LucianTheAngelic.7054

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not. **This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns**

> > >

> > > I agree with your previous quote. Although I would love more weapons, my biggest issue with the core class is Ventari and its ability to perform as a dedicated support role (which extends to both e-specs as well) especially post-big balance patch. As a pretty diehard core Rev player, the base class is pretty great in most regards. Ancient Echo and an additional core traitline puts it at a totally respectable spot.

> >

> > Yeah I agree ventari needs work to be truly viable in Competitive. I think it’s generally good/okay in PvE. A bigger heal radius would be nice and if that isn’t enough then maybe some sort of fundamental rework.

> >

> > I agree core is in a good spot too! I only wish we had an extra core legend or set of “invocation” utilities, but even that is more of a “want because I think more options would be cool” than a “the class really needs it.”

>

> Yeah I have always thought such an idea would be nice, but when I imagine an invocation line I actually immediately think of Shiro, lol. Riposting Shadows and Phase Traversal kinda fulfill that mist-traveler fantasy to me.

>

> To be fair to ANet, I'd say all of the core legends are pretty diverse in their application and their role usage aside from Ventari. That's why I've had a change of heart and am in favor of a total rework to Ventari. Still keep it as the most supportive legend, but de-emphasize that role a bit more to make the usage more diverse in other builds, and transfer some of that supportive focus to the weapon skills. At this point I think that would be the healthiest and most hopeful path as much as I hate to admit it.

A full ventari rework with more general usage would actually be really great. That’s actually a really solid idea you have. It would be nice to feel like it could do more than just mediocre healing (only due to functionality, not raw numbers) and some defense.

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > > > One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

> > > >

> > > > > > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

> > > >

> > > > **The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).

> > > >

> > >

> > > I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said.

> >

> > Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not. **This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns**

>

> There is nothing about elites that suggest your conclusion.

Completely untrue and Anet doesn’t agree with you. **Anet LITERALLY states my conclusion. It’s not even my conclusion, it’s theirs.**

>

> Look at many of the classes that have multiple builds with core and the same type of builds with elites. There is no reason you can't have a viable core Condi class.

This is completely class dependent. There is no hard or fast rule here. However **every class has gaps in their core builds, which is what elite specs are intended to address as Anet has said themselves on many occasions**

>

> Though your argument fails, in general its true that elites are more powerful.

I’m going to state this a 4th time because you apparently didn’t understand it the first time I said it. **Anet’s stance on Elite Specs is that they are supposed to add new playstyles and help fill in gaps in the core classes.**

This isn’t a matter of “my argument fails” (which it very literally doesn’t since it’s not even my argument) it’s a matter of “these are the design decisions that Anet themselves have chosen.” **I’m not sure how the creators of their own game can be wrong about the reasons why they make certain design decisions.**

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > >

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

> > > >

> > > > > > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

> > > >

> > > > **The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).

> > > >

> > >

> > > I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said.

> >

> > Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not. **This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns**

>

> I agree with your previous quote. Although I would love more weapons, my biggest issue with the core class is Ventari and its ability to perform as a dedicated support role (which extends to both e-specs as well) especially post-big balance patch. As a pretty diehard core Rev player, the base class is pretty great in most regards. Ancient Echo and an additional core traitline puts it at a totally respectable spot.

Yeah I agree ventari needs work to be truly viable in Competitive. I think it’s generally good/okay in PvE. A bigger heal radius would be nice and if that isn’t enough then maybe some sort of fundamental rework.

I agree core is in a good spot too! I only wish we had an extra core legend or set of “invocation” utilities, but even that is more of a “want because I think more options would be cool” than a “the class really needs it.”

> @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > This is correct but also incorrect. Morale Breaker (in its 50 time entirety) OR Stormcaller Weapons (which are insanely expensive for a random story meta collection) **are required** to complete the story meta achievement and get the mastery point from the episode. There are no other choices available to be able to finish the episode

>

> yet this has nothing to do with finishing the episode or even a story meta achievement at all. it's a map and story meta achievement. which is by definition more than a story achievement. well actually it's a map, story and side modes meta achievement, containing strikes that are neither part of the map nor part of the story. the achievement design is just inherently bad, a collection of unconnected achievements that stole us a real story meta achievement.

All of those things are still technically “Story Meta Achievements” and have been since LS3. Also LS2 and the expansions **are the only parts of the game that have separated sections for both maps/story/etc.** Perhaps a better terminology would be “Living World Meta Achievements” as a more “catch all” term, but my point still stands that the expectations and grind for “Living World Meta Achievements” is **objectively higher in IBS now than it has been since LS1.**

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

> >

> > > > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

> >

> > **The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).

> >

>

> I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said.

Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not. **This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns**

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > One Mastery Point for doing the Strike Mission _one_ time, the second Mastery Point for doing the Strike Mission _ten_ times.

> > At least I remembered correctly that the Strike Mission gave two points.

> >

> > > Also, unless you didn't play in the map much at all, the 'Glory to X Legion' weren't very 'grindy'; the commendations were pretty easy to acquire.

> >

> > Grindy doesn't imply that it's hard to do in anyway.

> > Having to repeat something multiple times **is** grindy. In fact, it's the very definition of grinding in video games.

> > I had to do the full meta about three times for each of those points, amounting to doing the full run 18 times.

> > If you think repeating a tiring and mind-numbing meta almost 20 times is no grind, your personal definition deviates from the factual one.

> >

>

> Perhaps, we have different playstyles. I think I've only done the meta 3 or 4 times; I finished the 'Glory' achievements long before then.

How did you do the glory achievements without doing the meta at all? Every event on that map is part of the meta

> Incorrect. One Mastery Point for doing the Strike Mission _one_ time, the second Mastery Point for doing the Strike Mission _ten_ times.

This is correct but also incorrect. Morale Breaker (in its 50 time entirety) OR Stormcaller Weapons (which are insanely expensive for a random story meta collection) **are required** to complete the story meta achievement and get the mastery point from the episode. There are no other choices available to be able to finish the episode

> @"Feilou.7395" said:

> > Story Meta Achievements have ALWAYS been casual/semi-casual and accessible to the vast majority of the playerbase. In the early days of Living World Season 1 they were used to provide players with a sort of "guide" towards completing the short segments of "every 2 week story" with a moderate/good reward at the end of it. Back in those days most of the achievements were doable with enough time played during the two week segment. There was nothing truly egregious about them and they generally had multiple pathways to complete the overarching Meta Achievement. Move on to Living World Season 2 and it became very much the same thing, with nothing incredibly grindy and only some achievements requiring a moderate level of skill. **At this point "Story Meta Achievements" solidified themselves as a staple within GW2's reward structure as something that was attainable for nearly all players provided a moderate level of commitment was put in.** This was so much the intention and perception of Story Meta Achievements that **In Living World Season 3 Anet even removed the Heart of Koda Infusion collection from the Story Journal and put it into the Collections tab simply because the cost and effort required was monstrously disproportionate with what is usually considered a "story type" achievement.** LS4 introduced added grind for some of the achievements, BUT all of them had many different pathways that could be taken to finish the Meta.

>

> Claiming that a lot of casuals complete these or do them is far away from the truth as not even a lot of the more invested people do them. I know a lot of people dislike using GW2 efficiency for comparisons, but it makes a lot of sense in this case as completing them requires a lot of time and GW2 has a lot of the people with high playtime. According to GW2 efficiency almost no one completes them.

> Just one example:

> The Completion rate of the Achievement "War Eternal" Mastery" " is 4.2% whereas the completion rate of the raid "Key of Adashim" is 6.4% . Both were released at almost the same time (2 weeks apart with the raid being released later).

> This shows that less people do these achievements than people clear raids (and raids are not flooded with people). It is obviously vastly easier to develop such achievements which means they should still be released, but claiming that they are casual or anything similar is absolute hyperbole.

Just because people don’t do them frequently /do them less than raids doesn’t mean they’re not casual. They are far, far more casual achievements than any of the raids that have been released. When I speak of “level of casualness” I speak on the type/difficulty of content, not the frequency at which it gets completed. Also I claimed that it was casual/semi-casual generally.

The fact remains that Story Meta Achievements are definitely structured into the game as an overarching goal/ reward system for story/open world play which is inherently geared towards the average casual player. Whether it succeeds at that is debatable, but grindier achievements certainly won’t increase those completion numbers either

Renegade has no issues in Open World, even with full damage traits/Viper Gear. Sure, it's not going to tank shit like a Mallyx Trailblazer Herald and it doesn't have the Infuse Light Invuln, but I wouldn't expect it to given that it it's a different spec and also glassier and more offensive. And it's certainly more offensive. You can get far higher numbers by yourself with Renegade than you can with Herald solo, and that's just a fact.

Kalla also isn't an issue. If you give a half a second of thought to where you place your spirits they'll rarely become CC'd. Even if they do, it's not a major issue; you just lose some damage or healing, which is easily rectified through skillful play.

Lastly the game shouldn't be balanced around being able to be invincible and solo all things. If it was, then Herald would be one of the best classes in the game, which it obviously isn't.

> @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

> > > > >

> > > > > A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

> > > > >

> > > > > Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

> > > >

> > > > this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

> > >

> > > what?

> > > the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

> > >

> > > is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

> > >

> > > mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

> >

> > Reading comprehension is a lost art....

> > Yes, as I said, we had grindy achievements like the Tarir one and that one got old fast as well. It was just as "not necessary" as morale breaker is. No where did I say it was necessary to complete these achievements to play the game or experience the story. Icebrood points were a bit more scarce at the begining, but I think ANet has adressed the issue and there's now plenty so you don't need all of them to progress your masteries.

>

> still i don't see where morale breaker is necessary.

> if you're talking about ice brood saga mastery points: that season is still in development, there are more points to come. it is your own choice if you try to complete all masteries in an unfinished state or if you wait for easy achievements.

> core tyria mastery points got some grindy achievements as well and you can't call that new.

>

Again, Morale Breaker OR Stormcaller Weapons Collection is required to finish the Story Meta Achievement. One or the other. Both insanely costly in terms of time or raw gold (which is also time or money).

You're caught up on Morale Breaker, but there's a bunch more as well. I'd be happy to list all of the extremely grindy achievements for you from IBS if you want, though Iokh already listed a bunch in one of his previous posts in this thread

> @LucianTheAngelic.7054

> ice brood story meta achievements are in what way necessary to play the game?

And yes, you're right, Story Meta Achievements aren't required to play the game (except when they are), but they've always been a staple of the game that provides clear goals and directions (something that GW2 generally lacks otherwise) and moderate/good rewards that nearly all players can achieve. That is what they represent within the game and what players have come to know them as.

**However, the "Is the Icebrood Saga meta achievements necessary to play the game" logic is unfortunately flawed. Literally nothing in the game is required to play with the exception of a computer that will run it and an internet connection that can sustain it.** There are people who enjoy the game simply by logging in and greeting new players in Queensdale with their bright pink twirly moustache Norn. I personally wouldn't call that "playing the game," but for those people it absolutely is.

How then do you design rewards and structure for a game that is largely structured by whatever the player makes of it? The answer to that is to create a diverse set of offerings that are both consistent and also offer various levels of difficulty to please different crowds of people. So to understand Story Meta Achievements in the broader context it's IMPERATIVE that you understand and take a look at the history of "Story Meta Achievements," their place in the game, and what they attempt to accomplish.

Story Meta Achievements have ALWAYS been casual/semi-casual and accessible to the vast majority of the playerbase. In the early days of Living World Season 1 they were used to provide players with a sort of "guide" towards completing the short segments of "every 2 week story" with a moderate/good reward at the end of it. Back in those days most of the achievements were doable with enough time played during the two week segment. There was nothing truly egregious about them and they generally had multiple pathways to complete the overarching Meta Achievement. Move on to Living World Season 2 and it became very much the same thing, with nothing incredibly grindy and only some achievements requiring a moderate level of skill. **At this point "Story Meta Achievements" solidified themselves as a staple within GW2's reward structure as something that was attainable for nearly all players provided a moderate level of commitment was put in.** This was so much the intention and perception of Story Meta Achievements that **In Living World Season 3 Anet even removed the Heart of Koda Infusion collection from the Story Journal and put it into the Collections tab simply because the cost and effort required was monstrously disproportionate with what is usually considered a "story type" achievement.** LS4 introduced added grind for some of the achievements, BUT all of them had many different pathways that could be taken to finish the Meta.

Flash forward to IBS and you have the same exact situation again as the Heart of Koda, except even worse this time since either Morale Breaker or Stormcaller Weapons are now required for the meta achievement. In No Quarter, there is barely ANY choice as to what to do for the achievements. You're forced to do all of them except 1.

**The issue with this is that changing this direction for the Story Meta Achievements to become far more grindy and less achievable by the average GW2 player is the WRONG way to go. Increasing the level of Casual Grind is both boring to casual players AND hardcore players. It literally benefits no one.** And yes, these achievements ARE less achievable by the vast majority of players as they require a significant commitment in terms of time and/or money. For example, Morale Breaker by itself requires a bare minimum 8 hours worth of commitment **from that achievement alone** and that assumes 1) no wipes at all and 2) near instantaneous grouping. If you factor in wipes and grouping you're probably looking at double that or more.

Innovation and change is NOT always good. In this case, making important achievements even grindier in an attempt to create more content while providing less content is harmful to all populations within the game. Certain parts of the game should remain casual and less grindy. Story Meta Achievements is one of them. This is coming from a player that is very much hardcore, btw. I'm not some casual player complaining the game is too hard.

Anyway, I've probably blown way too many words on this, but it's a fairly in-depth conversation to have. I find that whenever someone says "But it's not required to play the game" I'm not going to change their mind anyway (I've had this exact same conversation with another user on here before) so I'm probably just talking into the void, but I hope you'll at least think about the 8 year historical context of the "Story Meta Achievement," what that represents for the game, and how making them grindier isn't the way to go. And yes, they are objectively grindier this season.

> @"WorldofBay.8160" said:

> > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

> > >

> > > A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

> > >

> > > Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

> >

> > this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

>

> what?

> the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

>

> is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

>

> mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

Story meta completion is locked for No Quarter by your choice of either Morale Breaker or Stormcaller Weapon Set. One is insanely grindy and the other is insanely expensive. This is quite disproportionate compared to all previous Story Meta Achievements.

Tarir achievement isn’t required for anything unless you want the title

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

> @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> > > 3) rev needs a better way to deal with condis. it has 1 baby cleanse one stance swap, and 1 decent one on jalis. Resistance is bad and since it corrupts to chill you cant change my mind.

> >

> > With how many sources Rev has for resistance it’s not bad at all. Sure they can corrupt it, but you just reapply it a second or two later and it’s not a problem. And on top of that Condi Herald has plenty of potential cleanse anyway for when you don’t have resistance. In WvW you’re practically a condi immune god, which is not something you can say about the vast majority of other builds, even those wit high cleanse. In PvP however you’re partially right since they did nerf the durations by 50%, but you can still get high enough resistance for it to not really be a problem. Also corruption is only an issue against Necro so ??‍♂️

> >

> > The issue with resistance as Rev’s main form of condi mitigation is mostly that it’s really only applicable to condi builds, which does leave power based builds wanting more cleanse. Personally I’m okay with this though it’s always felt like a fair trade off and something you can still partially build around with runes and sigils.

>

> While it does have good resistance up time, the energy cost of skills on malyx skills are high AND if you use the best resistance source on you you also get the condis from people around you, which makes boon strip/corrupt a sad time

It has good uptime through dozens of tiny packets of resistance though, so even if corrupted it gets immediately reapplied most of the time. You barely even need pain absorption for that. Mallyx skills are expensive, but the heal and elite are also cheap AF and can proc demonic defiance and the elite is spammable, so it’s not like you can’t proc it every 5seconds.

Pain absorptioning massive stacks on to yourself is awesome and rarely a burden. You can immediately transfer it and wreck people with Herald or cleanse it with shield/staff if needed. Just requires micro management, but super rewarding when played well.

And Rev also has enough cleanse in between resistance procs that if you do get corrupted and need to cleanse it you can. And the few times you do die to condis is fine. No class should be completely immune to an entire type of damage, which is what Mallyx Rev leans towards a lot of the time, so corrupt and downtime on resistance is fine as it helps balance that aspect of the class out.

>. Plus you dumped half of your energy and put your stunbreak on cooldown.

>

The stunbreak Pain Absorption doesn’t have a CD, so it’s only gated by having enough energy. Perfectly possible to stunbreak multiple times with it in a row, especially when planning it out.

> I disagree with it being a fair trade off when compared to other classes. I'd rather have more and more consistent ways of managing condis across the class instead of it mostly being on Malyx. The corruption traits are mediocre at best if you aren't running a condi or hybrid build. Additionally, there aren't really any other classes that have to trade a trait line AND Half of their utilities for condi control that is arguably better than what Malyx gives....

To each his own then. The only builds that struggle with condis are non-Mallyx builds but those generally have access to higher amounts of evasion or other mechanics so it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison as it’s all a trade off. Other classes also make trade offs to carry more cleanse

Also rev’s weakness to condis (outside of Mallyx) is well documented and has been around since the class came out. Yet it hasn’t stopped it from being a top tier competitor or a crucial part of both WvW/PvP for the vast majority of the past 6 years. So to me this is more of a l2p/l2build/learn matchups type issue. I’m okay with classes having issues with certain things.

> @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> 3) rev needs a better way to deal with condis. it has 1 baby cleanse one stance swap, and 1 decent one on jalis. Resistance is bad and since it corrupts to chill you cant change my mind.

With how many sources Rev has for resistance it’s not bad at all. Sure they can corrupt it, but you just reapply it a second or two later and it’s not a problem. And on top of that Condi Herald has plenty of potential cleanse anyway for when you don’t have resistance. In WvW you’re practically a condi immune god, which is not something you can say about the vast majority of other builds, even those wit high cleanse. In PvP however you’re partially right since they did nerf the durations by 50%, but you can still get high enough resistance for it to not really be a problem. Also corruption is only an issue against Necro so ??‍♂️

The issue with resistance as Rev’s main form of condi mitigation is mostly that it’s really only applicable to condi builds, which does leave power based builds wanting more cleanse. Personally I’m okay with this though it’s always felt like a fair trade off and something you can still partially build around with runes and sigils.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"felix.2386" said:

>

> > yes, being able to deal damage from 900 range away has it's upsides,

> > it's funny how you consider sword 5 a reliable defense, as it relies on having targets also it is only 600 range disengage, while shortbow allows you to keep a 900 range distance to begin with. you think it is easier to kit as a shortbow that allows you to counter pressure while kitting 900 away or s/s with 600 range unreliable shadowstep and 1 counter pressure that takes you melee range again?

> > also you have to be eating more damage in melee range.

> > ah and if you use sword 5 for disengage, how else will you do any reasonable big pressure in the next 18 seconds lol.

> > like 40% of the s/s herald build game play is to set up and not use death strike to hit air.

> >

> > even if you get caught in melee range, all you have to do is swap staff, jalis stab+hammer spin you instanly get and maintain 25 might as long as enemy is in melee and staff AA will hit like truck. plenty of thief got out trade by it. not to mention stab also gives weakness.

> >

> > it's actually kinda funny how you think people poop out stab and resistance now after feb 25th, you must be living in 2019.

> > also funny how you think evade is better then knock down that will force stunbreak or take burst.

> >

> >

> > why am i even needed here to teach "rev mains" how to play their class wth..

>

> Yo yu have been talking so much smack for almost 50% of this entire thread trying hard to derail it multiple times by flexing yur prowess with Rev, so maybe yu, a master Rev player, can please release some unedited PvP and WvW Renegade wins/duels for us to see please.

>

> Nevermind the others, I myself would like to see what yu are talking about and maybe learn from it.

> Please and thanks.

>

If you actually need the pointers or want to see what he’s talking about look at the past couple monthly ATs. Ren has been the revenant build of choice lately

> @"Kichwas.7152" said:

> What's wrong with the animations?

>

> I just made a second revenant yesterday to do a DPS build (my other recent thread). She's running around with mace/axe and the animations are what sold me on keeping the character.

>

It’s not anything someone super new to the class would notice immediately.

Essentially, mace 2 (searing fissure) had its animation partly combined with Coalescence of Ruin’s animation (unsure if this was intentional). Several patches later it bugged out and part of the Coalescence effect animation now appears outside of the AoE indicator. That part of the animation also animated in the wrong direction if you look closely.

Also as a side note Coalescence of Ruin still has no audio effect for a year now.

> @"Cobra.6509" said:

> for me having to wait minutes after I fail is a bummer.....all muscle memory learned while I fail my run is gone ...basically every run is a first run for me....

That’s not how muscle memory works

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> Tickets for the ascended variant are not so hard to get imho.

>

> But the issue I have with the change that it invalidates an achievement for the players who grinded to 2000 to get the shiny armor.

> I know of players who stopped playing because of frustration with this. It would be nice to see another special and exclusive recognition for players who gained WvW rank 2000.

I was consistently playing WvW every day for an hour or so to keep progressing towards it. Was on track to get it within 6 months. Now i’ve stopped WvWing each day since I was well past 500. I only play it now if I’m in the mood for it or playing with friends. Unfortunate that there aren’t really any long term goals now based on rank that isn’t the 10,000 WvW god title.

> @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

> > >

> > > The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with.

> >

> > The comment “it was never OP to begin with” is just not factually based at all. **Revenant has *almost always* been in the meta in PvP/WvW since it released and in many cases has been meta defining or one of the strongest meta picks.** When you’re a class that routinely beats out 4 of the 9 classes for a slot in a 5 man composition *almost always,* and at various points have been taken in 2s, 3s, or even 4s, you’re not looking at a class that is “a shadow of what it once was.” Sure, it’s gotten hit by nerfs over the years, but so has literally every other class. After the giant balance patch in February literally every class is “a shadow of what it once was.”

> >

> > Additionally, **Renegade is meta-defining in PvE for the last year to two years+, and certain versions of Rev have also had strong places in PvE meta at various points since HoT release (though admittedly it did fall off for about a year before PoF released).

> "Routinely beat 4 out of the 9 classes", that's an extremely strong affirmation that requires proof.

I don't have time to go dig through the past 6 years worth of proof, but looking at monthly AT videos or the wiki for any standings information is a good place to start. Here's two easy to access links where you won't need to dig through hours of video:

Masters of the Arena (June 2020 Tournament) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Masters_of_the_Arena

World Championship 2016: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_World_Championship_2016

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware there isn't much other "proof" in written form. If you want further proof, you can look up Monthly AT videos. These can be harder to find if you're not keeping up with it monthly, as they're not all on youtube and they're somewhat nebulously distributed across several different streamers on Twitch, and obviously there are two tournaments, one per each region, so finding both is important for each month. Obviously the more you look through the bigger your sample size and the more reliable your data.

But essentially:

**Rev is *almost always* (note: not always, just almost always) picked by all top tier PvP teams during Worlds and Monthlies and all other big PvP tournaments since HoT,** with at least 1 Rev on each team. French Worms won a monthly with 4 renegades in the past several months. Condi Rev was dominant in PvP until recently. Renegade or Herald still being picked almost always in Monthly AT compositions on top tier teams up until September. In September, Rev dropped off a little for teams that won, but was still used on *most* of the top tier teams.

In terms of WvW: Hammer Rev (or some variant of Rev) has been a must have in the vast, vast majority of WvW metas. It's consistently been part of the Big 3 (Necro/Guard/Rev) since HoT. This is undeniable. If you need proof of this look for organized zerg videos and GvG videos. Currently, Rev still is great in the zerg and while Hammer is clunkier than it used to be due to CoR changes, it's still used. And Condi Rev is incredibly powerful in small scale roaming.

> Also, a class being part of "meta" in PVE isn't what I base my opinion if a class is good or not. Being a good alacrity/boon bot doesn't make it attracting to play for most players. Also, my point isn't necessarely only about damage, it's more about how cluncky the class became with changes such as what happened with staff #5.

You can't just ignore 33% of the game (and also the undeniably most supported portion of the game) when determining a class's worth. If you're only looking at PvP/WvW, then that's fine, but should be specified in posts, otherwise people will think you're talking generally. And if you are only looking at WvW/PvP, then Rev is undeniably one of the best over the past 6 years.

Ren isn't just an alacrity/boon bot though. Its also one of the best cDPS and is an incredibly strong healer as well. Rev only struggles with power damage, but that's nothing new and it's well known and will (hopefully) be fixed in the next expac. And sure, Staff 5 is clunkier, but it's not a game breaker. Additionally, other skills have become less clunky recently, too, with Sevenshot and Bloodbane Path tracking better.

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > >Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much

> >

> > This isn’t borne out by its current position in any of the game modes.

> And what position is that? And if you tell me "support" or "boon/alacrity bot", I'm gonna laugh.

By position I mean "how it compares to other classes in those game modes."

PvP: Power Rev, Condi Rev, Renegade (whatever they're running for this) are all common, specifically the latter two in Monthly ATs.

WvW: Hammer Rev in Zergs, Condi and Power Rev in small scale roaming.

PvE: Alacrigade and cRen are both top tier. Heal Ren is excellent when comparing healers for groups that need a 2nd healer.

>

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > >and is clunky to use

> >

> > Completely subjective. I personally think Guardian is clunky af and rev is super smooth, but everyone tells me “Guardian is one of the easiest classes ever and easy to use.” I personally disagree but that doesn’t make my opinion about Guardian objective fact. Clunkiness can really only be measured subjectively.

> >

> > Now, there are some bugs that could get fixed that would make the class smoother and less frustrating at times, but I still would never describe the class as a whole as clunky.

> Look up Renegade issues with it's summons or shortbow #4. You need to be on flat terrain for summons and #4 to be casted plus, you can't cast #4 behind you. Nope, you need to be facing where you want to cast it. That's on top of staff #5 being stupidly and ridiculously hard to land on anybody that isn't just standing still to name a few things that make the class clunky.

I'm aware of all these issues. Hence why I mentioned "some bugs" in my above post. Still subjective whether or not that makes a class clunky or not. What's clunky for you isn't necessarily what's clunky for others. These few things don't ruin the fluidity or smoothness of the class for me.

>

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > >and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p vers

> >

> > **Gw2 efficiency is potentially incredibly inaccurate. I’m a revenant main** with the vast majority of my thousands of hours on rev since HoT, **but I have multiples of other classes while I only have 1 rev and mostly only play that one rev.** So despite me being a completely dedicated rev main, my gw2 efficiency stats in terms of “quantity of professions” is not even close to accurate. I also have several alt accounts registered on GW2 efficiency that have the expansions and many different characters, but not any revs, further diminishing the revenant numbers.

> Look up "playtime", that's what I'm talking about. And if you say "revenant has low playtime because it's an expansion class", well not true, engineers is about as worse as Rev yet it's a core class.

I mean Engi and the other 7 classes had a two year (not insignificant) headstart over Rev and is only 10,000 hours ahead. If anything the fact that Rev almost has as much playtime as one of the core classes says a lot, despite not having 2 years worth of potential time. I don't think this really bolsters your argument. Yes, both classes are the "lowest played." However, overall "lowest played" doesn't mean "not OP" or "not useful" or "not meta."

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > Also you’re not factoring in that rev is an expansion class so is naturally lower, as there are people who won’t give up their mains no matter what, or have multiples of core classes since all the core classes have been out longer while only having 1 rev.

> >

> > Lastly, engineer is lower than rev on gw2 efficiency, yet I don’t think anyone would say it’s underrepresented or failing in any game mode.

> Maybe, maybe not, but it sure as hell is considered one of the hardest class to play (if not the hardest) and is considered clunky by many because you have different kits and their CDs to manage depending on your build. So again, less played because it's harder/clunkier to use similarly to Rev.

I mean to reiterate, clunky is not the same for everyone. Also the vocal voices on the forums are going to be much more those that dislike things or are more likely to complain than those that are satisfied, that's just generally how these things work, so the community "consensus" is not really a consensus at all, but a poor sampling of all the actual players.

> @"Yasai.3549" said

> **Skill 3 - Warding Rift > Surge of the Mists**

> I would like Anet to consider putting Warding Rift and Surge of the Mists together.

> Warding Rift can serve as a tell for Surge of the Mists, so we can remove the SotM delay casting.

> It's not gonna be broken op either since both skills will now share a single cooldown (though maybe a reduced cooldown if the player only uses Warding Rift without casting the flip skill)

> And maybe put some damage into Surge of the Mists.

God no. I really don’t want to have to wait 2s to be able to use my biggest CC skill. That would be a horrible change for PvE and also remove even more of Surge’s use in PvP/WvW. Current surge is fine, albeit less easy to use in PvP/WvW, however it still functions well as an evade and is fairly balanced now. I think people are too caught up on using it for its CC now (And there ain’t even much of a window to capitalize on its CC anyway). After the nerfs, its main function has really become defense. I think the sooner people realize this the better.

They could give it back some damage Or remove the windup and it would still likely be fine, but we don’t need super complicated design decisions to try to remedy the perceived “problem.”

> @"Doctor.1384" said:

> It would probably feel better if they just removed both the knock back and the wind up and converted it into a pure evade mobility skill that maybe heals and cleanses. Keep in mind that the the knock back and the evade give it two uses as an offensive and defensive skill, and it was gutted because of its offensive potential

Let’s not absolutely gut the **best CC in PvE** simply because it’s somewhat less impactful in PvP/WvW. And no, they can’t skill split what you’re wanting them to do since it would be a functionality change.

> @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

>

> The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with.

The comment “it was never OP to begin with” is just not factually based at all. **Revenant has *almost always* been in the meta in PvP/WvW since it released and in many cases has been meta defining or one of the strongest meta picks.** When you’re a class that routinely beats out 4 of the 9 classes for a slot in a 5 man composition *almost always,* and at various points have been taken in 2s, 3s, or even 4s, you’re not looking at a class that is “a shadow of what it once was.” Sure, it’s gotten hit by nerfs over the years, but so has literally every other class. After the giant balance patch in February literally every class is “a shadow of what it once was.”

Additionally, **Renegade is meta-defining in PvE for the last year to two years+, and certain versions of Rev have also had strong places in PvE meta at various points since HoT release (though admittedly it did fall off for about a year before PoF released).

>Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much

This isn’t borne out by its current position in any of the game modes.

>and is clunky to use

Completely subjective. I personally think Guardian is clunky af and rev is super smooth, but everyone tells me “Guardian is one of the easiest classes ever and easy to use.” I personally disagree but that doesn’t make my opinion about Guardian objective fact. Clunkiness can really only be measured subjectively.

Now, there are some bugs that could get fixed that would make the class smoother and less frustrating at times, but I still would never describe the class as a whole as clunky.

>and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p vers

**Gw2 efficiency is potentially incredibly inaccurate. I’m a revenant main** with the vast majority of my thousands of hours on rev since HoT, **but I have multiples of other classes while I only have 1 rev and mostly only play that one rev.** So despite me being a completely dedicated rev main, my gw2 efficiency stats in terms of “quantity of professions” is not even close to accurate. I also have several alt accounts registered on GW2 efficiency that have the expansions and many different characters, but not any revs, further diminishing the revenant numbers.

Also you’re not factoring in that rev is an expansion class so is naturally lower, as there are people who won’t give up their mains no matter what, or have multiples of core classes since all the core classes have been out longer while only having 1 rev.

Lastly, engineer is lower than rev on gw2 efficiency, yet I don’t think anyone would say it’s underrepresented or failing in any game mode.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > > > > They already said why its taking longer on their social media. They're bringing back voice acting, but its not the same capacity they had before due to safety restrictions, so its going to take some time to voice two eps and make a new one too.

> > > >

> > > > Source please? I read they were planning on re-adding voice acting in stages but don’t recall them saying anything about slowing down the cadence to do it

> > >

> > > I'm not sure how you could expect them to do it without slowing it down. They're still under pandemic restrictions and for over half a year couldn't even go into the studio, and everything they do still has to be done with significant precautions.

> > >

> > > I could go into a long post about it here but voice acting requires dozens of recordings for one single line. The effort explodes exponentially due to having multiple languages and then multiple races on top of that, so even though each episode many only play about a hundred voiced lines to the player, literally thousands of lines have to recorded to deliver that experience.

> > >

> > > That's why they rely on text-based dialogue so much ever since LS2.

> >

> > He asked for your source not your opinion...

>

> I'm sure its just an "opinion" to have played the game since release and to know the workings of the development process, but okay. The reason people can't give reliable sources is ArenaNet doesn't have any, they reply here and there and all over the place with little tidbits of information, sometimes even in video streams, but have no concrete communication with the community.

>

> I can't give you a source beyond "its just how they do things". And being sarcastic with me won't change that.

Yes, to quote Vavume, I asked for a source, not an opinion. **The only statement they made regarding the pandemic was that they were going to continue the previous release cadence WITHOUT voice acting because they were working from home.** As far as I'm aware (and the reason I asked for a source) they never said "re-adding voice acting was going to further delay the future episodes."

I've also played since near release and understand the workings of their development process; not sure that qualifies either of us to make statements for them. And we also don't need misinformation spread labeled as fact based on conjecture/opinion

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> They already said why its taking longer on their social media. They're bringing back voice acting, but its not the same capacity they had before due to safety restrictions, so its going to take some time to voice two eps and make a new one too.

Source please? I read they were planning on re-adding voice acting in stages but don’t recall them saying anything about slowing down the cadence to do it

> @"coso.9173" said:

> ugh i thought the idea was to have episodes with half a map so they would be faster released... but now we're back to regular intervals AND half a map with each episode.... it's what I was fearing.

Absolutely this. I’m calling it now but there’s definitely going to be at least a 4 month gap in between last release and this one. They’ve really been trying to make sure that “there’s something new to do every month” while making sure that the episodes don’t overlap the festivals. I guess they considered Sunqua Peak to be the “September release” (loved it btw so this isn’t a diss on Sunqua and we do need more high end content), but I personally would prefer they bundle fractals/raids/etc into the LS releases like they usually used to.

I had a draft I was working on for why Condi Herald is largely fine (**Torment Runes are potentially OP though and make up a huge amount of condi Herald's overall sustain**) and then I decided to watch the video you posted for context.

Literally the first encounter is 1 condi herald + a Tower Lord + guards fighting 3 people (including a Firebrand) that have no idea what they're doing, aren't cleansing, aren't kiting effectively and largely just facetanking all of the guard damage + the torment. This would have been the same result with almost any other AoE class since the 3 people were utterly bad.

Second encounter is a DH + Condi Herald vs. 1 FB Healer + 1 core Hammer Rev +1 Jalis/Glint Power Rev. The 3 fighting the DH and cHerald should have gone after the DH first, but the 3 didn't focus a target and thus wasted a lot of their damage potential. Also it's super obvious if you watch that both Power Revs are fairly bad overall and are being carried by their mediocre FB healer. And ofc once the FB healer is dead then so are the revs, since power rev is notoriously extremely weak to condi classes. The condi herald isn't even doing a ton of damage during the majority of the encounter, but just putting out consistent pressure while they chip away at the FB. Not sure what this clip is supposed to show, besides extremely bad play (honestly on all sides). And look at the ranks, all bronze or silver WvWers, likely with unoptimized builds for fighting condi.

Honestly after those two clips there's no need to watch the whole 30+ minutes and I stopped there (not worth the time). If those are the two clips that are supposed to "hook you" into watching the rest and "prove" how OP Condi Herald is, then they do an extremely poor job of making me want to watch more and they don't show anything other than less skilled players getting obliterated by condi with unoptimized builds, per usual, alongside mediocre gameplay.

And this is a main point I want to make, that **WvW offers insane amounts of customization to deal with conditions and condition builds** (especially compared to pvp). The **VAST majority of players don't utilize it AT ALL** and then complain when they lose to a condi build. And most WvW players are not great players, full stop, period. I used to 1v4 with Roaming Hammer Herald. Does this make Hammer Herald "oppressive" in roaming? Absolutely not. As for condi Herald, against any build that can cleanse consistently and can kite, the matchup is already not in the condi herald's favor and will go on for ages or until one of the players makes a major mistake. **Thief, Mesmer, Ranger, Warrior, Elementalist, and Necro (and ofc the mirror matchup for Rev) all have dueling/roaming builds that can either stalemate condi Herald or outright beat it and are just as survivable** (in some cases with way more in combat utility and escapability like Stealth/ground targeted teleports, etc. than Condi Herald). I've personally seen all of the above classes either stalemate me or beat me, with skillful play on both sides. Since **7 of the 9 classes have viable ways of dealing with Condi Herald,** why is this a problem?? **The problem really just comes down to lack of optimization and player skill, in the vast majority of cases.**

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

> > Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

**The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.** Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).