draxynnic.3719

Honestly, when you have ritualist titles associated with both necromancers and revenants, perhaps the logical conclusion, rather than arguing for either to be invalid, is that _both_ have such ties?

Back in GW1, there were no links between necromancer and ritualist magic beyond the superficial - they were entirely separate professions, and couldn't be combined apart from through secondary professions. But things have changed since then. Professions have broadened. We have several cases of necromancers having abilities that would have been more associated with ritualists in the past, both in terms of skills available to players, and in things that happen in the lore or are performed by necromancer NPCs.

There's even a bit of an explanation for how this happened - there were interviews in 2013 where the fate of the Canthan and Elonian professions in core Tyria was discussed. Basically, when Lion's Arch was wiped out and Orr rose, it not only cut off contact with the rest of the world, it was also where most of Kryta's adepts of those professions were, being the most cosmopolitan city in Kryta. It didn't manage to wipe out those professions _entirely,_ since not everyone with that knowledge was in Lion's Arch at the time, but it did put a significant enough dent in the knowledge base so that the teachings of these professions were no longer able to remain as cohesive traditions in their own right, and instead the dribs and drabs that remained got merged with other professions with a similar focus.

Guardian we know, but which other profession can we think of that have a close interest in learning what it can about the other side of death?

Let's not forget that one of the purposes of elite specialisations is as a kind of replacement for secondary professions. There was nothing preventing you from running N/Rt in GW1 (in fact, that was the initial setup of my Necromancer). Nor was there anything even indicating that this was a frowned-on combination. All you've got is a few comments from a couple of individual Ritualist NPCs.

And to shift the topic a bit... yeah, shortbow for warrior would be an interesting way to pull off a samurai-themed warrior elite spec. Swords are already available and I don't think we're ever getting polearms at this stage, so an archery style that's more mobility-focused might well be a fitting way to represent a samurai theme. I don't think we'll see a heavily armoured warrior jumping around like a ranger or thief, though.

There is an argument that the more spiritual side of samurai might fit guardian better, but there's no reason they can't have one based on samurai mythology while the other is based on actual samurai history. The main concern would be the "there is more to the Far East than Japan" issue - Cantha, if anything, seems more based on China than Japan, although there is an argument to be made that this really only applies to Kaineng, and the Kurzicks are actually a weird Germanic-Japanese cross (Zu, for instance, is a German nobility particle, although strictly speaking the Kurzick houses should possibly have been using von instead - depends on whether the locations or the family names came first).

Professor Gai is one ritualist, who's apparently had to clean up after necromancers a few times. He's not an indication of what every Ritualist thinks, any more than Aidan being frustrated at Aziure means that every Ranger, or even every Ascalonian Ranger, hates Elementalists.

Excellent. I'll focus on finishing the previous chapter with my remaining characters in the meantime.

It did seem a bit weird that a location which seemed to be intended to be visited repeatedly was the only one that you always had to pay to get to, whatever the "It doesn't matter!" crowd tried to say.

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> Throwable laserbeans. You're feeding your enemy, but at the same time burning them. The legend is obviously going to be Legendary Pear Stuffed Nopal Stance.

No, no, no...

_Legendary Distraught Choya Stance._

> @"NaiveBayes.2587" said:

> **From my point of view:** Revenant was clearly designed by ANet to be the spiritual successor to the Ritualist and I think it's just wilful ignorance to think otherwise. It might not be so mechanically but that's because it had to be a soldier profession to complete the 3x3x3. It is anyway clear as day that this is the case. Any relation between ritualists and other professions before revenant was announced/released is just a lay-over from the fact that ANet put bits and pieces from GW1 professions that didn't make it into GW2 as their "own-thing". Once revenant came about though it was clearly design to be ritualist's successor, it even got a terrible spirit summoning spec... You can look into all the lore and history as much as you want but it really isn't that deep...

>

> **I really wish someone from ANet could just come here and put a nail in the coffin of this debate and just tell the community what's what**

Engineer is the spiritual successor to the Ritualist. In fact, the Ritualist existed at all because ArenaNet _wanted_ to make an engineer, but they couldn't justify bringing that level of technology into Guild Wars 1, so they found a way to make a fantasy equivalent instead. From memory, they repeated this in GW2's development and said that they saw the Engineer as the successor to the Ritualist playstyle.

There were a lot of threads before the HoT announcement with people suggesting that since the Dervish apparently could not be made playable in GW2 (since it was seen as being too closely tied to the gods) and the Ritualist also would not be reused (since the Engineer was its replacement), that Ritualist lore could be used to make a 'spirit warrior' profession that mimicked dervish avatars in a religiously-neutral way by summoning spirits into their own bodies. And then the Revenant got announced.

> @"Elric.4713" said:

> > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> >I just DO NOT want Rit on rev; I don't care how they justify it and I don't care how they try to sell it, do not shove that class into this one when this one already has its own issues. I trust it going to necromancer far more, because at least then I have confidence it could be done correctly and heck they could add in a ritualist head-piece for the light armor classes. Or even ritualist armor ..... there ya go.... But do not take my rev and shove togo in it as an elite spec... I don't think we can handle another kalla.

>

> If you can't get over the fact that you're playing the spiritual successor to Ritualists, well then there's eight other professions you can play.

>

If we're talking about spiritual successors, that's actually Engineer.

ArenaNet was actually pretty upfront around the time Factions launched that when they made the Ritualist what they were really looking to do was make an engineer-like profession (such as seen in Team Fortress), but because Tyria at the time didn't have the technology to support that, ArenaNet found a fantasy way of achieving the same playstyle. The advanced timeline and technology of GW2 allowed them to go back to the original concept. Turrets are the spiritual successor to spirits (Supply Drop can even be considered a GW2 version of the PvE Signet of Spirits) and weapon kits are essentially the GW2 urns. Weapon spells aren't there, but they were pretty much just a special form of buff anyway.

Now, how Engineer actually plays in practice is quite different, but that's the result of balance tweaks made post-launch, particularly turret engineers being OP point holders in sPvP at a time when ArenaNet was still largely refusing to split balance between modes.

Revenant, by contrast... well, there were a lot of threads going around pre-HoT along the lines of "well, we know we can't have Dervish because that's tied to the gods*, and we can't have Ritualist because Engineer already fulfills that playstyle, but could we get the playstyle of the Dervish and the lore of the Ritualist by having a 'spirit warrior' style profession that gains power through summoning spirits into their own bodies?" And that's pretty much the general idea behind the Revenant, although ArenaNet put some of their own twists on it.

Kalla is already a nod to the link to Ritualists. Ventari/Kalla is probably the closest thing you can play at the moment to a support Ritualist. But we don't need two elite specialisations in a row trying to make the Revenant into a Ritualist. Let it forge its own path.

*Personally, I think the only thing that was explicitly linked to the gods were the avatar skills, but that was the conclusion people had.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Probably won't be any ritualist or assassins in Cantha.

> >

> > There are canthans in tyria mainland, and the game allows you to also choose where your family is from during the human personal story.

> >

> > Being that we don't see either anywhere in the game, it's probably safe to say only the spiritual successors that already exist in the game are all you will get from those.

> >

> > (assassin (rev or thief (thief is actually confirmed, but let's give shiro a break))

> >

> > (ritualist(this is confirmed in game to be the revenant))

> >

> > After 300-400 years things have changed, and not just in central.

> >

> > If the ministries had their ways, things changed drastically.

> >

> > If ritualist bind ancestors, will that really work for any non-human?

> >

> > Assassin's is just overkill for what we already got in game.

> >

> > I expect there will be new things, that the current professions can pick up.

> >

> > No current class can really support the ritualist, not revenant nor necromancer.

> >

> > It would literally need to be a stand alone class, as it was that different in GW1.

> >

> > Also, despite what people want, Anet tends to surprise us.

> >

> > My money is Rifle Necro ...we can get **cursed bullet** back in the game

> >

>

> Rev as the spiritual successor of Ritualist is no more confirmed in game than paragon is for guardians. It's a PvP title which holds no lore significance. The successor to paragon was confirmed in lore to be spellbreaker since their daggers are the broken spears but not broken will of the Sunspears. And the Paragon was the shining beacon of the Sunspears in the lore.

>

> So that is not confirmed at all. And a white mantle ritualist exists in bloodstone fen that is a necromancer. Uses grasping dead as a skill.

>

> However that's not confirmation for necromancer but its pretty good evidence.

>

> Also no rifle necro... As a necromancer main I despise this idea. I'd rather double up on an existing weapon than have rifle. Shield, Trident, sword or one of the bows is my preference.

Not in-game, but there was an interview back when guardian was announced where ArenaNet said that the initial foundation of guardians was basically when monks looking to be less vulnerable in combat got together with paragons. There is a lore link there.

Similarly, there's a lore link between ritualist and revenant.

However, they're still separate professions, since they do very different things with that power. There's a lot of thematic similarities between mesmer and thief as well, but they're not the same thing even if they are using similar magic. Rangers use a bit of elemental magic, but they're not elementalists either.

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > For the people saying it's not a big deal, here's another consideration:

> >

> > One of the upgrades you can get is gate links to various locations. None of these locations are to places that are particularly hard to get to (Lion's Arch is never more than two transition screens away, and the other locations are all only a handful of transition screens away from there), the price of a gate link is comparable to a portal scroll (at current prices for the materials) and from memory Mechanist Ninn doesn't say anything about the portal being a one-way trip.

> >

> > Intuitively, there's little reason to get a gate link _unless_ it's so you can use it to get _back_ to the Eye of the North. There are probably a lot of people buying gate links expecting it to be two-way and then feeling cheated when they pass through and find out not only that it's one-way, but also that they probably now need to waypoint back if they want to return. Not everybody is going to be scouring the forums or the wiki for a potential catch before purchasing an upgrade like that.

> >

> > The general assumption as new instances are added is that you can get nickled and dimed by waypoint fees every time you want to visit... _or_ you can pay fifty silver upfront to not have to worry about it. The Eye of the North, which is advertised as a hub where players are expected to gather (similar to Lion's Arch) is currently the _only location in Tyria_ that you can't get to without paying a fee every time. Sure, there are other locations which can take a bit of time to get to, but with mounts nowadays it often isn't that long, and you can do some harvesting and/or participate in some events along the way.

>

> and you pay how much to get there 4? that is what? two dead mobs? One harvesting node?

>

> People are making a fuss about NOTHING. If it would cost 1g, I could understand the noise. But this is so low, it is basically free.

Then what's the point of having links to go back? It's just a few silver to waypoint back to Lion's Arch or whatever, no different there!

"Basically free" has a tendency to add up. That's exactly what the term "nickeled and dimed" means. It means being hit by fees which are individually inconsequential enough times that they add up. EotN is clearly a location that ArenaNet expects people to return to often, and it won't take too long even at the minimum fee of about a silver to add up.

It's _inconsistent._ Everywhere else you can go, there's a way to go without using a waypoint if you so choose. Waypoints are a convenience, not a necessity. Meanwhile, we have a purchasable upgrade which seems like it _should_ open up being able to travel to the EOTN without paying a fee, but doesn't.

For the people saying it's not a big deal, here's another consideration:

One of the upgrades you can get is gate links to various locations. None of these locations are to places that are particularly hard to get to (Lion's Arch is never more than two transition screens away, and the other locations are all only a handful of transition screens away from there), the price of a gate link is comparable to a portal scroll (at current prices for the materials) and from memory Mechanist Ninn doesn't say anything about the portal being a one-way trip.

Intuitively, there's little reason to get a gate link _unless_ it's so you can use it to get _back_ to the Eye of the North. There are probably a lot of people buying gate links expecting it to be two-way and then feeling cheated when they pass through and find out not only that it's one-way, but also that they probably now need to waypoint back if they want to return. Not everybody is going to be scouring the forums or the wiki for a potential catch before purchasing an upgrade like that.

The general assumption as new instances are added is that you can get nickled and dimed by waypoint fees every time you want to visit... _or_ you can pay fifty silver upfront to not have to worry about it. The Eye of the North, which is advertised as a hub where players are expected to gather (similar to Lion's Arch) is currently the _only location in Tyria_ that you can't get to without paying a fee every time. Sure, there are other locations which can take a bit of time to get to, but with mounts nowadays it often isn't that long, and you can do some harvesting and/or participate in some events along the way.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Revenant can rupture time and space. Ritualist cannot. Both have strong defining elements that hinders their relationship.

> >

> > The Spirit Rift skill existed. It's more obvious in GW2 because skill descriptions in GW2 sometimes give some fluff rather than just what they do mechanically, but ritualist clearly does have the ability to open rifts. There was also at least one GW1 quest which involved a ritualist opening a portal, although to be fair, the one I'm thinking of might have been a havroun thing rather than a ritualist thing specifically.

>

> Rifts are not breaking down spacetime. If this was the case necromancer would also be doing it as well. Ghastly breach specifically mentions that its breaching the realm of torment. So not quite. Neither Necromancer or Ritualist can breach spacetime. A spectral rift, which necromancer is very capable of doing, is not rupturing space time.

...if opening rifts isn't what you're referring to, where is the revenant "breaking down spacetime"? Citadel Bombardment? That's opening a rift to a fractal in the Mists that's replaying an event in history. Continuum Rift is the closest thing we've been shown to actual time travel, and even there we've had indications that it's actually a special type of clone rather than time travel, similar to the trick that White Mantle Mesmers use.

Incidentally, to comment on the proposals here...

The necromancer one, I can certainly see working out. Not the way I'd do it, but there's definitely potential there.

The revenant one... ehhh. Personally, I think Kalla already does a good job of having spirits offering a mix of offensive and defensive capabilities, and Ventari's Tablet performs much the same role that protective and healing spirits do, so having another legend based on those principles right after Kalla feels redundant. But you probably already know that's my opinion on that particular matter. In isolation, I could see it working, in practice, I think it's too soon coming right after a legend based around summoning what are basically spirits in catsuits.

The ashes are an interesting mechanic, although I'd possibly be inclined to make the ashes be that of your current legend rather than your inactive one (basically representing an even closer attunement to the legend than normal such that the legend takes over the entire skillbar instead of just the right-hand side). It is, however, a mechanic that I feel would be wasted if combined with a humanoid legend - with Mallyx and, for the sake of argument (although it'd never happen) Glint, I could see this having the potential for a set of replacement attack skills that really make you feel like you're embodying the legend physically rather than just assuming their power. For more humanoid legends like Shiro and Usoku, though, it'd probably just feel like an alternate weapon swap. Seems a bit of a waste to take a mechanic that could be used to really sell a nonhumanoid legend (or at least one that doesn't fight with conventional weapons) and applying it to a human spellcaster.

Speaking of, I'm uncomfortable with losing weaponswap as a tradeoff, especially when there are already tradeoffs (losing Ancient Echo and, as much as people like to forget that this is a tradeoff, losing the choice of a third core traitline) - the reason why revenant got weaponswap in the first place was that its weapons weren't properly designed to work without a weaponswap. Mind you, the way things are going, by the time the expansion arrives core revenant might be down to so few viable weapon sets that you might not miss the weaponswap if you have a functionality that replaces it. Similar to engineer, you can probably choose your weapons to account for the weaknesses of the urns available.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Revenant can rupture time and space. Ritualist cannot. Both have strong defining elements that hinders their relationship.

The Spirit Rift skill existed. It's more obvious in GW2 because skill descriptions in GW2 sometimes give some fluff rather than just what they do mechanically, but ritualist clearly does have the ability to open rifts. There was also at least one GW1 quest which involved a ritualist opening a portal, although to be fair, the one I'm thinking of might have been a havroun thing rather than a ritualist thing specifically.

> @"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

> Yeah, I was thinking the same.

>

> She's dual-wielding swords. Her skills are:

> 1. Guardian Sword's #2 teleporting symbol;

> 2. A variation/ stronger version of Guardian Sword's 3 that seems to shoot projectiles towards all sides instead of in a line;

> 3. A flaming leap skill similar to Elementalist's dagger, except with blue flames, and which can apparently be cast three times, and/ or makes her leap three times in a triangle-shaped movement.

> 4. A ward that does not let you get out of it much like Guardian Hammer's #5, except with a different animation.

>

> She would teleport into you with the symbol and use the ward right around the same time, preventing you to escape while taking damage from the symbol below.

>

> Because Anet has made entirely new animations for this, I strongly believe that they were showcasing Guardian's next elite spec. My prediction is that the ward will be Off-Hand Sword #5 and the Flaming Leap will either be OH Sword #4 or an utility/ elite skill with 3 charges/ ammo to spend.

>

> I doubt Anet would go into the trouble of creating and showcasing us a dual-wielding Sword Guardian with new unique animations only for this instance, especially when we know an expansion is coming.

It's not the first time we've seen a boss or even just an NPC which, while clearly a member of a profession that's available to PCs, has skills which are never made available to PCs.

Can't say I'd object to getting access to some of what Almorra was using, but I'm not counting any chickens.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Just remember, she curbstomped Bangar and it took at least eleven people (a full squad plus Ryland) to take her down.

Strictly speaking, I think it's supposed to be just Ryland, even if it's possibly to take a squad in. That's how it was when I played it. And Ryland is probably not supposed to be as strong as the Commander (even with his "charr-made Sohothin"), so Almorra's strength has probably been calibrated accordingly.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

> >

> > No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:

> > Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

> > > Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.

> > > Title: Title icon.png Champion **Ritualist**

> >

> > Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

>

> Why does it say "champion revered"?

There's something a little strange with the revenant PvP title. The achievement is called "champion revered", but the actual title unlocked by completing it is "champion ritualist".

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> Dadnir brings up a good point. Ritualists are usually channeling specific dead beings and using their skills. All the ash skills were historic figures. In my eye's ritualist and revenants use their magic by connecting to the mists/spirit realm, and yes they are connected. Dead spirits reside in different parts of the mists like the underworld or realm of torment, and other god realms. But yeah, both of these professions (rit and rev) act as a conduit between the mists and the physical world and draw power from it. Sure they act in different ways, like the revenant uses it to enhance its marshall capabilities and to basically use skills of very powerful beings. Revenants are also very new and aren't as well versed in their magic as other professions seeing as their hasn't been a long history of perfecting it. It's new and probably hard to use. Maybe since they are such rookies at using their magic they do not know how to form their own spells and skills with it, resulting in them just mimicking skills from the mists. But only those of legends that have left a large imprint and echo in the mists are easily aquirable or channeled. Like the radio frequency of those legends is higher quality and easier to tune into than some random joe shmo. Ritualists on the other hand are more well trained and have been perfecting their craft for centuries. They can channel lesser know spirits with a wider array of skills to draw from, and they can also harness mist magic more easily, such as in channeling and restoration magic. A revenant on the other hand might have a hard time controlling raw mist magic and making it do what they want.

>

> Now for how I think necromancers compare. Well, they don't necessarily channel specific people and aren't about using much mist magic. They instead manipulate life force and create their own abominations out of corpses and spirits. Necromancer magic seems seperate than mist magic to me. They aren't channeling and drawing from the mists as inspiration and strength for their abilities, they possess they're own energy and magic within themselves. They can communicate with the spirit realm, so that is a point up for the necromancers. But to me it seems like necro makes its own life from death, wether that be from stealing health with blood magic or by creating abominations from corpses that do not have the original spirit in tact and is instead powered like flesh robot/construct with magic. But, i've never seen a necromancer channel or commune with spirits to do their bidding. The shade minion feels more like a creation than an already existing entity. Probably similar to how grenth/dhuum created shades within the underworld. Revenants currently don't possess the ability to essentially take spirits captive to do theyre bidding, but they do channel their magic which is more on point with ritualist than what necromancer is.

>

> but all in all, both professions would be a good candidate. They could honestly take different parts of ritualist and split them between nec and rev's next elite specs. There's plenty of ritualist theme for the both of them.

I think there is also a distinction in that what the revenants channel does not need to be the actual spirit of the legend in question.

For instance, it's questionable whether Shiro's spirit even still exists. Underworld quests suggested that killing a spirit in the Underworld could be killing it _permanently,_ so killing Shiro at the Gate of Madness possibly means his spirit is destroyed. Possibly more notably, when the revenant channels Joko to break out of the Sunspear Great Hall, this is channeling an echo of Joko himself breaking out of Balthazar's prison.

What I think is going on is that while ritualists do call on souls, revenant legends are mostly drawing power from _fractals._ There are probably fractals of the defeat of Shiro and Mallyx, of Glint's lair, of Jalis performing the Rite of the Great Dwarf, Ventari inscribing the Tablet (which is probably not a particularly violent fractal) and Kalla fighting against the Flame Legion - these are all events of similar or greater significance to fractals we've seen. It's possible that the revenant can also draw on the spirit directly when that spirit is available (example: Glint), but back in pre-release discussions of the revenant, we were pretty much told point blank that the revenant does not need to contact the actual soul of the original being that forged the legend in order to channel the legend, but often instead channels the echoes in the Mists left behind by that being's actions.

> @"beogoat.9215" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"hostileskeleton.7364" said:

> > > In all seriousness is this a joke? The most I could possibly see you spending is less than 10 silver for the farthest WP from the Eye of the North WP AND ANet is doing something incredibly experimental by giving you a totally optional city hub that you can customize as you see fit. Yeah the grind to max everything out would be tedious but if you just get a gate link to Lion's Arch or your Home Instance you'd be traveling for free after that point. I can kind of see where you're coming from but it's less than 10 silver. You can make up that loss in no time and I can't imagine a situation where you're traveling back and forth between EotN and the rest of the map without pocketing enough gold to make up the difference.

> >

> > Have you checked this? I got the gate link to Lion's Arch, and it seems to be a one-way link: it drops you at the gate to Rata Sum, and I haven't been able to find any gate inside Lion's Arch that will actually take you BACK to the Eye of the North.

>

> I agree.

>

> If there isn't a gate or another method back to the Eyes of the North, this would incur players the cost of using WPs.

> Though it isn't expensive per usage, over time, it'll add up especially like say over the course of a year, etc...

Particularly annoying because I was assuming that paying for a gate link WOULD be two-way. Getting to Lion's Arch is never more than two map transitions away anyway...

> @"hostileskeleton.7364" said:

> In all seriousness is this a joke? The most I could possibly see you spending is less than 10 silver for the farthest WP from the Eye of the North WP AND ANet is doing something incredibly experimental by giving you a totally optional city hub that you can customize as you see fit. Yeah the grind to max everything out would be tedious but if you just get a gate link to Lion's Arch or your Home Instance you'd be traveling for free after that point. I can kind of see where you're coming from but it's less than 10 silver. You can make up that loss in no time and I can't imagine a situation where you're traveling back and forth between EotN and the rest of the map without pocketing enough gold to make up the difference.

Have you checked this? I got the gate link to Lion's Arch, and it seems to be a one-way link: it drops you at the gate to Rata Sum, and I haven't been able to find any gate inside Lion's Arch that will actually take you BACK to the Eye of the North.

ArenaNet has pretty much acknowledged that the 5 minute cooldown passive traits are placeholders until they can replace them with something that actually fits their new balance principles.

Bulwark is in its current state because it was used and got nerfed. Maybe it's due to be buffed back up, maybe you're being overly critical.

Heavy Light versus Big Game Hunter... honestly, I haven't really played with it since knockback on longbow skill 3 became baseline. Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure that BGH is necessarily obviously better than having the Stability to follow up an interrupt - I can think of a lot of situations where that might still be handy.

Hunter's Fortification... is a defensive trait for anti-condi work.

Mandatory major traits is something that happens, but it's something that ArenaNet usually tries to fix (however slow they can be at times) rather than just accepting that that's how it's going to be forever.

I wasn't thinking in terms of decreasing the recharge on WoR so much as increasing the damage it deals. Add the evade, and for PvP purposes I don't think it would necessarily actually need to do more damage than the reduced recharge on traps might gain, since it would likely be more reliable (as well as making the heal on WoR more reliable).

I had noticed that Almorra's skills were clearly guardian-themed, but I'd thought she was using mainhand sword and shield myself. Wasn't paying a huge amount of attention to her model, though, so I might have missed something.

It's possible that her moves might be something they're considering for a future elite spec, but I'm not counting my chickens. They might not even have committed to making an expansion when this encounter was originally designed, so they might just have been looking to make an interesting encounter using general guardian themes of fire, teleporting to the target, and wardings.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

>

> No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:

> Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

> > Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.

> > Title: Title icon.png Champion **Ritualist**

>

> Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

I wait with baited breath for Guardian to get Paragon, then.

It's likely that "Ritualist", per se, will never get used as an elite spec name. We'll get some other name applied to any such elite spec, so they can leave the opportunity open to use similar themes and mechanics for another elite specialisation on another profession some time in the future. "Renegade" has a nice ring to it, maybe it could be based on summoning the warband members of one of the leaders of the revolution against the Flame Legion or something?

On the first general theme: You're focusing on the actual summons the Ritualist had and ignoring the rest of the profession. The teal lightning that many of the attack spells have? That's essentially the energy of the Mists being pulled into the physical world to serve as a weapon. Spirit Rift, for instance, name aside (a _lot_ of skill names derive from in-universe misconceptions about what is actually going on, like monk magic being associated with Dwayna) is the same general concept behind Rift Slash: you open a rift into the Mists which results in an explosion when the rift reaches a certain size.

Then there's the Restoration heals. That's just not something that necromancy did back in GW1. Heck, the concept that healing through necromancy requires taking life energy from something else is still in GW2, it's just "under the hood" a bit, so to speak.

Regardless, there is an important distinction between death magic and ritualist magic. Death magic is, ultimately, Tyrian magic. Ritualist magic has some Tyrian magic in there, but the original form of it was purely through drawing power from the Mists in one fashion or another. Ultimately, both ritualist and revenant operate by opening a conduit to the Mists to access some source of power within. The _exact_ nature of the power varies: ritualist focuses on calling upon the spirits of the dead (but have some things they can do otherwise), while revenant is more oriented towards drawing from legends, which seem to be more echoes in the Mists rather than _necessarily_ being linked to the original spirits of the entities in question. One could say that these represent different branches of Mists magic, similar to how there are different branches of Tyrian magic, but there is one important distinction between the magic used by ritualists and revenants and the magic used by everyone else:

Other professions draw magical energy from their surroundings. Revenants and ritualist, on the other hand, primarily operate by opening a conduit to somewhere _else_ within the Mists, and draw power from there. They just have different targets for their conduits - ritualists target the realms of the dead in order to draw through individual spirits, while revenants target the echoes in the Mists formed by particularly impressive entities. This fundamental distinction overrides any superficial thematic similarities that there might be. A ritualist's magic isn't related to necromancer magic, even if it often relates to dead spirits, any more than a revenant's ability to throw heals, buffs, and protection around (Jalis, Ventari, Glint...) is related to guardian magic. They're not even different branches of magic, but entirely different forms of magic - other professions draw on local magical sources, revenants and ritualists reach deep into the Mists for power.

Your comments about real-world mediums is, honestly, pretty much irrelevant. Yes, that's called "necromancy", but in the fantasy genre, the term "necromancer" rarely refers to a medium, but usually to... well, something similar to the GW necromancer.

So... ritualist magic and necromancer magic may have some common themes, but in terms of what they actually _are,_ necromancer magic is closer to guardian magic than it is to ritualist magic. Necromancers call on magic in the death part of the spectrum from Tyria's own magical field, or the magical field of wherever they happen to be. Ritualists draw on the part of the Mists that is associated with the souls of the dead. (Which raises a question of how well ritualist magic would even _work_ in the present day with the disruption to those realms that has occurred during and after PoF.)

None of which says that necromancers can't add ritualist magic to their toolbox as an elite specialisation, since at least some elite specialisations are based around the concept of adding a form of magic to a profession that the profession does not normally have (examples: spellbreaker, druid). In fact, they have plenty of incentive to do so: truly gaining an understanding of death would benefit from a proficiency with both local death magic, _and_ of the realms of the dead in the Mists. Heck, it's entirely likely that Scourge shades are an example of exactly this principle. However, they are still very different ways of performing magic. Ritualist and revenant magic are, when you get down to it, more similar to each other than to _any_ other magic type we know about.

Regarding your comments about the bloodstones: Magical history is complex, but it pretty much goes as follows:

Towards the end of the last Dragonrise: The Seers collected all the ambient magic they could that the dragons had not already consumed and sealed it into the original bloodstone. This reduced the ambient magical energy in Tyria sufficiently to put the Elder Dragons into hibernation.

Immediately after last Dragonrise: Ambient magic is extremely scarce - barely enough to sustain life on Tyria. Most of Tyria's magic is contained within the original bloodstone and the Elder Dragons.

Arrival of the Gods: The gods restore life to much of Tyria (this is part of the reason why they're seen as creators by more than just humans). Ambient magic that isn't tied up in living beings or the bloodstones and is thus available to use as magic, however, remains weak. This is probably why the ritualist developed during this period - drawing power from the Mists removes the limitations of the weak magic available at the time. Magic was _present,_ but not very strong unless you were an entity that had some power hoarded up already, or the power was given by such an entity.

Initial unlocking of the bloodstone: Magical power spikes, wars start all over the place, Doric comes to Arah to ask the gods to put the genie back into the bottle.

Splitting of the bloodstone: The gods break the bloodstone into pieces with the goal of weakening magic, specifically in a manner that encourages cooperation. The energy from four of the five largest pieces formed the basis of the four primary schools of Tyrian magic.

Around the period of Guild Wars 1: Ambient magic raises to the point where the Elder Dragons start awakening. The effect of the bloodstones as a magical regulator, as opposed to simply being giant magic batteries, erodes. While the magical schools continue to exist because that's how people are used to magic working, they steadily broaden in scope and become more powerful.

I think your attempt to "correct" me is rooted in GW1 lore, which was shown to only be myth in GW2 lore. As shown in the Seer path of Arah, the magic that came in the "Gift of Magic" by Abaddon did not come from the gods, but came from magical energy sealed in the bloodstone during the last Dragonrise by the Seers. The gods may have empowered some select followers beforehand, and Abaddon claimed credit for the "gift of magic" and probably _did_ play a role in teaching those races he could get to how to use it, but the original source of most of it was that original bloodstone that the Seers made. It's still true that the actions of the gods resulted in returning magic to the world, but they did so through unlocking an artifact created to suck up as much of Tyria's magic as possible before the Elder Dragons did.

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

> >

> > I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they _can_ be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

>

> The difference between Guardian offhands and Axe/offSword on Rev is that there are inherent defenses baked into all 3 of guard's offhand choices. Currently, Rev has 0 defensive options for offhands outside of Shield in Herald (and shield wouldn't mix with a hypothetical scepter for obvious reasons). You're right, Axe wouldn't be an awful choice to pair with a longer range scepter, but it's entirely offensive so it would only fill that niche. The gap closers on both could be useful, but would depend on what skills the mainhand scepter received, what utility skills the new legend provides, and what profession skills are added. One of the issues with Shortbow (and Mace/Axe for a long time) is the complete lack of defensive skills. I wouldn't want the same fate to befall any future mainhand weapon for Rev. I should rephrase my initial statement to say that adding a Focus (or any offhand for that matter) with long range abilities/some defensive utility alongside a mainhand scepter would provide additional (probably better) synergy and add a lot more build options for a class that's already hyper limited. It would allow a hypothetical scepter rev to have the choice of two hyper offensive offhands (axe/sword) or a 3rd offhand with some damage/utility/defense (focus).

>

Somehow missed this before, and wanted to respond to it, so here goes:

I would note that you have to squint pretty hard to find inherent defenses baked into guardian torch. It's very much a 'best defense is a good offense' weapon, with Cleansing Flames not even cleansing the user. Off the top of my head, I don't think there are even any traits that can allow torch to become defensive.

That said, you do make a valid point in that more defensive options in general would probably be valuable for the revenant.

Wooden Potatoes is spitballing just like everyone else is at the moment. Trying to use him to back up your position when we have no reason to think he's got more information than anyone else who's well versed in the lore is an appeal to authority fallacy.

On that question: ritualist and revenant absolutely _are_ both using Mists magic. This is part of how ritualist is the oldest magical profession that was available to humans - it didn't rely on the weak magic of Tyria that was available before the gods tampered with the original Bloodstone. Once bloodstone magic was available, ritualists started using that too - but its ambiguous which form. (Personally, I'm inclined to think that they tapped into the same bloodstone that monks did - which would explain why they were good healers if they chose to be.) This is why there are a number of thematic similarities between the two - the tendency to cover their eyes, the third eye symbol, and so on.

However, the significant _differences_ between how they used this energy need to be acknowledged. Ritualist is based around calling spirits that are individually relatively weak but which can be summoned in numbers, which the ritualist keeps at arm's length. Revenants, on the other hand, grab the biggest echoes they can find and channel them directly into their own bodies (which one could say is acting as a substitute for an urn), augmenting their physical and magical capabilities, but each revenant can only channel one such legend at a time (although traits imply that they can passively draw something from one or two other legends at the same time).

Is it possible for a revenant to develop ritualist-like abilities? Definitely... in fact, we've already seen that, in Kalla. On the other hand... _we've already seen that._ I'd rather see revenant get something new than two out of three elite specialisations being about pretending to be a Ritualist. And the point that it would be nice to see legends of the norn - a race whose entire culture is based around the concept of legend - is a valid one.

Who would that be? Jora, I consider to be no better than Togo - AFAIK, everything we know about her deeds are things she did along with the GW1 PC. If you can take a potential legend and ask "why isn't the GW1 PC the legend instead", then I'm inclined to think you're not being ambitious enough with your choice. Svanir is, honestly, borderline - from the perspective of the norn, he was one scary monster among many in their history, the only reason I'd even consider him is because he inspired the Sons of Svanir. Asgeir is, I think, probably the strongest candidate that we know about.

When it comes to necromancer picking up ritualist stuff, whether they're called a ritualist directly (and it's worth noting that there are necromancer enemies in GW1 and, I think, GW2 as well that are called "ritualist") or some other name... I think it makes sense. Yes, they're completely separate magics: necromancy is based on the death branch of the Tyrian magical spectrum, while ritualist magic is born of the Mists. However, these magics are not incompatible - even in the days of the Bloodstones, you could theoretically combine ritualist magic with anything because there was no 'Mists magic' bloodstone. So there's nothing stopping necromancers from picking up Mists magic, and I think there is evidence (such as Shadow Fiend and various spectral skills, maybe even the shroud itself) that they _already have._ Certainly, I can't see any reason why members of a profession who focuses on death-related magics wouldn't at least be _curious_ about magic that allows them to call upon the spirits of the dead from the Mists. Heck, we see exactly this from a priestess of Grenth in the human personal story!

Considering that this has essentially become a general "possible revenant elite specialisations" thread...

What about one of the Envoys as a possible legend? All of the legends we currently have are from GW1 or from more recent history (Kalla). The Envoys, however, are said to have had similar statuses and crimes to Shiro in life, which suggests that each of those has a story behind them which could be expanded into a legend (and, in fact, such a legend could be a means of adding backstory that we might not otherwise see). [Courier Torivos](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Courier_Torivos) might be particularly fitting, since he appears to be minotaur-like in nature, and therefore might avoid being a legend who is a human with a regular profession, while having the potential to wield double axes.

Mind you, I still think there's a good chance that the revenant elite won't necessarily link to Cantha.

Well, in PvP it also has the problem of not doing enough damage. Which was a nerf applied at a time when it _was_ being used, which in turn indicates that tweaking the numbers and effect back up to compete with Piercing Light is at least _possible._

Moving it up to Master has a couple of effects that don't sit right with me:

The first is that if it replaces Hunter's Determination (a trait which has been boonsmited and probably will eventually be replaced with something), that's putting it in direct competition with Bulwark, making a virtues-focused dragonhunter build impossible. (I expect you'll now say that such a build doesn't work anyway, but there's a distinction between "numbers aren't the best, but you can do it if you want to" and "the traits clash"). This could possibly be resolved by moving Bulwark down, but that's just shifting the problem.

The second, and probably more important, is that it feels like it's basically giving up, accepting that Piercing Light is always going to be inevitably stapled to every DH build, and that the only way a trait can be competitive is if it's not competing with Piercing Light. This is essentially saying that the other two major adept traits just might as well not exist and that DH essentially has four minors. If one major trait is so dominant, changes should be arranged around breaking that dominance, rather than accepting it.

As a consideration, in PvE, the main thing you get out of Piercing Light is being able to use Procession of Blades on a shorter cooldown. What if the damage from Soaring Devastation in PvE was calibrated so that having and using it was about the same DPS boost as using Procession of Blades 20% more often? That way, heavy trap builds would still probably choose Piercing Light, but builds which have only one or two traps might work just as well with Soaring Devastation. Throw in the evade and it could offer utility in the form of avoiding attacks in the process.

But if anything should be moved because of Piercing Light's dominance, it should be Piercing Light that is moved up to where it'll face stiffer competition. Competing with Heavy Light and Big Game Hunter might make it less of an auto-pick.

> @"Drgnfly.5812" said:

> The point of this was to show that every race has the ability to fill every profession from a lore or story standpoint. Questions of "which is best" defeat the ability to be creative. How would Asura be a Warrior or Ranger? What does a Charr Necromancer look like? Are the best Human Mesmers nobles or carnies? All these questions and more lay open in the art story building.

>

> So I leave you with an old Guild Wars 2 quote, "What's your story?"

>

I get what you're trying to say, but what you're trying to say is already pretty much accepted. It's official that any race can be any (playable) profession.

However, we do know that some professions are more common with some races than others. ArenaNet had a table of which race/profession combinations are common, uncommon, and "only use this if there's a story behind it". I suspect that table has been lost or sometimes ignored, but we have been told that some combinations are more common than others.

For instance, we've been told outright that sylvari necromancers and engineers are rare. Not unknown, obviously - we've had several important characters who are sylvari necromancers and engineers. We also have the evidence that sylvari warriors are fairly rare - there's a discussion in Brisban Wildlands where another sylvari is trying to understand the mindset of a sylvari warrior, and generic sylvari Wardens and Wyld Hunters are usually rangers. Conversely, by that same token, rangers seem to be really common.

Nothing stops someone from playing an unusual match. In fact, one could say that it's the unusual matches that have a higher chance of being exceptional, as PCs or significant NPCs.

However, I think it _is_ worthwhile discussing which combinations are more common than others. It means people who _do_ want to choose a thematic match know which race/profession combinations to go for. Likewise, someone who wants to do the opposite and go for something unusual can get an indication of what is unusual according to the lore. Finally, it's simply a matter of lore curiosity.

Nothing in this discussion is intended to disincentivise people from choosing a more unusual combination. It's just about trying to establish which combinations _are_ unusual (or otherwise) so people can make informed decisions if that matters to them... either way!

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You mean Soaring Devastation?

> >

> > If the move speed increase is so important, that strikes me as a good thing - it means the trait has a chance to compete with Piercing Light. I could see the reasoning for making the speed increase permanent if you have the trait, but it should probably stay in a major trait that competes with Piercing Light.

>

> It does not though. Nothing competes or can compete with piercing light. There are no DH builds that do not use traps in any game mode (maybe WvW). Is this bad design? Yes, but it is reality.

Which is kinda the point. Anything that's going up against Piercing Light has to be offering something that's _really_ tempting in order to make up for shortened recharge on traps. Being a source of a permanent speed boost on a profession that is otherwise fairly lacking in such options is a step in that direction.

Personally, I don't think it's a _bad_ trait, it's just that it's going up against a trait that is often seen as a must-pick, so some form of improvement is probably warranted. Making Wings of Resolve an evade as well might do the trick - number of times back in the day when I activated Wings of Resolve and got spiked or interrupted before landing and killed.