Konig Des Todes.2086

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses. > But the thing is you can't trust Kormir, Balthazar fooled even her with Lyssa's mirror. She is the goddess of truth but can't see through Lyssa's illusion and this makes her a less powerful Goddess. She absorbed the powers of a fallen God after all. I would argue that Kormir lied about Balthazar fooling her, because it simply doesn't make sense. According to Siren's Landing lore (S3E6), Balthazar showed up _as himself_ to hide the aspect of Lazarus, something he did to ensure his disguise wouldn't be figured out. He also took some undefined artifacts from multiple gods' reliquaries (no doubt including the mirror, his greatsword, and his armor). Since he was not hiding himself as Lazarus, this means that this happened either after the mirror was broken, or before he obtained the mirror (it could not have been after Dragon Vigil of S3E2 as Marjory was with him the entire time). However, if the mirror was broken, then there would have been no point in hiding the aspect of Lazarus there, as his disguise was already removed. So this visit _**had**_ to occur prior to Episode 2. Which means Kormir either lied to us, or wasn't paying attention and omitted the fact she wasn't _always_ watching. Furthermore, even before the Forged, he was in Elona making deals with Joko. The way dialogue goes in PoF is that Joko was MIA for quite some time, and the Forged have been ransaking things for weeks. There wouldn't have been much time between the end of Flashpoint and the beginning of Path of Fire to show up before Joko, convince him to assist, find Kesho, interrogate and wipe out the Exalted, create the Forged prototypes, imprison Joko in the Domain of the Lost, **and** convert all his Eternals into true Forged, and still be assaulting with enough time to spare that refugees flood Lion's Arch - all this being a 4 month span. Seems more likely to me that Balthazar was in Elona, as Balthazar, before the events of Flashpoint. Which further suggests Kormir lied to us about Balthazar and Lyssa's mirror. As an aside: this would means it had to be done before Rising Flames (S3E2) due to Marjory's presence, so he was probably acting "as Balthazar" before the revelation of Out of the Shadows, and we know that in the the later part of the year-ish gap between HoT and S3 beginning, Bauer was working under the orders of _someone_ who wasn't Caudecus - namely, it'd have been "Lazarus" aka Balthazar, either disguised or not being unclear, but with no constant communication, making side-trips to Elona would have made sense and finding Kesho first would explain how Balthazar knew about Tarir's location, the existence of Aurene, and how to get into the protected nursery area. _Point being_, while I would say "Kormir isn't to be trusted", I disagree with _why_. Kormir was clearly trying to paint Lyssa as suspicious in her journal and speech, which Kormir wouldn't bother doing if Lyssa was dead. Kormir's actions were more geared towards framing Lyssa for something, than being a blind idiot god. Also, **Abaddon was still a full god.** Balthazar and Dhuum were _former_ gods with their divinity stripped. Abaddon was fallen, in the sense of being evil, but he was still a full fledged god with all his power - that power was merely locked away behind seals in his prison, so he couldn't use the full might. Varesh's purpose in the Nightfall plot was to unlock those eight seals so as to return his power. Abaddon was at (presumably, depending on how the seals function) at 3/8th of his full might when killed. But his power was all there in the end, he just couldn't access it.

> @"Stephen.6312" said: > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising? > > I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively. Kind of hard to grasp the fine details when ANet's willingly adding 5 days to the end of it as a recent lore discovery despite it making zero logical sense. > Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess *is* telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines. > > I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of. Risen are pathological liars, and Path of Fire gives us solid evidence counter to the notion that Zhaitan ate Lyssa. Even dismissing Kormir (and her journal) as not trustworthy as @"Touchme.1097" does, there's the fact that Balthazar's magic getting eaten by Kralkatorrik resulted in Kralk gaining Mists-hoping abilities; Zhaitan never even left Orr, so Lyssa would have had to gone to _him_ to be killed and eaten by Zhaitan. This would not go unnoticed by the world, as even Balthazar's return was noticed even with the mirror. And as to "no one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of." The whole idea of the Elder Dragons having eaten one or more god (or even _be_ one of the gods' split personality) has been theorized since 2012. And routenly disproven. The number of theories that try to relate the Elder Dragons and Six Gods in some manner are widely diverse and extremely numerous. This isn't all that new, just taking new lore to alter it a bit.

> @"TeeracK.3601" said: > It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? All evidence would say no. Primordus and Jormag were born long, **long** before the Six Gods knew of Tyria, let alone arrived on the planet. Their lifespan no doubt predates Lyssa's lifespan. Similarly, Jormag is an established liar and manipulator during the previous dragonrise, which again predates the Six Gods' knowledge of (let alone arrival on) the planet. When Balthazar said "they dimmed my light", he was referring to the fact the other gods removed his divinity before imprisoning him. Balthazar wasn't an actual god anymore, but a former one like Dhuum. And evidence from PoF indicates that Lyssa's still alive when Balthazar was imprisoned, which was sometime in the last 250 years, again long after any manipulation or twin situation from Jormag and Primordus was about. The only Elder Dragon credited with eating a god is Zhaitan (Kralkatorrik consuming former god Balthazar's magic not including) and that is by all indication a lie designed to demoralize human Pact soldiers.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > Still think they should have referenced at least some of it in the game, like, my character would say "the all" or something, and i could look it up. With the half sentences they said, i had nothing to cling to for information. Weird writing... Up to that point, i was understanding the story, but this just threw me for a loop. Well, they reference Omadd's Machine throughout the season, which has a singular link to The All from Season 2. That link was supposed to be the prompting rather than saying The All. For example: > Taimi: Get ready for the dragon battle to end all dragon battles! A steamy wing-fist to icy face-jaw fight to the death! > Taimi: It's Jormag versus Primorduuuuuuuus! > : Uh... Am I to infer...? > Taimi: The experiment was a success! And I'm having the heart of **Omadd's machine** delivered to Rata Novus. > Taimi: With it, I should be able to see the Eternal Alchemy and manipulate the dragons' energies to pit 'em against one another. > Taimi: Spencer's research is continuing to pay dividends! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eyes_on_Lake_Doric > Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of **Omadd's Machine**. > Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer... > Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together. > Taimi: Thus, cancelling them out. I.E. dragons go (death sound). https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > Ah, so that's what eternal alchemy is. Thanks! Nooot quite. That's The All. The All is the interworking magic system for Tyria (world). Eternal Alchemy is a philosophical belief about the interworking and connections of all things in the multiverse. The All is basically the magic equivalent of Earth's wind currents + magnetic poles, etc. Whereas Eternal Alchemy is the equivalent of astronomy+religion. Though NPCs in Season 1 and 2 do equate the two, and sadly so does Taimi in Season 3 as per above, this is a false equivalent. Still, it's a false equivalent used _consistently_ so the context is there in the words.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > In the Draconis Mons part of the LW3 story, when you're collecting druid shields to go into the volcano where Balthazar and Primordus are, Taimi calls you and says something about how she was wrong, doomed everyone, horrible stuff will happen, then you go to the shore so she can show you and an animation plays. > > There's some swirling balls, two of them shoot lazers at each other and disappear. > > After the animation, the commander is like: > > *"No, it can't be..."* > *"But this means..."* > > And Taimi is like: > > *"Yes, exactly, and it's all my fault..."* > > Like, what the hell is anyone talking about? What will happen? What did Balthazar do? What will happen if he does the thing to Primordus? > What even is going on? > > Did this really need to be so obtuse? I feel like an idiot when my characters are all agreeing in half sentences and know more than i do. > Wasn't that animation supposed to explain to me what is going on and not raise more questions? Especially since my character already knows what that meant. > > Can someone explain that part to me? For context of what the cinematic shows, refer back to Season 2's story instance [The Machine](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Machine), there was [a cinematic]( ) featuring [The All](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All), and The All has been referenced a handful of times since. For fast rewatch reference, here's [Flashpoint's cinematic]( ) This simulation is depicting The All, and what would happen should [Taimi's Machine](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi's_Machine), which Balthazar stole at the beginning of that episode, get turned on. Energies from Jormag and Primordus (represented by the orbs) will assault each other. If you note, in the background Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's orbs are dim and drifting, while Kralkatorrik's and the DSD's are just as bright as Jormag's and Primordus' orbs are (and mobile too). Should Taimi's Machine get used the the dragons killed by each others' magic, there will be an explosion, and the central orb (the world of Tyria) will die, as the entire system of The All becomes unstable (depicted by the central orb glowing and the rings throughout (and the other orbs) moving erratically until the whole thing explodes). > Did this really need to be so obtuse? I feel like an idiot when my characters are all agreeing in half sentences and know more than i do. They're speaking in half-sentences because the context was provided throughout the season. This was the big culmination episode, so it can't really be done out of context.

I have no real comment on the Crecia part because I can see both sides of the argument of how it's good and bad actions by a character. I do hate that they so nonchalantly replaced Smodur and Bangar without fanfare after promoting some voting to take place for players in the post-Episode 4 IBS (this expansion better be very damn good for the shit quality of Champions, tbh). > @"devanea.2041" said: > So onto the inconsistency, it's been mentioned at least once by the commander that it's been ten years. Not just once, but over three times, by all three main characters. This bugged me a **LOT** because as you point out, it's completely false. First off, it's 1334 AE now, but the _beginning_ of. The peace treaty doesn't have an exact date for when it was signed, but the _cease-fire agreement_ to begin peace treaty talks began in 1324 AE. This is likely what's being referenced with 10 years, but it's false - it's still only just over 9 years, since it was signed in _mid to late 1324 AE_. But can round to 10, so that's fine. The peace treaty itself was signed at some point while the Commander was off in Elona, as established by [Guide to Greater Understanding collection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guide_to_Greater_Understanding), where the PC non-chalantly tells Xeniph _"The treaty of Ebonhawke was signed."_ This came between S4E3 and S4E4, so in 1331 AE. In Season 2 (1328 AE), the treaty had notably _not_ been signed yet; probably wasn't signed in Season 3 (1330 AE) either since Caudecus' faction was a major opposition to the treaty. The cease-fire agreemenet is 9.5-ish years. Sure, round to 10, that's fine. The peace treaty is between 3 and 6 years old. > I'm not a fan of the DRM content or the way they are ending icebrood Saga but this was salt in the wound. I'm not opposed to DRM. I actually like the style, but I feel it needs improvement - specifically, the concept is a good way to make replayability of story chapters worthwhile. But yeah, the lore for Champions is so far very lacking, and this particular DRM is _seriously_ insulting to vets. They're actively ignoring or throwing the rug over a lot of Ascalon related lore now, which GW1 vets would hold closest to them because Ascalon was a huge part of Prophecies.

> @"Tyson.5160" said: > I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue. If you're referring to the ice encasing the villagers in the DRMs, then that is newly created for IBS. But many models got updated or replaced for IBS, such as the Icebrood Goliath that got a complete retexture when Episode 2 came out (like the Inquest Golems did). > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik. Sure, but no reason it _must_ be access to one of its domains. Especially since Primordus has managed to filter the death and plant magic to convert it into fire and destruction magic. It would be a bit weird to me, for Primordus to have Fury/Crystal magic, but no visible show of this in the destroyers. One would expect burning crystals or something, I'd imagine.

> @"Randulf.7614" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > > > @"Amanda Whitemoon.6173" said: > > > > it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something > > > > > > Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus > > > > We know that the Great Dwarf technically is a god, like the human gods, even though he is the collective consciousness of **all** dwarves. > > We know that he once walked on Tyria, like the Human Gods, but then moved into the Mists to rule over the Great Forge (the Dwarven afterlife). > > Since he possessed the ability to move through the Mists before the dragons absorbed it from Balthazar, it's safe to say he never was a Dragon minion. > > We don't know it was an entity at all. All indications are that this is part of Dwarven mythology which had got twisted down the millennia into becoming a worshipable entity and it fact was a magical rite which united the consciousness of the Dwarves and converted them to be able to fight a racial enemy in Primordus from an earlier awakening > > There is no indication there ever was a Great Dwarf who created the race and then went off to this Great Forge in the Rift and exists there still. It appears to be nothing more than mythology. Well, when asked whether the Great Dwarf was _just_ the collective conscious, or a specific entity, Jeff Grubb (one of the two main lore writers at the time) effectively said that it could be both. > The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened. > The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods.” https://www.guildmag.com/gmblitz-lore-interview-with-jeff-grubb/ Mind you this is a bit old and the writers since Jeff and Ree left have considered out of game lore to be "psuedo-canon", so it can easily change. But in effect, the Great Dwarf is the collective conscious, but there _could_ be a singular entity once in the past that no one has solid proof of having met. Which would make sense, because there are stories of the Great Dwarf that just don't fit with it being a collective conscious - specifically, the Anvil of Dragrimmar (I'd say "creating the race at Anvil Rock", but one could argue a theory that Anvil Rock was where dwarves went from originally stone to flesh and blood, before eventually returning to stone). You say "there's no indication" but that's a lot of myths to make up about a singular entity. Why would a collective conscious use a singular specific anvil, one far too large for your average dwarf at that (it's more jotun-sized if anything). Why would a collective conscious go off to the Mists and establish the Great Forge afterlife? Stories can only be twisted _so much_, so it seems likely that there was an individual, though this individual may not have been a god named the Great Dwarf.

> @"Tyson.5160" said: > Couple things; both dragons clearly got a magic boost from Kralkatorrik, this is a fact, no disputing this. I guess the question is, what did each dragon get? > > Jormag clearly got a bit of Balthazar’s magic from Kralkatorrik, as he is able to mist travel. > > Is it that possibility that Primordus acquired, the Crystal and Fury aspect then, with the new feedback loop. This seems to be a new thing, never came up in core or Season 3, however is now a thing in IBS, with Taimi advising that the ability has amplified by Kralkatorrik’s death. The loop itself does seem to have characteristics of Crystal magic, with the destroyers going increasingly rabid and out of control could be an aspect of Fury magic. Never said that they didn't get power boosts from Kralkatorrik's (or Balthazar's) death. However, I don't think they necessarily got access to either of his domains. Keep in mind, Aurene took in the lion's share of Kralkatorrik's magic, but showed no sign of having gained powers from the magic of Zhaitan, Balthazar, or possibly Mordremoth from that moment. At most, we do see her using plants, but it's well known she got a decent portion of Mordy's magic on his death, so the flowers could be from that (just as Caithe got crystal flowers before Kralk's death when Aurene branded her). While there is a very factual flow of magic from Kralkatorrik's death that boosted Jormag and Primordus, for all we know that was the foreign magic that Kralkatorrik consumed, and Aurene let out nothing that was Crystal and Fury. Which means to say that the two Elder Dragons would have gotten more of Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's (we also know that Kralk and Aurene didn't consume all of Balthazar's magic, since the entire lore behind volatile magic floating around in Season 4 is magic altered by Balthazar's death). As to the feedback loop being new or not - Primordus was never studied completely, he was very enigmatic throughout Core and even in Season 3. Just because it's a new discovery and new to the audience, doesn't mean it's a new ability. After all, the writers swap around a lot, and could be slipping that in as being an old ability, just like how "corrupting corpses" was retroactively impossible for the five ED (despite us seeing Jormag do that) until Zhaitan died. The writers are even rebranding Primordus as the dragon of fire and _destruction_, rather than conflagaration, and the feedback loop where Primordus gets power from _destroying things_ could be them explaining this second domain in Primordus (something they never firmly did with Kralkatorrik and that got disappointed commentary by the lore community).

> @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined. > > > > I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in [this Frostgorge event](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Depthless_Sea_defeat_the_icebrood_kodan). These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like [how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branding_Crystal). Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc. > > > > But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: [Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Out). And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest). > > > > I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits). > > But you would think that using Primordus fire magic would destroy this ice, no? How is it immune to the destroyers, as stated by Ryland? The short answer? Jormag's blood. In Drizzlewood, specifically the story of episode 4, it's established that the glaciers that moved back were formed out of Jormag's blood, and that as such they held a high quantity of magic - magic Jormag was pulling back into themself to hasten its awakening. This form of corrupted ice, dubbed by ANet devs as "Torment Ice" (due to being retextured versions of the rocks made for the Mouth of Torment in The Desolation) is not like the typical and easier-to-destroy shimmering black-and-blue ice we saw through the core game and Bitterfrost, but is instead made from Jormag's blood. Much like the Sanguinary Blade. Because of that, it's not just more potent in corrupting, it's overall stronger in Jormag's magic because it's made from a higher quantity of said magic. In the same way that Dragonsblood Spears made from Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood were far superior to those made from Branded crystallized blood. This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least. When the maps were found by that_shaman, I was a bit confused as to why they were using this corrupted ice rather than the original corrupted ice if it was just "Jormag's corruption", but if the intent was "higher concentration of Jormag's magic", then it makes sense to use this, the highest concentration there could be.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > Both Primordus and Jormag are using the resonance magic that strengthened Kralkatorrik and his Branded **and was Kralkatorrik's weakness.** > I certainly hope Arenanet won't ignore the bolded part for Jormag and Primordus. I wouldn't assume that just because they gained abilities from the dead elder dragons that they also gained their weaknesses too. Otherwise, Jormag would get severely weakened from killing Drakkar and The Whisper of Jormag, just like Zhaitan with his specialized minions (I know Drakkar predates Jormag getting Zhaitan magic, but he is indeed a specialized minion like the Eyes and Mouths, and like Bangar; I doubt Jormag would offer such a crucial piece of killing Jormag to Aurene if Jormag adopted Zhaitan's weaknesses as well as strengths). I wouldn't even say that Jormag is using resonance magic. At best, it's crystal magic but as pointed out, freezing over people into a hibernative state isn't new, it'd just be new to not be corrupting them in the process (but even that isn't _entirely_ new, per Rox). With Primordus, we can't be certain that this is a new ability of his gained from Kralkatorrik, or an old ability which just got amplified by a boost in magic from Kralkatorrik and Balthazar.

> @"Tyson.5160" said: > Jormag’s Frozen appear to be a new ability too, as it’s never been mentioned until now. I assumed this is the ice and crystal domain combined. I would disagree here. Jormag is well known for freezing individuals. We see it happen in the quaggan PS, and we see it happen in [this Frostgorge event](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Depthless_Sea_defeat_the_icebrood_kodan). These events result in the subject becoming Icebrood though, much like [how Kralkatorrik brands through encasing in crystal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branding_Crystal). Ryland and Bangar were also corrupted by being encased in ice, the very same effect used for the Frozen iirc. But there is one case of a frozen individual who wasn't corrupted and didn't show any signs of being at risk of being corrupted: [Rox during the Ice Beast fight in Season 3](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Out). And it should be noted that the Ice Beast model has reappeared several times in IBS as a minion of Jormag, despite its peculiar difference from other icebrood (namely that burning chest). I don't think this is a new ability, but rather an old ability used in a new way and amplified by a boost in power (mostly from the Lost Spirits).

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > A relatively intact corpse does seem to play some role although there are some contradictions at play when you factor in the minion mechanic which defiles a corpse.. although it is largely left intact in a manner of speaking. There's also the manner of separation of mechanics and lore with minion skills, and the inability to do so without dialogue or scripted sequences. > I must admit I don't remember Ahtok though, I have very little memory of Nightfall and haven't played it in a long time. Ahtok is a minor but reoccurring sunspear character in NF, he was part of Lonai's squad IIRC and is most prevailant for NF-originating characters as most of his screentime is in Istan. He dies in the first 5 seconds of the Consulate Docks mission (attacking Gandara) to a siege artillery (fulfilling a bit of irony where in Istan he says the worst way to die is by siege artillery), but returns as a ghost in the Realm of Torment to help guide us to Kormir and the Gate of Madness.

I think the deaths of three Elder Dragons is the exact cause (that, and a swap in writers who often overlook or change a **lot** of lore predating the latest two seasons of the release), since this would mean Primordus has fewer rivalries (2-or-3 versus original 5) and also has more magic. And as Randulf said, there would be fewer dwarves around now, but also a **lot** of destroyers from that 200 year buildup. So Primordus has a much better starting point this time than he did 200 years ago, giving him a similar starting point as Zhaitan who woke up with a ton of powerful magical artifacts and an entire army right under his wings, and as such was the most devastating of the Elder Dragons to Central Tyria despite his magic having been drained while asleep.

The Elder Dragons don't work with each other. They're not allies nor servants to one another, and this even goes for the DSD who is just as malicious as the other five are/were. Primordus isn't serving the DSD. I also don't think ANet is willing to do such an asspull move as "everything you've done for the past year has been a dream".

I don't get the notion of keeping Almorra alive, just to _force_ her into retirement. Which is also very out of character and disrespectful to charr lore. Which, ironically, is something you say you're trying to do. Specifically, I'm referring to the charr cultural concept of "[the final patrol](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_patrol)". As explained [by Rox](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Origins_of_Madness:_A_Moment%27s_Peace#Dialogue) in late Season 1 when talking about [Asagai](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asagai), when a charr is too old and/or injured and a gladium, they tend to go out on "one final patrol". A patrol to the death, where they can die in battle as a soldier of the Legions. If Almorra was in such a condition she could no longer lead the Vigil on the battlefield, you can bet your ass that she'd rather go out in a blaze of glory than sitting in some hearth getting older. She's promote Laranthir to be General, and probably Jhavi to Grand Warmarshal, and then go solo into the wilderness in a heavily contested area. Because that's what charr do. Not all deaths are glorious, and this was a fine end for her, especially with Visions of the Past showing how she died and that she did have that "going in a blaze of glory" style deathmatch in the end. And like Greyhawk said, it makes no sense for Rytlock to succumb to Jormag. Hell, it was weird enough that he turned on the Commander in Episode 2. Ryland becoming Jormag's champion fits perfectly well with how they built him up, and honors "the old lore" pretty decently. What _doesn't_ honor the old lore, is (in no particular order) a) Drakkar's appearance, b) Owl's sudden survival just to die the next scene, c) the succession of Imperator-ship, d) arguably Smodur's personality, e) the sudden survival of so many stone dwarves after saying that they've been practically entirely wiped out in EoD novel and Season 2 and Season 3. And possibly more, but small points overall.

> @"Fenella.2634" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Fenella.2634" said: > > > Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :) > > > > > > However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make. > > > So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace. > > > > While you are correct that the Commander's circumstances were very unique, no resurrection results in undeath of any form simply because of the spellcaster/school of magic/magical energy involved. In GW1, resurrection spells belonged exclusively to healer classes - monks, ritualists, and paragons - which seem to utilize the school of Preservation (and mechanically, used holy/light energy)- all three also merged into the Guardian; meanwhile, undeath spells belonged exclusively to the necromancer profession (no surprise), which utilized the school of Aggression (and mechanically, dark/unholy energy). So the Commander not becoming undead is rather "the very same as all other resurrections in the GW universe". > Wait, player gameplay deaths are canon deaths? I always thought they were just unconscious or something and the resurrection spells were not exactly resurrections. It's a blurry area. [Reyna](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reyna) has dialogue talking about how the group died, lampshading the henchmen AI. So it's presumable that it has occurred in canon. _"Remember all those times we were dying and I was the only one left standing but I used my signet on Alesia instead of you only to have her die while attempting to restore Lina's life? Yeah, good times. Good times."_ But those spells existing is indeed canon, as they're even mentioned [in the Battle for Khylo short story](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Battle_for_Kyhlo). > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Hmm.. > I'm going to throw this one out there but I don't think the physical "condition" of the corpse is as relevant as some of you have been arguing about here. > > Thinking back on Gw1.. Minions were a thing and back then they used and were made from corpses, so you could die and your corpse could have been defiled to create minions and you could still be resurrected despite your spine and muscular system running around smacking things, you simply get new ones XD > I know this is just a mechanical thing but lets just consider it for the sake of argument. > > When you die in these games your soul finds it's way to the mists, I would say that this natural process is basically the time limit for resurrection before your soul becomes part of the mists and there is no longer enough life in your body for you to be resurrected. > Once the Soul is gone for too long, resurrection becomes almost impossible. > In Gw1 resurrection magic was very common as Konig has pointed out several times and yet there were still deaths in the game which all ultimately shared a common circumstance. > That being there were no friendly beings around to revive them in time.. so they died for good. Gadd, Togo, and Ahtok had several allies nearby to revive them. Ahtok dies right in front of us, even, with no immediate pressure to not resurrect. But they still died permanently. Gadd and Ahtok died via explosion - their bodies were no doubt _highly_ mangled (Ahtok's doesn't look so for obvious mechanical reasons). If he was able to, I feel confident that Vekk would have resurrected Gadd - Gadd still had a body to be cremated, so it wasn't outright gone. And if being made undead doesn't prevent resurrection in lore, then why do no undead get "unkilled" and resurrected? So it stands to reason that there is a "point of no return" for how mangled a body can be and still be viable for resurrection. The question is mostly just _where is that point_? The only real confirmations about "what's beyond that point" would be "exploded body" and "rotten body".

The reason why the dialogue boxes have "normal flesh and blood looks" is due to how the dialogue box portrait works. It takes a quick screencap of the NPC/character in question at the time the dialogue box opens, but this screencap **lacks all effects.** For these new stone dwarves, how they're made seems to be the same way as the Thunderhead Keep dwarves from S4E5: taking a norn, squashing them down, and applying the necessary effect (in S4, it was the ghost effect; in S5, it is the Stoneskin Aura / Revenant's Rite of the Great Dwarf effect). Because of this oversight when making the system, all ghosts and other figures which have an effect modifying their appearance will be missing said effect when opening a dialogue box with them, and sometimes will be missing in their portrait when selecting them. So this mechanic is of zero foreshadowing. The reason why > As far as I know all the other stone dwarfs we've met up to now always looked the same in their portraits. is the case, is because Rhoban and Ogden do not use squashed norn models, but unique models and a unique rig in Ogden's case (which has no animations other than idle and talk). I imagine if you look at the dwarves, you'll find each hairstyle belongs to norn or humans. It is possible they made new hairstyles though, but I find that unlikely.

> @"Fenella.2634" said: > Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :) > > However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make. > So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace. While you are correct that the Commander's circumstances were very unique, no resurrection results in undeath of any form simply because of the spellcaster/school of magic/magical energy involved. In GW1, resurrection spells belonged exclusively to healer classes - monks, ritualists, and paragons - which seem to utilize the school of Preservation (and mechanically, used holy/light energy)- all three also merged into the Guardian; meanwhile, undeath spells belonged exclusively to the necromancer profession (no surprise), which utilized the school of Aggression (and mechanically, dark/unholy energy). So the Commander not becoming undead is rather "the very same as all other resurrections in the GW universe". Also, there seems precedence that - outside of mechanics - being turned into an undead voids the possibility of resurrection (at the very least, no undead was ever later resurrected, nor was such attempted, and when labeling the two acts together as something Dhuum despised, they were mentioned as separate things). Whether an individual would be resurrected or become undead would most likely depend on whether it's a guardian or necromancer spell being performed (to use GW2 professions), but there's the entire matter of _would it even work_ to consider.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > > I'm not inclined to think that the D'alessio Seaboard still exists thanks to the changing sea levels caused by Orr rising. Yeah, Southsun's placement on the map is awkward but just because you don't like certain content doesn't mean that it shouldn't exists. I rather like Southsun. > > > > The dev's removed most of the npcs and content in the second living story update. There is actually zero content on the left of the island. I was there when the karka queen died in season 1 the entire zone was gutted and left as a pointless husk. > > Pure hyperbole. I've been around GW2 just as long and I do remember the changes Southsun has gone through since its release in November of 2012. Its changed but its not been "Gutted", the majority of the events it started with are still there. I think Terrack is referring to the removal of the Settler vs Consortium content from Secret of Southsun / Last Stand at Southsun after May 2013. 17 events were added for the duration of those four weeks, but only 7 were kept (three being "altered" (aka replaced by near identical events)), specifically those involved with the Karka Queen meta were kept; there were dozens of NPCs added, and almost all of them removed. In addition, one event was removed entirely, and another (a patrol) was gated to behind player count rather than always present. Southsun Cove would be far more interesting if those 10 events were never removed. But we can say the same for all Season 1 content. The Lost Shores' ending did remove a handful of events in Southsun, but also added a handful as well. namely, those removed were about establishing a base in Southsun Cove - something that would have had been removed with Secret of Southsun Cove anyways (it **was** barren between The Lost Shores and Secret of Southsun, admittedly). Most events removed weren't in Southsun Cove, but were involved in "phase 1" of The Lost Shores (quaggan rescue, largos escort, elixer making, karka invasion repelling, etc.) and were more story-focused. If ANet ever brings back Season 1 in a serious manner, I imagine most events from The Lost Shores would be more likely to be turned into micro story instances instead of returning as events.

> @"TeeracK.3601" said: > I always assumed the bridges in stairs of devastation could open up for ships to pass same with the scavengers' causeway probably having some kind of canal. Well, those bridges were made by the Pact. There's no indication they raise, but no need for them to either - by the time Zhaitan dies and they open up ship trade to Labyrinthine Cliffs and Amnoon, they could have torn those hastily built bridges and made better ones. The shallowness can also be attributed to Zhaitan raising Orr, rather than having always been that way (and can also be attributed to the fact that the game downscales the size of areas in the open world rather than fitting lore distances). > I always was really trigged by how they had already made the d'alessio seafront and when they did the karka instead of using it they decided to make up this massive ugly island that sucks(southsun cove) and it just completely retconned all the past maps from gw1 and even early gw2 for no reason. the legeitamately ruined the sea of sorrow's now and it doesn't make sense anymore. I really hope when the deep sea dragon is a thing he sinks the entire left side of southsun since they deleted all its content and its just an eye sore. It isn't really a retcon, since the entire story of the island is that it's a newly formed and still volcanic piece of land (particularly the main portion where the karka hive is, hence why there's lava so close to the surface). The only "old island" part of Southsun Cove is Pearl Inlet. This is the entire backstory of Canach's involvement. It's a newly formed island that was discovered in the wake of Zhaitan's death and the freeing up of sea travel with no/fewer dead ships. The Consortium laid claim to it, and sent Canach's team to survey the land, but despite the dead ship presence, the karka had settled there (avoiding Orr because they're smarter than quaggans and krait in avoiding dragon minions). > whats even worse is this location here which is right under the d'alessio seafront has always been on the map, has no lore, and is almost the exact size of south sun which is mostly a pointless zone with no content anyway so its size didnt matter as much. They could have easily put the karka stuff in the north part and the resort part on the smaller island. It's location even made more sense for the location if they were going to attack LA. > >  Fun fact, but that area was a scrapped mostly-aquatic level that was slated for the core release. This is why there's a path from Sparkfly Fen to that general area. Other scrapped areas that didn't get enough development to make it into the gw.dat like the original Lake Doric or the unnamed map at D'Alessio Seaboard. There was also a planned map north of Brisban, and south of Mount Maelstrom (also mostly aquatic) - hence why we can see zone portals leading into those directions. The reason why they did Southsun Cove instead of bringing that map back, I could only assume to be because players hated on underwater combat so much (same with Lake Doric's drainage - would have been **great** to have had the original with a giant ass whirlpool in the lake).

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > @Konig Des Todes.2086 > I won't quote your post in my reply because it's really long. Thank you for doing your research and taking your time to write a lot of information about the lore in GW1. > I have to admit I have made a mistake while presenting my argument so I am going to rephrase my point about the cinematic: "The commander suffered stab wounds, severe skin burns and a fireball the size of an Asura being thrown to his/her face capable to make the commander's head explode for the impact". I am sure we can agree about this now that we both double checked the cinematic. > > Regards A fireball the size of an asura? Not really. The size of an asura's head? _Maybe._ Perspective can be a bitch at telling sizes, and that's got a warped perspective (and other filter effects going on) that makes it hard to make an exact measurement and comparison. Also, "capable to make the commander's head explode for the impact" is also a huge stretch there, and unfounded statement you're trying to pass as true (the very thing you claimed I was doing). There is **zero** indication that the Commander's body was disfigured - and before you say "but PEGI 12!" we [literally have a headlesss model in game](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Risen_Plague_Carrier_(human_male).jpg). [Two in fact](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lord_Humphrey_Faren). Possibly more I'm unaware of. Cross-section of the neck included! We also have [severed arms](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Arm), [even as a weapon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhaitan%27s_Reach), and a model [without hands](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cashel) with dialogue stating said hands were cut off. [There's even dialogue about placing rotting pumpkins on hanged men's heads.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rufus) PEGI 12 allows for quite some gruesome stuff, in all honesty. Americans can be weird when it comes to appropriate and inappropriate things. Blood and gore? Okay. Swear words _OH GOD NO OH GOD WHY WOULD YOU INCLUDE THAT!?_ If nothing else, _dialogue_ would indicate that the Commander's body was in very bad condition, especially if they were burned to ashes or had a missing head. But given that it never came up, and the only thing mentioned is that the Commander was confirmed dead, there's no reason to believe that the Commander's body was in such poor condition.

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references. > The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body. Resurrection was a common magic in GW1, and usually those resurrected suffered from various wounds. So, since you seem to be insisting that "good condition" means _no injuries at all_, that very much isn't the case. The only solid evidence of why someone couldn't be resurrected in GW1 were three things: 1. Their soul was unavailable to be put in their body (e.g., Chosen killed atop of Bloodstones). 2. Too much time had passed (e.g., Rurik). 3. Their body is severely damaged beyond repair (e.g., Gadd, who died in an explosion). Typical battle wounds wouldn't be apart of such. And as for the Commander - the only solidly canonical damage they took was a magic sword from the ground, and a fireball to the face. They were **not** skewed by Balthazar's sword in the cinematic (which is only "wide enough to split the body in two" for asura and thin sylvari, really). If you don't believe they they were hit with a fireball and not Balthazar's greatsword, I recommend you look up the cinematic on youtube. After chaining Aurene, Balthazar summons a fireball and hurls it at you. Sufficient to kill, but not burn and certainly not cut in half. > @"Touchme.1097" said: > Second point is you don't have the authority to claim which character is considered to be retired from the game, only ArenaNet has that authority and you should leave that kind of claim to them. I never said anything about being retired from the game. Souls are a thing, and we've seen ghosts return. Trahearne and Vlast can 100% return as souls. But their bodies are in no condition to be resurrected, nor do I think either (especially Vlast) would _want_ to be resurrected. Of course, this isn't to say there is absolutely no way in any shape or form for them to come back as living beings - Shiro Tagachi managed to create a new body through powerful and ancient rituals and curse breaking, so in theory anyone could. But the conditions needed for such are extensive and rather unique. Shiro had a fallen god of knowledge behind him, was an Envoy that commanded a legion of souls, was cursed by a magically powerful bloodline of Canthan emperors, and required said bloodline (among additional unknown things) to perform his own resurrection. > Your assumption is not even a theory because you revolve your claims over one case of death experience in canon, the commander, and that is neither enough to expand the rule on everything else nor a factual theory you can generalize with. One? Let me site the number of deaths in canon where resurrection was readily available, but the figure was not resurrected: * [Mordakai](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Battle_for_Kyhlo) - Abandoned body * [Prince Rurik](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Frost_Gate#End_cinematic) - Abandoned body * [saidra](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ice_Caves_of_Sorrow#Intermediate_cinematic) - Abandoned body * [Master Togo](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Imperial_Sanctum#Opening_cinematic) - used in ritual * [Ahtok](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consulate_Docks#Initial_dialogue) - death by siege explosion * [Kehanni](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grand_Court_of_Sebelkeh#Opening_cinematic) - used in ritual * [Gadd](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Genius_Operated_Living_Enchanted_Manifestation#End_cinematic) - explosion * Several hundred soldiers, civilians, adventurers, and hundreds of Chosen in GW1 that aren't directly part of the main plot. I am not pulling this out of my ass. I'm basing this off of the lore present when resurrection magic was a common enough thing in the world to actually [be mentioned casually](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reyna#Dialogue) in a very much not-forth-wall-breaking moment. Resurrection may be a lost magic in GW2's time, but it was pretty common place in GW1. And yet, despite this, there were notable deaths without resurrection. And in my list above, you can see some reoccurring themes. And since you seem to have it stuck in your head, let me clarify: I am **NOT** proclaiming to determine the lore. No, I am merely reciting the established lore that was determined by the writers - not I. > We know dragons feed on ley-line energies to grow bigger like Aurene and the other elder dragons did. We know ley-line energies can convert into matter so it's still valid to assume that a spirit can come back to life on its own physical body if there is enough energy available to be consumed in order to achieve this task, this doesn't contradict the way the commander came back to life if you have played the story and remember what you had to do to escape the domain of the lost. life force != magical energy I'm not sure why you're trying to make the relation. While lore does show that life force could be tapped into as a replacement of magical energy (hence why things like [soul batteries](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_battery) existed), there's no evidence of the inverse happening. And with the Commander's _very unique situation_, they were using the life force of souls being freed from a powerful demon to jump start a resurrection spell (had they relied on GW1's method of resurrection, too much time would have passed most likely). > This also means that any NPC, good or bad, big or small, could come back to life if there is enough energy to be spent to perform the task And this would just be poor writing. There's a reason why the DC and Marvel comics are so convoluted that both had been given "restarts" _several times over_ in the main runs. > I would extend this concept to Gods as well because they are NPCs. Well, no. The lore implications presented throughout GW1 and GW2 indicate that the gods' magic is their soul - that, unlike for mortals, the two are one and the same. Similarly, a god's death results in their magic being volatilely unleashed, and the need for said magic to be contained or it would run out of control and destroy things (as seen with both Abaddon and Balthazar). Those who contain said magic would effectly be consuming the former god's soul - hence why Kormir establishes that she has Abaddon's power and knowledge but "his will is broken"; similarly, Aurene firmly establishes that she somehow has knowledge from Balthazar that she otherwise shouldn't at the beginning of War Eternal, by citing Balthazar's scriptures and by explaining where in the Mists they are despite never being there before. And, again to pre-emptively deny you, I am not dictating the lore here. I am merely citing established lore dictated by the writers. And retconning established lore is just bad writing that few would enjoy. Even you. > @"Touchme.1097" said: > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > @"Touchme.1097" said: > > > **I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption** before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references. > > > The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body. > > > ... > > Do you have any relevant source of information about precise state of the commander's body to support your claims? > > > The answer to your question can be found watching the cinematic, I don't have to prove to you any more details as the cinematic speaks for itself. > Of course you can't see all the gore and violence the commander suffers in the cinematic, it's a PEGI 12 game, I have explained my point about this and I have been very clear. Ironic, since the cinematic doesn't at all establish anything you say, since the only thing the cinematic shows is a fireball to the face that deals the final blow. And the only _forced_ hits on the player throughout the fight is the skill The Judgment of War, which is a magic sword coming out of the ground (this is the same skill that downs the player in the Flashpoint climactic battle, and is also used in scripted moments during the final battle if you don't interrupt him with Aurene).

> @"Fenella.2634" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > The biggest one being: a body in good condition. > > > > Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such. > The Commander and Aurene didn't, either. One was burnt, the other impaled. > But we had very special circumstances that can't be easily done again, not by us and not by other characters. The Commander's body was in one piece. There might have been burns, but burns can be healed. Exploding is a different matter. If you replay the instance, the Commander's body is in solid condition when resurrecting (from being a corpse on the ground to floating up). Any injuries would be healed. If the Commander was a pile of ash as some people believe [because of this misleading item](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Urn_of_%22Heroic%22_Ashes), then the Commander wouldn't have been capable of resurrecting without a new body (like Shiro). As for Aurene, technically she never died. Her heart was pierced and she couldn't heal herself with Kralk's brand still imbedded, so it _seemed_ like death, but it was more of a comatose state. And even then, Vlast's body had literally exploded into a few dozen pieces. Trahearne's body seems similar given the final cinematic in HoT. These are very different from being stabbed and burned a bit.

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > Are you in charge to dictate the rules of resurrection or am I missing something? Obviously not, but resurrection has been in the lore for quite some time, and there are common threads seen. The biggest one being: a body in good condition. Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such. > @"Touchme.1097" said: > I am not talking about all the NPCs in the game, I am pointing my finger to the main NPCs who follow the commander in almost every story chapter, I have played all the available story PoF has to offer and I am currently playing LS2 and there are always Taimi, Caithe, Kasmeer, Marjory and Rox as female characters and Braham, Canach and Rytlock as male NPCs. I don't think you can include Caithe, Kasmeer, and Marjory in that list, and exclude Logan and Gorrik. Logan and Gorrik has been more involved since Season 4 than those three were. And in IBS, as Weindrasi said, there's Efram who's been a persistent ally as well (and Smodur and Crecia, to be fair).