draxynnic.3719

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> agree with almost everything but:

>

> **Herald = A "No longer OP but it's still a solid player. It can struggle vs. condi heavy comps."**

>

> what this prove, this is about builds that some players use because a herald can have perma resistance up and have total immunity to condi dmg

>

Trevor is probably talking about the main builds used, not everything that could possibly be built using a particular profession and elite specialisation. Most sPvP players assume Shiro/Glint when they see Herald, and weakness versus condi-heavy comps is a feature of that build.

Going Mallyx/Glint removes that weakness, as well as the weakness that Shiro/Glint has that all of its heals require remaining in a dangerous position to get full effect. Conversely, Mallyx/Glint compared to Shiro/Glint sacrifices mobility, spike potential, and a stunbreak that actually provides some protection against the follow-up stun (the best stunbreaks are those that are followed up by by granting Stability or some sort of you-can't-hit-me effect like an evade or block to protect against follow-up stuns: Pain Absorption will protect against fear and taunt, but not other hard CC).

I'd be curious to see where Mallyx/Glint and Jalis/Glint fit in the order, but if someone says "herald" without specifying outside of a WvW context, it's usually safe to assume they mean Shiro/Glint.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

>

> And yet probably still more popular than Charr. Spellcasting is universal, illusion magic as part of religion and politics is not. Its popularity within human society should still exceed other races.

Again, though, _this applies to magic generally._ Humans have magic linked to their religion because they used to view it as a gift from the gods. All this line of thinking can demonstrate is that humans have a greater focus on magic _in general_ than they might without that link to religion, but since _all_ forms of magic are linked to religion, it doesn't push them towards a specific form of magic (except possibly away from revenants, since they aren't associated with any of the gods, although I headcanon that they're associated with Kormir and maybe Grenth).

Non-Flame Charr, incidentally, probably actually have a higher proportion of mesmers to elementalists, since mesmer magic is useful to the Ash Legion (probably the most magic-heavy legion after the Flame, which also makes heavy use of necromancers) and doesn't have as much of a religious stigma as elementalism or faith-based magic.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

>

> There is a difference between diversity and proportions.

>

That's an argument that goes both ways. Enemy forces are often presented as balanced groups, even if in truth it's likely that they'd be biased towards one or two professions.

Which is something else we see with human antagonist forces in GW1. Kournan forces shown in cinematic scenes in GW1 were often heavy on warriors and/or rangers, but groups found out in the wild were usually balanced parties. White Mantle in GW1 were likewise mostly Knights and Seekers in cinematic moments, Knights, Seekers, Abbots and Elementalists when allies, and the Sycophants and Ritualists only showed up after they became enemies. So it's entirely possible that the proportions we saw of the White Mantle in Season 3 were also skewed for gameplay purposes, and normally they might be a bit heavier on the more mundane professions.

(Mind you, given that we also see very few White Mantle in GW2 using conventional ranged weapons, maybe they _do_ have a high enough proportion of spellcasters that they can get away with mostly relying on spellcasters for ranged support. Someone - Rytlock, I think it was - does make a comment about the White Mantle being creepy magic-users).

Bottom line, though, is that what we see ingame is not necessarily representative of what is there in the lore, let alone in what proportions - and that goes both ways.

My general interpretation is that the effectiveness of light/holy versus undead simply comes from necromancy magic and Preservation being opposites. When you hit an undead with it, you're not just hurting it with the physical effects, but the unbound Preservation energy also destructively interferes with the magic keeping the undead entity animated.

Broadly speaking, each school of magic seems to have something that simply represents attacking the enemy with concentrated magic of that school. Preservation (generally considered to cover monks, guardians, paragons, possibly others) is light/holy. Aggression (necromancers) have dark/shadow energy. Destruction (elementalists) have the various Arcane skills, and Denial (mesmers) have the various Chaos-oriented attacks.

Now, it's entirely likely that Aurene's nature is such that she can employ faith-based magic to a greater degree than Kralkatorrik, but again, I'm not sure if that is something that's actually _new_ to her, or an aspect of Kralkatorrik's domains that Kralkatorrik himself didn't make much use of. It's worth noting that Glint was associated with both mesmer magic and air magic (Zephyrite crystals), and she's also absorbed part of the domains of Balthazar (also associated with monks and therefore guardians), Mordremoth, and Zhaitan, so Aurene's guardian-style magic is probably part of a whole.

It is worth noting that a some of the Nightfall elite specialisations do seem to have a link to crystals in general, if not Glint specifically. Holosmith is powered by Zephyrite crystals. Mirage has various crystal-oriented skills. Some Spellbreaker visual effects, including the Full Counter bubble, are crystalline in appearance. While it could be said that these are linked to the Crystal Desert rather than to Aurene and her forebears specifically, the Crystal Desert itself seems to have gained the "Crystal" part from past actions by Aurene's forebears, making that an indirect link. So at the moment, more than half of the professions have some sort of thematic link with Aurene. Wouldn't surprise me if that number increases with a new round of elite specialisations, now that the PC is starting to be regarded as a Champion of Aurene. (Caithe's conversion, for instance, seems to be begging for an Aurene-themed thief specialisation.)

In terms of bloodstones: Guardian magic is mostly derived from monk magic, so if the bloodstones were still important when the guardian tradition was created, they would have been drawing from the same bloodstone as monks: probably Preservation.

It is worth noting that, like the gods, magic among the Elder Dragons does not seem to follow the same lines as mortal magic traditions. Zhaitan had necromancy, elemental magic is spread across multiple Elder Dragons, and mesmerism, likewise, seems to be spread across multiple Elder Dragons. Guardian magic is not clearly represented among the original Elder Dragons, but speculation has been made previously that there might be a connection with Kralkatorrik: Kralkatorrik is often associated with lightning and sometimes even fire, which apart from light are the offensive energy types that are most associated with Preservation, and there was even a speculation that the crystalline transformations, while normally more associated with Earth, could be viewed as an aggressive application of Preservation. So it's possible that Kralkatorrik at least had a substantial chunk of Preservation, but it wasn't outwardly manifested due to his insanity.

Personally, I regard Aurene's "Dragon of Light" status as being similar to Kormir being the "Goddess of Truth" to Abaddon's "God of Secrets" - essentially, showing a different facet of the same core theme. Kralkatorrik was Fury and Crystal because those were the aspects he demonstrated most, while Aurene demonstrates different aspects. She clearly still has a strong association with crystal either way.

When it comes to the most fitting profession: I'd be inclined to say that Herald might be the most fitting profession for a champion of Aurene, but Guardian is probably a close second.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > @"Tremor.7481" said:

> > > > I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

> > > >

> > > > Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

> > > >

> > > > I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

> > >

> > > Not an innate -propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

> > >

> > > [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa "Lyssa") is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa "Reliquary") is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

> > >

> > > As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

> >

> > Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

> >

> > Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I _think_ the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

>

> There is a god for every magic school. But that discrete characterization doesn't seem to exist within non-human religion and philosophy. The Mind domain/Dream and Raven might be mesmer-esque, but they don't call out illusion magic specifically, abound with purple/magenta, etc. The eternal alchemy is distinguished by static/dynamic/synergistic. And the Charr only seem to care for elementalist or drudic (Olmakhan) magic, if they do at all.

Yes, but there being a god for every magic school makes this a connection between human religion/philosophy and magic _in general,_ not mesmerism specifically. It _is_ referenced a few times that the patronage and blessing of the gods gave humanity a major leg-up in magical ability over other races, and they may even still be ahead even of the Asura when it comes to using magic without the aid of technology.

But again, this doesn't provide a reason for any one school to be favoured. Necromancy is sponsored by Grenth, for instance, but necromancy is still relatively unpopular among humans.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

> >

> > Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines.

> >

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and fire are aware of it.

> > >

> > > Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

> > >

> > > It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

> >

> > I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik.

> >

> > I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants).

> >

> > I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3.

>

> Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

>

> White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

Actually, I'm inclined to think the minis _are_ indicative of the full range of the Seraph.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that ArenaNet tends to be... _conservative_ when it comes to factions that are mostly allies. The Ascalonian Army in GW1, for instance, was shown as being pretty much exclusively Warriors and Rangers apart from named characters and resurrection shrine attendants. When they became _enemies_ - during the Annihilator mission or as ghosts in GW2, for instance - we got to see their full range of forces.

The Seraph are probably in a similar situation. Apart from one personal story instance, they're basically only allies, so ArenaNet only bothered to implement the basic warrior and archer versions. Lake Doric required that the Seraph troops get an update, and a Guardian version was implemented, but even then ArenaNet was probably still being conservative. It's also worth keeping in mind that, if anything, it might be more complicated to create enemies in GW2 than in GW1 (in GW1 it's just a matter of configuring a build using player skills unless they want to do something more ambitious, while GW2 enemies are... well, not simply a matter of assigning them a build).

Outside sources such as Sea of Sorrows show that, at least at that time, the Seraph had a decent amount of magical support. Even if they've been underfunded, and even with the possibility that the Shining Blade has been preferentially recruiting magic-users among the royal loyalists, I think it's doubtful that the magical arm of the Seraph will have withered away entirely. While the _majority_ of most human armies tend to be base warriors and archers, every human army we've fought has had a significant magical component except the bandits - and _that's_ probably because the White Mantle hoovered up the magical talent (the ratio of spellcasters to non-spellcasters among the White Mantle did seem higher in GW2 than GW1).

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> Hi Caro.2730! I think that you've brought up a good point. The number of mesmers in politics certainly lends credence to the idea that they would _prefer_ to prevent a war rather than fight one.

Which... might actually be a factor. Some professions, like warriors, are pretty much only suitable for combat (a warrior might have something else they can do that doesn't involve fighting, but that wouldn't be part of being a warrior). Mesmer magic, on the other hand, has non-combat applications. If there's a finite quantity of mesmers available, and some are going into non-combat roles, that's naturally going to reduce the number of mesmers you see on battlefields.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Tremor.7481" said:

> > I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

> >

> > Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

> >

> > I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

>

> Not an innate propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

>

> [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa "Lyssa") is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa "Reliquary") is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

>

> As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I _think_ the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > The White Mantle possibly have the most prominent use of mesmers, but they seem to be common among enemy former human factions as well, such as Orrian Risen (Ravagers, and Eyes of Zhaitan seem to have mesmer-like abilities) and Ascalonian Ghosts (Enchanters). Exceptions are the outlaws, such as Bandits (probably because the skilled magic-users are mostly drawn into the White Mantle proper) and Separatists (harder to justify, since mesmerism would be _really_ useful for what they're doing - maybe their mesmers are too valuable to risk in operations that don't require them? Or maybe their lack of mesmers is the work of the Mesmer Collective?).

> >

> > There certainly are generic mesmers among the Pact in the core content, although now you mention it, I haven't noticed it in more recent content. (That said, for all that Dragonfall was intended as a Pact operation, there were few actual Pact members there.)

>

> The mesmer collective, as we know it seems to be less of a controlling group for all mesmers, but an elite club of mesmers. There is a line where the commander (If mesmer, I forget if it's order related too) mentions the reason they've never received an invitiaton to the collective is probably because they've never really stayed at one location for long recently, so they never got the sponsorship.

>

> Dragonfall was a very mixed forces operation. Pact people are more among the Mist Wardens though. Rytlock and Logan have a group of pact people with them while going to the Mist warden camp. They also provide the helicopters and airships (some of them).

I wouldn't discount the influence that the Mesmer Collective could still wield. For instance, if the important mesmer trainers in Ebonhawke were Collective members, they might steer their trainees away from Separatist thinking and/or refuse to take new trainees who have Separatist leanings... and if they have the right training from the Collective themselves, they might be able to use magic to screen potential trainees in a manner that an elementalist couldn't.

Regarding Dragonfall, I know there was a Pact presence there, but a relatively small one, meaning that you're less likely to see a random purple beam from them than you might in the core zones.

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> The guild wars professions have their themes and identities, but they can vary so drastically that the only reason for a group to not have say, necromancers would be "We hate undead completely and totally!".

Strictly speaking, even this wouldn't apply: necromancers don't have to raise undead, and in GW1 corpse exploitation was often among the best ways to shut down a minionmaster. They'd need to either have an aversion to necromancy in general, or lack the capability to train or recruit them.

> @"Tremor.7481" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> >Mesmerism is also far more than just illusions, but covers pretty much everything that doesn't fit into one of the other magical professions. The likes of Chaos Storm and Spatial Surge, for instance, aren't simple illusions, but instead blasting the enemy with magical energy at sufficient concentrations that it _is_ a brute force.

>

> I think considering mesmerism as 'master of illusion magic' is a lie mesmers (who have their own secret society and we probably should be more worried about that) propagate to make themselves look less dangerous - given Chaos Storm or their portal abilities, 'Distortion' is probably a better name for their school; playing with both minds and physics.

>

> The White Mantle, secretive as they are, seems to be one of the few opposing organizations with a large body of combat casters that are more often mesmers than elementalists (the Orders' average magic-user on the street seems to have spec'd Air) but that could be the result of their training focus.

>

Well, they are masters of illusion and misdirection. Nobody said that moniker couldn't ITSELF be a misdirection...

The White Mantle possibly have the most prominent use of mesmers, but they seem to be common among enemy former human factions as well, such as Orrian Risen (Ravagers, and Eyes of Zhaitan seem to have mesmer-like abilities) and Ascalonian Ghosts (Enchanters). Exceptions are the outlaws, such as Bandits (probably because the skilled magic-users are mostly drawn into the White Mantle proper) and Separatists (harder to justify, since mesmerism would be _really_ useful for what they're doing - maybe their mesmers are too valuable to risk in operations that don't require them? Or maybe their lack of mesmers is the work of the Mesmer Collective?).

There certainly are generic mesmers among the Pact in the core content, although now you mention it, I haven't noticed it in more recent content. (That said, for all that Dragonfall was intended as a Pact operation, there were few actual Pact members there.)

> @"Caro.2730" said:

> I mean, mesmerism is not exactly a brute force, right? Most of them stay among nobles being all manipulative with politics, well, human mesmers at least. Not many npc mesmers are seen in combat. Sometimes I feel weird being a commander mesmer story wise. It's like, why would anything be afraid of me? I'm a woman in a long dress running around with a rapier, creating illusions to confuse stuff.

People have already commented at how dangerous illusions can be - especially since, in the context of phantasms in particular, an "illusion" might not be a mere figment, but a semi-real or entirely real construct of magic linked to the mind of the target (but still, in many case, able to hurt other targets). Mesmerism is also far more than just illusions, but covers pretty much everything that doesn't fit into one of the other magical professions. The likes of Chaos Storm and Spatial Surge, for instance, aren't simple illusions, but instead blasting the enemy with magical energy at sufficient concentrations that it _is_ a brute force.

One also shouldn't underestimate the effect of confusion and misdirection on a battlefield.

> @"Tremor.7481" said:

> Being good in a fight doesn't seem to be tied to how you do it, and skill and power, even in magic, don't seem to be directly related. Though top mesmers have pulled off impressive non-combat feats of illusion and masking (see, anything Jennah does not directly related to politicking).

>

> Kas is generally considered (in story) pretty good for a mesmer and is more notable for her skill at detecting illusions, dealing with liars and other mesmers, and her own illusions but doesn't seem to be considered one of Dragon Watch's top combatants. This is a guild that is generally considered more than a match for an alerted enemy fortification with even a few members, so that may be seriously relative.

>

> Trahearne, for example, doesn't seem to be THAT powerful a necromancer despite the Firstborn mystique, as opposed to being extremely skilled in detecting and countering Zhaitan's version of his school of magic. There's several times in the story he explicitly relies on the Commander to handle the fighting aspects, or take the lead in a combat situation, and as NPCS go, he's not bad in a scrap.

>

> Tyria's dangerous though, you're outside a city, you're probably fighting at some point.

I think "it's relative" and "as NPCs go" is probably accurate. Zojja comments in Season 2 that the Commander represents enough fighting power to be roughly a match for Eir, Zojja, and Logan _put together._ And that's three of Tyria's greatest heroes combined.

Kasmeer clearly does have some significant power behind her, as did Trahearne. They're clearly a long way ahead of the average Pact soldier which, in turn, is probably a step up from the average Seraph, Warden, or charr soldier. It's just that when compared to the PC in story instances (which is where the PC is most unambiguously the Dragonslayer and not some random Pact soldier or adventurer) nearly anyone is going to look weak.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > If this is for pve my condi renegade/mallyx is doing fine :/ 6-8k torment ticks...

> > >

> > > On wvw it’s fine on group play, not a gimmick to carry still requires lot of effort.

> >

> > Renegade is an Elite spec not core.

>

> Hehe good point, and that can be a problem just like we talked in other thread, any other range main hand combination will only have sword or axe as secondary since will end has elite spec, and I would not like to have rev GS in range gimmick...

>

> Rev core lacks indeed 1 more core range weapon, an scepter would be nice imo.

Honestly, I don't think that's so unreasonable.

Shackling Wave and Temporal Rift are both decent control options even at range. The teleports are more melee-oriented, but I could see them being used tactically even on a ranged weapon (especially if the ranged weapon is one that's still suitable for use in close), or used to close a gap before switching to mace.

You can look at guardian offhands as an example - they're set up so that they do still give you something if you're taking a standoff approach with scepter, but you'll definitely get more out of them if you go into melee.

Herald shield, meanwhile, has nothing on it that points to it being a melee weapon. 'Course, it's hardly the best offhand in the game, but nevertheless...

> @"magic fly.2041" said:

> > @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > > While I agree somewhat, technically there is access to ranged condi for core rev - Just use Hammer, Corruption Rampant Vex gives you torment on crit --- then trait Venom enchacements for poison, and Abyssal Chill for more torment and -omg- actual synergy with Phase Smash from Hammer

> > >

> > > That isn’t nearly enough to be consider actual range condi damage. And hammer is too slow to make good use of rampant vex

> >

> > Just because its not BIS Meta doesn't mean its not doing the thing its ACTUALLY doing.

>

>

> I don't care about BIS meta and I also don't care about the blame-games to be found in raids so I avoid raids like the plague(in any game, not just gw2), but even I can see there's no viable way to make conditions work on a hammer.

>

> Here's why:

> 33% chance on a crit to do 3 seconds of torment doesn't transform every weapon into a condition weapon. If it was strong enough to turn a power weapon into a condition weapon, then the true condition weapons would become overpowered with said trait.

> So maybe you do a tiny bit of torment on 1 out of every 8 attacks at almost half the duration of the torment from a mace's auto-attack. It's basically worth about 0.4 seconds or less of torment each time you attack.

>

> Phase smash can do one single stack of torment every 8 seconds. The poison trait has an internal cooldown and will only affect one target of your attack.

>

> You can literally do more condition damage than that at a range by equipping an off-hand axe and using temporal rift once every 15 seconds. I'm not even kidding.

>

> From this I can conclude that hammer is not a condition damage weapon. It can apply conditions, and nobody's denying that, but a single drop of water is in no way equivalent to a thunderstorm so it's pointless to compare.

>

Pretty much this. To add to it, hammer _particularly_ works poorly with the Corruption traitline because of its slow attack rate. Hammer attacks are usually sometime around one attack every 1.25 seconds. At that rate, even at 100% crit chance (which requires stat investments you might prefer to make elsewhere on a condi build, especially outside of PvE) Rampant Vex is going to struggle to maintain even _one_ Torment stack on any one target without the benefit of Quickness or Expertise.

Which is why sword tends to be preferred as the least bad option for an alternate weapon for condi renegades: it has more opportunity to proc Rampant Vex due to a higher attack rate, and more chill application for Abyssal Chill.

Largely, this is a problem from rev's original design of no weapon swaps, but there was a reason that was a poor fit (although mace/axe works better as the sole weapon set than most). However, I think it is fair to say that every build _should_ have the option to bring a ranged weapon that works with their build, for those times when melee just isn't viable. It's true that most revenant stuff is designed to work best when in melee or at least close to it, but this is broadly true of the other soldier professions as well, and both of those still have ranged weapons that suit all their builds (there's no explicit condi ranged weapon for a Guardian, but apart from Tome of Justice most Guardian condition damage comes from Justice passive procs anyway) as opposed to core rev only having one, and that one being pretty much only useful for power despite revenant clearly being designed to have condition builds. There's really no good reason why core revenant shouldn't have a ranged condition weapon, except that it was originally designed as a no-weaponswap profession, and making a new set of weapon skills for a ranged condition weapon (even a one-handed one) costs resources. Without such a weapon, it becomes something that's going to need to be considered with any future revenant elite specialisation, especially ones that are intended to be condition-based.

I would note that it's not really a given that shortbow is bad with a Power build. Shattershot has nearly double the rate of fire as Hammer Bolt, while having significantly more than half the power damage (consider the bleeding an added bonus), and apart from skill 5 the other skills are at least a DPS increase over spamming the auto as long as you can manage to land them properly (which, admittedly, can be awkward for skills 2 and 3). Hammer might still have a damage edge if you make good use of skills 2-5, but Shattershot kicks Hammer Bolt into the dust, allows you to save energy, and the higher rate of fire provides better synergy with on-hit procs such as Impossible Odds and the Kalla elite. For all people like to rag on shortbow, it might well be better than hammer even for power builds if you're running Renegade... which says something about the state hammer is in.

Given that revenant's theme is that each legend has weapons associated with it and Glint is the only legend that doesn't have a full set, yeah. Not going to hold my breath, though.

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > > > @"aceofbass.2163" said:

> > > > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > > In contrast to all of the heal skills, Soothing Stone is pretty much Mending on a longer cooldown that doesn't really take away as many conditions as it should. 6 would have been more in line IMO, however with all the new things we've been getting. It really doesn't hold up that much, Jalis overall has been in a dire need rework which it's been slowly getting. However, there's still a few things go through.

> > > > >

> > > > > There has been this suggestion of barrier per condition removed going around which honestly it's surprising we don't have it yet given that Jalis "can" get barrier but only via SotM which is.. Mediocre at best even with healing power so I would agree to have it and encourage proper plays with the skill, kind of like Empowering Misery but gain more barrier for every conditions removed, because I do definitely think Soothing Stone deserves to remove "all" conditions for barrier with how weak the heal and large the CD is.

> > > > >

> > > > > Honestly, next to RotGD that needs to be speed up to the level of ½ PA (Energy is fine due to how the principle of the Legend is to always have stability and not be stunned, 40 is reasonable). This would actually make dwarf more attractive to a lot of players and try, but also viable to the point where the skill ceiling isn't impossibly high to work with.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Firstly, soothing stone also provides retalliation on top of heal+condi cleanse, which is already more cleanse than what the skill you compared with had (mending).

> > > >

> > > > Secondly, revenant will always have two heals. Please take into consideration the class as a whole before asking for buffs.

> > > >

> > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the skill is OP/adequate, but comparing it to other classes is just....unfair.

> > > >

> > > > A slight cd reduction would be nice tho ?

> > > UNFAIR YOU SAY???

> > >

> > > Okay, if 90% of those skills were really useful, I'd not argue. But more often than not those skills are only useful in niche situations that almost never happen. And to be honest some of them are useful in my imagination only. Also, how is it fair that we have no racial skills and at least one utility skill for every legend/trait line. HUH?!. Tell me.

> > > I only roam 8 hours max in a week on WvW nowadays and play other games instead but pretty sure when I cared enough I knew this class had less weapons comparing to most of them too.

> > >

> > > And yeah laugh@ShiroPower one-trick pony being only meta build for years.

> >

> > I think the point was specifically that comparing one skill to another skill on a profession with different mechanics isn't a fair comparison - you need to compare the professions as a whole. Every revenant heal, for instance, is balanced on the basis that you have two where other professions generally have one: therefore, revenant heals should take into account that there's another healing skill available. As a result, revenant heals shouldn't be compared to other heals as if they had their full 30s recharge, but instead essentially have an effective cooldown of around 15s. (Strictly speaking, revenants are better off than having a 15s heal skill, since the revenant can use them nearly back-to-back if needed.)

> >

> > Which means we can compare Soothing Stone with Mending, but we shouldn't add "and has a longer cooldown". Comparing them directly, Soothing Stone heals for less, but removes more conditions and provides a boon. On paper, taking into account the way revenant heals work, it might actually be better than Mending, especially given the general context of revenants having weak condition removal.

> >

> > Problem is, of course, that Mending removes Poison before healing, while Soothing Stone heals before removing Poison. That should really be fixed.

> I understand, that's why I never complained about Defiant stance which has 5 seconds duration comparing to 3 seconds that herald has. However like somebody else mentioned about that guy thinks revenant heals are OP because they are two. Oh well we have to bear with other skills which are often very predictable hindrance.

> We have herald with Glint everyone complains about despite it's revenant's only blatant invulnerability (which requires herald traited as elite) but without it most healing abilities are very pale, just look at Renegade meme we got with this expansion as example. Some people make it work, I made it work couple times too but general consensus it's trash no matter what other second legend you take.

>

> I mean, I used Ventari on Herald way more times than Jalis since revenant appeared and I almost never play revenant as support.

@"aceofbass.2163" did specify that (s)he was not saying that rev heals were OP or even adequate, just that comparing them directly to another profession's _single_ heal without paying attention to the fact that the revenant has two isn't a fair comparison.

Which is something that goes both ways. Revenants having access to more skills in their build at once than most professions is balanced by them generally being more predictable than most professions, their skills being chosen in groups rather than being able to cherrypick the best, and finding it difficult in general to adjust to meta shifts by switching in a skill or two (for instance, where most professions can adjust to a condi-heavy meta by slotting more condi clear, for a revenant it usually takes rebuilding from the ground up). All things considered, revenants probably deserve to get more benefit out of each slot rather than less, to compensate for this predictability and reduced adaptability.

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > @"aceofbass.2163" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > In contrast to all of the heal skills, Soothing Stone is pretty much Mending on a longer cooldown that doesn't really take away as many conditions as it should. 6 would have been more in line IMO, however with all the new things we've been getting. It really doesn't hold up that much, Jalis overall has been in a dire need rework which it's been slowly getting. However, there's still a few things go through.

> > >

> > > There has been this suggestion of barrier per condition removed going around which honestly it's surprising we don't have it yet given that Jalis "can" get barrier but only via SotM which is.. Mediocre at best even with healing power so I would agree to have it and encourage proper plays with the skill, kind of like Empowering Misery but gain more barrier for every conditions removed, because I do definitely think Soothing Stone deserves to remove "all" conditions for barrier with how weak the heal and large the CD is.

> > >

> > > Honestly, next to RotGD that needs to be speed up to the level of ½ PA (Energy is fine due to how the principle of the Legend is to always have stability and not be stunned, 40 is reasonable). This would actually make dwarf more attractive to a lot of players and try, but also viable to the point where the skill ceiling isn't impossibly high to work with.

> >

> >

> > Firstly, soothing stone also provides retalliation on top of heal+condi cleanse, which is already more cleanse than what the skill you compared with had (mending).

> >

> > Secondly, revenant will always have two heals. Please take into consideration the class as a whole before asking for buffs.

> >

> > Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the skill is OP/adequate, but comparing it to other classes is just....unfair.

> >

> > A slight cd reduction would be nice tho ?

> UNFAIR YOU SAY???

>

> Okay, if 90% of those skills were really useful, I'd not argue. But more often than not those skills are only useful in niche situations that almost never happen. And to be honest some of them are useful in my imagination only. Also, how is it fair that we have no racial skills and at least one utility skill for every legend/trait line. HUH?!. Tell me.

> I only roam 8 hours max in a week on WvW nowadays and play other games instead but pretty sure when I cared enough I knew this class had less weapons comparing to most of them too.

>

> And yeah laugh@ShiroPower one-trick pony being only meta build for years.

I think the point was specifically that comparing one skill to another skill on a profession with different mechanics isn't a fair comparison - you need to compare the professions as a whole. Every revenant heal, for instance, is balanced on the basis that you have two where other professions generally have one: therefore, revenant heals should take into account that there's another healing skill available. As a result, revenant heals shouldn't be compared to other heals as if they had their full 30s recharge, but instead essentially have an effective cooldown of around 15s. (Strictly speaking, revenants are better off than having a 15s heal skill, since the revenant can use them nearly back-to-back if needed.)

Which means we can compare Soothing Stone with Mending, but we shouldn't add "and has a longer cooldown". Comparing them directly, Soothing Stone heals for less, but removes more conditions and provides a boon. On paper, taking into account the way revenant heals work, it might actually be better than Mending, especially given the general context of revenants having weak condition removal.

Problem is, of course, that Mending removes Poison before healing, while Soothing Stone heals before removing Poison. That should really be fixed.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> It almost certainly will reset a random slotted utility whether on CD or not as most would consider it OP if the player had that much control over which utility was reset. Especially since its thief in question

It'd be an interesting build consideration if it did care always care about which skill is on cooldown. Improvisation is still powered by Steal/Swipe/Mark and therefore dependent on cooldown, after all, so it's not unlimited, and in a real PvP situation it's probably not practical to ensure that you always have exactly _one_ utility skill on cooldown every time you Steal.

If they're looking to avoid the RNG aspect, it probably _should_ always recharge a skill on cooldown if there is one.

> @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Both reaper and ranger greatsword have had periods where they were regarded as mediocre at best, IIRC.

>

> Ranger gs was never mediocre just low dmg on numbers but the tility was always there.

> Reaper gs is trash bc they made it slow af without proper numbers to back it up. Rings a bell?

Yeah, improving ranger gs was more a matter of tuning up the damage than adding utility, but there was a period where, depending on how you looked at it, it either had insufficient damage or it didn't have _enough_ utility to make up for the low damage at the time. It's a case of the numbers being off rather than a fundamental design issue, but that's often (not always, looking at you herald shield, but often) the case when a weapon is seen as underperforming.

My general point was that being a greatsword is no guarantee of being good. Nor is being another weapon a guarantee of being good. Buran described focus and torch as weapons that would only add to a "growing stack of Rev's weaponry getting dust & rust", but both offhands are or have been in meta builds for the professions that wield them, so there's no guarantee that either would be trash.

I don't think we've ever seen Rytlock using anything from a legend other than Glint, despite talking about voices in his head. He uses typical Revenant sword skills with Sohothin (don't know why it was so much stronger in the PoF finale, but Rytlock doesn't seem to be able to tap that power as a matter of course), which could be interpreted as meaning that he runs Shiro/Glint. Wouldn't surprise me if they made him a special snowflake that could run Kalla/Glint, though.

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Let's not give Revenant a Greatsword.

> >

> > Warrior, Guardian, Ranger, Necromancer and Mesmer all have greatswords.

> > Five out of nine classes are enough.

>

> And? Sword was at the begining in 6/8 and currently can be wielded by 8/9. Do you think that is better to get instead some uninteresting off hand weapon which ends used by nobody as currently happens with the shield? A couple of skills with no impact in rotation to provide 0 chages in or stagnated gameplay? Maybe a focus or a torch to pile in the growing stack of Rev's weaponry getting dust & rust? Also, you're talking as everyone of those greatswords work the same, when in GW2 skills are class specific, not weapon linked. So far they can make greatswords which shoots ranged hula-hoops...

Honestly, I don't see why people seem to have such faith that a greatsword would be great while some other weapon would suck. It's all about the skills - while a two-handed weapon might be easier to design well because you get the whole package as once rather than half a skillbar which might not synergise well with weapons available for the other half, it's no guarantee. Both reaper and ranger greatsword have had periods where they were regarded as mediocre at best, IIRC.

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Depends on the Legend. Revenant is not Death Knight. That's Necromancer. Revenant deal with Mist magic which can be death and destruction like Demon Legend/Shiro

> Or of positive and life, like Dwarf and Ventari.

>

> So depends on legend. Balthazar for example is God of fire and war and all sort of crazy stuff he done in the last LW. So no telling how a Balthazar legend greatsword would work. But I assume it would be built around whatever a person would need to kill a dragon....

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't bet against Asgeir Dragonrender.

Wouldn't complain if we did get something Balthazar-based, possibly based on the Avatar of Balthazar in the Durmand Priory personal story step, but the story does seem to be leaning nornwards.

Like a lot of people, I can't help but feel disappointed at build templates being monetised and ask why?

Equipment templates I can definitely understand. They're effectively extra storage space, which means more storage space on the data servers, which means increased costs, albeit with a convenience factor over simply getting another bag, bank, or character slot. That's the sort of thing that I can easily support monetisation for.

Build templates, though: I don't see why this can't just be something stored clientside, like Guild Wars 1 allowed. By the sound of it, in fact, that's probably exactly what's going to end up happening, except that people will do so through copy/pasting from an external text file rather than through the game. So the main distinction is likely to be swapping in situations where seconds might matter, such as changing a build at the start of a sPvP match.

> @"Xynxycs.6718" said:

> This is one of the reasons people don't feel hype about living world over expansions. Expansions are a fair trade of mass content. Living world and live services produce arbitrary money making limitation money traps like these. It stretches the goodwill the community has.

Pretty much. Can't help but feel that if this had been part of an expansion, build templates would be stored clientside and we wouldn't ~~have to~~ _be expected to_ pay for additional slots.

> @"Tukaram.8256" said:

> We teamed up with humans... how is this any worse?

This is actually a fairly salient point. At the time, a truce with the Flame Legion was being considered, but Smodur chose to make a truce with humans in part because of the Claw, but probably more because 1) forming a truce with humans opened more doors when it came to the rest of the world, and 2) he considered humans to be at least less untrustworthy.

It's also worth noting that there haven't been any Flame Legion-related problems that I can think of since Scarlet got slapped down. If there was ever an opportunity to bring back the Molten Alliance this is probably it, but it would make sense that after Baelfire and his closest lieutenants got smacked around that someone more moderate might have finally come out on top.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Out of curiosity, why that map? It’s likely little more than villages with not much interesting to do or see

I'd expect a decent-sized city in the Domain of Winds, actually. Collapsing all of the tengu of four tribes that were spread over Shing Jea, Kryta, and the southern Shiverpeaks probably would result in a population density that requires some urbanisation.

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

>

> And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

>

> Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

>

> Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

Problem is that persuasion via mundane means isn't going to be a magical domain. So unless @"DaFishBob.6518" is right and the second domain isn't supposed to be a magical domain at all (in which case, all of the non-crystal stuff that Kralkatorrik has is difficult to explain), mundane persuasion doesn't fit with being a secondary domain.

Well... they had a certain "we'll respect you as long as we can do so from afar and you keep out of our business" air in Factions. There are a couple of points early in the campaign where despite being recognised as representatives of the Empire of the Dragon, the characters are treated... well, not with contempt, exactly, but not exactly respectful either.

We also know from the Movement that his rule was "ironclad, tyrannical, and fierce", creating refugees from human Canthans fleeing his reign as well as nonhumans. He also united Cantha using "a strong national identity", which might have involved forcing the Kurzicks and Luxons to conform to that identity rather than maintaining their own.

I suspect the answer is simply going to be that Aurene is still going to need agents. Now that she's got the power of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik as well as whatever she had before, the energy requirements for keeping the Exalted active are probably no longer all that significant - in fact, given the indications that hoarding magic too much is bad for an Elder Dragon's sanity, Aurene will probably benefit from distributing enough of her magic to keep the Exalted active.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> According to the 2007 PCGamer magazine, the Eye of the North's structures resemble "divine origins". Arah was stated as a reference, though it's apparent the style changed mid-GW2 development - but the Eye of the North does mirror the Orrian eagle usage of things. Though at the same time, there's hints in GW2 that Arah predates the Six Gods' presence.

There was a mention, though, about how the Seers used divine magic to make the original Bloodstones.

We HAVE been told that there was something made by the Seers in GW1 somewhere, but it wasn't something that the players could identify as such. Could be Moladune, could be the Eye, could be something else. Could be the Bloodstones, I guess, although I _think_ the relevant quote post-dated that and wasn't referring to the Bloodstones.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Ototo.3214" said:

> > That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

>

> Mordremoth didn't need to get into someone's mind to corrupt them. He could easily corrupt their bodies, slowly turning them into plants (as we see done with Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves), or toss their bodies (living or - thanks to Zhaitan's magic - dead) into blighting pods. Mordremoth only got into the minds of sylvari, who could not be corrupted traditional ways due to the Pale Tree's protection.

>

> Jormag does get into people's minds when trying to persuade them - the whispers of power are literally telepathy, and the Dragonspawn uses hypnotism to try to force Zojja to want that offering of power.

>

> Both are mental mindfuckeries, even though they're slightly different methods of doing that. And they're far closer to each other than how Kralkatorrik uses the Mind domain in S4 (giving his minions shared spacial cognition).

>

> > @"Narcemus.1348" said:

> > I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

>

> When that conversation with that high charisma someone takes place in your mind, then the difference is a _lot_ more blurred. When "having your mind manipulated with magic" takes the form of thoughts being implanted in your head, the difference is _even more_ blurred.

>

> While what's said is different, both Jormag and Mordremoth use telepathy into the minds of others as their secondary domain.

Being a different mode might well be enough to classify it as a different domain of magic, even if it has a similar end result. Looking at GW1 mesmer spells, for instance, Domination spells tended to seem work by instilling a particular emotion, while Illusion spells worked by, well, _illusions_, but they could often result in similar effects. Punishment hexes, for instance, were available for both, and in the necromancer Curses line as well. So there's three different ways across two professions to achieve pretty much the same result.

Or to give another example, pretty much everyone has a way to produce flame and/or set something on fire, even if Fire magic specifically is an elementalist thing.

Just because the ends may be similar does not necessarily require that the means are also the same. Hypnotism, for instance, sounds like an illusion effect, while Mordremoth's techniques are probably more akin to GW1-style Domination, implanting thoughts and emotions directly into the mind of the victim.