access too without using said third party tool. You're NOT suppose to know this data which is why the game doesn't share it with you. It's like using a glasses to see through walls until to peak at someone's house to see what they are doing. It'd disrespecting one's own privacy. In this case, you're disrespecting the other player's privacy by looking into their data you should NOT have access to.

Your analogy is bad because it assumes some inherent privacy. Problem with this is a) by definition the data is public and not yours and b) you already have access to it but you just can't make sense of it. It's been clarified before. Combat data is completely public.

It's like an author kicking up a fuss because people are reading a book they pick up from a library that the author published by using classes to help them read.

Saying you're not supposed to have something is a bit weird when by definition they already poses what you are saying they shouldn't have.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> I don't think they get banned.

> However, they should get restricted to only showing data of people who have it installed.

>

> The data of people who don't use it shouldn't be visible.

The data doesn't belong to anyone and is inherently public. Which is to say the data is already available to everyone. No mine or yours here. Nothing wrong with reading it at all as it's technically already being done. It's one of the ways the game actually functions. All Arc does is give a fairly accurate approximation of that data and display it in a more readable manner.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

> > >

> > > so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

> > >

> > > "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

> > >

> > > it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

> > >

> > >

> > > Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

> > >

> > > so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

> > >

> > > **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

> >

> > So kick and block with no explanation so they can't be offended by anything you've said to them. Got it. Thanks. It's the new "polite!"

>

> yes, last time my group saw a bad player talking about dps we kicked him at the last boss without saying anything, we did it without a problem with one less player and his dps meter, no offense was needed.

And its likely that without the dps meter that same person would have been just as toxic about something else they think was causing the issue ? Classes? Not enough AP? Weapons etc...any arbitrary thing..you name it they would have picked it. It **literally** happened in the past.

People are acting like toxicity and dps meters are exclusively mutual i.e one doesn't exist without the other.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > Out with them, leads to nothing but toxicty.

> >

> > And people wont be without them? "But its just another avenue and without it..." etc etc. If you go down that route so much more needs to be removed..and you know what? People would still be toxic.

>

> All such thirdparty addons needs to go.

I'm not exclusively talking about 3rd party stuff. You think stuff in game is exempt from "causing" toxicity?

> @"dace.8019" said:

> I honestly cannot believe some people in this thread are aguing against improving this game's performance. It is probably the most significant problem it has.

About the same as my disbelief at people trivialising how difficult, costly, and time consuming some things are.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> Out with them, leads to nothing but toxicty.

And people wont be without them? "But its just another avenue and without it..." etc etc. If you go down that route so much more needs to be removed..and you know what? People would still be toxic.

I find it weird people think that if there was an in-game meter it wouldn't have a share feature. The game is literally broadcasting everything you're doing to everyone already.

Also that somehow the parties they are seemingly trying to hide their performance to get into won't require you to be opted into the share and everything would be just as it is now when it comes to group content.

/Shrug

> @"Mindless.9721" said:

> I love how the people on here who always argue "it only works against bad players" or "just learn how to play against it" never really say ANYTHING about how to actually counter such builds.

>

>

They do but this isn't the only thread about it and people get tired of repeating themselves for people who seldom actually care about the details and just want to complain.

I get the forum is generally filled with poor ideas but...wow..

Pretty much every suggestion made here is detrimental.