LucianTheAngelic.7054

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion > > It's just not right to talk about "what's useful for PvP" when talking about the Espec as a whole and tradeoffs. > But say, fine we are talking only about PvP Renegade. > > I wouldn't say Orders are useless, neither would I count out Heroic Command. > Especially now that Incensed Response has been nerfed, Heroic Command is one of the few things left which will allow Renegade to instantly gain a good amount of Might in a single button press. > > If that's the case and we're discussing professions as a whole across all game modes then it should be moved to the "Professions" tab under "other" topics. But no, it was made specifically in the pvp forums so it should be assumed the focus is on pvp. I didn't say Orders are useless. I only said Bombardment was useless in PvP. My full quote was "None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them," so please don't put words into my mouth. Heroic Command isn't bad, but I don't think it's as good as Ancient Echo, especially when Vindication still exists. Bombardment as mentioned is trash in PvP and Orders from Above is fairly meh in PvP. I also don't think PvE tradeoffs are nearly as important since it's not a mode that is balanced for often anymore and there's tons of busted things that exist there already, very little of it having to do with "not having proper tradeoffs for elite specs." I also am of the mind that it's fine if Core isn't as good as the Elites.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > Renegade: > > 1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it. > > I'm inclined to disagree with this. > Orders from Above is the one defining part of Renegade which makes it still heavily lodged into the PvE meta. > If not for Renegade's ability to use this off CD and apply Alacrity to allies, Renegade would have fell through the floor from disuse long time ago. This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong: > > > > Herald: > > 1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait > > Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus. Please google "Herald Traits" on the GW2 Wiki. Here. I'll do it for you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_revenant_traits DRACONIC FORTITUDE (AKA THE 10% Health trait) **IS A MINOR MASTER TRAIT.** IT'S NOT PART OF THE "TRADEOFF TRAIT" AKA THE MINOR ADEPT TRAIT. Draconic Fortitude is literally just a regular trait. If you take a traitline that isn't Herald, you get a different Minor Master trait instead. You don't just "get 10% health just cuz." I'll say it a 4th time, it's literally just a regular trait, not part of the "tradeoff trait." Please stop spreading misinformation > > > 2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN. > > > > Renegade: > > 1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it. > > 2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added > > 3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already > > > > P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim > > Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP. > >  > > ??? You're objectively wrong because the things about Renegade that were/are an issue have literally nothing to do with F2/F3/F4 or Kalla's Fervor. It has everything to do with Kalla's Stance skills and the massive overbuffing of shortbow and then the overnerfing of everything else. The F2/F3/F4 aren't even really out of line with Ancient Echo, either, which is important when considering balance and tradeoffs. This isn't a case like Core Guardian vs. Firebrand where Firebrand has an additional 15 skills

Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong: Herald: 1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait 2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN. Renegade: 1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it. 2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added 3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

WvW needs more maps, not less. Sorry, more diversity of environments is ideal here. Removing the map would be a huge mistake

> @"Buran.3796" said: > For viper stats the build which probably works the best is Mallyx + Kalla, but with short bow as the main weapon. Mallyx + mace & axe is more suited for Herald spec + trailblazer Why do I always see you only recommend one or the other? Shortbow + Mace/Axe work better in tandem than they do just having one or the other. Mace/axe works fine on Mallyx/Kalla with viper gear as well. It’s ideal to have both

> @"Buran.3796" said: > I already use keyboard keys in my mouse ("alt" for the evade, "i", "l" and "o" for the #8, #9 and "select target"... But the mouse doesn't known when I swap a legend and as I said they have different functions in different order. ANet just should do their work. Absolutely agreed. There’s no reason for them to have ignored this issue (and so many other Rev issues) for so long. I’ve personally bug reported it at least 200+ times at this point (only once a day at most) over the past year. It’s insulting to the rev playerbase and to those of us that paid huge money for the absolute disaster that is build templates. I shouldn’t be forced to do extra work to enjoy the game as a Revenant simply because the code is bad

> @"DanielKingston.3947" said: > IIt's simply about WANTING to do WvW to EARN the Gift of Battle and HAVING TO PUT WITH this kind of toxicity in game, what should I do to avoid it, play by myself in a TEAM BASED mode with chat off? > Yes this is precisely what you should do. Team chat is only somewhat useful in WvW as it is. If you want true team based gameplay for WvW I advise you to join a WvW guild and communicate with them via their channels, whether those are in game or on discord. This is what most groups do anyway, so most of the “team coordination” isn’t happening on Team chat anyway. Also I doubt anyone is calling you out specifically in team chat. If they are then they’re kittens and you can hit block, just like any other game mode. PvP and PvE are far more toxic honestly

> @"Marko Welder.3547" said: > What are you babbling about lol?? > Ventari is THE steongest healing option in the game. Healing per second AND incredible burst healing. > Revenant has THE highest healing per cast in the game. And you want it buffed even more??? > Healing orbs themselves are super strong as you can generate tons of them to lay down there and be picked up when needed in between your heal casting for example to provide nice stream of healing instead of bursty one. They scale VERY good because they are aoe heals. > > Tablet being movable is amazing and I would NEVER want to see it changed. You are just bad at supporting. And people are bad at being supported. > -Moving Tablet allows me to send it to cleanse people far away from me in raids and PvP or PvE, > -It allows me to Heal people far away wothout having to move at all from my spot. So i can heal people without stopping to DPS at all, which means constant Healing Orbs generation. > -it makes your most broken skill the projectile dome Movable on its own. NO ONE HAS THAT. No class has it! I can put my dome in middle of passage willed with ground AOE conditions and protect my group. Things normaly people cant do. > Not to mention sending it to protect downed ally who is getting rezzed by teammate. > And IT HAS NO CD!! > Not only that but it counts as Healing Skill, procing all the "When Using Healing Skill" > Runes and effects like maniac. > Same goes for our Elite spell. > > - So you coming here to cry about bad healing is ridiculous. I guess time for necros to cry because their shroud depletes on its own 5% per sec. That must be buffed. OMG Lol... > - And RENEGADE has most broken healing spell in the game. Its 6, heals people around you for 30k.. THIRTY kitten THOUSANDS PER ONE CAST PER ONE PERSON. And on top of that it reduces condi damage taken while it lasts. And its almost free to use and stacks with Soulcleave which is another most broken thing. > - ive had warriors, rangers, thieves heal 7-10k hp per second on their own only with SoulCleave. > > - Revenant is THE most broken healer in all game modes right now, covering Everything a Healer could wish for, Renegade makes that even more OP. It needs a Nerf not buff. > > -You need to learn to heal. No class can press ONE buttton and deliver 11k AOE heal to whole group. And have s passive ticking Regen around tablet which stacks with SoothingMist and Regeneration. > > -Press heal the moment you see boss is about to hit a player and Than send your tablet to them. And it will heal the moment it arrives making it instant. > You want to dumb down the class so that people cant move Tablet?? And what than? Chase people around yourself to heal them? wow mate, I am impressed. Thats biggest nerf Revenant can get. You have mobile AOE heal you can deliver ANYWHERE but you want to nerf it. > > LEARN YOUR CLASS, Scourge Necros have learned to pre cast barriers at right time, to maximize their usage and they can only prevent so much, you still need to be healed. > Revenant getting barrier instead of heals would be another dumb thing as it would go to Waste. People have from 12 to 15k hp. Most of them. And you would be capped at 6 to 8k barriers because barriers cannot exceed 50%HP. Now why would I change Instant 11k heal for barrier? Explain yourself please. > You mannage Renegade Heal and Soulcleave and Ventari with Invocation for insane amount of healing and alacrity, 25might etc... And all with insane range that doesnt require you to even be there. > > * I dont even want to mention Staff skills which are BONUS on top of all of it. Providing INSANE bar break > * very good Hp/s heal because of orbs > * and if you dont utilize first Staff 4 and than ventari for conditions you are doing it wrong. > If you dont know to heal with thr strongest healing Output class in the game, because it requires some game awareness and skill, move to Tempest. Yeah no. While it is the strongest burst healing in the game and Renegade’s Soulcleave is insanely good, Support Rev (specifically ventari) isn’t the top pick in PvE because it lacks access to damage and CC mitigation tools (I.e. aegis and stability). Jalis is great for stability, but if you’re running Ventari/Kalla then you have to drop one of them to bring him. This is heal/support Rev’s biggest issue; it just doesn’t compete with Healbrand for the top spot since it can’t slot the level of mitigation that Healbrand can. Not taking damage is always superior to taking damage and then healing from it (and it’s not like HB is bad at actually healing, either). HealRev is arguably worse than Tempest, too, since Tempest has Rebound + 25 might/fury + great condi cleanse + consistent healing all for 10man. No one is crying about bad healing from Ventari. Obviously it’s a strong healer in terms of raw heals and the projectile block is great, but it does have some issues that hold it back from being top tier. The lack of damage mitigation outside of projectile destruction, its somewhat weak condi cleanse, and its somewhat clunky mechanics holds Ventari back considerably, especially in WvW and PvP. Ventari is fine in PvE but it’s still only the 3rd or 4th best option for a healer/support because of the above issues as well. I’m not sure how you can consider it “the most broken healer” in all game modes when it’s not being played by most people and none of the top tier players in Pve/pvp/wvw are running it.... > it makes your most broken skill the projectile dome Movable on its own. NO ONE HAS THAT. No class has it! I can put my dome in middle of passage willed with ground AOE conditions and protect my group Just to clarify, the projectile dome doesn’t protect from ground targeted AoEs. If you’re putting your dome in a “passage filled with ground AOE conditions” you’re not blocking any of those ground targeted AoEs. They’re still hitting your group. The dome only blocks actual projectiles.

> @"Za Shaloc.3908" said: > * Transform traits that alter (or completely change) the function of skills. Due to Rev's rather restrictive legend system and limited weapon repertoire, I think this would benefit the support potential a ton. Some ideas: > * Salvation trait: Mace 2 is converted to a water field that pulses heal/regen instead of pulsing damage/burning. Staff 4 has 2 charges > * Herald trait: Elemental Blast is converted to an AoE pulsing heal skill that cleanses/converts condis. Have Burst of Strength increasing incoming healing on affected targets. These are really great, fun, useful ideas. Would 10/10 be okay and happy with something like this > * More of a personal wish, but I'd like to see a wee bit of synergy within Corruption & Retribution to give them a touch bit more group support (ex: Fiendish Tenacity no longer grants resistance on swap but instead causes *all* resistance you apply to heal (meaning it heals allies, and Versed in Stone to apply AoE stab (with a 45s CD) on elite skill usage. Mallyx and Jalis are really great as-is IMO, but incentivizing taking Corruption for better support in Mallyx, for example, would be pretty cool for the core class). Hard disagree on Fiendish Tenacity for a couple of reasons: 1) it’s a solid trait for condi revs and is fairly vital to effective condi mitigation. I wouldn’t want Rev to lose that. 2) Mallyx doesn’t apply long enough duration Resistance to allies to make use of an extra regen effect, unless it was jacked up to insanely high healing levels, which it likely won’t be. So in essence you’d lose a bunch of self resistance for extremely minimal extra healing output for a support build that probably isn’t taking Mallyx anyway. Not a good trade off

I noticed a new fun interaction where it swaps correctly, but then two seconds later it switches utilities. I literally watched it happen in the build panel. Was weird and abnormal, perhaps caused by some sort of latency

> @"Elric.4713" said: >What I'd like to know is when are we going to get the audio for Coalescence of Ruin back? probably never

> @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > Hammer will be used until it is removed from the game : > > 1. Because it is the longest ranged Power based weapon. > > 2. Revenants have literally nothing else which can match it for its intended use of Ranged Power damage. > > > > Some people might go like "durr but Shortbow" but durrr Shortbow doesn't even come close to Hammer when it comes to zoning range and striking power for POWER damage. > > Disagree. In a train chain melee group, both mace and short bow are stronger, because mace is way faster and cleaves better, and shortbow with the piercing trait and brutality is way more effective than any cc from the hammer. And in a ranged group, chances are that you'll be running a Necro if you want AoE damage, not a hot garbage hammer Revenant. Also, if you're ganked while trying to reach your zerg and one of your weapons is a hammer, you're dead (even if ganked by an enemy healer; that kitten can't 1 v 1). Hammer is a joke at every game content (as much as it hurts: I started maining Guardian in 2012 with gs + hammer and swapped to Rev with hammer + sword & shield in HoT, and is depressing to look at the state of both hammers in both classes in 2020) . Hammer’s biggest plus is that it had two strong skills that hit 5 targets that don’t count as projectiles. Shortbow only has one and it’s not nearly as good as Phase Smash or CoR. The fact both those skills aren’t projectiles is important since projectile denial is prevalent in zergs which is one of the reasons Hammer Rev has been so prevalent in wvw zergs for so long instead of other long range power classes; its damage can’t be mitigated as easily by supports

> @"Smiter.3861" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > When you do get Herald or Renegade, swap out Retribution for one of those traitlines. Shiro is best in slot for high single target power damage for Rev, while Jalis and Mallyx are supportive options for power builds in some situations. Glint or Kalla would be your other go to legend in Herald or Renegade for power damage. > > Picked up the Berserker temple armor. Will be working on saving gold for my rings/trinkets. > Looking at switching out the Retribution line as you advised. Already have that, do you mean I should drop that and pick another line? Confused on that part. Thanks What I mean is Retribution is not ideal to do max dps for a powe build, so if you have renegade or Herald unlocked then swap retribution for one of those two traitlines. Most standard power build utilize devastation, invocation, and then either Herald or Renegade. I would only take Retribution for a core power build generally or unless you really need the sustain (which with Dance of Death and your other sustain options you really don’t)

> @"Smiter.3861" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > Both Renegade and Herald work for what you want to do. > > > > Bow is absolutely viable over hammer! Hammer was my favorite weapon for years, but after some changes it doesn't feel great to use anymore imo, so I tend to stay away from it. Shortbow on the otherhand just keeps getting easier and more fun to use with the last couple changes they've made to it. It's more of a condi weapon, but the power damage on it is high enough that you can use it on a power build and be fine. Plus it synergizes really well with Soulcleave (Kalla's Elite Skill) for massive fast lifesteal. I love shortbow and would likely slot it over hammer if I was running a power build for what you're doing > > Spent my points to train Renegade and was given the Exotic bow. Celestial, Grieving, Viper are the choices for traits. > I am guessing Viper would be a good choice option? Though Celestial looks good too with the stats. > > Ran my character to Orr last night. Have 700K worth of Karma saved.., so am thinking about getting the Berserker Temple Gear. > Ha... was much easier getting there on Raptor than the last time I hoofed it with my own feet 7 years ago. > Would there me another Karma set you would advise over this? > Thanks for sharing your experience. > > Grieving is closer to what you want for a power build, since it's pretty much slightly lower berserker stats with condi damage on top. Though any of those choices are fine til you get the berserker pieces anyway Karma is relatively worthless so gearing with it before getting ascended isn't a bad option. I haven't geared in exotics in years upon years, so not sure off the top of my head what the best options would be, but that one does sound good/ideal

> @"Smiter.3861" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > DO NOT BUY GEAR WITH LAURELS. IT'S A TOTAL WASTE. Much better to convert the Laurels into T4 or T6 materials instead (medium or heavy bags). It's super easy to get Ascended Gear in this game in a dozen different ways. Laurels are absolutely one of the worst and least cost effective ways to do that. Additionally, when it comes time for you to build Legendary Gear (if that's ever a goal you go for) having tons of Laurels can speed up that process for a piece of Legendary Equipment greatly. > > > > As for builds, Soldiers isn't great. If you want to do Power damage, then Berserker is your best friend for Revenant. It has the highest raw DPS output for power builds, which means you spend less time fighting. It is certainly more fragile, but both Herald and Renegade have plenty of ways to heal that it doesn't really matter how glassy you are in terms of armor. If you do feel you need slightly more sustain, Marauder is a worse secondary choice, but is generally fine for open world PvE and also performs well/better generally in WvW, but it's worse for Raids/Fractals, etc. For Runes, Scholar is best in slot for damage. For Sigils, Force and Air are ideal. > > > > Most of Power Rev's healing comes from Dance of Death, which is insanely strong (you're already taking that which is great). Also I wouldn't take Thrill of Combat (in Devastation). Take Notoriety or Assassin's Presence instead (Notoriety is better personal DPS than Assassin's Presence, Assassin's Presence boosts personal and group dps). > > > > For Invocation take Cleansing Channel instead of the DPS boost. Rev has little condi cleanse, so having that 1 condi removed on swap is helpful in Open World more than you might think. And for Invocation Middle you'll want Incensed Response, since it boosts your DPS a ton by giving you more Might. > > > > When you do get Herald or Renegade, swap out Retribution for one of those traitlines. Shiro is best in slot for high single target power damage for Rev, while Jalis and Mallyx are supportive options for power builds in some situations. Glint or Kalla would be your other go to legend in Herald or Renegade for power damage. > > Thanks.. made the build changes you advised. Will save my laurels. > Which would you advise for my play style, Renegade or Herald? > Is bow a viable option over hammer.. or situational specific? Both Renegade and Herald work for what you want to do. I think Herald is easier to play than Renegade, but Renegade generally is more rewarding once you get good with it. Both will pull similar amounts of damage for a Power build, with Renegade pulling ahead by a tiny, tiny bit. Personally I love both, so I think you should experiment and have fun with it. I use a Condi Renegade for most of my Open World PvE stuff, so I tend to lean towards Ren. If you do choose Ren, just remember your sustain comes from Soulcleave's Summit the most, while other sustain comes from Icerazor's Ire + your trait Dance of Death Bow is absolutely viable over hammer! Hammer was my favorite weapon for years, but after some changes it doesn't feel great to use anymore imo, so I tend to stay away from it. Shortbow on the otherhand just keeps getting easier and more fun to use with the last couple changes they've made to it. It's more of a condi weapon, but the power damage on it is high enough that you can use it on a power build and be fine. Plus it synergizes really well with Soulcleave (Kalla's Elite Skill) for massive fast lifesteal. I love shortbow and would likely slot it over hammer if I was running a power build for what you're doing

DO NOT BUY GEAR WITH LAURELS. IT'S A TOTAL WASTE. Much better to convert the Laurels into T4 or T6 materials instead (medium or heavy bags). It's super easy to get Ascended Gear in this game in a dozen different ways. Laurels are absolutely one of the worst and least cost effective ways to do that. Additionally, when it comes time for you to build Legendary Gear (if that's ever a goal you go for) having tons of Laurels can speed up that process for a piece of Legendary Equipment greatly. As for builds, Soldiers isn't great. If you want to do Power damage, then Berserker is your best friend for Revenant. It has the highest raw DPS output for power builds, which means you spend less time fighting. It is certainly more fragile, but both Herald and Renegade have plenty of ways to heal that it doesn't really matter how glassy you are in terms of armor. If you do feel you need slightly more sustain, Marauder is a worse secondary choice, but is generally fine for open world PvE and also performs well/better generally in WvW, but it's worse for Raids/Fractals, etc. For Runes, Scholar is best in slot for damage. For Sigils, Force and Air are ideal. Most of Power Rev's healing comes from Dance of Death, which is insanely strong (you're already taking that which is great). Also I wouldn't take Thrill of Combat (in Devastation). Take Notoriety or Assassin's Presence instead (Notoriety is better personal DPS than Assassin's Presence, Assassin's Presence boosts personal and group dps). For Invocation take Cleansing Channel instead of the DPS boost. Rev has little condi cleanse, so having that 1 condi removed on swap is helpful in Open World more than you might think. And for Invocation Middle you'll want Incensed Response, since it boosts your DPS a ton by giving you more Might. When you do get Herald or Renegade, swap out Retribution for one of those traitlines. Shiro is best in slot for high single target power damage for Rev, while Jalis and Mallyx are supportive options for power builds in some situations. Glint or Kalla would be your other go to legend in Herald or Renegade for power damage.

This is such a non-issue. The build is so hard-countered by condi transfer (and just regular condition cleanse) it's actually hilarious. Like for real, if you're having issues with Burn Guard play Condi Herald or Necromancer. Stand in their shit til you have 10+ stacks then transfer and bam, they're dead in less than 3 seconds. Easiest wins ever

If you want to stand a chance against condis with a Power Herald in WvW, then you need to be optimized to fight condis. If you don’t already have it, make sure to optimize your build against conditions: -Sigil of Cleansing -Sigil of Purity -Sigil of Generosity -Superior Runes of Resistance (or similar) -plus Vitality Armor (Marauder or mix w/ zerker) -Staff offhand -Condition Duration Reducing Food or Bowl of Spice Red Lentil Stew (remove condi on evade 10s ICD) You can even go further and add Mallyx and Corruption into the mix, but then you have to give up Glint or Shiro, which is rarely ideal. But the truth of the matter is: Power Rev sucks at dealing with conditions even when optimized against them. It always has. And some condi matchups are just bad for Power Rev almost always (I.e. condi mesmer). But you can make your life easier with more anti-condition stuff. And WvW has far better anti-condition stuff than PvP so use it. Use all of it if you have to.

> @"Opopanax.1803" said: > I saw a suggestion in another Rev thread that I thought was good: > > Remove weapon swap, and also remove weapon skill CDs. And then also fix existing weapons. > Do you want perma Unrelenting Assault? Because that’s how you get perma Unrelenting Assault. Everyone talks about revenant being limited in build choices but then people make suggestions like this which would further remove 5 skills per build. ?

> @"The Boz.2038" said: > The gamebreaking part is the "this one trait entirely makes redundant an entire skill and trait on its own". Except it doesn’t. Because Facet of Strength shares to up to 9 allies as well. This is something Incensed Response inherently cant’t do. Different skills have different usages. > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > Incensed Response *is already gutted in PvP* to the point where it’s not even always taken by all builds anymore. If it’s absolutely gamebreaking in WvW then they can extend the PvP nerfs to WvW, however they haven’t extended it over the past year+ since nearly all things are stronger in WvW and stats are higher as a whole, so this is largely unnecessary. Make sure if you guys are reading the wiki you click the appropriate game modes at the top of the page to see the splits. Everyone in this thread is talking like it doesn’t have a skill split. > > > > Incensed Response is absolutely fine in PvE. Self might is fine in PvE; nothing gamebreaking about it. > > It's just simply the fact that the interaction with Pulsing Fury = Might gain is just too much DPS loss if one doesn't pick Incensed Response instead of the other two traits. This is the nature of traits, though. Not all traits will be equally useful everywhere. > This alone causes another Herald skill, Facet of Strength, to be totally redundant when it comes to its core usage design of pulsing Might from it. It’s not redundant since it’s designed to Pulse might to up to 9 people, not be as good as Incensed Response + Fury for self might. Completely different purposes, even if similar > > **Note, this is assuming that the Herald, in whatever content, They nerfed it already in PvP which is the only game mode it was arguably overperforming in. Other classes like Chrono can get extemely high uptimes on even stronger boons like Quickness + 25 might in solo content so I’m unsure as to why Revenant should be penalized simply because it has a way to get 25 might. >is playing as a solo character, so that means that the usage of Facet of Strength as a Might sharing tool is not being discussed here, rather the fact that a single trait interaction makes Facet of Darkness straight up better than Facet of Strength.** You can’t simply ignore the fact that Facet of Strength shares up to 9 people. This is a major part of the core design of the skill. Of course Fury + Incensed Response is going to be better for solo usage since that’s the core design of Fury + IR; it doesn’t have any extra utility the way Facet of Strength does. > > My rant on how Anet decides to repeatedly nerf everything but Fury Pulse > Might interaction is a kneejerk reaction to how this continues to be a viable pick, even if it gets nerfed, because : > 1. Spirit Boon is just so weak when compared to the other two Master traits. Spirit Boon is better for any organized PvE content where you have guaranteed boons, such as raids and fractals. Better for heal revenants, too. Spirit Boon is also better on Condi Herald (and most Mallyx builds) in PvP and is an equal choice for Mallyx builds in WvW. > 2. Rapid Flow is pretty pointless on Herald which self pulses Swiftness, so even in PvP, Incensed Response will be a much better option ANYWAY. Incensed Response is really only optimal for Power Herald in PvP at this point. Rapid flow isn’t as useful on Herald, but that’s fine because not every spec needs each trait to be equally useful. Rapid Flow is optimal on Renegade in PvP/WvW and a viable option for Core Rev builds and PvE Solo Ren builds. My point of all this is: yes Incensed Response is strong. For Solo might in many situations it’s fantastic for Revenant and Herald (Herald can’t easily achieve 25 without it), but it’s definitely not always optimal. It depends entirely on the Build and content that is being played, even for Herald. For Renegade, Incensed Response is fairly redundant, though can be useful to have, however, it tends to be outperformed by other options. Balance is wholistic and has to take into account all applications of a skill. This is why Facet of Strength isn’t as good for solo might as IR is. Does Facet of Strength need a buff? Probably a bit, but this isn’t because Incensed Response is too good. It’s because Facet of Strength isn’t as strong as it should be for one of its core purposes; sharing might.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > I'm all for buffing Facet of Strength and just hardcore dumpstering Incensed Response. > > I personally use Incensed Response, and I feel like it's too much, especially when it interacts with Herald in the way it does. > Honestly, this is what makes Herald consistently high on the target list for nerfs, being able to self 25 Might in record time. > And Anet never nerfs the core problem : Fury giving Might and Herald pulsing Fury. > > I would change Incensed Response to instead grant a stack of 3% damage stacking up to 5 times upon inflicting a Critical Strike, and the buff lasting 10 seconds. > > Or if we don't wanna rob Core Rev of Might generation, move it to another traitline instead of pushing all the power into Invocation. > Give Retribution some love : Make Vicious Reprisal instead gain a few stacks of Might when yu gain Retaliation. > @"The Boz.2038" said: > Incensed is kind of insane, not gonna lie. No idea how to change it without gutting the PvE Herald. Incensed Response *is already gutted in PvP* to the point where it’s not even always taken by all builds anymore. If it’s absolutely gamebreaking in WvW then they can extend the PvP nerfs to WvW, however they haven’t extended it over the past year+ since nearly all things are stronger in WvW and stats are higher as a whole, so this is largely unnecessary. Make sure if you guys are reading the wiki you click the appropriate game modes at the top of the page to see the splits. Everyone in this thread is talking like it doesn’t have a skill split. Incensed Response is absolutely fine in PvE. Self might is fine in PvE; nothing gamebreaking about it.

The facets are meant to be shared to allies while also providing boon support for the self. Darkness is fine. It’s purely selfish might gain which is okay. It doesn’t spread better might to everyone else, which is what Facet of Strength is intended to do. Additionally in PvP Incensed Response is neutered so Darkness isn’t even that much stronger for passive might gain for self. Strength is generally fine in PvP and WvW, though could use longer duration might or a second stack in PvE. Strength is meant to give self might but more importantly share that might to up to 10 people. It really doesn’t need to provide more might for the self than Darkness + Incensed Response since that’s not its inherent purpose.

> @"Loules.8601" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Chaos.7614" said: > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > > If we were channel the Mists' memories of a ruling monarch, wouldn't make Sceptre more sense than Greatchunk? > > > > > > > > It's more in depth than most other Revenant Greatchunk threads (that I've read), but it still feels like nothing more than _a spec for the sake of the Greatchunk._ > > > > > > Maybe, but the idea of a scepter holding royal authority is too passive for a figure like Usoku. I'm also not the biggest fan of giving a class starved for skills a weapon that would only give 3 compared to 5. The only way I can see scepter working is if they introduce legend-specific effects on a scepter mainhand skills and retroactively apply that to offhands, since we only have 2 offhand weapons. > > > > Solution here is easy: give it scepter + focus. Spellbreaker already got mainhand and offhand dagger, which are technically different weapons, so it’s been done before > > > > > > > > The way I see it, greatsword is really the most favorable weapon to add not only in terms of practicality but in terms of popularity. From what I've seen, everyone who wants scepter for our next spec also wants a Ritualist spec, which is already done with Kalla. > > > > There are other aspects to Ritualist than just spirits. If Rev gets a Rit themed spec with Scepter + Focus I would hope that they dive into the Channeling magic/weapon spell aspect of Rit. > > > > Also there are other Non-Ritualist Legends that could use Scepter Focus that would be way more interesting. **Vizier Khilbron** immediately comes to mind > > We need greatsword more than anything - soldier class without one of the most loved weapon-types... > I think the two-handed sword is the one the type of weapon the Revenant community has been looking forward to the most since the class was released. So any spec with Greatsword will be better than anything. Aesthetics are subjective really. I don’t think a soldier class inherently needs Greatsword.

> @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > > > > > One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers > > > > > > > > > > > > **The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not. **This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns** > > > > > > There is nothing about elites that suggest your conclusion. > > > > Completely untrue and Anet doesn’t agree with you. **Anet LITERALLY states my conclusion. It’s not even my conclusion, it’s theirs.** > > > > > > > > Look at many of the classes that have multiple builds with core and the same type of builds with elites. There is no reason you can't have a viable core Condi class. > > > > This is completely class dependent. There is no hard or fast rule here. However **every class has gaps in their core builds, which is what elite specs are intended to address as Anet has said themselves on many occasions** > > > > > > > > Though your argument fails, in general its true that elites are more powerful. > > > > I’m going to state this a 4th time because you apparently didn’t understand it the first time I said it. **Anet’s stance on Elite Specs is that they are supposed to add new playstyles and help fill in gaps in the core classes.** > > > > This isn’t a matter of “my argument fails” (which it very literally doesn’t since it’s not even my argument) it’s a matter of “these are the design decisions that Anet themselves have chosen.” **I’m not sure how the creators of their own game can be wrong about the reasons why they make certain design decisions.** > > There is a complete disconnect with that vs core have a Second Condi Weapon that could be used on Core or Herald or any other Elite in the future. > > So, Renegade fails to add what is missing on core and herald concerning additional weapons. False. Renegade adds a ranged condi option and stronger options for condi damage, something that core is lacking. Herald adds additional boon support and defensive options, as well as additional ways to utilize Upkeep skills. Neither Herald nor Renegade fail in adding to the core class effectively. These are objectively true observations. > > You are free to be bold, caps, or repeat you line over and over about Anets claimed intent, you simple fail to show it with logic and evidence. Again, these are Anet’s statements NOT my own. **This is common knowledge since before Heart of Thorns released.** it’s as if you don’t even read my words since you keep arguing with me telling me my argument doesn’t make sense, **when it’s not even my argument; it’s the developer’s.** You want evidence? Here’s some evidence for you. The Heart of Thorns Elite Specialization Release page. https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/specializations/ Tempest: “With the design of this elite specialization we’re aiming to add a more direct frontline support option (for elementalist) that rewards precise positioning.” Dragonhunter: “ **When we set out on the search for the guardian's elite specialization, we looked for areas in which the guardian lacked a solid role.** It turns out that wielding light and virtue as power sources is actually somewhat difficult to do, and **a guardian's abilities are fairly short range** or unconventional in their application. **We thought about how the guardian might handle long-range combat** and supporting allies while fighting on the back lines.” These are fairly easy to find quotes, however, they’ve commented on this in a much deeper way through video and text interviews. I don’t feel like further digging through 6 years worth of interviews to find more of their statements. Their intention that Elite Specs are supposed to expand upon core specs and fill in gaps/expand playstyles is clear through their statements. As mentioned this is common knowledge. Now some of the evidence is directly in front of your face. **You can choose to disregard it if you want since it doesn’t fit your worldview, but it’s still irrelevant because Anet has been explicitly clear with their intentions for elite specs for 6+ years.**