Vayne.8563

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > I agree reading is hard. Still doesnt' change what I've said. And since your rebuttal doesn't really explain anything different, I'll just assume that you're not assuming I'm talking about games based around story many of which I've played. Sure there are games that take that long, but not most of them.

>

> Again, reading is hard.

>

> If you note, I mention that main story would take around 20-25 hours for the average game with the remaining side activities providing a similar amount of time to get up to 50 hours per singular playthrough.

>

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > On the other hand, you did say that an expansion costs about the same as a regular game $50-60, which as Path of Fire came out only costing $30.

>

> Reading is hard.

>

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > If we consider that an Expansion costs about the same price as a full game **(Like $40-50ish)**

>

> I'd consider $40**ish** to be similar to the $30 that PoF cost. Especially when it's mostly just AAA games that cost closer to the upper end of the scale (While also being the ones most likely to be short games and/or trash)

>

> Many non-AAA games will cost in the $30-40 bracket and I myself have played tons of RPG's that cost that much with 50+ hour playthroughs.

If you consider 25% more to be about the same price, there's really nothing left to discuss. Nor can MMOs really be compared single player games anyway, where the story is pretty much the entire game. That's not the case here. Single player games don't have anything like meta events. This game is more about the open world than instance story anyway.

RIght now Heart of Thorns is one of the most popular areas of the game, but it only has four maps and the story is fairly short. PoF probably had a better story, and has an extra zone, but I'm pretty sure HOT is more popular, even though it's older. This whole discussion on how long a story should be, based on that nature of the game and comparing it to single player games is pointless in the first place.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > If we consider that an Expansion costs about the same price as a full game (Like $40-50ish)

> > >

> > > Also, that for single player RPG's we're looking at ~50 hours gameplay for a singular playthrough (On the low end, top tier RPG's average 100+ hours of content per playthrough) though this includes sidequests.

> > >

> > > Then I'd probably say around 20-25 hours of story and same again for side quests. With the rest of the 50+ hours to match top tier RPG's coming from the multiplayer content (Events, instances etc)

> > >

> > > Of course, this should be time that's spent with actual gameplay. Not time padding grinds, as those are not a feature of single player titles (Beyond JRPG's at least, which can have ridiculous amounts of grinding... *Flashbacks to playing the Disgaea series and leveling all my characters from 1-9999 ten times over for max stats in each of th e5 titles...**

> > >

> > > Thus, with this much content available in an expansion, there would be ample time to work on smaller content updates (I.e. Content Patches/Living World) and work on the next expansion.

> > >

> > > Of course, this will never happen. Mostly because MMO developers/publishers quickly get into the mindset of churning out an Expansion after 1 year (Either because they want to poop out a yearly expansion release a la WoW, or because they only start working on it 1 year before they're due to release it) while such a level of content would require much longer to create as well as a large team in order to work on an Expansion whilst also doing that intermittent smaller content updating.

> >

> > 50 hours to do the story on most games? Without anything else, just a play through? Hardly. The average is probably closer to 20 hours. There are exceptions like Skyrim, for example because there are mods, but I've bought a whole bunch of games over the years that I've gotten through in under 25 hours, including some very good ones.

>

> Reading is hard.

>

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > Also, that for single player RPG's we're looking at ~50 hours gameplay for a singular playthrough (On the low end, top tier RPG's average 100+ hours of content per playthrough) **though this includes sidequests.**

>

>

I agree reading is hard. Still doesnt' change what I've said. And since your rebuttal doesn't really explain anything different, I'll just assume that you're not assuming I'm talking about games based around story many of which I've played. Sure there are games that take that long, but not most of them.

On the other hand, you did say that an expansion costs about the same as a regular game $50-60, which as Path of Fire came out only costing $30.

I guess you could say that I disagree with your post and leave it at that.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> If we consider that an Expansion costs about the same price as a full game (Like $40-50ish)

>

> Also, that for single player RPG's we're looking at ~50 hours gameplay for a singular playthrough (On the low end, top tier RPG's average 100+ hours of content per playthrough) though this includes sidequests.

>

> Then I'd probably say around 20-25 hours of story and same again for side quests. With the rest of the 50+ hours to match top tier RPG's coming from the multiplayer content (Events, instances etc)

>

> Of course, this should be time that's spent with actual gameplay. Not time padding grinds, as those are not a feature of single player titles (Beyond JRPG's at least, which can have ridiculous amounts of grinding... *Flashbacks to playing the Disgaea series and leveling all my characters from 1-9999 ten times over for max stats in each of th e5 titles...**

>

> Thus, with this much content available in an expansion, there would be ample time to work on smaller content updates (I.e. Content Patches/Living World) and work on the next expansion.

>

> Of course, this will never happen. Mostly because MMO developers/publishers quickly get into the mindset of churning out an Expansion after 1 year (Either because they want to poop out a yearly expansion release a la WoW, or because they only start working on it 1 year before they're due to release it) while such a level of content would require much longer to create as well as a large team in order to work on an Expansion whilst also doing that intermittent smaller content updating.

50 hours to do the story on most games? Without anything else, just a play through? Hardly. The average is probably closer to 20 hours. There are exceptions like Skyrim, for example because there are mods, but I've bought a whole bunch of games over the years that I've gotten through in under 25 hours, including some very good ones.

I care. Because right now I won't run many WvW events with my guild because a decent portion of the guild isn't on my server, nor can they join my server because it's mostly been full. The fact that my guild who plays tons of stuff together can't play together frankly sucks. People don't have the option to play with their friends, they have to either sit on the sidelines or we don't do WvW. We've opted not to do it...and we would. If we could include everyone who wanted to join us.

> @"Cynder.2509" said:

> Having the same problem like others that nobody is doing anything to contribute to the meta and most lfg groups are full maps anyways and they even advertise it as full then. I don't see why you would advertise for a full map. Either remove it or don't host at all.

> Anyways, it's a shame that nobody wants to do the new map meta as it's quite very profitable (got about 100g from just one run).

> I really enjoyed the "old" one and the new extension because it kinda feels immersive to me considering the lore behind the whole thing. Maybe I might enjoy this a lot more because of how much gold you can get out of the whole thing. :tongue:

I'd give it a couple of days before you say no one wants to do the meta. People are still doing story and completion and achievements, not necessarily the meta right away. I know i don't. It's only out one day so far.

And you have full servers you can't get into so someone is doing the meta.

You've always been able to get precursors for cash anyway. Even full legendaries. What's the most expensive precursor now? 700 gold? 2800 gems is $35, enough to get you any precursor in the game. By comparison you onliy have a small chance of getting a precursor from the current setup, which you can get by farming keys. This is a non-issue. It's not even the first time you could get a precursor from a black lion chest.

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > I think that this poll is going to have trouble being accurate for a couple of reason. The Vanilla period was 3.5 years. HoT was 9 months before Season 3 launched. Unless you're counting Vanilla as the time before Season 1 launched, which was only a couple of months....makes it hard to really get to know what people think.

> > > >

> > > > On top of that Vanilla was 8 years ago and still had that new car smell. It was all new and exciting back then. Cracks in the game don't appear as much, and people dcon't remember as much.

> > > >

> > > > Without gliding and mounts, without a wardrobe, without a looking for group tool, without the ability to preview the trading post, with a good percentage of the events in Orr bugged, with constantly bugged hero points, vanilla was a bit of a nightmare. But it was new and exciting and you never recapture that.

> > >

> > > orr doesnt count, its end game, so its gonna suck anyway. forging the pact was the breaking point for many players

> > > and it STILL isnt stable, i tried it in my last stint, and it bugged out on the last boss...AGAIN

> >

> > End game doesn't disqualify a period of the game, certainly not for me. It's not a condition of the poll. There are tons of bugged events through the game. There are escorts that got stuck, low level hero points that wandered too far from where they started (including a popular one to complain about in Wayfarer Foothills), which took ages to get fixed...you're making it sound like it was just Orr...but it wasn't. It was simply the most memorable example for most people because it was end game.

> >

> > Furthermore, I liked Orr a lot and so did a bunch of other people. I know I wasn't running the plinx chain solo.

>

> end game is basically the same in all mmos, just harder and slower versions of the usual content. orr was pretty much unplayable at launch, just as hot was. do you see a pattern here?

> how many mobs did they remove from orr? ½ of them? 1/3? it will never be a normal zone, but at least they made it playable for the normal

> players. it is ugly,and it has annoying sounds instead of music. it feels like a part from another game. and it leads up to one of the most disappointing bosses EVER

> if zhaitan actually DID some of the things, they claim it could do, then the fight should already be lost.

Except in this game end game isn't the same, because you have meta events as end game, and collections. You can get bis gear in this game without ever setting foot in a raid, or even a dungeon, now at least. Saying end game is the same in every MMO is not true. I can tell you this because I've walked away from other MMO's end game, because I didn't want to raid and here I don't feel like I have to.

I pretty much suspected my main would be a mesmer even before launch, since i played and loved my mesmer in Guild Wars 1. Yeah I know they're different but as it turned out they're equally fun for me.

However, the first character I played and leveled to 80 was an engineer. That was also the first character I completed the personal story on. See, I've been with my wife a long time and it takes her ages to settle on a main, so I saved my main to play with her main when she finally picked it. She started with an ele, and played for a while, tried a bunch of other classes, and finally ended up with a guardian. When I was sure it was going to be her main, I started playing my mesmer with her.

This is what experience looks like. lol

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > I think that this poll is going to have trouble being accurate for a couple of reason. The Vanilla period was 3.5 years. HoT was 9 months before Season 3 launched. Unless you're counting Vanilla as the time before Season 1 launched, which was only a couple of months....makes it hard to really get to know what people think.

> >

> > On top of that Vanilla was 8 years ago and still had that new car smell. It was all new and exciting back then. Cracks in the game don't appear as much, and people dcon't remember as much.

> >

> > Without gliding and mounts, without a wardrobe, without a looking for group tool, without the ability to preview the trading post, with a good percentage of the events in Orr bugged, with constantly bugged hero points, vanilla was a bit of a nightmare. But it was new and exciting and you never recapture that.

>

> orr doesnt count, its end game, so its gonna suck anyway. forging the pact was the breaking point for many players

> and it STILL isnt stable, i tried it in my last stint, and it bugged out on the last boss...AGAIN

End game doesn't disqualify a period of the game, certainly not for me. It's not a condition of the poll. There are tons of bugged events through the game. There are escorts that got stuck, low level hero points that wandered too far from where they started (including a popular one to complain about in Wayfarer Foothills), which took ages to get fixed...you're making it sound like it was just Orr...but it wasn't. It was simply the most memorable example for most people because it was end game.

Furthermore, I liked Orr a lot and so did a bunch of other people. I know I wasn't running the plinx chain solo.

I think that this poll is going to have trouble being accurate for a couple of reason. The Vanilla period was 3.5 years. HoT was 9 months before Season 3 launched. Unless you're counting Vanilla as the time before Season 1 launched, which was only a couple of months....makes it hard to really get to know what people think.

On top of that Vanilla was 8 years ago and still had that new car smell. It was all new and exciting back then. Cracks in the game don't appear as much, and people dcon't remember as much.

Without gliding and mounts, without a wardrobe, without a looking for group tool, without the ability to preview the trading post, with a good percentage of the events in Orr bugged, with constantly bugged hero points, vanilla was a bit of a nightmare. But it was new and exciting and you never recapture that.

> @"corcode.7581" said:

> Hello, I know this is an older thread but your guild sounds like it's the type of gameplay that I enjoy and I am wondering if you're still active and recruiting. If so I would be interested in possibly joining your guild. I am a fairly new player, been playing a few months, but I am loving this game and would love to join an active casual guild.

Hey there.. We're still active. We don't recruit as much because the guild is almost full and I like to leave room for people's friends/family when they start playing but we always welcome like minded people. That 500 member guild limit can be a bear. I'll try to message you in game.

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"ConorT.5396" said:

> > > > > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > > > > Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any' laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still, best of luck.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe it worked 6 years ago, when people were enjoying the generic MMORPG - but what I am focused on is making GW2 last another 8 years.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not what worked yesterday.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I am sorry that the thing that is going to make the game continue to grow is reverting back to a previous layout of allowing players freedom, but that is the case.

> > > > >

> > > > > Loose your niche, loose your potential customers.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If you think this game is going to grow or not grow based on having to level in an MMO I don't know what to tell you. Experienced players bypass leveling with tomes anyway. New players have a level 80 boost they can use. They sell level 80 boosts in the gem store.

> > > >

> > > > You may not like it, but it's not going to make the game grow or stop the game from growing. It's still better leveling than most MMOs I've played...almost all of them.

> > >

> > > i would say it is the best of ANY mmo i have tried. if they didnt have that huge gap between OW and story, they would be golden

> > > wow could be VERY clunky at times, CoX was just a harder game in general, FF was grinding de luxe

> > > i will have fond memories of core tyria till the day i die. and maguma should be nuked from orbit. it is the only way to be sure...

> >

> > I think a lot of people forgot the number of complaints when the game came out about people who did what they do in every MMO...try to go star, to star, and that's all they do. So they ended up being too low a level for the next story, and complained about having to grind. It was almost the same complaint and we saw it often on the forums.

> >

> > The problem is people think this game centers on instances, but it doesn't. It centers on the open world. Dynamic events are the heart and soul of this game. We do AB and Dragonstand frequently. Most people will never play their story as often as they've done AB. Even a guy like me, who's finished the personal story on almost 20 characters, and Season 3 on over 30, still have done meta events far more often.

> >

> > The idea of going star to star for most people was stopping them from exploring the living breathing world, a thing Anet has been advertising and talking about from day one.

> >

> > This game might be better for some people if they didn't have to play the dynamic events between personal story instances...but not all people and probably not most people. The stars were holding the game back, not setting it forward. It did nothing to retrain people to stop thinking in terms of just going to the next star.

>

> nope, i dont like dynamic events at all, its either a zerg fest or waiting for other players. it ruins immersion too, seeing the same big boss pop up

> the same place on schedule. there is a reason, why other mmos keep it in instances

See, I can't agree with this at all. Most events can be done by 3 people. 90% of them plus. You make two friends you can you do almost anything. I can do 90% of HoT with 2 other people. Then it's not a zerg fest and I'm not waiting for anyone. I play a lot of Season 3 and Season 4 and I often pop a tag, call something out in map chat and start an event. A surprising number of times people show up while I'm doing it and we succeed. I'm not waiting.

Bounties are a bit different, you might have to wait for those, but those do break my immersion and I don't do them.

In my guild we run together in the open world all the time...two people, three...five. And you know, that's probably the way Anet saw the game being played... at least in the open world. At any rate, I'd probably end up waiting longer for a dungeon or for a decent raid squad.

My guild doesn't raid, so it probably wouldn't fit your needs, but I came here to say...old adults are not 29. Half my guild is in their 30s and 40s. I'm 58. Just saying. lol

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"ConorT.5396" said:

> > > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > > Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any' laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.

> > > >

> > > > Still, best of luck.

> > >

> > > Maybe it worked 6 years ago, when people were enjoying the generic MMORPG - but what I am focused on is making GW2 last another 8 years.

> > >

> > > Not what worked yesterday.

> > >

> > > And I am sorry that the thing that is going to make the game continue to grow is reverting back to a previous layout of allowing players freedom, but that is the case.

> > >

> > > Loose your niche, loose your potential customers.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If you think this game is going to grow or not grow based on having to level in an MMO I don't know what to tell you. Experienced players bypass leveling with tomes anyway. New players have a level 80 boost they can use. They sell level 80 boosts in the gem store.

> >

> > You may not like it, but it's not going to make the game grow or stop the game from growing. It's still better leveling than most MMOs I've played...almost all of them.

>

> i would say it is the best of ANY mmo i have tried. if they didnt have that huge gap between OW and story, they would be golden

> wow could be VERY clunky at times, CoX was just a harder game in general, FF was grinding de luxe

> i will have fond memories of core tyria till the day i die. and maguma should be nuked from orbit. it is the only way to be sure...

I think a lot of people forgot the number of complaints when the game came out about people who did what they do in every MMO...try to go star, to star, and that's all they do. So they ended up being too low a level for the next story, and complained about having to grind. It was almost the same complaint and we saw it often on the forums.

The problem is people think this game centers on instances, but it doesn't. It centers on the open world. Dynamic events are the heart and soul of this game. We do AB and Dragonstand frequently. Most people will never play their story as often as they've done AB. Even a guy like me, who's finished the personal story on almost 20 characters, and Season 3 on over 30, still have done meta events far more often.

The idea of going star to star for most people was stopping them from exploring the living breathing world, a thing Anet has been advertising and talking about from day one.

This game might be better for some people if they didn't have to play the dynamic events between personal story instances...but not all people and probably not most people. The stars were holding the game back, not setting it forward. It did nothing to retrain people to stop thinking in terms of just going to the next star.

> @"ConorT.5396" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any' laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.

> >

> > Still, best of luck.

>

> Maybe it worked 6 years ago, when people were enjoying the generic MMORPG - but what I am focused on is making GW2 last another 8 years.

>

> Not what worked yesterday.

>

> And I am sorry that the thing that is going to make the game continue to grow is reverting back to a previous layout of allowing players freedom, but that is the case.

>

> Loose your niche, loose your potential customers.

>

>

If you think this game is going to grow or not grow based on having to level in an MMO I don't know what to tell you. Experienced players bypass leveling with tomes anyway. New players have a level 80 boost they can use. They sell level 80 boosts in the gem store.

You may not like it, but it's not going to make the game grow or stop the game from growing. It's still better leveling than most MMOs I've played...almost all of them.

I'll repost my response to this thread on reddit:

If you think taking out the holy trinity eliminated strategy, then you just haven't learned the strategy. There's plenty of that in composition of teams, providing all the boons, combo fields, and various protections.

You're just ignoring them.

> @"diomache.9246" said:

> AoC is Age of Conan? This game is still a thing?

I used to love that game, years ago, but now, it's not a thing. I had the same reaction you did at first but it took me a few seconds to realize they were talking about Ashes of Creation. I don't really expect it to be big, but it'll probably make a decent splash at launch.

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Did they just sell us half a map for an episode and the other half for another episode?

> >

> > If you were around during Season 3 that was the way it was handled. DryTop was multple episodes. Silverwastes was multiple episodes. Anway no one is selling me anything since I log in and get them for free. The only thing I don't like is not getting a reward when I finish completing the map, since I already got the map completion reward. It just feels like a let down.

> >

> > Edit: Season 3 to Season 2...thanks Randulf.7614!

>

> There was a 'map completion' reward for the second half of the map; it was just obtained in a different way: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_the_Bjora_Marches_Explorer

Lighting the brazier is not a map completion reward, which is very specific. Map completion is when you get all the vistas, way points,POS and hero points, all of which are clearly marked on the map. That's map completion, When you complete that everywhere else in the game (except WvW now, which used to have rewards) you get a reward to pop.

The scavenger hunt is different because those items aren't marked on the map and you can find them all without completing the map. There are no shortage of scavenger hunts in this game. There are tons of them. WE get some with every chapter. But we also get a very specific reward for completing the map.

I got that reward when I completed the first half of the map. Then they add a second half, but the game as already trained me to expect a reward. That's how the game has been designed for a very long time...since Season 2, pretty much. When you complete the second half of the zone, something should pop up. It doesn't have to be the same reward, but there should be something.

Because I had seeing a zone say 50% done, but I also hate doing all this stuff after the fact and not having it acknowledged by the game. I've talked to other people in my guild and they feel the same way. It's either leave your map unfinished or finish it and have the game just sit there and look at you.

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> People excusing Anet for a terrible business model that only escalates the entry price of the game the older it gets is really sad.

I've played a LOT of MMOs. None of them hav had a better business model than this one. Not one. And by a lot I mean most of them.

I'm not sure what's worse. Free to play pay to win MMOs or MMOs that offer "optional" subs that you need to pretty much play the game, or MMOs that charge $15 a month just for the privileged of playing the game AND sell you expansions and usually have a cash shop. Charging for content isn't a terrible business model, and giving it away free to loyal players is pretty damned generous. So is allowing you to buy it with in game gold.

The only thing I don't agree with is the lack of packages to buy it up front, when you first purchase the game.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Did they just sell us half a map for an episode and the other half for another episode?

>

> If you were around during Season 2 that was the way it was handled. DryTop was multple episodes. Silverwastes was multiple episodes. Anway no one is selling me anything since I log in and get them for free. The only thing I don't like is not getting a reward when I finish completing the map, since I already got the map completion reward. It just feels like a let down.

Edited: Season 3 to Season 2...thanks Randulf!

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Did they just sell us half a map for an episode and the other half for another episode?

> >

> > If you were around during Season 3 that was the way it was handled. DryTop was multple episodes. Silverwastes was multiple episodes. Anway no one is selling me anything since I log in and get them for free. The only thing I don't like is not getting a reward when I finish completing the map, since I already got the map completion reward. It just feels like a let down.

>

> Season 2

Yep, slip of the brain there. Season 2 is correct.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Did they just sell us half a map for an episode and the other half for another episode?

If you were around during Season 3 that was the way it was handled. DryTop was multple episodes. Silverwastes was multiple episodes. Anway no one is selling me anything since I log in and get them for free. The only thing I don't like is not getting a reward when I finish completing the map, since I already got the map completion reward. It just feels like a let down.

Edit: Season 3 to Season 2...thanks Randulf.7614!

If you're on a US server and you'd like some help in game, I can teach you how to survive the expansions, even on an ele. However, it's definitely harder/more complicated on an ele. If you want hit me up here or in game.

> @"StormyFae.2761" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > It's soloable, but it'll take a while.

> >

> > After you're targeted by the bomb that follows you (try to drag that onto enemies btw), you have to get into the tank, and use your three skill to break the bar...click on it and hold it down I find is the best way. Once the bar breaks, you can use the tank to do pretty good damage to it. Takes two or three rounds to kill it solo, as long as you have ammo.

>

> Very helpful. It just took so long the first time to even get to him, but now that I know what I'm doing maybe it'll go faster.

If you're on a US server, I can do it with you, or even get a couple of people to help. Hit me up here or in game if you want.

It's soloable, but it'll take a while.

After you're targeted by the bomb that follows you (try to drag that onto enemies btw), you have to get into the tank, and use your three skill to break the bar...click on it and hold it down I find is the best way. Once the bar breaks, you can use the tank to do pretty good damage to it. Takes two or three rounds to kill it solo, as long as you have ammo.