LucianTheAngelic.7054

> @"wilku.9764" said: > I'm afraid to ask, becasue clearly it's an old post and everybody has it figured out and is so smart here, but let me try anyway: > > Should I see Forceful Persistence icon appear along other effects? Like Hardening Persistence or Steadfast Rejuvenation? > Because when I activate any number of Facets, I can't get the Forceful Persistence to show up, nor to influence the stats shown on any of the atacks I have. > At the same time both Hardening Persistence and Steadfast Rejuvenation appear, along with the number of stacks. > > Or is this Forceful Persistence working with all skills BUT Facets? then what are Herald's upkeep skills? > > I wish one day this game was not all about wiki and forums, but the actual well-described-in-game gameplay... Forceful Persistence doesn’t have an icon for the buff bar. If you want to test the damage increase for yourself you can go to the training golem in the Aerodrome, give yourself the basic raid buffs like quickness/might/fury and do auto attack tests on the golem with and without any facets active. Unless there is a bug you’ll get higher numbers with facets active.

Cleansing channel, Vindication, Charged Mists, and Pact of Pain are all better for solo PvE.

I chuckled at “call to anguish to 180.” It was 240 before and got buffed because it couldn’t group anything up the way it was supposed to ?. Sure let’s nerf it to 180 and make it completely and utterly useless Edit: Invoke Torment also already casts 1 second after legend swap

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > My bet is on something obscure that fills weird criteria again like Kalla honestly > > For all we know, Arenanet may even choose a character whose lore isn't even available in any medium so far and is only going to be introduced in some hidden writings that isn't part of the EoD story. > I just hope they won't introduce an Oni legend that is full of Stealth and teleport skills. > > Yeah exactly these discussions are somewhat pointless in that regard. I don't think anyone in the community saw Kalla coming. The closest "request" was "Pyre Fierceshot," but even that that was fairly niche and not a widespread desire

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > Or if anything, move Spirit Boon from Master to Adept tier, swapping with Glaring Resolve. > Spirit Boon on Master is just a dead slot which is used only if the other two options are unviable, which in 80% of builds, are always picked cos they are stronger than Spirit Boon. > > **TLDR : Spirit Boon's pick rate as a Master tier trait is nearly 0 because of how inherently weak it is, in all content.** > That's so incredibly untrue. Spirit Boon is the top choice in that tier for ANY healing build for Rev IF it's taking Invocation. It's also used on ALL DPS variants in Raids/Fractals. Lastly, it's a competitive (if not best) choice for Condi builds in WvW/PvP, especially since Incensed Response is "meh" at best now in those modes. https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/herald/boon/ https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/condition/ https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/alacrity/ https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Revenant_-_Core_Mallyx https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Frontline https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Ventari_Healer_-_(WvW) Also Spirit Boon gives **10s of Regen** at 96% Boon Duration. Glint gives **8s of Regen** at 96% boon duration **per pulse** for 10 targets. That's 21-29s of Regen from Glint alone per legend swap depending on if you stay in the legend for 10s or 12s. There should be no downtime (or very little) on Regen from a Healer Herald. Even if Ventari was given some sort of "lasting regen" for when you swap to a different legend this would literally only be a buff for Renegade support (core healer by design really will never happen as it's always going to be inferior to Herald and Ren), since Heal Herald already can pump out tons of regen as it is (and if you're taking Herald for support you're almost certainly taking Glint for the 10 man boons). I'm not opposed to buffing EoE though. Shield as a whole needs more as a defensive healing weapon. Crystal Hibernation should have a pulsing *something* for teammates around it too

> @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > Heck, in a Canthan-themed expansion, there might be multiple elite specialisations based around bringing a bit of ritualism into existing professions. We've had fire magic warrior and antimagic warrior... what about a spirit warrior infusing spirits into their weapons and those of their allies? Why not? It'd be an interesting way to make a support warrior that isn't just about planting a banner or two or resorting to W/Mo themes (which is the guardian's playspace, especially support firebrands). Or a mesmer whose phantasms are actual ghosts? That could have some legs - I'm not sure just which aspect of the ritualist it would actually borrow, but at this point I'm largely brainstorming. Point is, there are more imaginative things that can be done with ritualist themes than just piling them onto revenant... and MUCH more imaginative things that can be done with the revenant rather than pushing it into the corner of being a refuge for disenfranchised ritualist players. > > > > I mean this is what will most likely happen. However, should be noted that spreading out Ritualist themes across multiple professions SHOULDN'T preclude Rev from being able to get a "Master Togo/Razah/other" ritualist themed legend. It's perfectly viable to give Rev a Rit type legend and also give Necro et. all other things as well. It baffles me the conversation has to constantly be about "only one or the other" or "rev just couldn't/shouldn't have a rit legend ever" when there are other options > > > > > > That's just the thing. There are other options. If you think Togo or Razah are significant enough and distinctive enough to count, there are _tons_ of other options for revenant legends. And how many more expansions do we really, realistically, expect to come? > > Kalla already brings the spirits, keeping in mind that when it was made, they were still uncertain that the story would ever go to Cantha, so we got a ritualist-esque legend (at least in terms of mechanics) then instead of waiting for a return to Cantha that might never come. Never is a long time, but a second ritualist-esque elite specialisation in a row is wasting the opportunity for revenant to do something that _isn't_ copying a GW1 profession. > > Remember, other professions, ritualist included, need to remain within the bounds of mortal magic. Ritualist is, ultimately, mortal magic. Revenant is ArenaNet's opportunity to pull out the really crazy stuff that can't fit anywhere else. What other profession would be able to generate a mini-Jade Wind, or a perform a short-term Rite of the Great Dwarf, or embody the six aspects of Glint's lair? Okay, an elementalist might be able to temporarily turn their allies to stone, but echoes of this sort of magic would normally be well outside what you'd find in a profession. Conversely, what other profession could incorporate a bit of ritualist magic into their teachings? _All of them._ > > Renegade is already a pretty big nod to the thing that most people _primarily_ associate with ritualists. Anything else... could probably be better done on another profession, leaving room for revenant to get something which would _only_ work on revenant. That assumes that Anet will actually try to explore more of those avenues though. And after Kalla I have no idea what they'll pick for Legend #3. While Togo/Razah/other are one of my top choices, I'd much rather a Vizier Khilbron (my top choice and would fit into what you're talking about), but I doubt Anet will pick that. My bet is on something obscure that fills weird criteria again like Kalla honestly

> @"draxynnic.3719" said: > Heck, in a Canthan-themed expansion, there might be multiple elite specialisations based around bringing a bit of ritualism into existing professions. We've had fire magic warrior and antimagic warrior... what about a spirit warrior infusing spirits into their weapons and those of their allies? Why not? It'd be an interesting way to make a support warrior that isn't just about planting a banner or two or resorting to W/Mo themes (which is the guardian's playspace, especially support firebrands). Or a mesmer whose phantasms are actual ghosts? That could have some legs - I'm not sure just which aspect of the ritualist it would actually borrow, but at this point I'm largely brainstorming. Point is, there are more imaginative things that can be done with ritualist themes than just piling them onto revenant... and MUCH more imaginative things that can be done with the revenant rather than pushing it into the corner of being a refuge for disenfranchised ritualist players. I mean this is what will most likely happen. However, should be noted that spreading out Ritualist themes across multiple professions SHOULDN'T preclude Rev from being able to get a "Master Togo/Razah/other" ritualist themed legend. It's perfectly viable to give Rev a Rit type legend and also give Necro et. all other things as well. It baffles me the conversation has to constantly be about "only one or the other" or "rev just couldn't/shouldn't have a rit legend ever" when there are other options

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it. > > But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits. > > Amen. Everyone forgets the Channeling Magic aspect which was mostly raw damage or the skill Spirit's Strength, which lead to some builds that didn't use a single spirit at all and combined itself with a melee damage dealer secondary profession, like Assassin or Dervish. People forget that just because a lot of PvE builds used a ton of spirits to solo the Underworld or other content by abusing mob attack priority doesn't mean that Spirits were the ONLY, or even main, thing they offered Funnily enough, Master Togo only utilizes 2 spirit skills in the Bonus Mission Pack where you control him. The rest is Channeling Magic, Restoration Magic, or his unique "Dragon Empire Rage" skill. In the regular main story Factions missions Togo only uses 1 spirit with the rest again being Channeling, Restoration, or weapon spell type magic. So if Togo was to be the next Rev elite, then it's likely the elite's skills would have few, if any, spirits involved at all. His skill bar from GW1's missions can be found here: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_Togo

it's one of several Rev utilities bugs that got introduced with Build Templates. I report this or the "utilities swapping places" bug when it happens to me, up to one time per day. No fixes yet. I've reported it at least 200+ times. Don't hold your hopes up for a fix anytime soon; it's already been 1.25 years

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > > I don't like your vision of how the game should be. > > > > > > > > > > Except it's not my vision; I'm not developing the game. The game is based on what Anet thinks it should be and there is over 8 years of game history that suggests Anet doesn’t buff classes so they ‘compete’ in PvE.... > > > > > > > > >OK ... but I can assure you they don't make class changes based on 'PVE competing'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s completely false and provably untrue. > > > > > > OK... then prove it. I see LOTS of changes happening that DON'T result in the game converging on class performance balance for 8 years now. If I'm wrong ... where are all these builds that allow all classes to perform equivalent to each other to compete for meta spots in PVE? > > > > > > See, I don't care what Anet tells me ... I care about what they ACTUALLY do in the game ... and nothing there should indicate that Anet is making changes to classes so they all compete for meta ... because they don't yet ... it doesn't take dozens of patches and 8 years to accomplish such a thing. The game doesn't require it either ... it's already designed to accommodate the wide range of performance. We don't even have a situation where all CLASSES have competitive meta builds so forget about especs. > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-12-11#Mesmer > > > > “ In this update, we've made changes to Signet of Inspiration and Mimic—two core skills in the current skill rotation **for chronomancers in raids.** These are fairly significant changes with slightly different purposes, although both have been made to address the issue of stacking power multipliers..... > > > > However, the power these two skills allowed chronomancers made them a one-stop shop for every boon in the game, **which was crowding out other potential roles in raid compositions.”** > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-02-06#Revenant > > > > **“Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts.”** > > > > There are dozens upon dozens of more examples throughout the past 8 years that can be found. These are not only words of theirs explaining their intentions, but also **action** Anet took in the form of direct changes, buffs and nerfs, in an attempt to bring classes closer into line with each other. > > > > No one said “Equivalent” don’t put words in my mouth or in Anet’s. What I did say was “I don’t think classes need to be perfectly in line with each other, but they should be similar and at the very least decent picks” as stated by one of my previous posts. Note the word similar, it means “resembling without being identical.” > > > > >How come after dozens of balance patches over 8 years, we have NOTHING that looks like what you are talking about? > > > > We actually almost do at the moment. Almost every elite spec has at least one build that benches between 36-39k or have a strong support build that lets them be useful for things besides damage. There are some outliers (I.e. Herald) but those can be fixed over time. Which is what this thread is about... > > > > The main issue as I stated in my last post is the slow balance and (lately) the lack of focus on PvE balance (for about 1 year). To say Anet doesn’t want classes to be able to compete with each other is still incorrect as the posts above prove. They’ve time and again provided intention and action leading in the direction of class diversity and similarity in terms of performance. > > > > >, this isn't some imaginary vision I'm having ... you see it if you have your eyes open. > > > > Mine are quite open considering it took about two seconds for me to find the information needed to debunk your claims > > OK so Anet made a bunch of changes ... and we STILL don't have these competitive PVE classes after 8 years. So really, what you are providing here is proof of what I'm saying is _true_. > > No claim I have made is debunked because no changes Anet has made over the last 8 years has resulted in a convergence of all classes being competitive for PVE team spots. Sure, Jan. You literally claimed Anet doesn't balance for classes to compete in PvE. As the previous patch notes I posted show they clearly have that as their intention and they do put forth action towards making that happen. Just because we don't have perfect balance doesn't mean they don't balance towards that goal or put in action towards that goal. Resource allocation is important and if they had infinite funding I'm sure, based on their previous history, that we would have a much more convergent balance than we have now (and we still have probably the best and most convergent balance we've ever had right at this moment). >Until that happens, I'm not wrong. If Anet was targeting classes to have some range of reasonable performance, we would either have it now ... or we do have it and you aren't willing to recognize the range is appropriate. Neither of us can know "if the range is appropriate" or not based on Anet's standards. However, we can make our own judgments based on the current range. Herald getting 31/32k dps while also not being nearly as solid a support as most other support options to me is a problem. Also this can be chalked up to, as mentioned, Anet not having the resource allocation for being able to achieve their intended perfect balance. That's another thing we as posters can't know definitively, but as mentioned is an important variable to remember (and evidence does show that they don't have a huge resource allocation for balance). > > See the funny part here is that this is all kind of irrelevant ... because what I said is still true: Herald isn't going to get team spots where they are current refused unless they have a buff that's make them meta ... because not being meta is the reason they are being refused to begin with. Yes and No. Reaper is now hitting 34.5k, which is *almost* in that "36-39k" threshold I mentioned in my last post. Guess what is now being more accepted in a larger amount of groups? Reaper. Sure, the top tier speedrun types still aren't bringing reaper, but a whole lot more reapers are not getting insta kicked from fractals and raids in above average groups. This is the target the game should be shooting for.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > I don't like your vision of how the game should be. > > > > > > Except it's not my vision; I'm not developing the game. The game is based on what Anet thinks it should be and there is over 8 years of game history that suggests Anet doesn’t buff classes so they ‘compete’ in PvE.... > > > > >OK ... but I can assure you they don't make class changes based on 'PVE competing'. > > > > > > > That’s completely false and provably untrue. > > OK... then prove it. I see LOTS of changes happening that DON'T result in the game converging on class performance balance for 8 years now. If I'm wrong ... where are all these builds that allow all classes to perform equivalent to each other to compete for meta spots in PVE? > > See, I don't care what Anet tells me ... I care about what they ACTUALLY do in the game ... and nothing there should indicate that Anet is making changes to classes so they all compete for meta ... because they don't yet ... it doesn't take dozens of patches and 8 years to accomplish such a thing. The game doesn't require it either ... it's already designed to accommodate the wide range of performance. We don't even have a situation where all CLASSES have competitive meta builds so forget about especs. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-12-11#Mesmer “ In this update, we've made changes to Signet of Inspiration and Mimic—two core skills in the current skill rotation **for chronomancers in raids.** These are fairly significant changes with slightly different purposes, although both have been made to address the issue of stacking power multipliers..... However, the power these two skills allowed chronomancers made them a one-stop shop for every boon in the game, **which was crowding out other potential roles in raid compositions.”** https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-02-06#Revenant **“Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts.”** There are dozens upon dozens of more examples throughout the past 8 years that can be found. These are not only words of theirs explaining their intentions, but also **action** Anet took in the form of direct changes, buffs and nerfs, in an attempt to bring classes closer into line with each other. No one said “Equivalent” don’t put words in my mouth or in Anet’s. What I did say was “I don’t think classes need to be perfectly in line with each other, but they should be similar and at the very least decent picks” as stated by one of my previous posts. Note the word similar, it means “resembling without being identical.” >How come after dozens of balance patches over 8 years, we have NOTHING that looks like what you are talking about? We actually almost do at the moment. Almost every elite spec has at least one build that benches between 36-39k or have a strong support build that lets them be useful for things besides damage. There are some outliers (I.e. Herald) but those can be fixed over time. Which is what this thread is about... The main issue as I stated in my last post is the slow balance and (lately) the lack of focus on PvE balance (for about 1 year). To say Anet doesn’t want classes to be able to compete with each other is still incorrect as the posts above prove. They’ve time and again provided intention and action leading in the direction of class diversity and similarity in terms of performance. >, this isn't some imaginary vision I'm having ... you see it if you have your eyes open. Mine are quite open considering it took about two seconds for me to find the information needed to debunk your claims

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > I don't like your vision of how the game should be. > > Except it's not my vision; I'm not developing the game. The game is based on what Anet thinks it should be and there is over 8 years of game history that suggests Anet doesn’t buff classes so they ‘compete’ in PvE.... >OK ... but I can assure you they don't make class changes based on 'PVE competing'. > That’s completely false and provably untrue. They’ve literally said in many, *many* patch notes over the past 8 years “ X class is being toned down because it’s over performing in PvE” or “X class is being buffed because it’s underperforming in PvE.” Clearly Anet believes classes should be able to compete with each other to provide higher diversity. If they didn’t, we’d still be stuck with the old only Chrono/Tempest meta If you had said “Anet hasn’t balanced for PvE in the past year” then I’d agree because that’s largely true, since the level of attention from Anet for PvE balance has gone wayyy down since IBS. However, saying “Anet doesn’t care if specs can compete with each other in PvE” is patently false due to their history of balance choices and explanations.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed here. Herald struggles to 'compete' with it's Renegade cousin in PVE? There isn't a requirement it needs to. Especs are a thematic deviation to give variety in play. It's not necessary that all especs are viable in every game mode, especially if that isn't their intent. > > > > > > > > > > > > herald struggles to compete with every other spec in the game in PvE. Heralds arent even able to be taken into raid in most groups due to be seen as a joke, even though its not the worst class > > > > > > > > > > Except classes DON'T compete in PVE. Herald getting a raid group is a function of how you play, not how the class works. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, don't even GO to the place where you argue Herald isn't meta so it needs a buff ... because that's a non-starter. > > > > > > > > its not like talking about meta or something. > > > > > > Well, you are. You just don't realize it. > > > > > > > but if players enjoy playing herald (NOT RENEGADE) ,and wanna go into other pve stuff ,like raid ,fractals, strikes ,DRMS or whatsoever and arent simply taken into a group cuz of playing "herald" ,which is still counted as a joke by a big part of the community due to the lack of *look below*, then its a problem,no? > > > > > > And you have convinced yourself that Anet buffing Herald but NOT making Herald meta will fix that? because you realize those teams didn't take Herald in the first place because they aren't meta right? I mean, it might be a problem for SOME people but it's a problem they can't fix themselves. > > > > > > > Its struggeling to compete with other classes in player-limited pve content. > > > > > > And it will continue to do so as long as it's not meta ... so yes, we ARE talking about buffing it to be meta. And no, that doesn't need to happen because being meta isn't a requirement for anyone except the metapusher ... and we DON'T want this game to cater to that kind of thinking. > > > > Currently, Herald doesn’t even surpass its own cousin, the Renegade, at really anything, which is an issue. > > Again, that's not an issue. Nothing should give people the idea that an espec is designed to 'surpass' other especs for anything; especs are implemented as thematic variations. There is no requirement for 'surpassing' and the game isn't designed in a way that should give you the impression it is. Whatever disparity exists does NOT prevent anyone from choosing and playing how they want and being successful. Where is the Anet quote that says they're supposed to be "Thematic Variations?" I haven't seen one. That's just conjecture on your part. However, what Anet HAS stated about Elite Specs is that they're supposed to fill in missing parts of the class AND add different playstyles. What void does Herald fill that Renegade doesn't for PvE? 10 player boons? Fury + Swiftness generation? Again, the fact of the matter is it doesn't do anything notable better than Renegade. And ofc people can play whatever and make it work; that's never been the issue. I frequently play Herald in Fracs/Raids and still get better dps than many, many pugs. The player skill level is, as Anet has discussed at length in the past, relatively poor across the board with the best players doing 10-20x more damage than the worst. That's still the case even with "bad" builds like Herald. You can say these things aren't an issue, but if I claim they are an issue who is right in that regard? It's completely a matter of perspective and opinion so I'm afraid we won't agree on this. I don't like your vision of how the game should be.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed here. Herald struggles to 'compete' with it's Renegade cousin in PVE? There isn't a requirement it needs to. Especs are a thematic deviation to give variety in play. It's not necessary that all especs are viable in every game mode, especially if that isn't their intent. > > > > > > > > herald struggles to compete with every other spec in the game in PvE. Heralds arent even able to be taken into raid in most groups due to be seen as a joke, even though its not the worst class > > > > > > Except classes DON'T compete in PVE. Herald getting a raid group is a function of how you play, not how the class works. > > > > > > I mean, don't even GO to the place where you argue Herald isn't meta so it needs a buff ... because that's a non-starter. > > > > its not like talking about meta or something. > > Well, you are. You just don't realize it. > > > but if players enjoy playing herald (NOT RENEGADE) ,and wanna go into other pve stuff ,like raid ,fractals, strikes ,DRMS or whatsoever and arent simply taken into a group cuz of playing "herald" ,which is still counted as a joke by a big part of the community due to the lack of *look below*, then its a problem,no? > > And you have convinced yourself that Anet buffing Herald but NOT making Herald meta will fix that? because you realize those teams didn't take Herald in the first place because they aren't meta right? I mean, it might be a problem for SOME people but it's a problem they can't fix themselves. > > > Its struggeling to compete with other classes in player-limited pve content. > > And it will continue to do so as long as it's not meta ... so yes, we ARE talking about buffing it to be meta. And no, that doesn't need to happen because being meta isn't a requirement for anyone except the metapusher ... and we DON'T want this game to cater to that kind of thinking. Currently, Herald doesn’t even surpass its own cousin, the Renegade, at really anything, which is an issue. Elite specs are supposed to fill niches and add playstyles, but what Herald adds is minimal (For PvE). Ren beats it in condi, power, and support/utility. I don’t think virdo or anyone else is asking for it to be meta, but instead acknowledging the very real truth that Herald doesn’t compete with Ren (and almost any other spec in the game) really at all *for the games current power level.* When almost every power DPS build has a 37-38k benchmark and Ren can only bench 34 (which is better than Herald) there is a disparity that should be addressed. I don’t think classes need to be perfectly in line with each other, but they should be similar and at the very least decent picks. If Herald isn’t buffed, then other classes should be brought down to be more in line.

This is 10000% a user skill issue. The skill is fine. If you want to aim it a certain direction then learn to position your character properly first before casting it. If it became a ground target type skill it would become awkward as all hell to use HARD NO from me

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > Maaaybe if you talk strictly about pve. But I don't. > > > > > > > > That's great and all, but Virdo was speaking about PvE if you read closely > > > > > > You dropped 90% of the post you've quoted tho. > > > > My original comment was directed at your comment towards Virdo which was discussing PvE Herald. I’m not really interested in engaging with anything else in this conversation > > Yes and that comment was a missed answer seeing how I was writing about revenant class with its ability to have a "reserved slot" in pve squads and somehow you felt the need to correct me "it's about herald not revenant". The part you've cut out from later post was also talking about what I've wrote before. That Revenant as a class already has it and every espec doesn't need to do the same thing, because especs aren't seperate classes. So not sure what the point was tbh, but it wasn't really an answer to what I said in the first place. That comment wasn’t a missed answer, we just have different ways of seeing elite specs and balance. Your other post made it clear we won’t see eye to eye on this issue ever. I think all elite specs should be viable (not meaning optimal here) within a certain range of each other in PvE. You don’t see it as an issue and don’t believe specs need to be viable in all modes (per your own words). So there’s no use talking further about this. The fact is though that Herald lags behind almost every other spec in PvE (which is an objective fact) and something should be done to address that. The fact you don’t see that as an issue and I do means we won’t agree.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > Maaaybe if you talk strictly about pve. But I don't. > > > > That's great and all, but Virdo was speaking about PvE if you read closely > > You dropped 90% of the post you've quoted tho. My original comment was directed at your comment towards Virdo which was discussing PvE Herald. I’m not really interested in engaging with anything else in this conversation

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > > > > > > > Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really *gear up* for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Short bow's damage in the auto attack is fairly balanced between power and condi, so if you go viper you take full advantage of increasing both sources of damage, but in the other skills favours condition damage, so if you plan to mix them a lot the difference in damage between full viper and full trailblazer is ~10%, so is not that large. Condi Renegades usually run 2,2,2 in the Renegade traitline to maximize bleeds and cleave thrugh arrow piercing, which means that you won't have the protection from All for One, and your HP and armor will be base, with Darkrazor's Daring summon as the main defiance bar breaker and Soulcleave's Summit and Devastation 3,3,3 (Battle Scars) as the main sustain tools (works best with burst as Sevenshots). Trailblazer provides a huge amount of survability boosting both armor and HP. Usually a full viper Renegade will aim for runes of the Nigthmare because the shortbow mixes bleeds, torment and burns as sources of damage. > > > > > > > > Condi Herald and power Renegade do work entirely different: condi Herald uses torment runes to both increase damage and gain life, because mace and axe do mainly torment or burn damage and Embrace the Darkness adds more torment. The weapon and legend/trait selection is tankier (Shield, Infuse Light, Facet of Chaos... ), so the gameplan is usually facetank at mele range engulfing everything in torment. Power Renegade has perma protection under Kalla and even more damage mitigation with Jalis (plus stability: a rare avis in the realm of the Revenant) so, again, doesn't reach the same damage as a viper build, but still has a powerfull punch while having huge damage mitigation (and the same sustain/life drain abilities). > > > > > > > > They play different. For team PvE content viper is optimal (assuming others provide support). For soloing champs an bounties the other two work better (a lot of bounties are soloable with them, and most should die easily if two players run those builds vs them). > > > > > > Nice explanation! Thank you! :smile: > > > > > > This build is mostly for Open world PvE, so something to plow through the story without too many difficulties (i know HoT can be hard sometime, especially with weak builds), and open world bosses, stuff, champions, PoF bounties etc. I don't even plan on going full ascended on it, i'll stick to exotic for now (have other projects that need doing first like light legge armor, can't waste money haha). > > > > > > I like the idea of Viper's, but if Trailblazer's is just as good, i'll probably stick to that, i already run Trailblazer's on my Mirage, it's awesome! > > > I doubt i'll have boons, as my friend plays Berserker, so again, either condi or power DPS build. > > > Unless i provide support but idk, is that really needed in open world content? > > > > > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > > > I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build. > > > > > > > > for any damage-build renegade should be chosen over herald. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! :) > > > So far i'm thinking Renegade. > > > Now to just choose either Viper's or Trailblazer's. :smile: > > > I might choose Viper's though for that shortbow autoattack, to deal with trash mobs easier haha, just for a joke. > > > Also, i mainly play tanky support builds, so maybe a glass cannon would be fun! > > > > Viper’s will make you a better player. Choose vipers. Soulcleave is honestly strong enough sustain that you should have no issue with 99% of PvE content (even when solo) in viper gear on renegade if you know what you’re doing and play well. Take a mace and an axe in addition to the shortbow as they work best in tandem with each other. > > > > And please please please don’t run Devastation for Battle Scars unless you really, really feel you need the sustain. While it does add survivability, you lose a bunch of damage and utility. Invocation is a better traitline that gives you more access to fury, might, +condi/power damage, the option to run Cleansing Channel, and ofc Charged Mists, which is one of the best traits for any Renegade since you can get an extra 25 energy every swap which directly increases your damage and potential sustain > > Already switched to viper's. :smile: Have a bunch of Warlord armor boxes from WvW saved up, bought some viper's recipes from WvW vendors and TP and made myself a mace and an axe. I think i also have huntsman high enough on another character, i'll make a bow when i need it, for now i have a random berserker's hammer for range, until i get enough hero points for renegade. > > And i know i can buy HP's from WvW, and i have enough currency for it, but i want the leveling experience for it, so i wanna get HPs naturally. We're not even to HoT yet, it'll pick up speed when we go there, HPs there give more points. > > This is what i'm thinking for when i get renegade: > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeJlxQIMPKi1RSMOCiRSgMCSgjuk36H-zRRYBREYGN8jg1B-e > > In the meantime, Corruption and Devastation traitlines are the same, but i run Invocation(2,3,1) as a third one. > > Also, until i get some tokes for Nightmare runes, i'm using Lich runes. My only advice would be to try to learn how to use Charged Mists in Invocation instead of Song of the Mists. For PvE, it really is the superior trait for non-Herald builds and will make you a much better revenant if you learn how to use it well

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > Maaaybe if you talk strictly about pve. But I don't. That's great and all, but Virdo was speaking about PvE if you read closely

> @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > > > Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really *gear up* for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile: > > > > > > > Short bow's damage in the auto attack is fairly balanced between power and condi, so if you go viper you take full advantage of increasing both sources of damage, but in the other skills favours condition damage, so if you plan to mix them a lot the difference in damage between full viper and full trailblazer is ~10%, so is not that large. Condi Renegades usually run 2,2,2 in the Renegade traitline to maximize bleeds and cleave thrugh arrow piercing, which means that you won't have the protection from All for One, and your HP and armor will be base, with Darkrazor's Daring summon as the main defiance bar breaker and Soulcleave's Summit and Devastation 3,3,3 (Battle Scars) as the main sustain tools (works best with burst as Sevenshots). Trailblazer provides a huge amount of survability boosting both armor and HP. Usually a full viper Renegade will aim for runes of the Nigthmare because the shortbow mixes bleeds, torment and burns as sources of damage. > > > > Condi Herald and power Renegade do work entirely different: condi Herald uses torment runes to both increase damage and gain life, because mace and axe do mainly torment or burn damage and Embrace the Darkness adds more torment. The weapon and legend/trait selection is tankier (Shield, Infuse Light, Facet of Chaos... ), so the gameplan is usually facetank at mele range engulfing everything in torment. Power Renegade has perma protection under Kalla and even more damage mitigation with Jalis (plus stability: a rare avis in the realm of the Revenant) so, again, doesn't reach the same damage as a viper build, but still has a powerfull punch while having huge damage mitigation (and the same sustain/life drain abilities). > > > > They play different. For team PvE content viper is optimal (assuming others provide support). For soloing champs an bounties the other two work better (a lot of bounties are soloable with them, and most should die easily if two players run those builds vs them). > > Nice explanation! Thank you! :smile: > > This build is mostly for Open world PvE, so something to plow through the story without too many difficulties (i know HoT can be hard sometime, especially with weak builds), and open world bosses, stuff, champions, PoF bounties etc. I don't even plan on going full ascended on it, i'll stick to exotic for now (have other projects that need doing first like light legge armor, can't waste money haha). > > I like the idea of Viper's, but if Trailblazer's is just as good, i'll probably stick to that, i already run Trailblazer's on my Mirage, it's awesome! > I doubt i'll have boons, as my friend plays Berserker, so again, either condi or power DPS build. > Unless i provide support but idk, is that really needed in open world content? > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build. > > > > for any damage-build renegade should be chosen over herald. > > > > > > Thank you! :) > So far i'm thinking Renegade. > Now to just choose either Viper's or Trailblazer's. :smile: > I might choose Viper's though for that shortbow autoattack, to deal with trash mobs easier haha, just for a joke. > Also, i mainly play tanky support builds, so maybe a glass cannon would be fun! Viper’s will make you a better player. Choose vipers. Soulcleave is honestly strong enough sustain that you should have no issue with 99% of PvE content (even when solo) in viper gear on renegade if you know what you’re doing and play well. Take a mace and an axe in addition to the shortbow as they work best in tandem with each other. And please please please don’t run Devastation for Battle Scars unless you really, really feel you need the sustain. While it does add survivability, you lose a bunch of damage and utility. Invocation is a better traitline that gives you more access to fury, might, +condi/power damage, the option to run Cleansing Channel, and ofc Charged Mists, which is one of the best traits for any Renegade since you can get an extra 25 energy every swap which directly increases your damage and potential sustain

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > > > It is definetely in need of an stronger class-specific group buff. Some that increases the herald-performance in a group, but not on its own. > > > > > > Rev already pretty much has *dibs* on alacr position in group content, I'm not sure why it would need another "class-specific group buff". That's already something that exists for this class as a whole. > > > > They're clearly discussing Herald not Renegade > > Yes, but the Herald and Renegade aren't a separate class, it's still all Rev. And "Rev" is clearly what I wrote. alacrity isn't a "class specific group buff" unless you completely ignore mesmers. While I don't necessarily agree that Herald should receive even stronger class specific buffs than it already has, you have to admit that Herald is floundering behind almost all other specs in the game, as it has done since about a year after its release 6 years ago. Something should be done to fix that. A class specific buff or increase to the already existing buffs is certainly one way to do that

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > It is definetely in need of an stronger class-specific group buff. Some that increases the herald-performance in a group, but not on its own. > > Rev already pretty much has *dibs* on alacr position in group content, I'm not sure why it would need another "class-specific group buff". That's already something that exists for this class as a whole. They're clearly discussing Herald not Renegade

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > It feel like the fact that chrono lose the ability to self-shatter (pre HoT trait _Illusory persona_) have been forgotten in it's "tradeoff". > - Chrono: Lose _illusory persona_, slightly different shatter skills. (From my point of view it's a loss) this is incorrect and no longer the case, they gave illusionary persona back to chrono sometime this year

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class. > > If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion. > > Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better. Except that doesn’t make any sense. There is a clear “trade off” trait (aka the Minor Adept trait) which is mostly what Anet is talking about when discussing trade offs. Every other minor trait (minor master and minor grandmaster) is directly replacing those minor traits from other core trait lines that are not chosen. It’s always been understood that taking an elite spec traitline is a trade off in and of itself since you lose access to 1 core traitline. However, what should not be done in this discussion is conflating the “non-trade off” minor traits as being “no cost bonuses” like the OP has done for several especs. For example, the OP says Herald gains 10% health just for being Herald and that there is no tradeoff. This isn’t true, Draconic Fortitude is a Minor Master trait. By taking Herald you lose access to all other Minor Masters from core that you’re not choosing. For further example, if not taking Retribution for Revenant you then lose the corresponding Minor Master, which is Unwavering Avoidance (gain vigor when you evade an attack). This is why it’s kind of pointless to discuss all of the minor traits when discussing Elite Spec trade offs and discussion should be focused on the direct tradeoffs. It’s understood that you’re losing access to some core traitlines and some core minors to get an espec traitline and their minors. This is more a direct question of “are these minors in-line with core minors” which is more of a question of regular balance than of tradeoffs.

> @"Infusion.7149" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion > > Did the moderators move this thread? Yes looks like they did. It was originally posted in PvP.