draxynnic.3719

> @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

> > > >

> > > > A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

> > > >

> > > > It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

> > >

> > > You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

> > >

> > > I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What _would_ be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

> > >

> > > Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

> > >

> > > But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

> >

> > Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

> >

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

>

> Except the "trade off" for running soulbeast **but** never merging is that you're stuck with a mediocre traitline.

>

> If you never intend on merging, you're better off with not running soulbeast in the first place. People blatantly ignore the fact that while the merge mechanic is just a simple add-on (let me just make that blatantly clear, because it is), everything else that comes with the spec is kinda meh. Including the weapon. Dolyak Stance is about the only good thing about it.

>

> Removal of pet(s) should have been done to druid, so they could actually revamp the spec to be a proper functional and viable support outside PvE with the trade off of not having a pet. Soulbeast on the other hand could have been permamerged with the option to swap between two merged pets, but at that point Anet would have pretty much been admitting that the pet mechanic is a failure, which it is.

Like I've said, the inherent tradeoff of not having another core traitline is one that's often overlooked.

Thing is, it's the case for guardian as well. Guardian core traitlines are pretty good, and like I said, they each have a lot of synergy within them with other traitlines.

Firebrand? One full line of traits is supporting tomes. Another is about becoming a substitute for Chronomancer for quickness application in raids and world events. If you're not making heavy usage of tomes or building around throwing a lot of Quickness around, I can guarantee you you can find a better core traitline for what you are doing than Firebrand. Dragonhunter is a bit more versatile, but honestly, if you're packing Dragonhunter, you're doing it for the physical virtues, the traps, or the longbow (usually the traps) - if you're not, you can do better with another traitline. Possibly _any_ core traitline.

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> They do have trade offs. However, for Firebrands the trade off is not nearly enough. Generally, elite specs end up having a stronger mechanic than the one that they give up. For example, reaper shroud is just better than core shroud. Though you do lose the ranged capability of core shroud. (I know core shroud is out of whack in PvP balance atm, but that will probably be hotfixed quickly.)

>

> I think that DH giving up core virtues for DH virtues is pretty equivalent to reaper giving up core shroud. Both are an increase in power, but it seems to be kinda reasonable. If you still believe that DH virtues are a bit too strong, I would argue that the core virtues should be buffed a bit because they are very bland. However, Firebrand is just ridiculous. You give up 3 mediocre skills and you almost get the equivalent of 3 shrouds. It's just insane and I don't know how the devs thought this was a good idea. The trade off is simply by far the most lopsided one. Anet either need to make you choose which tome you will be using, or they have to remove virtue passives and weapon swap. Either way, tomes would need a complete rebalancing so they can work under those circumstances.

When I see this sort of thing, I kinda wonder if the person saying it has actually seen how strong _instant activation_ core virtues can be in PvP scenarios.

Consider Justice, for instance. With the right picks in Radiance and Virtues, you blind enemies within 240, gain light aura and retaliation, grant burning on the next hit to allies within 600, grant might to allies within 1200, immobilise the next enemy you hit, all without taking the place of another action or having a visual tell that will cause people to see what killed them and complain about it on the forum, all on a 17s recharge... which refreshes if you score a kill. If the enemy blocks or dodges, the charge remains until you do score a hit, unlike Spear of Justice. And, because it's instant activation and can be activated during another action for the blind, you can use that blind to cover for another action, including preventing stomp prevention during a stomp (which naturally recharges the skill) or simply as a panic button (remember the old Blinding Dissipation? Same principle).

Given that Valor is pretty much stapled onto every guardian PvP build, if you're running DH or FB, you're _not_ getting all this out of Justice, since you've given up Radiance, Virtues, or both to get the elite spec.

Or let's consider Courage. Just off the Virtues traitline, you've given Protection to allies within 1200 and Aegis and three stacks of Stability to allies within 600... oh, and Retribution to yourself. All on a shorter cooldown than the passive's natural refresh time (but Indomitable Courage decreases that refresh time), and this isn't considering whatever additional effects might be tied onto the aegis. Sure, Dragonhunter and Firebrand Courage can do something similar, with extra benefits... but on a longer cooldown, and with a cast time. This means it can be interrupted. This means you can't use them mid-stomp. This means you can't use them reactively - generally, by the time you see an area CC effect going off it's too late with the elite specs, but with core guardian, if you react fast enough you can block it with either the aegis or the stacks of stability. It also means you can't use it while stomping, but have to spend time to activate it before stomping - with the core version, you can do it mid-stomp to get a lot of protection while stomping (and you can add Justice as well if you're using Radiance and it's ready). It's not quite as unstoppable as a mesmer Distortion stomp, but it's pretty much the next best thing... and it's on a shorter cooldown and doesn't require clones to be out to get the full effect.

Resolve doesn't have much trait synergy to it, and Wings of Resolve certainly heals for more (although the gap isn't as big as it used to be)... but that 1s cast time can be fatal, especially since apart from removing Immobilise, the condition removal doesn't apply until the skill actually triggers. And since all the core virtues are instant activation, if you really need to you can chain Resolve with Courage (or a blind from Justice if running Radiance) while still fighting back with your other skills. And hey, if you REALLY need a reprieve, you can Renewed Focus for a few seconds of invulnerability and then _do it all again,_ although obviously that involves blowing a fair few cooldowns. On the other hand, it also means splashing a fair few buffs to your allies.

Seriously, the core guardian virtues might not be as flashy as DH virtues or tomes - but they do have their advantages which are lost when you pick up the elite specialisation, That's a tradeoff. The elite specialisation virtues are a bit stronger overall at baseline, but that's paid for by being locked into a traitline. The same is true for most other elite specialisations. Having access to Berserk or Full Counter is still more valuable than having core adrenaline mechanics for Warriors most of the time. Whatever you might think of Swipe versus Steal, the extra dodge mechanics on Daredevil more than make up for any shortfall there. And so on.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > > > Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

> > > > >

> > > > > I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What _would_ be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

> > > > >

> > > > > Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

> > > > >

> > > > > But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

> > > >

> > > > Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

> > >

> > > That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

> >

> > Not really. They're more _powerful_ than the core virtues, yes, but they require more time investment. Dragonhunter virtues are full skills with animations that prevent you from using another skill at the same time and can be interrupted, and usually go on full cooldown when they do - naturally, they're going to be more powerful when they do trigger, to account for teh risk of interruption and that you're not performing another skill while you do it. Tomes have an even stronger effect, but over a longer period of time, and two of them almost lock you out of offensive actions altogether while they're in effect.

> >

> > There's a sliding scale from a relatively low effect with zero time investment, through a moderate to strong effect with a similar time investment to most skills, to a sustained effect that replaced your weapon for as long as it lasts.

> >

> > Instant activation is not to be scoffed at. A lot of the current balance pass was all about toning down instant activations _for a reason._ Core guardian virtues aren't going to spike someone down, but with the right traits you can get a lot of mileage out of core virtues (as just one example, Indomitable Courage works better with core Virtue of Courage, since there's no chance of it being interrupted before the Stability triggers, and if can be fired to cover another skill or to cover a stomp), and if you really need a panic button you can chain through all three of them as quickly as you can press the buttons if you need to.

> >

> > Now, I haven't played the recent patch much, but in the previous meta, a well-played core guardian could be just as dangerous as a well-played dragonhunter, and a darn sight less predictable (you know what to expect when you see a DH on the enemy team - when you see a core guardian, there are a couple of approaches they could be taking). Firebrands were pretty dominant, although it's unclear how much of that was simply that it's advantageous to have a support and Firebrand was the best support - nevertheless, while everyone's damage and nearly everyone's healing got reduced in the latest patch, firebrand had its numbers pared down more than the average. However, when scourge was dominant, ArenaNet didn't go looking for tradeoffs because scourge already _had_ a tradeoff. So do the guardian elite specialisations. **You could make the argument that they're getting more than they're giving up, but there _is_ something they're giving up, so when it comes to intra-profession balancing the tradeoff is already there, it's just a matter of adjusting the numbers so that they're all reasonably equally attractive options rather than having a clear standout.**

>

> And we've circled back to this, which is the very argument that soulbeasts were trying to make with their pets prior to the real trade off being imposed on them. I agree that Spellbreaker and Scourge had distinct tradeoffs at the time of creation, but FB and DH need more. No body wants a trade off for their profession. Dwayna knows I want core F1 back on Berserker and the toughness penalty gone. as an aside old Berserker had a 'tradeoff' in that it lost Core F1s while in Berserk mode, and that wasn't considered enough by Anet now was it? What ever it is you feel is the current trade off for FB and DH, it is not enough relative to what is gained, as was the case for Berserker, Druid, Scrapper, or Soulbeast (and they got off light tbh).

>

>

You're completely missing the point, which @"Sorem.9157" and others succinctly laid out:

Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

Dragonhunter and Firebrand never could. As soon as you slot either, the core virtues are _gone._ That's the tradeoff.

You seem to be arguing that since the dragonhunter and firebrand virtues are apparently stronger, that the tradeoff doesn't matter... but this is a false equivalency. An easy tradeoff to accept because what you get is stronger than what you gave up is not the same as giving nothing up at all. (And I'd argue that the difference in strength is not as large as you seem to think. Instant activation opens up a lot of things you can do that you can't with DH or FB virtues.)

Furthermore, I think it's reasonable to expect the elite specialisation mechanics to be a little bit stronger than the core mechanics, because there's one other tradeoff that often gets forgotten in these discussions - the core traitline that you could have taken _instead_ of the elite specialisation. It's easy to overlook for some professions because for some professions giving up a third core traitline is often not giving up much, but guardian has so many inter-traitline synergies that pretty much whatever your build is, you could probably find a third core traitline that significantly enhances it. As a result, if you're not actively using the stuff the elite specialisation gives you, it's probably not your best option. Which is something I've seen in the meta: core guardians in the past season were about as common and probably more dangerous than dragonhunters (firebrands are a different issue, but like I've said, they just took a notable hit - we'll see how things go in the current meta, but if they're still dominant, that's a numbers balancing issue, not a lack of tradeoff issue).

Similar observations apply regarding Necromancer, and core necromancer too has been seeing a comeback - not because a tradeoff was introduced, because they're already _was_ one, but simply because reaper and scourge got pared back and core necromancer buffed up so they were brought back to a reasonably even footing.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

> > > >

> > > > A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

> > > >

> > > > It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

> > >

> > > You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

> > >

> > > I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What _would_ be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

> > >

> > > Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

> > >

> > > But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

> >

> > Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

> >

> > Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

>

> That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

Not really. They're more _powerful_ than the core virtues, yes, but they require more time investment. Dragonhunter virtues are full skills with animations that prevent you from using another skill at the same time and can be interrupted, and usually go on full cooldown when they do - naturally, they're going to be more powerful when they do trigger, to account for teh risk of interruption and that you're not performing another skill while you do it. Tomes have an even stronger effect, but over a longer period of time, and two of them almost lock you out of offensive actions altogether while they're in effect.

There's a sliding scale from a relatively low effect with zero time investment, through a moderate to strong effect with a similar time investment to most skills, to a sustained effect that replaced your weapon for as long as it lasts.

Instant activation is not to be scoffed at. A lot of the current balance pass was all about toning down instant activations _for a reason._ Core guardian virtues aren't going to spike someone down, but with the right traits you can get a lot of mileage out of core virtues (as just one example, Indomitable Courage works better with core Virtue of Courage, since there's no chance of it being interrupted before the Stability triggers, and if can be fired to cover another skill or to cover a stomp), and if you really need a panic button you can chain through all three of them as quickly as you can press the buttons if you need to.

Now, I haven't played the recent patch much, but in the previous meta, a well-played core guardian could be just as dangerous as a well-played dragonhunter, and a darn sight less predictable (you know what to expect when you see a DH on the enemy team - when you see a core guardian, there are a couple of approaches they could be taking). Firebrands were pretty dominant, although it's unclear how much of that was simply that it's advantageous to have a support and Firebrand was the best support - nevertheless, while everyone's damage and nearly everyone's healing got reduced in the latest patch, firebrand had its numbers pared down more than the average. However, when scourge was dominant, ArenaNet didn't go looking for tradeoffs because scourge already _had_ a tradeoff. So do the guardian elite specialisations. You could make the argument that they're getting more than they're giving up, but there _is_ something they're giving up, so when it comes to intra-profession balancing the tradeoff is already there, it's just a matter of adjusting the numbers so that they're all reasonably equally attractive options rather than having a clear standout.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

> > >

> > > A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

> > >

> > > It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

> >

> > You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

> >

> > I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What _would_ be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

> >

> > Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

> >

> > But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

>

> Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

>

> Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

Bingo. Just as berserker could always just choose _not_ to use berserk mode and just use regular adrenaline burst skills... well, until it couldn't. Dragonhunter and firebrand never could choose to use the core virtues - they were outright replaced.

That's pretty much how it's been with all the tradeoffs. It's about there being something that the core version of the profession can do that the elite specialisation couldn't. Berserker, herald, renegade, scrapper, druid, soulbeast, daredevil, tempest, chronomancer - in each of those cases, there was really nothing that the core profession could do that the elite specialisation couldn't, apart from being able to have three core traitlines. Note the exceptions there - Spellbreaker lost the ability to use more than one bar of adrenaline at a time, Deadeye had Steal reworked, Weaver has a global cooldown on attunement swapping. These don't _need_ a tradeoff because there was one built into the elite specialisation from the beginning.

Meanwhile, berserker has lost regular adrenaline burst skills. Scrapper lost the F5 toolbelt. Druid lost some damage on pets. Soulbeast lost petswap. Daredevil had Steal swapped with Swipe - a sidegrade more than anything else. Revenant had something _added_ to core.

Reaper lost the more ranged-oriented Death Shroud in exchange for the melee-oriented Reaper Shroud. Dragonhunter lost instant-activation virtues for the more "physical" dragonhunter virtues -which, yes, are more powerful, but which take time to activate (time that you're not spending doing something else) and can be interrupted.

These are the tradeoffs. Whether some of the options are _better_ than others is a separate balance consideration.

Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

>

> > Do you want to know the likelihood that I will go an entire ranked match without casting RotGD a single time?

> >

> > 

>

> There's also this thing where RotGD has a **CAST TIME**

> A Stunbreak with a cast time is just useless.

>

> It could cost literally nothing and still be useless because people who usually drop CC has some follow up CC or other players are also laying down CC.

> If yur lying on the ground with no Stability or anything, this is gonna get interrupted as well.

>

A Stunbreak with a cast time which has a cover (Stability, evade frames, block frames, invul frames) is not useless. After all, the Shiro stunbreak everyone is so attracted to has a cast time, it's just that the cast time is protected by an evade. The new trait makes it so that all the stunbreaks now also provide protection against restunning, if you take the trait.

RotGD as a stunbreak got improved. The problem is that the amount of CC hasn't been reduced as much as advertised, and the reduction of anti-CC available through the removal of Empty Vessel and Retribution's stab-on-evade as well as the increase in the cost of Riposting Shadows has made revenant more of a bowling pin pretty much whatever build you run. Glaring Resolve makes RotGD and Pain Absorption more practical to use as stunbreaks, but does not compensate for the CC protection that's been lost.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> I thought we would be allowed free movement while it warms up.

>

> It's a straight up animation lock.

>

> Big bad.

Yeah, having tried it, that lock is just bad. As well as slowing down the potential for an interrupt, it also pretty much kills it as a mobility skill - the fast movement once the skill animates doesn't compensate for the lock. If you could still move while it winds up (and the windup has a visible tell) that would be a whole different story.

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

>

> It's also worth noting Charr pioneered the Engineer class.

Yes, and your point is? That's well known. The point is that just because an Engineer does something doesn't mean that what they're doing was invented by the charr. A lot of it is, to be sure, but if you're looking at something that logically requires golem parts (drones and most automated turrets) or some other deliberate use of magic, there's a good chance you're looking at some other race's contribution. The charr pioneered the profession (in its current form, anyway - there were engineers back in GW1 that were probably more advanced than the charr at the time, but back then it was more of a "someone who builds and maintains machines" rather than the GW2 concept of the engineer), but that doesn't mean that everything the profession uses was invented by the charr.

Which is the point I was making: just because something appears in the Engineer's list of gadgets, explosives, and potions doesn't mean it was invented by a charr, and, by extension, the use of magic in some engineer skills does not mean that use of magic is commonplace in charr technology.

(Yes, scrappers have drones and the original scrappers were charr salvage specialists, but what they were salvaging from included a lot of asura tech.)

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

>

> Energy.

>

> Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

>

> But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

>

> Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

>

> Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

>

> Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.

> Jalis' cost 50 Energy.

> Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP

> Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

> @"Drizzt.1796" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > > Revenant: Asura (quick to study a weird new form of magic), Human (gods, connections with history and the Mists, etc.), Norn (Raven, legends, defending the Mists).

> >

> > Not sure about asura messing around with the legends of other races, to be honest, nor about taking a melee-oriented profession. Sylvari might pick it up specifically to go Ventari, and we know Rytlock has been spreading it among the charr, so there probably are a few of those, even if intuitively I'd expect charr to find revenants a bit iffy.

>

> I'd think that an asura would go revenant to discover lost lore (possibly implying that they are in the priory) to spread, or just experiment.

>

Agreed, but I think it'd be something that they'd do specifically because it's related to their "day job", rather than being something particularly common. So an asura historian might become a revenant as a means of getting direct access to sources (although there are some question marks over how reliable revenant legends would be as a source) or a researcher of the Mists might take it up for reasons that should be obvious, but an asura that didn't have a specific reason to become one probably wouldn't. While for humans, sylvari, and norn, I could see it being a religious or quasi-religious thing.

Essentially, I don't think you'd see many asura revenants where the power source of a revenant isn't somehow relevant to their job. But you might get a norn revenant who's simply a hunter who became a revenant because he wanted to honour past legends. Or a human soldier who's a devout follower of Kormir who became a revenant because she felt that channeling legends related to Abaddon's followers and those who fought against them would bring her a greater understanding of her god. Or a sylvari craftsman who generally doesn't seek combat at all, but because a revenant so he could commune with Ventari, and possibly other legends he considers worthy, as he meditates.

Of course, with the revenant being a profession that arrived so recently, most revenants at the moment are probably primarily motivated by "this will give me greater power to use against the minions of the Elder Dragons". Give it a few generations, though, and I suspect most "incidental" revenants - those who are revenants despite it not being directly related to their career, or at least having a career where other fighting professions would have been just as useful - would turn out to be humans, sylvari, and norn.

I think part of the reason eles are being hit in the next update is because at the moment, bunker weavers are a pretty strong build however low their base defensive stats are, and with damage being reduced across the board, they'd probably become basically impossible to kill if their sustain wasn't pared back in kind.

I think that's something that needs to be kept in mind with the upcoming changes: pretty much _everyone's_ being hit. Power skills are being reduced by an average of about a third, and condition skills are also being nerfed, albeit in a less direct fashion. This necessitates a reduction in sustain to go with it - builds that are already relatively weak when it comes to sustain are getting away without too much being filed back, but builds which have strong sustain in the current meta _need_ to be pared back so we don't fall into bunker wars in the new one.

There are acknowledgements that moving into a new paradigm means that there'll be winners and losers, and they'll need to keep a close eye on balance going into the new meta in case some of it is going too far. I suspect this is a large part of the reason why they _haven't_ gone ahead and dropped the patch in the middle of a season, which has become an unfortunate habit of theirs since PoF dropped. Ultimately, though, compared to the old meta, the new meta is going to be like _everyone_ has permanent protection with the possibility of getting super-protection on top.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > @"Xanthia.7209" said:

> > So I am going to preface this by saying I am not a huge lore buff, so I might recall some details incorrectly. However, this idea popped into my head and I enjoyed the thought so much I thought why not share it. And on the extremely rare chance I am even partially correct, atleast I get bragging rights to say I came with the idea first (atleast I couldn't find any discussions for this inane idea anyways). So with that outta the way, here is my theory.

> > While exploring the new map extension of Bjora I noticed that the devs went into the effort of implementing a Claw of Jormag that flies around the sky and roaring occasionally. You don't seem to be able to interact with it as far as I can tell, but it is a really nice feature to put in the environment. It was then it got me thinking, this map now not only has a Claw of Jormag, but Drakkar throughout the story is repeatable refer to as its "mouthpiece". Interesting phrasing. I guess you could say..... Drakkar is its voice....a "Voice" of Jormag. I think you see what I am getting at.

> >

> > For some reason or other Jormag has both a Voice and a Claw. Similar to that of the Kodan and their belief system with Koda. Isn't it also interesting that there is SUCH an emphasis on the kodan whenever Jormag is involved. It is the kodan who are holding the line in Bitterfrost frontier, it is they who shut themselves out from the rest of the world in Still Waters Speaking to prevent the whispers from spreading father. Now of course an easy explanation is because of course they are the only ones you would interact this far up north-no other race is this far north since the norn fled. And yet, during the meta event on the new map Jormag says it themselves.....they are trying to help the kodan and the norn. Why so specific? Why not just say "I am trying to help you all." Why specifically call out the kodan. It almost as if they have a deeper connection with one another *wink wink*

> >

> > Another thing I would like to point out, is the tendency for the Voice of Koda to go ....insane during their duties. Recall if you will from vanilla gw2 maps like Frostgourge Sound where you have events like "passifying"(beating the kitten out of) the Voice at one of their floating sanctuaries when they go beserk. Hell I think even one of the dungeons, Honor the Waves, even touches on that as a plot point where you attempt to rescue the Voice only to find out later they've been turned by Jormag. So it seems it is pretty common for the Voice of Koda to eventually go insane upon listening to it after awhile. Know who also makes you go insane when you listen to it's whispers? That's right...Jormag. Hell in this patch alone we have not one but TWO examples of this happening. The first we hear about Ushers-In-Spring who was the Voice of Still Waters Speaking who attempted to listen to the whispers and was turned. The second being the norn scholar you follow while doing the achievement "A Hunger for Knowledge" where we find them dead after mistakenly listening to Jormag's voice because they thought it was a friend's. It seems curious how Jormag and Koda seems so alike in how they operate doesn't it. Both how their own Voice and Claw, both whisper knowledge and guidance, and both will eventually make you crazed by their whispers.

> >

> > So I know what you are thinking, no-they cannot be the same, surely the kodan themselves would be able to tell the difference between Koda speaking to them and Jormag right? Once again this patch explains it very well. That norn scholar I mentioned earlier, recall how I said that the reason they died was cause they mistakenly thought the voice they were listening to was their friend's voice. So we know that Jormag can change their voice to sound like basically ....anyone they want. A friend..... a family member... maybe even Koda itself?

> >

> > So my theory is simply that either Jormag is essentially Koda, or at the very least highly connected and intertwined with Koda (maybe Koda is a piece of Jormag like (spoilers the Whisper of Jormag end spoilers). There are just too many similarities between the two for it to just to be a coincidence. Now I am going to leave the post here for now cause I actually have to go to work. XD Hope you enjoy reading my stupid idea.

>

> I love where you're going with this and I'm open to this possibility. However, there is a detail hidden within this theory that the playerbase has long abandoned. It goes something like this: If Koda is an aspect of Jormag and, therefore, Jormag _is_ Koda, then it is entirely possible that the Spirits of the Wild are aspects of Jormag, such that they _are_ Jormag; and, last but by no means least, that means that...

>

> The human gods may be aspects of the Elder Dragons and, if so, the Elder Dragons _are_ the human gods. The latter possibility is raised by [Varajar Fells](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Varajar_Fells) and excluded by [Dragons and Gods](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragons_and_Gods), or so it would seem.

>

> What I have outlined is impossible to avoid, should you embrace the idea that Koda is Jormag. And don't get me wrong: I'm not here to tell you not to correlate Koda, the Spirits of the Wild, or the human gods, with the Elder Dragons. In fact, I find the constant broaching of topics such as this, in which players try to associate the races' greater powers with the Elder Dragons, forms compelling evidence that the gods and the dragons are somehow related. However, I recommend that you adopt the simplest explanation at this point: As Dragons and Gods reveals, even if there is a correlation between greater powers and the Elder Dragons, there is no direct evidence demonstrating as much and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that, somehow, Koda and Jormag are distinct. It falls to us to understand why they are different.

>

> Here's a take that might help you to discern a difference: The kodan are fighting against Jormag and those who have complete mastery of their minds do not easily form pacts with Jormag. If Koda really was Jormag, we would expect that the entire kodan race would be easily corrupted by the Elder Dragon and that we would not meet so many of their kind who actively resist the serpent's influence.

>

> I encourage you to explore the other side of the mystery (the idea that Koda is somehow distinct from Jormag) that you have touched-upon, so that whatever position you take, you demonstrate through eloquence of writing and fair-mindedness why other players should adopt your viewpoint.

The Varajar Fells things seems to be a result of the alliance between the human gods, the Forgotten, and Glint. The aspects are fundamentally equivalent to those in Glint's lair, except that the Facet of Elements - which possibly once represented Abaddon - is replaced by the Facet of Spirit, representing Kormir.

One of the important things to note about the human gods is that they explicitly came from somewhere _else._ As a result, the strongest connection that can realistically be made is that the gods were a more benign equivalent to the Elder Dragons from the world they came from.

Koda, by contrast, seems to be a native to Tyria. Therefore, the case made here could apply to Koda (a Tyrian native deity) while not applying to the human gods (aliens to Tyria, or at least in the case of gods that have ascended since they arrived, the divine power that makes them gods is alien to Tyria).

That said, I do think it's more likely that the coincidences are accidental, or even that similarities in names comes from the kodan themselves using terms from their culture to apply to analogues among Jormag's minions.

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> Obviously, a good RP idea can make any race work with any class. But some combinations do seem to come more naturally than others.

>

> Ranger: Sylvari (obviously), Human (Melandru), Charr (Blood Legion was the first to tame devourers), Norn (hunters of legend), Asura (they love their dancing moas).

Not sure the odd dancing moa really makes the asura a ranger-heavy culture. All things considered, asura are probably the most urban of the races - asura rangers will certainly _exist,_ but I wouldn't call them a natural combination.

>

> Engineer: Charr (they invented the profession), Asura (they love to tinker).

Human engineers are also fairly common. Human technology isn't as advanced as charr or asura, but they're trying to catch up, and most human factions have some form of grenadier at the very least.

>

> Thief: Sylvari (Night Bloom), Human (lower class + circus = daredevil), Norn (Snow Leopard), Charr (Ash Legion).

Yup. However, you're missing asura "acquisition agents". The Inquest makes heavy usage of thieves, and it's a fighting style that theoretically minimises the disadvantage of being small.

>

> Necro: Human (Grenth), Charr (Ash Legion has a long history with necros), Norn (Raven), Asura (Oola, Synergetics, etc.).

Yep. It's also worth noting the supposed connection between necromancy and golemancy, although whether Oola was on the mark with that one is open to interpretation.

>

> Mesmer: Asura (Synergetics experimenting with reality), Human (Lyssa, Jennah, Anise, Kasmeer...), Norn (Raven).

Yup, although sylvari mesmers don't seem to be all that uncommon either, especially among the Nightmare Court.

>

> Elementalist: Charr (Flame Legion shamanism), Asura (Magic + Explosions = MAGIC EXPLOSIONS!).

I'd put humans above charr here, especially considering the Flame Legion isn't technically playable. Humans have a long history with elemental magic. I'd also note that sylvari elementalists are also pretty common, which isn't all that surprising - if you want to focus on magic, elementalism is the most nature-oriented magic.

>

> Warrior: Every race has its grunts. Pick your poison.

Possibly not so much as you might think. Asura mostly rely on golems for the grunts, and asura warriors are, therefore, comparatively rare. Warden and Vigilant forces tend to rely on rangers for their frontline, indicating that warriors are relatively rare (there's also a discussion in the sylvari camp in Brisban Wildlands between another sylvari and a sylvari warrior, and the context implies that sylvari warriors - who's training, unlike most other professions, is pretty much _entirely_ oriented towards breaking stuff, even if they're doing so in order to protect something else - are few and far between).

>

> Guardian: Asura (they like magic with their melee), Human (gods), Sylvari (idealistic defenders following Ventari's code).

Not sure about asura, since while they'd probably prefer being a Guardian to a straight Warrior, most asura would still regard that as a golem's job. Wolf Norn are probably more likely to take the path of the guardian, since they're all about working with others.

>

> Revenant: Asura (quick to study a weird new form of magic), Human (gods, connections with history and the Mists, etc.), Norn (Raven, legends, defending the Mists).

Not sure about asura messing around with the legends of other races, to be honest, nor about taking a melee-oriented profession. Sylvari might pick it up specifically to go Ventari, and we know Rytlock has been spreading it among the charr, so there probably are a few of those, even if intuitively I'd expect charr to find revenants a bit iffy.

Kinda depends on just how much the new traits apply - ArenaNet hasn't given us any actual numbers, after all. Removing dependence on critical hits does open up some space in builds in theory, but in practice I think Viper's will still be the gold standard for condi DPS in PvE - I think the only set that gives Expertise and Condition Damage without also giving Precision is Trailblazer's, and for the DPS role power and precision is still more valuable than toughness and vitality. If we get a CD/Power/Expertise set, maybe, but even then I'm not sure people wouldn't just default to Viper's anyway.

But yeah, the changes are definitely going to make the lack of condition alternatives more stark, especially for heralds and core revs. Rampant Vex and Abyssal Chill meant that sword became a quasi-hybrid with traits, but most of that interaction will be lost.

> @"Jthug.9506" said:

> Also of note the corruption rework is going to nerf torment damage by 10%, but also grant additional outgoing torment stacks on legend swap. Still 10% is a pretty large loss and will likely not be made up for by the additional stacks. However there will also be a flat 120 condition damage added so maybe overall a buff?

There's also the matter of losing Rampant Vex, which also means the loss of some Torment stacks. Whether the Torment on legend swap will make up for that is a bit of an unknown, but it's possible that the number of stacks that a revenant can keep on an enemy will actually decrease.

Strictly speaking, Annulment is still in _now,_ but will be removed from sPvP when the balance patch lands.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Buran.3796" said:

>

> > Entirely disagree.

> >

> > Shiro used to provide high sustained movement speed, enhanced damage in the otherwise mediocre heal and superspeed which made the abhorrently slow weapons from the class (specially hammer and mace) somewhat playable vs hoomans.

> >

> > Now the still entirely mediocre heal provides less heal and less damage, you need spent trait to move slower than before with Impossible Odds and that skill no longer provides superspeed so you need essentially afk players to land a Phase Smash or Drop the Hammer on anyone (not to mention that any Mesmer, Thief or Ranger gains free interrupts on Revs any time they wield a mace or a hammer, making them essentially useles in PvP). Also, due no longer superspeed on demand, harvesting ore, plants and logs do requiere to spent money in enhanced gathering tools.

>

> >

>

> This is the first time I've heard people using Shiro's Superspeed buff to play HAMMER builds.

>

> I thought people used Superspeed to rotate PvP super fast and it's basically a get out of jail free card when it comes to people trying to tag yu with cripple spam.

>

> Unless yu meant Quickness, which explains yur mention of gathering tools.

>

> I think Impossible Odds have been crippled to the point that the Energy Cost isn't even that great anymore for a simple double strike effect.

>

> It used to still be highly prized for Superspeed when Quickness for removed but they removed that too.

>

>

Feels like you're both misinterpreting each other when you're actually agreeing.

Buran was talking about how Impossible Odds interacted with hammer back when it granted quickness (even if Buran said superspeed instead). Quickness turns the slow attack speed of hammer skills into something actually practical, which when combined with other parts of Shiro's kit made Shiro probably the best synergy with hammer, at least if you're planning to go on the offensive.

Conversely, I don't think Buran realised that when you said "DRUMROLL PLEASE: Nerf Shiro" that you were actually criticising ArenaNet's decisions to balance revenant by nerfing Shiro via sarcasm rather than agreeing with that approach.

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > @"Arkantos.7460" said:

> > ithink you can still conert chill into torment, so make a Frozenherald

>

> Unfortunately after the changes to Call to anguish (now a leap with no torment application and only single chill applied) that trait lost it's value. The other sources of chill are either too small or too costly (banish enchatment post upcoming balance patch) to use as a viable torment source.

I think Banish Enchantment is going to get that synergy back, though, since that's going to be inflicting three packets of Chill. Whether that makes it worth using is another question. Conversely, the changes to Precision Strike look like they'll reduce the potential to hit one target with three stacks of Chill, but replace it with more potential to inflict AoE Chill, which might bring back some functionality for the trait with sword.

But sword as a quasi-condi weapon is massively losing out through the loss of Rampant Vex.

Best case scenario for condi core revs and heralds as an alternative to just running double mace is probably going to be a similar approach to condi mesmers using sword - the weapon itself is there for defensive and/or mobility purposes while the condition application comes from another source. But even then, application of damaging conditions on legends other than Mallyx is pretty weak - Glint has Elemental Blast, while Renegede has Razorclaw's It-Would-Probably-Be-A-Buff-If-This-Was-Just-Removed-And-The-Space-Left-Blank-So-People-Don't-Accidentally-Waste-Energy-On-It.

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I support adding condi to staff. Shortbow is an elite spec weapon. There are two specs (core and herald) that cannot use it, and it's absurd if your core profession cannot have a full set of condi weapons. Offhand axe barely fits the role coupled with mace, but after that? There's literally nothing. Shield, hammer, sword (both main and offhand) are all power weapons. Staff has 0 condies on it.

Shield isn't a power weapon - neither of its skills do any damage at all. It's purely a sustain option. Which does have the effect that it's equally (in)effective for both power and condition builds...

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> Now... try and solve the problem without power creep.

Create a new weapon.

Aside from that, though... a lot of revenant weapons are or are going to be in a position where a bit of buffing is what they need. Hammer is almost unseen out of WvW pirate meta and PvE situations where you need a ranged weapon and that's what you've got. Condi shortbow is a meme (power shortbow can be made to work, since overall shortbow is a hybrid and the poorly functioning skills are where most of the condition weighting is).

I probably wouldn't go adding to staff, sword, or mace, since they're all doing okay. Shortbow skills 2 and 3 need fixing, and making hammer a hybrid weapon at the cost of some straight power damage might well be a more elegant solution to pirate ship meta than what they're doing.

> @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> The war economy son.

>

> You have to remember that in effect, the iron legion is an entire state focused 100% on technological advancements.

>

> Now in our own history times of war seem to be the greatest motivators for technological advances.(e.g. walkie talkies and the internet)

>

> Now consider the iron legion has been doing this none stop since at least the end of the charr civil war. 1 + 1 = 2

It is worth noting that the "war accelerates technological development" trope is a bit of a misunderstanding of what's actually going on.

If anything, war actually slows it down. However, what usually happens is that during times of peace, you have the 'blue sky' research that doesn't have any immediate payoff, but which sets the stage for future payoffs. Wartime, however, tends to cause a shift in priorities towards things which have the prospect of delivering a result in time to make a difference in the war. So you tend to see a lot of new technologies being introduced in wartime, but these are usually culminations of projects which had been being worked on during years of peace, while projects that _don't_ offer the prospect of a war-relevant payoff get put on hold. The net result is actually to slow scientific development, as people who aren't working on immediate payoff projects get sent elsewhere, sometimes even onto the front lines where they end up dead (Karl Schwarzschild being one example I can think of off the top of my head).

Jet aircraft, which WW2 is often credited for, is one example. Germany flew a prototype jet before the war, and had a prototype fighter in '41 - but they chose not to develop the He280 at the time because they thought the war would be over in a year because at the time they expected the war to be over in a German victory before enough of them could be deployed to make a difference. It was only when it became clear that wasn't the case that they started taking jets seriously.

Now, in the case of the Iron Legion... they're in a bit of an interesting position in that they've been at war pretty much constantly, but from their perspective it's been more of a long-term, low -intensity conflict that mostly doesn't present a clear existential threat, so they're probably practical enough to keep their blue-sky development going. The foundation of the Pact resulted in a few breakthroughs, but that's mostly a matter of bringing the different technologies and ideas of multiple races together. (Apart from the Iron Legion tanks and armoured cars, most of what we see in Orr is stuff that might have started from Charr prototypes, but required input from other races to actually make it _work._)

I think the main theory behind Phase Smash is being able to perform blast finishers at range. It also provides a few evasion frames, adding further defensive capabilities. What it _doesn't_ provide is a means of opening or maintaining a gap, but I'd argue that it doesn't really need one - most legends offer a mobility option, a knockback, or some other means to engage effectively in close combat, and revenant is a soldier profession after all.

Main issues are probably the slowness of skill 5 and the autoattack - particularly the autoattack. Having such a slow autoattack breaks synergies with so much other revenant stuff, especially since Impossible Odds became additional strikes after every hit rather than quickness. ArenaNet obviously had a certain theme in mind when they made revenant hammer, and it's not an altogether bad theme, but a weapon that slow does _not_ work with the rest of revenant's kit.

There are also the various bugs with skill 2 to consider.

I wouldn't call hammer 4 useless - it's a projectile block that also provides lifesteal comboes. I _think_ it also triggers a combo when used with Phase Smash.

I would note that it is fair to say that the use of magic in charr technology is mostly incidental. It's based on chemistry and, well, engineering, and while some of their inventions work better than a similar invention would in the real world due to magical properties of the materials used. However, the charr aren't deliberately using magic, they're just using the most effective materials they have access to, and the fact that they're so effective _because_ of magic is incidental.

It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

Broadly speaking, charr technology is probably better regarded as steampunk (clockwork-punk according to Arenanet) - Tyria's magic is just the explanation for why the steampunk tropes work.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> I think Revenant is also due for more weapon options, and not through specs.

>

> If yu compare Revenant to every other Profession which doesn't feature unique mechanics which bolster their available skill set (talking about professions like Engi and Ele, and lowkey Thief due to their unique Ammo mechanic), Revenant is left with technically the lowest amount of combinations.

>

> I think this alone is an issue, because Devs are left buffing the chicken out of these remaining weapons, which lead to them being so strong that Legends are often hit to force Revs to have lesser Energy to use these weapons.

>

> I'm just wondering if we could have more options for weapons, like Mainhand Axe, Offhand Mace, just to give us a little more options to play with.

>

> These weapons could be Power or Condi or utility or whatever, but if we have more variety, there won't be a need to overload the small pool of weapons to make Rev not feel weak.

>

> Especially now since utilities are getting major Energy nerfs, Revs are gonna rely more and more on weapons to engage in combat, and every single Rev weapon right now are kinda clunky to use or are gonna get nerfed as well (SotM is one of Rev's major damage moves, Shackling Wave, Fissure, just for a few examples)

>

> There's nothing for Revs to fallback on, besides maybe weapon AAs.

>

Pretty much. Apart from the introduction of the trident, the revenant weapon choices still bear the hallmarks of the original design of being a non-weaponswap profession like the Ele and Engi. Which means that at the moment, core revenant has weapon purposes that only have _one_ weapon that fills that purpose - for instance, they only have one core ranged weapon, and only one weaponset that's designed to be used with a condi build (sword gets used, but mostly because it's the least bad option and has decent synergy with Corruption traits, but that synergy is going to be substantially reduced in the update).

This creates two problems as a profession:

The first is that you have a weaponswap profession where for some builds, you can't really get a good swap for them.

The second is that the profession becomes _very_ sensitive to changes made to a single weapon. Hammer nerfs for the sake of WvW, for instance, have (combined with the generally poor showing of renegede) made revenant into essentially a melee-obligatory profession in sPvP for years. If there are a couple of weapons that can fill the role, however, then if one gets a heavy nerf, then people can switch to the other until and unless the dead weapon gets restored.

It's why I generally advocate for core revenant to get a ranged condition-oriented weapon, since it essentially fills both gaps with one weapon.

There is stuff floating around, although I can't remember where it all is - some of it is in interviews and things, which are hard to find nowadays.

Broadly speaking, it's a combination of need and opportunity.

The opportunity is that after the dwarfs left, and before the dredge had really started expanding and trying to lock down everything the dwarfs had left behind, the charr were able to get into some of the dwarf outposts, fortifications, and mines close to the territory the charr now occupied (which, after the fall of most of Ascalon, included most of the eastern Shiverpeaks). So they were able to recover gunpowder and other dwarf technology and figure out how to use it themselves - and being more militaristic than the dwarfs, were faster to come up with the most efficient military uses for it (for instance, dwarfs in GW1 put explosives on ballistae, charr developed actual guns).

The need is that in the aftermath of overthrowing the Flame Legion, the charr wanted to minimise their reliance on magic, so they started actively looking for alternative means to achieve some of the firepower that they would otherwise rely on magic for.