draxynnic.3719

We probably could consider them to be analogous. While Aurene can talk for herself, Caithe can still use her connection to act as an ambassador.

One distinction, though, is that unlike a Claw, the Commander can also hear Aurene. Essentially, both are champions of Aurene, even if the Commander isn't physically changed.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > Scepter and Focus is where it is at.

>

> If it’s a core weapon it’s a offhand cause we only have 2 on core.

>

> That’s why I think next trait should be a core one.

There's also only two mainhand weapons - sword and mace.

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > Give me scepter, let me throw it like a spear, put a horn or shield in my offhand, give me an eliteshout, give me some new exciting burst mechanic, give me more shouts to choose from (preferably some that enhance dmg or directly impact my enemies, a boon that only i can provide and call me paragon.

>

> Spell Breakers lore wise are Paragons with Daggers as their Spears broke. So dont want double of that.

They're really not. The Order of Sunspears had a lot of Paragons and was one of the main centers of Paragon training, but Paragons weren't all or even most of the order. Joko banning spears was a symbolic gesture that wouldn't actually have directly affected most of the Sunspears, and Spellbreakers using daggers styled like Sunspear spearpoints is equally symbolic. Nothing in the Spellbreaker skills or traits points to Paragon.

Justiciar, on the other hand, was a title of rank among the White Mantle, usually held by Warriors (Justiciar Agatha in Lake Doric being one exception). There's nothing to indicate that they're support-oriented in this fashion, and I don't think the Pact Commander would want to be associated with that legacy.

If you absolutely _had_ to assign a school to core warrior, I'd probably say Preservation, because Mending.

Not having a fixed connection to any school, though, allows for elite specs to have a variety of sources. Berserker looks elementalist-like. Spellbreaker has been described as W/Me, but the skill names evoke Dervish and Ritualist, and apart from all the boon rip it's actually pretty close to how I could see W/G being implemented. W/N could well become a possibility for those who want a 'dark knight' theme that aren't satisfied by Reaper or Rev. Ultimately, to an extent, elite specs are a replacement for secondary professions, so even if core warrior was certified magic-free, elite specs don't have to stay that way.

Crossing Warrior into a holy knight theme, though, does mean it's moving into a theme that guardian already fits. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself - one could definitely imagine a spec that does guardian-like things powered by warrior-like mechanics (again, Spellbreaker). Probably wouldn't go much further in that direction than SB already does, though.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > > > > Yeah, it was made a little before that patch. The principles still hold, though.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The low health is survivable through having higher Toughness, good condi clear, and regular healing (the benefit of relying on Toughness instead of Vitality is that it amplifies the effect of healing). It can be susceptible to being spiked, though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well, Poison bypasses toughness and it reduced healing efficiency. In other words, the build will fail against any profession that applies poison. This is why Vitality is better than toughness in most cases.

> > > > >

> > > > > This depends on the amount of healing and the number of different sources. Even with Poison applied against you, if in a build that has multiple and ongoing heal sources toughness pulls ahead.

> > > > >

> > > > > As example I have a shout warrior who heals 2500~ per shout plus heals on stun breaks ETC. He is much btter off in Higher toughness lower vitality. My Condition thief in Shamans mix of armor is much the same. If healing sources are limited to one or two with a significant down time between them than more vitality needed.

> > > >

> > > > I know for a fact the you make good builds. I've even adopted some of your build. However, the build in question has ZERO healing power and 11k HP using Earth Runes and Demo amulet. So I don't think that build concept applies here.

> > > >

> > > > So in this case, if you decided to have ZERO healing power, you should at least invest in Vitality. Which is my point.

> > >

> > > Yes, I was not speaking to the build in question. I was just pointing out that dependent on the build toughness is advantageous over vitality . I was giving examples of where you better off with toughness.

> >

> > I agree. But the main topic is about high evasion uptime and my position is within that context.

> >

> > So if you're evading attacks, you wouldn't really need Toughness since the idea is not to get hit. In this situation, Vitality is essential since condition damage cannot be evaded. You can evade the application of the condition, but once you get hit, Toughness will do nothing for you. At the very least, Vitality will buy you enough time to wait for your cleanse cooldown, endurance to refill, or initiative to regen.

> >

> > The build I posted above grants high Vitality and 100% buff duration. With High Vitality and effectively endless health regen and vigor, the build can take damage (thanks to marauder's resilience and weakening strike) and will simply heal back up in no time -- while also dealing good damage (bound boost, weakening strikes, and staff mastery).

> >

> > I just don't see how the build in the video can survive at all. It deals a lot of damage, but I really doubt its survival.

>

> In a low Vitality + healing build build the key is the Acro line. With that healing you take Pain Response , GI and Assassins reward. You slap on Anti-toxin rune. You will have next to no issues with Conditions as the GI , PR and Escapist combination can keep them all off you. GI is very effective with anti-toxin runes in a build where you can keep your percentage of health over the threshold and this easier done with a lower vitality build. Given assassins reward a static heal and you get a heal on evade via the DRD line the health will usually be over 75 percent poison or not and GI flushes one condition every attack+1 from Anti-toxin and you get the 1+1 off the Escapists .

>

> I am not sure in anti-toxin available in pvp.

Close. Escapist's Fortitude cleanses a condition when you evade an attack, and Trickster cleanses a condition when you use a trick. Combining with Roll for Initiative or Withdraw mean you can shake off a lot of conditions quickly. Signet of Agility is also a condi cleanse, and condi-cleansing sigils can also be used.

Conditions really aren't a major problem unless you get hit with a big stack of burning from the fire weaver build and don't cleanse in time. If there's one of those around, then it's probably worth going for the extra Vitality. Generally speaking, though, when playing the build I'm more worried about CC chains and well-timed power spikes than conditions.

> @"Matoro.9708" said:

> It's funny how the class with 'jack of all trades' in its description in character creation isn't the most popular answer here.

Yeah, engineer's been locked into a handful of styles for a while. Bomb/grenade expert, static discharge, juggernaut, gyro scrapper, alchemist, holosmith. I suppose technically there's also turrets, but nobody does that these days - at most, you see one or two mixed into one of the styles above.

> @"rdigeri.7935" said:

> > @"Matoro.9708" said:

> > I didn't even think of that, that is brilliant. Throw mine works that way too, and this would make a big difference. Thanks man!

>

> I realized one slight issue with the system yesterday; if the detonation is the last "mantra", that means you can't detonate it unless you've used all the charges up. This might not be a big deal, it just doesn't enable you to destroy it AND keep the charges at the same time; only if you pick it up.

> But this might even be a good thing

>

That'd essentially become the benefit to picking it up - being able to use another charge immediately.

Another consideration is that it would complicate using blast finishers by detonating turrets.

There's a certain element of truth in that Glint synergises with everything (well, not Kalla, obviously, but they _would_ synergise if they _could_).

I think it is reasonable to say that Glint synergises best with power or support builds, though. Core revenant only has one really condition-oriented weaponset (although this is more of an issue with core revenant than Glint, it's just that herald doesn't change this), and apart from the burn on Elemental Blast (which is comparable to the power damage of that skill anyway, so Elemental Blast is more hybrid than condition oriented unless you add Abyssal Chill) the consume skills are all power-oriented.

Jalis and Shiro both fit into this category. Previously, the commonly accepted wisdom was that you went Shiro/Glint in PvP situations - where you need Shiro's toolset for mobility and to counter the abilities of other players - while in PvE situations, you could switch to Jalis, activate the hammers, and do well from there. The meta power DPS raid build for revenant used this principle for a while. In short, Shiro was what you used when you needed to react to what other players were doing, Jalis was what you used when it was about stacking on a target, surviving, and maybe tossing the odd CC.

The rework to Facet of Nature, however, turned that around, since Shiro's Facet of Nature adds to DPS and sustain, while Jalis's only adds to sustain. As a result, the combination of Shiro's Facet of Nature and Impossible Odds means that Shiro now deals out more damage even to stationary, unreactive targets than Jalis does with the hammers. Ergo, Jalis gets pushed out of the PvE power DPS role in favour of Shiro.

I think a few people have experimented with Jalis/Shiro core revenant, but the general consensus seems to still be that Shiro/Glint works better.

Jalis still has its place - a Jalis/Glint rev probably still has more sustain than a Shiro/Glint rev, for instance, and doesn't have the problem of Shiro/Glint where both heals are conditional of remaining in the fight - but he is definitely looking a bit like the poor cousin, especially since Retribution isn't a particularly attractive traitline at the moment.

> @"Jab.7309" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Necromancer is also good for having a variety of different playstyles: it's possibly the profession with the biggest differences between elite specialisations and core, and it has a range of builds even within each category.

> >

> That kinda suprises me, I know that necro has many builds but I've considered them very similar, mostly play deal dmg in shroud and play defensively when it ends. Then difrenses come from how you stay alife (minions, lifesteal, conditions), and what espec you have (core ranged, reaper mele). Scourge mixes things up by not having a shorud, but still you deal dmg when lifeforce is full, and than wait. I also feel like necro weapons are rather boring and weak, really pushing player into using shroud.

> **BUT** my necro isonly lvl 44 (got bored while leveling him) so mayby I'm wrong

Honestly, I felt the same for the first year or so, until I started coming across other people's ideas for necromancer builds and tried them out for myself. Some of them also require traits that you might not have access to yet.

Some examples of what can be done with a core necromancer:

* Classic minion master

* Well bomber. Vampiric Rituals can turn wells into a significant area DPS source in addition to increasing durability.

* There used to be a build that relied on Curses, Soul Reaping, and spectral skills to be able to replenish life force ridiculously quickly and stay in Death Shroud for nearly all of a fight. One of the key traits got removed, but the basic principles might still work.

There are probably others I don't recall off the top of my head (been a while since I've used core builds, to be honest. Maybe I should - at the moment I'm getting a bit turned off necro in general because I don't like what they did with reaper and scourge is starting to feel a bit stale). Not all of these are necessarily what people would call 'optimal', but they do represent different playstyles.

The key thing to note is that changing your weapons is not in itself going to alter your playstyle that much as necromancer. Usually necromancer playstyle is determined by traits and utilities, and then you pick up the weapons that support that playstyle. Which does make it distinct from, say, thief or guardian, where it is more practical to define a playstyle by the weapons used.

It also means that you generally don't get to see the full potential until you have unlocked everything, so leveling can be a bit boring - it wasn't until after I'd hit 80 that I actually started properly getting into it.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> I do. It would work well for thief if anyone has played bard in dnd.

>

> Especially with thiefs initiative system. The steal ability can be replaced with perform, thats based on your attack combo. Similar to hunting horn in monster hunter. Trade off stealth, to gain a strong bonus for the same duration, but keep sneak attacks. Itd make a high skill support. But knowing Anet, not a very powerful one.

>

> And this would really only work well if anet fixes thiefs initiative problem

Depends on the version of D&D you're looking at.

2nd edition D&D could do some of the out-of-combat thief stuff like picking locks, but in combat it behaved more like a fighter-mage than a thief: putting it more in mesmer's camp.

3rd edition D&D pushed them more into a buffing fighter-mage role. They have some hiding ability but, well, so does mesmer.

4th edition explicitly make bard arcane support ("leader" in 4E nomenclature, but it means support), while rogue was a martial DPS class.

5th edition I'm less familiar with, but on a casual observation, it seems to fit the trend. Bards and rogues have similar proficiencies, and from what I can see, rogues and bards still seem to behave very differently in combat. An Arcane Trickster rogue dabbles in illusion and enchantment, but that would be represented more by a thief moving more into mesmer territory than bard.

Furthermore, as referenced previously, the precedent in Guild Wars is for performers to be mesmers (when they're given a profession at all). The bard archetype - moderate fighting ability, spell loadout mostly focused on illusion, enchantment, and support effects, and a bit of sneakiness - would be far more suited to a support mesmer than to anything thief.

I was going to jump to guardian as well. For all that some weapons are considered "meta" more than others, all of their weapons are viable if backed up by the right traits, and both elite specialisations are viable and can significantly change your playstyle.

Considering that you're primarily looking for playstyle differences rather than role differences, thief would probably also be a good option to add to your stable: they're mostly locked into damage dealer roles, but there are a lot of ways they can do that, and the initiative system means that it's even possible to have substantially different playstyles with the same weapon by focusing on a different skill on that weapon. Necromancer is also good for having a variety of different playstyles: it's possibly the profession with the biggest differences between elite specialisations and core, and it has a range of builds even within each category.

After that... hrrrmn. Revenant possibly, although it's a little handicapped by the fact that you're generally limited to specific weapon sets. Elementalist, to me, generally feels like it's just different variations on the same theme. Warrior and mesmer feel like they're also basically about different variations on the same broad theme, and if anything mesmer tends to get playstyles taken away more often than it gets new playstyles added (don't get me wrong, mesmer is one of my favourite professions, but its playstyle does seem to be being increasingly pigeonholed into "thou must be built around generating clones and shattering them" over time, especially in PvP). Ranger and engineer both feel like they have one elite specialisation that really changes up how they play, while the other just adds another variation to the core playstyle.

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> I hoped them to come up with something different than what they did to Holo (aka just remove F5). I hope 3rd elite spec will have some different trade off than just removing F5.

Don't hold your breath.

ArenaNet does seem to be working towards a 'standardised' approach for what elite specialisations give up for each profession. Guardians have their core virtues replaced. Necromancers have Death Shroud replaced. Thieves have Steal replaced. Core Revenants now have an F2 to be swapped out. Warriors have their adrenaline mechanic shaken up, and now engineers have their F5 replaced.

This leaves ranger, elementalist, and mesmer, and I suspect mirage is being lined up for a new set of shatters as well (and possibly also being made so that it needs at least one clone to shatter). Elementalist arguably always has its attunement-switching mechanic changed up, but tempest can still play like a core elementalist if they choose not to overload. Ranger is the difficult one, since the druid tradeoff (losing pet stats) probably isn't appropriate for soulbeast.

I think the -300vit penalty trait was overkill, but the F5 substitution looks to be something ANet plans to be a standardised tradeoff.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Guaranteed Wardrobe Unlocks not good enough for you? :o

To be fair... I'm currently holding on to my Guaranteed Wardrobe Unlocks until I can complete the slow process of getting all the cheap stuff unlocked (example: crafting a bunch of bronze weapons the other day since the wardrobe didn't exist when I initially leveled crafting, and collecting a couple of sets of karma weapons a week or so ago). If you don't have all the cheap stuff unlocked, a Guaranteed Wardrobe Unlock could land you with something that's worth coppers or a few thousand karma - basically nothing, in other words.

Knife Tail Contracts, on the other hand, are guaranteed to get you something black lion exclusive, which probably means something that's _at least_ worth a few gold.

So I can definitely see people valuing the contracts more than a guaranteed unlock, depending on what's already in their wardrobe.

I usually aim to do it on Dragon's Stand Event Completer days. There's usually active maps then, the problem is that sometimes the map gets finished late so the ~20 minute "collect your rewards period" overlaps with what would otherwise be the start of the next cycle and delays it.

Probably more likely to be a mesmer elite than a thief elite in the Guild Wars setting.

And it would probably be Minstrel. :P

Because portal was pretty much obligatory for mesmer in PvP. ArenaNet didn't like that it was essentially obligatory and nerfed it, forgetting that portal plays have historically been what keeps mesmer worth taking into sPvP when whichever build was the flavour of last month gets splattered by the nerfbat.

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > Legends are for roles. Ventari is the healer role. Go use another legend for your damage role. Or do you not understand the purpose behind roles?

> > > >

> > > > what "role" is Dwarf?

> > >

> > > defense

> >

> > How so? explain

>

> I wouldn't call it defense. Rather bruiser. It's its role but needs better mechanics.

>

> Ventari has a good place IMO. The tablet destruction should be removed though and just teleport it back to you, add a stunbreak on the cleanse skill and the spec would be golden.

Or just make the tablet resummon/reform on your location automatically.

The one concern I'd have is that if the difference in pips between winning and losing became lower, it might encourage more botting. Botting is largely incentivised by the fact that getting any reward is better than the nothing you'd otherwise get at times you can't play: if the difference between a win or a loss could be as small as one pip, botting becomes comparatively more attractive.

What you could do is make the gain from a loss be 1 plus 1 for every hundred points. So 400-499 would grant 5 pips (as it does now), 300-399 would grant 4 (making the threshold of 400 a little less important - the current incentive to keep playing just sets people to give up if they don't think they can get 400), 200-299 can get the usual 3, and scores below 200 get fewer points than they currently do. So there's no point at which there isn't at least the incentive to try to push for the next hundred. Heck, the rare game where the loser also has 500+ points could get an extra pip or two as a consolation prize.

For the people who are more concerned about rating... honestly, a scaling rating gain/loss based on how much the losing team lost by would probably help provide them with an incentive as well. A 500-500 game which is decided by the tiebreak algorithm _probably_ should not be worth as much of a rating shift as a 50-500 kerbstomp.

(Although, on the topic, rating gains and losses really should also be based solely on the comparison of the average rating of each team, rather than the current system of comparing a player's personal rating against the average of the enemy team. A player with a high rating compared to the enemy team is usually in the position of having to carry a weaker team, often making it a hard game for them, but they have the most to lose and the least to gain.)

> @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> So, the way it works is always halved since we are able to immediately swap from Support mode to DPS mode (_this isn't true, we know that it doesn't work_).

> What I want to see with Revenant is being able to really change its playstyle based on Legend. This is none-existent. So what makes Revenant jack-of-all-trades? **Nothing**, literally nothing. Dwarf Stance doesn't synergize with the rest of Revenant's kit and Legends. As I said earlier - Hammer doesn't have a single trait related to it.

Dwarf actually synergises fairly well with Shiro (including Devastation) and Glint. Problem is that Shiro and Glint usually synergise even better _with each other,_ so Jalis tends to get overshadowed.

It's pretty clear that the role of dwarf is intended to be the tank legend. Whether it actually _succeeds_ at this is open for interpretation - the general consensus seems to be "no" or at least "not enough" - but that is the intent.

Ventari is the healer, Jalis is the tank, Shiro is the mobile DPS, and Mallyx is the condition specialist.

While I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to some small buffs, I think you're selling basically everything short here.

When talking melee weapons, sword and greatsword are clearly the straightforward DPS weapons, but mace and hammer are still good weapons, they just require a bit of trait investment to really shine. Mace (mace/shield especially) benefits from traits that trigger off Aegis or blocking, especially in a team situation. Hammer becomes really strong for soloing things in PvE when combined with the Zeal and Honor lines to boost symbols, although this isn't the only situation where it's useful: a lot of people seem to hate on hammers in general because they have relatively few "push2-5 to do more damage" skills, but that's just not how hammers are designed.

When it comes to consecrations versus shouts:

This, I feel, is essentially a question of reactivity versus proactivity. Shouts are reactive: you can use them during or after something has happened in order to mitigate the situation. Consecrations, on the other hand, are proactive: they require a bit of thought about where you place them, remaining within a particular area afterwards, and while they _can_ be used in reaction to a situation (Purging Flames and Shelter especially) they often work better when used in advance. This makes them harder to use, but the payoff is that they're often more powerful when they are used correctly (and Master of Consecrations is probably an "easier" trait to just toss into your build than Pure of Voice).

As for the Virtue of Justice active...

It really shines (you could even say literally) when combined with Radiance and (naturally) Virtues. Spear of Justice might be technically stronger (especially when running solo), and ToJ is incomparable, but both of those have activation times: VoJ you can just pop off any time. You seem to be judging VoJ as only being good with sword or scepter because you're thinking of passive procs, but in situations where enemies are falling quickly, you can trigger VoJ every time you get credit for an enemy dying to generate a lot of burning, blinding, retaliation, and might. In PvP situations you naturally won't be getting kills every few seconds (unless maybe you're in a really intensive zergfight), but you can still activate it mid-stomp and hopefully blind a counterstomp ability.

Technically speaking, all of the weapon skills are all linked to a legend, so the more offensive staff skills show Ventari's warrior side. Surge of the Mists might even be a manifestation of centaur trample.

Ultimately, though, Ventari's biggest impact was his posthumous impact on the sylvari, not anything he did when he was just another centaur soldier.

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

> > >

> > > Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

> >

> > The thought did immediately strike me that if you were going for a protective rev, Jalis+Glint means you have good access to protection on Glint, and the 10% damage reduction (which stacks with protection) is also in the mix, although you can't provide both at the same time.

> >

> > It's also worth remembering that Firebrand has a fairly long cooldown on Tome of Courage - while they have access to decent support outside of ToC, you can't compare what a Firebrand can do with ToC up against what a revenant can do in a reasonably sustainable fashion.

>

> Swap out Dwarf for Ventari. What changed?

> That's the thing, Dwarf is replaceable here compared to firebrand which is also its own set of 8 skills. Dwarf has 6 skills. Ret as well if you count that as its specializations and Firebrand. Most of the best support on Rev comes from other sources. Defense wise what does it provide really? Not even comparing to other classes here. But Inhouse. ROTGD is not all that. On paper yes but not in action. Pure avoidance is best defense. A short duration damage reduction effect that don't even effect conditions in its stock form is not really all that good. In WvW that damage reduction won't really save you in a zerg due to how stacked offensive DPS is in this game. Also it's 40 energy cost and cast time lol. Genius. Inspired Reinforcement after the nerf is straight up trash. Doesn't last long, stationary in a movement oriented game. Short duration, you name it. FI is trash. Garbage. FB has it as well and better. It was a poorly done condition in the first place. And one of our forced kills pretty much does that. Only good from it is the slow.

Less damage reduction (except against projectiles), less stability, more healing, more alacrity.

I should note that I am _not_ saying that Jalis couldn't use some improvement, just that Jalis is always going to be part of a package, and it's not fair to compare _anything_ to a theoretical firebrand that remains in Tome of Courage permanently.

I think the OP is complaining because of a string of bad thief/mesmer teammates, not that (s)he thinks they're overpowered.

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> Please don't blame the Thief for being bad. He is depending on you and your other teammates to be smart and to do your jobs so he can do his.

This. Applies to both decappers (can't decap anything if your team is so bad that the enemy can afford to watch all the points because they're not being seriously contested anywhere) and support builds (no point supporting teammates that can't achieve anything no matter how much support you offer).

It _is_ annoying when you get stealthed by a mesmer or thief (or engineer) and lose/fail to cap the point because of it. That's probably more of a problem with stealth mechanics in general, though - would be nice if there was something you could do to deliberately drop stealth (special action key, perhaps?).

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

>

> Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

The thought did immediately strike me that if you were going for a protective rev, Jalis+Glint means you have good access to protection on Glint, and the 10% damage reduction (which stacks with protection) is also in the mix, although you can't provide both at the same time.

It's also worth remembering that Firebrand has a fairly long cooldown on Tome of Courage - while they have access to decent support outside of ToC, you can't compare what a Firebrand can do with ToC up against what a revenant can do in a reasonably sustainable fashion.