draxynnic.3719

Honestly, it's an extension of the "the PC never does anything apart from what is shown directly on-screen" principle that annoys me with ArenaNet a bit. If a charr PC was spending any time at all with their warband beyond level 20, the fact that the champion of Aurene is a member _of their own warband_ and someone who's possibly discussed the actual nature of their relationship with Aurene over a drink or two should really have made the PC's warband pretty much inoculated against what Bangar was peddling. This was an opportunity to bring the warband NPCs back into play, but they really should have been on the United Legions side rather than as enemies.

Make it so that for PCs that didn't meet them in their own personal story, they just say that the leader of their warband is with the Pact and has told them enough that they know not to believe Bangar.

Would be much more satisfying than implying that charr PCs have been neglecting their warbands as much as ArenaNet has.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> On top of this, like it or not, Charr are a warbourne society and these people are traitors. Yes, Ryland and his Warband are hardcore traitors, and in many countries on Earth they'd be executed on sight. If anything Smodur is somewhat civil compared to what Ryland and his friends have done, and what Bangar is trying to do to the Charr society in general. Not unite it, but regress and destroy it entirely.

This one I'm going to object to.

Iron and Ash Legion members joining the Dominion are pretty clear-cut as being traitors, but as part of Blood, the Steel Warband are following the orders of the legitimate Blood Imperator. Said Imperator may have gone off the deep end and broken the alliance with the other legions, but the Steel Warband never had a change in allegiance - they've been following the same leader throughout.

Strictly speaking, in fact, it's Crecia and Rytlock, especially Crecia, who's turned traitor by taking over what was left of the Blood Legion in Bangar's absence in what is essentially a coup. We give them a pass because they're doing so out of having a greater loyalty to the charr alliances (both between the legions, with other races, and with multiracial organisations), but nevertheless, those are the ones that have turned against their Imperator.

Which is a distinction that the Smodur we'd seen before should have made. Execute the Iron Legion defectors? Sure, they did turn traitor, and nobody's going to trust someone who defects and then defects back to their original side without _really_ strong evidence that they've changed their worldview. But for the Steel warband... we had good reason to think that at least a couple of them were privately uncomfortable with what Bangar is doing but so far they've just been going along with the chain of command - if they were to switch, it would be believable (as well as being a major propaganda victory).

If Smodur felt that Cinder should not be released, there were a lot of things he could have done apart from arbitrarily murdering her mid-negotiation when he knew that would infuriate his allies.

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> I'm not questioning his pragmatism, but I seriously question his sudden callousness. There is a huge element of it during the second negociation with Ryland that just makes no sense. And one can visibly see it on his face as he does the deed : That to me, is out of character. Doing that during negociations -just- to anger the opposite party makes very little sense from a pragmatic standpoint, especially when the opposite party is about to concede. He did it to prolong the bloodshed, not end it. As if Killing more of his opponents will results in him getting more glory. He is a glory seeker yes, but Smodur is Way smarter than this. This, I expect of a Blood Legion imperator. Iron Legion rewards ingenuity.

>

> I think this is a story tool, in order to give more credence to Efram, and make him appear as the more humane Charr of all imperators, with the added twist that he isn't one, but with the expectation that he -should- be.

To be fair, I didn't get the impression Ryland was about to concede. He was basically saying "Give up your leverage and maybe I'll think about what you're saying". Maybe he was genuine, maybe it was purely a ploy to get Cinder out of there. I can see Smodur deciding that letting her go without getting more in return than an "I'll consider it" wasn't a good trade.

Killing her there and then wasn't a smart way to handle it, though, either for the short to medium term of winning the war, or his long-term ambitions.

> @"Cynder.2509" said:

> > @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> > There are no... "typical" vampires in GW2. Linked above, the vampires in Tyria are unintelligent bat creatures. Now, some necromancers may tap into blood magic and perhaps even have vampire like behaviors/manners, but the blood drinking would be entirely optional and not a requirement and sunlight wouldn't cause them a single issue.

>

> Hmm the first part somehow reminded me the Witcher's vampires as there are more than one kind of them of which some are considered "unintelligent" and more animal like while there are humanoid ones as well. I like this approach to be honest.

> About the necromancy part I think that could be reasonable as well.

> However this is a really tricky topic for the game's universe.

> I hope that maybe one day we'll get some more closure of that since they added other folklore/mythic/legendary/pop culture based creatures such as Boneskinner which is not only based on but highly similar to the Wendigo.

Possible, but I wouldn't count on it. ArenaNet has shown a liking for putting their own spins on things rather than relying on stock fantasy creatures, and we've had undead as major antagonists several times now without the vampire card being played. At this stage, I'd honestly be shocked if we ever see an undead vampire as anything other than an undead necromancer specialising in blood magic.

If you mean the classic werewolf and vampire, not that we currently know of. Wolf Norn are the closest there is to werewolves, and while there are a variety of blood-drinking monsters, they're not undead (apart from the occasional undead necromancer, and undead necromancers don't seem to be any more likely to use blood magic than living necromancers).

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> It helps to realize that even top Asuran tech, is ultimately just magictech. The radio might as well just be a magic gem or cowl you talk into for all intents and purposes.

Pretty much this.

The "science fiction" elements of Guild Wars 2 are essentially magical devices mimicking technology. While the people of Tyria might not fully understand the rules, there is an underlying "sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!!!" aspect - magical energy can be harnessed and channeled through magic-powered devices to achieve reproducible results. For people familiar with D&D settings, I think Eberron is a good example of this principle - a world with equivalents to trains and other industrial-era devices which are actually magic items being produced on a large scale.

Guild Wars 2 complicates this by having advanced nonmagical technology as well (albeit with whateverpunk tropes), but the nonmagical technology is still behind modern technology, with the possible exception of dredge sonic weaponry.

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > Either way, fantasy or sci-fi, it should have been made with a much tighter focus in regards to the tactics and strategy to go with the technology and the hazards we face. I realize GW2 is a game and we have to suspend disbelief to some degree just to be able to log in, but the rationality meter really is pegged low when it comes to the magi-technical status of the GW2 universe. In reality, melee weapons were obsolete as primary tools of war in the 18th century, and tight formations ended the hard way in WW1. Tyria is a world filled with ranged magic, AOE attacks of every description, bows, guns, artillery, siege engines, tanks, helicopters, airships, Vigil Megalasers, golems, Engineers, mountain-sized Elder Dragons, and even worse, pocket raptors. What are the primary tactics in at least 80% of the game? Melee weapons and stacking in groups. Yeah, right...

>

> And alongside the rifles and artillery, there are magical melee attacks and the ability to close the distance. Bullets could universally kill/disable troops across the board IRL when they started coming out, but in Tyria? A bullet will hit a charr with different results then a human. A bullet works to down a human quickly but what about that rampaging Centaur group? Or the crazed Ettins in the hills?

>

> Another thing you must understand is Gameplay does not = lore entirely. The whole concept of mass stacking players to burn down a boss in dungeons or other things isn't going to work in actual lore. Mostly because you can't have 20 people literally standing in the same area. Simply put, Tyria is filled with a lot of races and monsters that won't go down that quickly, meaning Melee weapons are still very much viable and important.

Possibly more important than having different races is the presence of improved armour.

Consider that historically, the most advanced armour until recently was made of steel. In Tyria, on the other hand, steel is tier 3 of seven tiers of armour materials technology, and putting aside the likelihood that darksteel and up are inherently magical materials, the materials that go into insignias indicate that the armour is enchanted. Leather and cloth 'armour' isn't so easy to compare with history, but you're still likely looking at magic protection on top of whatever physical protection they provide. This means that personal armour in Tyria is going to stand up to threats that would render 15th century full plate obsolete.

Now, we also have magic weapons as well, but it's probably impractical making individual bullets, arrowheads, and even artillery shells out of deldrimor steel infused with Zojja's inscriptions. So however enchanted the bow or handgun might be, it's probably still firing relatively mundane ammunition. Meanwhile, melee weapons may well be made out of the same special materials (mithril seems to be fairly standard among the Pact based on requisitions, for instance), and therefore is just as good against that armour as historical steel melee weapons were against historical steel armour.

If we had mithril, orichalcum, and deldrimor steel in the real world, it's entirely likely that we'd have continued to see elite units of knights and men-at-arms continue to be used up until close to modern times. Especially if those heavily armoured soldiers were supported by magic that protected against projectiles.

> @"Syde.8213" said:

> I've open a ticket 5 days ago , still waiting the answer

Hello,

I understand you're reaching out to us regarding the No Quarter Achievement "Special Forces" not progressing as intended. Unfortunately, we at Customer Support do not have the ability to manually progress achievements for players. Additionally, we are unable to send replacement items to progress this achievement, as using another Special Mission Documents will result in the error "You have already that content unlocked".

As this is the case, we will need to request you submit a bug-report in-game by following the steps below:

1. Press ESC on your keyboard to open the Game menu

2. Click the "Support" option from the Game menu

3. Click the Bug icon located in the second position on the left side of the support window

4. Select User Interface for the [Area] dropdown

5. Select Hero Panel for the [sub-Area] dropdown

6. Set the title to Special Forces Achievement Progress Blocked

7. Provide a brief description of the issue you've encountered within the "Description of the issue" section.

Be sure to include the details of the location you used the Special Mission Documents in. For example, if you unlocked any missions while in the PvP Lobby or WvW, please be sure to include these details. If you can remember the exact location you used these items, please submit your report from that location.

Submitting an in-game bug report will send detailed information about your character and your position directly to our Quality Assurance Team and will help us assess the issue as promptly as possible. Please note that these reports do not receive individual responses, and their sole purpose is to collect information pertaining to an issue in-game with the appropriate character data.

You’re also welcome to report a game issue in the Bugs sub-forum of the Guild Wars 2 Forums (https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/bugs). You may include screenshots with your forum report, if you wish to do so. While we are unable to respond directly to each bug report that we receive on the forums or through the game interface, each report is reviewed and escalated, when appropriate.

Thank you again for taking the time to let us know about this issue. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

As the title says. One of the players on my team first switched to another character, and then dropped out of the game altogether. Played all three rounds 2v3 thinking "well, at least I shouldn't lose rating over this", and then when the match finished, I was docked 15 points anyway despite being 1/3 of the team down the entire match.

Seems there's something wrong with the algorithm for detecting disconnects in 3v3.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Even LW1 was Sylvari/Asura themed due to Scarlet and Primordus being the prominent threats. While the Orr arc felt a lot like Sylvari/Charr focus due to being centred around Trahearne and then Charr military forces (Copters, Cannons, Tanks...) with Humans jumping in right at the end with the Glory of Tyria airship helmed by Logan...

There was a lot of "use asura magitech to solve the problem" in the original release and in season 1 as well, including in things where the solution really should have come from another race (example: the temples being 'cleansed' by using an asura device to cut them off, when it could have been an opportunity for human priests to perform rituals to cleanse them, even if only temporarily).

I've got a similar problem. I'm at 38/40, with the 'missing' ones being two of the generic special missions (the 'repair buildings' missions for Petraj and Fort Defiance IIRC). One of the 'missing' missions I'd actually finished at the time I noticed the problem, and I've probably finished the other since.

Submitted a ticket on Friday - haven't received any response yet. Annoying, since I'm now at the point where I need mastery points to avoid losing experience, and if I could only get _this_ one, I can get the two from unlocking weapons in pretty short order.

(Now, if only they'd introduce a "track" for just putting your experience back into spirit shards, it wouldn't be a problem. But people have been asking for that since the mastery system was introduced.)

The pushback I'm referring to was under Prince Edair, so we have the date... importantly, _not_ during or immediately after the rebellion. And at a time within a generation of Kryta having just received probably it's biggest single disaster in history. Yes, the charr have ghosts and Flame Legion to deal with, but the Krytans weren't exactly sitting pretty at the time either.

Having no land is something that's relative to their population - the centaurs are being aggressive because they don't have enough land to sustain their population without raiding. It's also worth noting that centaurs seem to be at least as omnivorous as humans ("They're after out land _and crops,_ not our beer"), while charr are more towards the carnivorous end. This is _important_ when it comes to judging the amount of population that a given piece of land can sustain - it can be as much as an order of magnitude difference. The Iron Legion population is probably a _lot_ smaller than the population of human Ascalon, and this can be seen in the Iron Legion having one major city (the Black Citadel) while Ascalon during the Guild Wars had at least five (Ascalon City, Rin, Surmia, Nolani, Drascir).

I think we _can_ say that the centaurs didn't have any real success until Caudecus started engaging in sabotage. Dialogue in the maps gives the impression that the centaurs pushing into Gendarran or even taking over formerly Krytan territory in Harathi Hinterlands was relatively recent - Nightguard Beach, for instance, seems to have still been receiving refugees relatively recently, and while that _could_ just be escaped slaves, it does seem to imply that human settlements in the area only fell relatively recently.

You're right in that humans going on the upswing is also a significant factor, but if the charr _have_ split down the middle, that's also a significant factor.

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > Feels like you're using a ridiculously broad definition of "colonialism" here. In this hypothetical scenario we have a charr leader reshaping charr society in response to events that have shown a weakness in the traditional social structure, and you essentially seem to be calling it "colonialism" because there's a member of an outside culture who agrees with them and is supporting them to do so.

> >

> > I recently shared something on social media talking about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which might be seen by people in the US. As I am not a US citizen, does this mean I am engaging in colonialism with the USA? Plus, there's also the question of the Commander themselves possibly being a charr... does this become colonialism because the Pact Commander has been exposed to outside influences? Does this make it colonialism if anyone ever makes a decision about their country that has been influenced in any way by exposure to ideas from outside their country?

> >

> > Colonialism, as per the accepted definition, is one country exerting at least partial control over another. Charr leaders choosing to implement reforms, even if those reforms are inspired by or implemented with the assistance of outside parties, is not colonialism as long as the Charr leaders are still genuinely making their own decisions. It could be called foreign _influence,_ and whether that's something to be considered undesirable is open for debate, but calling it colonialism cheapens the term.

>

> In this entire patch, we are killing Charr soldiers on the other side. We are not going after Bangar, we are not preparing the defenses for Jormag, we are not taking a neutral stance. What part of this does not seem like colonialism? If anything our actions are further weakening the Charr. We are not just an outside influence. We are the commander of the pact who has an elder dragon and an army. If anything, our actions in this episode validate Bangar's quest to get a dragon of his own.

>

> We also are not talking about exposing the Charr to other cultures. We are talking about redefining the Charr. The strongest leader wins. If Crecia and the other Imperators can take over and change the Charr WITHOUT the commander's help, then I have no problem with it because it is basically a tenet of Charr society that the strong prevail.

And if we don't intervene, Jormag wins.

If anything, we're helping the legitimate government (well, three-quarters of it) drive off an attempt at colonialism. We're not the colonial power, we're enforcing a Monroe Doctrine against an Elder Dragon. Let's also keep in mind that Bangar has invaded a non-charr region (the Mysterious Journal makes it clear the region was previously inhabited by tengu, humans, and norn) and has expressed plans to establish "a charr dominion that will extend from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha" - the very fact that the fighting is happening on the _western_ side of the mountains implies that if Bangar wins, he's probably going to sweep down into Kryta. Which makes it a potential Krytan problem even if the Krytans didn't want to "repay the favour" (was it colonialism when the charr joined the fighting in Lake Doric?). I'm pretty confident at this stage that the next chapter will be south of the current one as the Frost Legion pushes south and even the headquarters at Umbral Grotto need to be evacuated.

It's also very clear through the episode that the ultimate objective is to get to Bangar. However, since we can't just portal directly to his location, and it's pretty clear his army is an invading force, we have to fight his troops in the meantime.

You could call it foreign interference. You could call it a Cold War-esque proxy war between Jormag and Aurene. But these are different things to colonialism. We are not attempting to exert control over the Imperators (well, apart from Smodur, and in that case it's because Malice and Efram are also trying to make him less of a loose cannon). The legitimate charr government is making the decisions, and we're just providing support. We're acting as allies in support of the legitimate government against a coup backed by a foreign power that _is_ trying to exert control over the charr.

Plus, it was Bangar who _got_ us involved. The whole reason we were invited to the party in the first place was probably so Bangar could set up an opportunity to steal Braham's bow.

As for the whole "we have an Elder Dragon" thing: I meant to say this in the previous post, but forgot. It is an important plot point in previous episodes that we _cannot_ just sic Aurene on our enemies. Despite what Bangar thinks, she has her own mind, and would probably refuse even if the Commander asked. Like the Pact as a whole (note that while there are individuals who are part of the Pact getting involved, there is no overt Vigil, Priory, or Whispers presence on the ground?), Aurene won't get involved until it is clearly a dragon-related matter.

> @"Jokubas.4265" said:

> But that makes future events even more baffling to me. So Smodur ruins the plan and betrays everyone else, and then they save him. Why? Why would they save him? Not only does everyone else hate him at this point, but he himself now proved to be a traitor. I mean, the other characters have shown a tendency to want to redeem their traitors, but letting Ryland get his revenge might have been a way to salvage the plan, and in exchange you get to remove this dangerously rogue element from your own side. I mean, seriously, at this point, no one can trust Smodur. He's significantly more dangerous than Bangar's forces, because Bangar's at least open about being our enemy and isn't in our midst.

I think Crecia was acting largely on instinct there. She didn't have time to think it through - she saw the enemy she was parlaying with suddenly jump at an ally (however questionable) and didn't have time to think, just act.

It's entirely likely that she realised that maybe she _should_ have let Ryland kill Smodur a second after she lost the opportunity. There's a distinct "I'm not sure I just did the right thing" look on her face in the cutscene.

> I want a chapter where we care less about Bangar specifically, and let the Flame Legion shame the rest of the Charr for not really being any better. I mean, who cares if we stop Bangar from getting an Elder Dragon on his side if any Charr leader (like Smodur) is going to want to go to war and go to any lengths to fight it?

Gotta admit, I was thinking myself "I think I'd say I'm team Efram on this one."

> @"Revolution.5409" said:

> Just to make a guess, in the end the Commander's approach may turn out to be too forgiving and bring Jormag to awakening.

Heck, consider how things might have been different if Rytlock had killed Bangar when the latter dared him to.

Let's be realistic here, Ebonhawke at this stage is practically a de facto extension of Kryta, even if both sides maintain a polite fiction otherwise, and if Kryta was able to push the lines back (away from the fortification) with bad tactics, that suggests that it wasn't a matter of Kryta+Ebonhawke > Iron Legion, that suggests it was Kryta + Ebonhawke >>> Iron Legion. Maybe they're less than two legions, but I think there's more to it than "equivalent to one legion, give or take".

We don't really have any firm grasp on the numbers of the centaurs. However, their magic seems to be on a similar level to the Flame Legion, albeit using a different element. Their technology is cruder than the modern human and charr standard, probably being at about the level charr were in GW1. They don't seem to be _lacking_ in numbers, and it's probably reasonable to guesstimate that the average centaur can match the average charr (they seem to be at a similar level of militarisation), and the centaurs have a similar usage of war beasts to the charr (albeit with different beasts). The most direct analogue would be the Flame Legion, and I think with equal numbers of forces, the centaurs are at least not clearly inferior to the Flame Legion. (Or, for that matter, Blood or Ash. Iron is a little harder to judge due to having very different capabilities, but in-game, Iron war engines don't seem to be _that_ much better than catapults and centaur war beasts.

And we're talking about the entire centaur race here. To suggest that the entire centaur race can't even match one legion is to suggest that the entire centaur population is less than a quarter of the charr population. Which is _possible,_ but I consider it unlikely.

Regarding Caudecus - sure, he may be delusional, but I think it's telling that the centaurs didn't start having any real success until he started undermining Kryta's defences. He may have overestimated his ability to put the proverbial cork back into the bottle, to be sure, but it does seem to be that they were essentially an annoyance before. Similar to how the charr were viewed during the Guild Wars.

And, to return to the original question of whether the appellation of "the most powerful war machine in Tyria" will still apply post-civil-war:

Unless the charr come out of this with a Khan-Ur, they're still going to be a group of four allied nations, not a single nation. So if they can lay claim to the title collectively... so, potentially, can other alliances.

Now, consider the roles Kasmeer and Logan - who are now acting as representatives of Queen Jennah - played in Path of Fire and Season 3. While the final political situation in Elona is still to be decided, odds are pretty good that there's going to be some form of Kryta-Elona alliance at the end of it. While Rytlock may have been right that Joko's forces would have been in for "a world of hurt" if they took on the Legions... that was before the Legions started tearing each other apart in a new civil war, and Elona still seems to have a fairly strong military despite the damage done by Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. A Kryta-Elona axis in a couple of years' time might well turn out to have more military muscle than whatever is left of the charr war machine when the Icebrood Saga finishes.

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> This is not the case. the commander is openly opinionated against Smodur and very favorable towards Crecia. I am pretty sure we are going to help Crecia shape the Charr in the image she shes fit. That is colonialism. II'll just ask Aurene to kill anyone who says otherwise. Comply or die! I don't mind if we have the option. If the devs decide to allow us to decide the fate of the Char, they should let the player decide what that fate should be. Should the char change? Or should the Charr stay the way they are? That option should be given to the players.

Feels like you're using a ridiculously broad definition of "colonialism" here. In this hypothetical scenario we have a charr leader reshaping charr society in response to events that have shown a weakness in the traditional social structure, and you essentially seem to be calling it "colonialism" because there's a member of an outside culture who agrees with them and is supporting them to do so.

I recently shared something on social media talking about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which might be seen by people in the US. As I am not a US citizen, does this mean I am engaging in colonialism with the USA? Plus, there's also the question of the Commander themselves possibly being a charr... does this become colonialism because the Pact Commander has been exposed to outside influences? Does this make it colonialism if anyone ever makes a decision about their country that has been influenced in any way by exposure to ideas from outside their country?

Colonialism, as per the accepted definition, is one country exerting at least partial control over another. Charr leaders choosing to implement reforms, even if those reforms are inspired by or implemented with the assistance of outside parties, is not colonialism as long as the charr leaders are still genuinely making their own decisions. It could be called foreign _influence,_ and whether that's something to be considered undesirable is open for debate, but calling it colonialism cheapens the term.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

>

> By Mesmer support they meant just Kas.

>

> She's the only one around lol.

>

>

There are NPC mesmers holding portals open for convenience in some of the events. It's particularly noticeable in the Wolf's Crossing finale.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > (It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

>

> Fort Evennia, where mesmer portals are used left and right to evacuate freed prisoners.

>

> First time it's called out, but not the first time Seraph has used mesmer magic notably.

Without it being called out, that could just have easily been Shining Blade.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> But if 1 legion = 1 human nation (without a wall), then even with a good proportion of all four legions joining and dying with Bangar, I wouldn't put them on par to all two and a half human nations we can contact.

I don't think this equivalence is accurate.

It's worth keeping in mind that during the period in Sea of Sorrows, a surge of Krytan involvement in Ascalon was pushing the charr back. Using what was described at the time as human wave tactics. Right after what was probably the biggest disaster to strike Kryta, clearing out roughly half of its former territory including most of the larger settlements we saw in GW1. Now, these weren't sustainable in the long run, but it _does_ suggest that Kryta could outmuscle whatever was in Ascalon at the time until the other legions could reinforce.

Sure, Kryta was losing to centaurs at the start of the game, but...

1) Assuming that one legion alone would have no issue dealing with the centaurs may be underselling the centaurs, but more importantly:

2) Season 3 made it pretty clear that the centaurs only managed to achieve the level of success they did _because_ of Caudecus' efforts to undermine Jennah, aiding the centaurs through a variety of means from general insurgency (under the cover of "bandit" activity) drawing resources away from the centaur conflict, revealing weaknesses in Krytan defensive positions, and outright bribing or otherwise subverting Seraph units to look the other way as centaur forces passed through, allowing them to appear in regions they weren't expected to far from where the front line was _supposed_ to be. Without those factors... the Krytans, honestly seemed to consider the centaurs to be a bit of a joke. They didn't seem to be a significant factor in the novels (sure, northern Kryta wasn't the focus of either novel, but nobody seemed to be particularly concerned about them in Edge of Destiny at least, and they may have been part of Kryta's desire to make peace in GoA but if anything it seemed to be a less pressing concern than what the charr were facing at the time), while Caudecus seemed pretty confident that once he had Kryta under his control and stopped undermining Kryta's defences, he'd be able to drive the centaurs out in short order. So Kryta's problems seem to have been mostly caused by internal issues that have now been resolved. Now, there is the question of whether the damage Kryta took in the meantime is something they can just bounce back from... but the charr are now in their own crisis which probably will take them a while to bounce back from.

Also, food for thought: The Pact does not seem to be officially a part of the charr civil war, yet the Pact Marshal is acting in the capacity of a Seraph commander.

I did find it interesting that the charr have a concept of war crimes at all, although given how they villainise Gwen it's probably the typical hypocrisy of "when we do it to you it's doing what is necessary to win, but how dare you do it to us!"

Although I do wonder if there's some subtle fridge brilliance in it being Efram who uses the term. For all that the Flame Legion have been the bad guys up to now... they're probably the one legion that actually has the concept of noncombatants. Other legions... well, they have people who aren't necessarily in active frontline roles, but they're all expected to be able to fight if push comes to shove.

What really gets me with Smodur, though, is that he's been given an idiot ball wrapped in a villain ball. All of the "ruthless" things he's doing are actively _detrimental_ to what he's setting out to do. We've already discussed killing prisoners in what is essentially a hearts and minds war, but let's look at that Searing Crystal thing. It proved to be pretty easy to find the main entrance there, and Petraj Overlook is in Legion hands more often then not. If the occupants aren't front-line troops, it's unlikely that they'd withstand an assault from the Commander with a bit of support from the Petraj garrison... which would allow the Searing Crystal to be used somewhere else, grant the potential to take prisoners and extract friendly agents within the research outpost, and maybe even offer the chance to capture whatever is being worked on in there.

If Smodur was ruthlessly practical in a way that made you uncomfortable _but got results,_ that would be one thing. But, with the possible exception of executing deserters (something which, IIRC, even some modern militaries in countries that don't otherwise have the death penalty do), what Smodur is doing is stupid ruthless that's actively hindering his efforts to achieve his goals. Even if you took morality out of the equation altogether, he's doing the wrong thing.

(Note that Cinder isn't a deserter - she picked her side from the beginning.)

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> So about Charr being the strongest militarily...

Yeah, I was thinking that myself. Whatever boost they got from the Flame rejoining has now been undermined by apparently half their number joining Bangar. Now, that might be a case of them being evenly matched _in this theatre,_ while the united legions still have the homeland locked down, but even so... taking into account that the legions in GW2's timeframe were always more of an alliance of separate nations than one nation, it seems quite likely now that if you combine Kryta, Ebonhawke, and Elona, the charr would find themselves quite clearly outmatched.

(It is also interesting to note I think this is the first time we've actually had it specifically stated that the Seraph has it's own mesmer support. Although in practice I think they're just being used as a map mechanic - I don't think I've seen a Seraph mesmer actually fighting anywhere.)

Honestly, I wasn't fond of what they did with Smodur either. It's pretty clear that the writers wanted a bad guy among the united legions, didn't want it to be Rytlock or Crecia, and Smodur was the only one left they could squeeze into the role. Malice of Ash is just going to be too smart for that, and putting Efram in that role just as they're looking to redeem the Flame Legion? Yyyyeah, no.

It seems particularly weird when you consider that Smodur had been presented as possibly the most forward-thinking of the Imperators, including as recently as the prologue (where Smodur is the one that's completely fine with Aurene), which is very much at odds with his portrayal here. Yes, there's nothing to say that "forward thinking" and "ruthless" can't coincide in the same individual, but what we saw this episode wasn't pragmatic ruthlessness, it was _stupid_ ruthlessness. He cut short a negotiation which, if successful, could have _substantially_ shortened the war both through intelligence and through propaganda potential (if Ryland, who was coming across as being Bangar's top commander, defected to the United Legions, that'd probably stem the tide of defections the other way pretty quickly) and alienated the other leaders that he'd need the support of to become Khan-Ur... to the point where he's now pretty much guaranteed he'll never be accepted as such by the leaders of the other legions.

I don't think we can say that mist beings don't leave ripples in the mists, since we already HAVE a demon legend in Mallyx - while Mallyx seems to be more Margonite than pure Torment Demon and thus was probably human _once,_ the powers of his legend are fairly clearly linked to the Realm of Torment and his demonic incarnation rather than to his human existence. A better reason for excluding Kanaxai is simply that we already _have_ a Legendary Demon Stance. (Similar, in that regard, to Kuunavang, since we already have a Legendary Dragon Stance.)

I'm inclined to agree that Zunraa is probably not significant enough. She (I think Zunraa was a she, I might be wrong) is more of a local spirit/minor deity than anything world-shattering on her own.

Urgoz and Togo... Urgoz is what it became because of Shiro, and most of Togo's accomplishments were also in response to Shiro. Shiro was the mover and shaker behind both of them.

Well spotted regarding that conversation in Grothmar. Where is this conversation - I haven't been able to find it myself.

> @"Neeklahs.3064" said:

> @draxynnic.3719

> norn aren't humans they dont even see death in the same way as humans do, they happily jump off a bridge if this allows them to forge a legend.

Norn aren't humans, but they certainly seem to have human-like attitudes towards desecrating the dead.

> About Lefsi Spiritchaser he asked for a "emissary from the lands of the dead" thats more necromantic than ritualist if we apply it in gw2.

...because ritualists don't exist, at least not as an explicit thing, in GW2? Pulling spirits from the realm of the dead was always coming from the ritualist side, while necromancers dealt more with the Tyrian side of death. Either way, Lefsi is a terrible example, because he's explicitly not a necromancer. Maybe modern necromancers have absorbed that aspect of ritualism, but Lefsi himself is a ritualist, not a necromancer.

Either way, a few examples does not mean it's a signature profession of the race. There are quite a few human necromancers that can be listed as well.

> Also norn necromancy is diferent from human ones, they don't go around animating the dead, they're more bound to soul magic, blood magic, dark arts in general, that kind of thing but not animating dead kitten, the only respectable norn we see invoking creatures is Wiebe and he don't summon dead creatures, he summoned Kraits.

Human necromancers don't necessarily animate the dead either, but there's still a stigma because everyone knows they _could._

>

> About engineer you can see a lot of norn hunters carring shotguns and the fire rate is most like the engineer auto skill IMO, but yeah, a lot o norn uses guns, they arent the turret or fancy kind of engineer, they are most like the scrapper, firearms, Explosives. like i say mos like the Charr or Dredge thecnology, more linked to the forge than to the magitech, even in the personal story norn you steal a charr tank and use it, obviously the norn know about technology. Even in "The Great Hunt" norn intro you se a lot of norns with firearms.

Again, just carrying a few guns doesn't mean they're engineer-oriented. Going to need a lot more than a few guns to make that argument.

Let's look at humans, for instance. Watchknights are essentially human-made golems, although like golems there a mix of magic and engineering rather than being pure golems. Pretty much every enemy human faction we can fight has some sort of bomber or grenadier variant, while off the top of my head I don't think I've ever seen a generic norn hunter tossing grenades. Warriors (which do use firearms) and rangers seem to be _much_ more common. If we were rating which races had the most focus on engineering, norn would be lower on the scale than humans.

>

> the silvary list is fine for me, you use a lot of warriors or I think they are, random people swinging a sword, a mace or a greatsword. About the engineers, because the thing is that normal silvaris don't make things like scarlet, they make them grow like turrets, they have plant guns and kitten, like biotech.

You might see a few in the Nightmare Court, but the Court leans towards darker and more violent professions than mainstream sylvari society thanks to their nature.

You seem to have been observing norn closely - do the same for sylvari generic NPCs. Sylvari Wardens have three basic variants - an archer variant that behaves like a ranger longbow, a melee variant that uses ranger axe skills, and an elementalist variant that uses Earth Magic. Valiants also tend to be warriors rather than rangers. Given that the basic sylvari troops appear to be rangers rather than warriors, this suggests to me that the warrior profession is actually fairly rare among mainstream sylvari society.

There's also the discussion between Brenalynn and Thermaine, where the former is behaving as if a sylvari warrior is something exotic that she's never seen before, rather than something commonplace.

When it comes to sylvari plant turrets and such... this might have similar results to engineering, but it is explicitly _not_ engineering, but something specific to sylvari employing their own unique racial magic (which is probably closer to ranger magic than anything). If anything, their availability provides a disincentive to working with machinery, because they achieve similar effects without needing machines.

Rangers and scholar professions seem to be _much_ more common among sylvari than either warriors or engineers.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> I believe that you're relying on a comment made by Chelsea (?) on Reddit? The trouble with the idea that Bangar has been talking to Jormag is that, well, Bangar behaves as though Jormag doesn't have any interest in him. For example:

>

> 1) Bangar kills Almorra Soulkeeper, just moments after she has broken free of her original captors. Why would Jormag tell the Sons of Svanir that it wants to talk to Almorra in peace, only to send someone to kill her? Why not just command the Sons to kill her once they captured her? If Bangar and Jormag are _already_ in league, wouldn't Jormag instruct Bangar to preserve her, even if that meant that he would have to restrain her for the time being?

>

> 2) Bangar tries to kill the Commander, even as Jormag tells the Commander that it'll talk to them again "soon". If Bangar is in league with Jormag, why would he try to kill the Commander even as Jormag's will appears to _ignore_ Bangar, like he's _irrelevant?_ Shouldn't Jormag at least tell Bangar, in that very instance, to stand down? Shouldn't Jormag say that the Commander is useful and instruct Bangar to leave them unharmed, just as it instructed the Sons to leave Almorra unmolested?

>

> 3) Bangar seems to be trying to get Jormag's attention. Bangar states that he is "Jormag's champion _now_". That doesn't mean that Jormag actually agrees. And why does Bangar say _now?_ That implies that Jormag had a champion prior. Maybe it was the fraenir? The fraenir looks like he's been pretty well possessed by Jormag, going so far as to praise the dragon. Bangar shows no such loyalty. How can Jormag work with someone like Bangar when so much of the whispers and the behavior of those affected by them relates to _betrayal?_ I'd say Jormag hates traitors, Bangar included.

>

> 4) Although Aurene states that Jormag has left both the Commander and Bangar alive, she then tells the Commander that Jormag has spoken to them "at length" . She makes no mention of Jormag speaking to Bangar. Why not? Because Jormag probably hasn't provided Bangar with anything more than the whispers it provides everyone else.

>

> All of this leads me to think that, although Chelsea wrote something on Reddit and a few have taken it as gospel, the vision with which we are presented has nothing to do with Bangar and everything to do with Aurene and/or the Commander. Jormag addresses the Commander as "Champion" and has never revoked the title. No _objective_ evidence has ever emerged that it has said the same of Bangar. (By _objective_ evidence, I mean evidence that can be independently verified by an ear or eye witness to a conversation.) Let's go back to the vision, for a moment.

>

> The vision, aka the Icebrood Saga announcement trailer, has Jormag addressing a "Champion" whilst it presents us with a picture of Tyria, essentially stating that it isn't the enemy. The vision doesn't appear to settle upon any particular race, displaying charr, kodan, centaurs, humans, norn, indicating that there is no way to _infer_ who it is addressed to based on the races presented. The only way to infer who it is addressed to is to consider Jormag's statement that the "Champion" has nothing to fear from it. And the _only_ character that it has directly referred to as _"Champion"_ is the Commander, not Bangar.

While you make valid points, I think there is an explanation for all of this:

Namely, Jormag is playing the field. He/she/they/whatever does not, at this stage, know who's going to fall and who isn't, or who would be the most desirable champion in the end. So Jormag's working on _everybody,_ and not burning bridges unless in a situation where that is absolutely necessary. Bangar could be Jormag's primary focus as the most attractive combination of strength and suggestibility, but if Jormag can manage to get the Commander or the leader of the Vigil, then that's a major score.

So, working through the various points:

1) Jormag allows Bangar to kill Almorra because, at that point, Jormag doesn't have complete control over Bangar but considers him to be the better bet. Almorra has just shown that she rejects the idea of working with Jormag to the point that she'd fight Bangar over it, and Almorra then _lost_ (technically to Ryland rather than Bangar, but still). So Almorra has shown herself to be less likely to turn _and_ less valuable even if she did than Bangar. Preserving Almorra on the slim chance she could be turned wasn't worth the risk of demonstrating to Bangar who would _really_ be in charge of their 'partnership'.

2) Can we be so sure that Jormag wasn't responsible for Bangar's 'poor aim'? Made for a pretty effective way of ending the conversation before anyone had the chance to persuade Bangar or Ryland that what they were doing was wrong. Even if the shot was intended to be lethal, though, it's another case of playing both sides. The opportunity to take the Commander out is one worth taking, but the context is one where the attempt wasn't made by Jormag directly, and so Jormag still has the opportunity to attempt to corrupt the Commander later. Killing the Commander then and there was a potential big win for Jormag, but continuing to attempt to influence the Commander means that if the Commander does survive, there's still the potential for an even bigger win later.

3) I think the actual champion that was supposedly being replaced was Drakkar, although you're right that Jormag might not agree (although Jormag does seem to think losing a champion or two to be a reasonable sacrifice to potentially gain those that are capable of defeating those champions). However, Jormag's entire strategy with Bangar seems to be to let Bangar think that he can be the one in charge of the partnership, until Bangar is in too deep to back out.

4) Elder Dragons aren't omniscient. Aurene probably has a good idea about what's going on with the Commander due to their connection, but unless she's inherited Glint's universal long-range mind-reading ability (and I don't _think_ there's evidence that she has?) there's no reason to think she has any special insight into what's going on with Jormag and Bangar specifically.

That Jormag is still keeping Bangar on a slack leash suggests that whatever their relationship is, Bangar isn't so deep yet that he can't back out again if Jormag overplays their hand. However, none of the points exclude the possibility that Jormag is working on Bangar, it's just that Jormag is willing to work on others as well when doing so doesn't put Jormag's efforts to turn Bangar in jeopardy.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> But her talking about listening to mortals sounds more like after her purification. Being given free will doesn't mean she would suddenly turn against Kralkatorrik. Her dialogue there also states that she protected Kralkatorrik while he slept, but the purification ritual is said to have happened _during the dragonrise_, not after. Which implies that she had spent some time with free will but serving Kralkatorrik anyways.

>

> Though it's a bit tricky since it's also said that she hid the dwarves, seers, Forgotten, and jotun from the Elder Dragons. Best guess would be, given her purification ritual happened in Orr where Zhaitan went to sleep, would be that Kralkatorrik went to sleep before the rest, resulting in an order of:

>

> 1. Purification ritual

> 2. Glint still served Kralkatorrik for a bit

> 3. Kralkatorrik went to sleep(maybe 1?)

> 4. Glint betrayed Kralkatorrik and hid the races, Zhaitan moved to Orr (formerly Kralk's territory) in search of magic

> 5. Zhaitan fell asleep, starved

>

> But I'm not really arguing against her memory being fragmented. I **agree** that some pieces exist, and making the stance that the vision _is one of those pieces_.

>

Personally, I've always just assumed that the "protected him while he slept" just means that she was around for more than one Dragonrise. This doesn't mean that she's been around since the very first cycle, though.

> > Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

> It really only has one assumption. That the vision predates his torment.

A large part of your argument is based on the assertion that Kralkatorrik's original motive 1) can't simply be power for its own sake (a common enough motivation in the Guild Wars world) and 2) must be something that's relevant to the present day, as opposed to some motivation that was relevant to sane Kralkatorrik back before he participated in his first cycle but which is now lost to the mists of time.

Call them assumptions, call them holes in the logic... we don't have solid evidence of either of those. Possible? Yes. The only possible interpretation? Not at all.

>

> > Particularly given this series of lines:

> >

> > **Kralkatorrik's Torment:** THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!

> > **Kralkatorrik:** They are her strength.

> > **Kralkatorrik's Torment:** SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!

> > **Kralkatorrik:** She is the first of her kind.

> >

> > Look at the first two lines in particular. _Torment_ clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: _They are her strength._ Sane Kralkatorrik _agrees_ with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

> >

> > Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

> I would argue a third potential (though I do follow the theory that the Forgotten ritual allowed the division between Torment and his "sane" self - I hesitate greatly to call it sane though), being that he recognizes _why_ Aurene isn't afflicted by Torment.

>

> I've mentioned it before in recent discussions, but in Scion & Champion instance, Glint's message says this:

>

> > Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.

> > Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.

> > Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...

> > Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.

> > Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.

>

> If Glint could figure out that a bond with mortal can lessen the burden of magic and how addictive and painful it can be, then no doubt so could Kralkatorrik, especially after having multiple fights with her.

>

> It isn't that Kralkatorrik would be giving up his hatred of mortals in this scenario, nor would it be that he had a change of heart (the devs pretty much said otherwise in the Guild Chat iirc), but rather that he merely acknowledges a simple fact: by bonding with mortals, Aurene is in a different situation than he could ever be.

This, honestly, feels like a change of heart to me, which the devs explicitly said he didn't have. He hated the idea of the vision, but accepted it when he realised it would make his granddaughter stronger (or at least saner) than he was? That sounds like a change of heart to me.

Furthermore, while Sane Kralkatorrik doesn't talk directly to the PC much, when he does, he does so with respect. Sure, that could be specifically because of the link with Aurene, or maybe he has a "be polite even to people you hate" attitude, but... well, we could go over each line with a fine-toothed comb and explain it away, but the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing. There's no undertone of "I hate this but I love my granddaughter more".

Ultimately, there's going to need to be a lot more evidence in favour of your hypothesis before I'd even be willing to consider it balance-of-probabilities more likely than alternative hypotheses, let alone something that can be stated as fact.

>

> > What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

> I wouldn't be so sure there - the Torment's words would still work if "own kind" meant "what belongs to Kralkatorrik" aka the branded. By being a child of Glint, who was branded, Aurene would too be a branded in a manner of speaking. But by betraying Kralkatorrik and all branded, they betray "their own kind". Not kind as in species, but kind as in allegiance/servitude.

It's another possible interpretation, sure, but it nevertheless provides a reason for the Torment personality to care about Glaust... at least until the Torment personality became aware of her defection to the other side.

Sure, you can explain away every bit of conflicting evidence... but look over the whole set of evidence and be honest. Can you really say that your hypothesis is the _only_ possible interpretation?

Crystalline Memories isn't our only source on Glint's memories. For instance, in Edge of Destiny she talks about her purpose having been to listen in on the thoughts of mortals. Now, there was certainly a degree of deception by not telling the whole truth there, but she seems to have a pretty good idea of what her function was before being purified by the Forgotten. Sure, we're told that her memory before than was fragmented (although if that particular recording was made shortly after the purification, it's possible that some of those memories returned over time) but, nevertheless, those fragments _exist._ It's not a complete amnesia, more like remembering parts of your early childhood.

Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

Particularly given this series of lines:

**Kralkatorrik's Torment:** THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!

**Kralkatorrik:** They are her strength.

**Kralkatorrik's Torment:** SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!

**Kralkatorrik:** She is the first of her kind.

Look at the first two lines in particular. _Torment_ clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: _They are her strength._ Sane Kralkatorrik _agrees_ with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

@"Neeklahs.3064"

Norn tolerating necromancers because they fit within Raven's domain is no different to humans tolerating them because they're part of Grenth's domain. There are pretty strong indications that they have a similar attitude as humans when it comes to animating the dead, though. There's probably less of an overt disgust response since norn judge everyone by their own actions rather than part of a group, so they won't overtly show disrespect to one necromancer just because another went bad like a human might, but a handful of norn necromancers that are mostly Raven followers doesn't show a general trend towards use of necromancy than the presence of human necromancers that are mostly Grenth followers.

(I'd also note in that respect that Lefsi Spiritchaser was a ritualist, not a necromancer, and ritualists were viewed quite favourably in Cantha. But even if Lefsi was a necromancer - one necromancer in a quest specifically involving the realm of the dead does not point to them being common)

Similarly, regarding mesmers and engineers - the fact that there are a few around that you can run into does not mean that they're particularly representative of the race, and despite living in what was formerly dwarf territory and right next to Iron Legion territory the norn as a race seem to be below humans when it comes to advanced technology. I'm amazed that you're nominating mesmer for norn based on a couple of characters, given how many prominent human mesmers there are.

I'm also amazed at where you got your sylvari list from. We've been explicitly told that engineers are rare among sylvari and Scarlet was a special case. We also have indications that warriors are rare among non-Nightmare Sylvari. If you go into a sylvari-controlled region and observe how Wardens and Valiants fight, you should notice that most of them are rangers, and even among the Nightmare Court rangers seem to be _at least_ as common as warriors.

We _were_ told, back in the day, that "Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before." Could be unreliable narrator again, but that seems like a hint that Glint is young relative to Kralkatorrik. The Crystalline Memories instance also reveals that while Glint's memory before the cleansing is fragmented and incomplete, she _does_ remember bits and pieces of it, including enough for her to believe that she was created to prevent the vision from coming to pass.

And if we're to bring her pre-cleansing memories into question, we're _also_ bringing into question the source for Kralkatorrik having taken steps to prevent the vision at all.

As for Glint's survival - even in the grip of Torment, Kralkatorrik didn't destroy the things that he felt already belonged to him, and if Glint had a particular purpose, she's useful. As insane as the Torment personality was, it's clearly still sapient, so while Kralkatorrik might have been animalistic in behaviour, he was never of animal intelligence. And, heck, even animals often look after their young (depending on the species, of course).

From what we're told, the vision would have to have been a _long_ time ago to have predated Kralkatorrik having any Torment at all. There's the possibility of having moments of lucidity in there, and while Glint is old, she doesn't seem to be old enough to predate the development of any Torment at all.

At the bottom line, we simply don't know enough about the timeline to pin Kralkatorrik's "not good" status on his response to the vision, _especially_ since we have the fact of all Elder Dragons having consumed having too much magic as a common thread. We have plenty of cases of greed for magic leading to conflict even _before_ magic-induced insanity kicks in (the eponymous Guild Wars, for instance), and greed for magic is a common theme for Elder Dragons and apparently a temptation for dragons in general, so I think Occam's Razor suggests that the explanation for Kralkatorrik - and the other Elder Dragons - being bad pre-Torment is that at some point they decided to start eating magic regardless of the consequences. The impression I get is that Glint herself is not so old that the vision could have come before Kralkatorrik was afflicted with Torment.

Either way, we _certainly_ don't have enough information to point to Sane Kralkatorrik rejecting the vision as anything more than a theory. Especially since he seems to approve of the end result of the vision in the instance. Sure, you _could_ interpret that as purely being a case of loving his granddaughter despite his granddaughter doing something that he hates so much that opposing it has been his primary motivation, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. It's _much_ more consistent with his behaviour that the vision is something his sane self approves of, but it came at a time when Torment was in control of most of his actions.