draxynnic.3719

There's also a variant that uses Payback to keep Thieves' Guild active permanently. Requires a steady stream of enemies to mark and kill, though.

Daredevil, however, can give you an average of about 22% extra damage, which doesn't rely on anything other than dodging regularly and keeping Weakness on the target (which happens naturally through the traits if nothing else), all of which stacks with any other buffs flying around. Doesn't match what Deadeye can do with a steady stream of marks, but that's not always what you've got, and even with Bounding Dodger rather than Unhindered Combatant, it can be easier to stay alive with Daredevil.

Honestly, though, best advice would probably be to try them both and see. Maybe even have both build templates running so you can switch between them on the fly, if you have the slots to spare.

In all honesty, either can work.

Deadeye generally shines in situations where enemies are going down fast enough that you can maximise the usage of marks. Exactly how long this means depends on your exact build, but generally you want enemies dying right after maxing Malice, and with some builds it might even be ideal for the enemy to die right after being marked.

Daredevil can often work better against large single targets or in situations where mobility is important. You probably won't be landing Bound damage, but daredevil can stack up a lot of damage modifiers.

There hasn't been a Khan-Ur for centuries. A few more generations without one isn't going to hurt anybody.

I'd also question whether it's something that the majority of charr actually _want._ There's a reason why there hasn't been one for so long - the leaders of the legions have consistently decided that they'd rather that there wasn't a Khan-Ur at all than to submit to the leadership of a Khan-Ur that isn't a member of their legion, and the legions are evenly matched enough that one isn't going to be able to conquer the other three. It'd take such a conquest or a figure which all four legions are convinced is a good enough leader to be worth giving up their independence for there to be another Khan-Ur... and the de facto leaders of three legions have now decided that Smodur could never be that person. His dreams of Khan-Urship are dead, as a result of his own impulsiveness.

When it comes to Ryland and Cinder...

Well, we don't know what Ryland might have done. Letting him walk out with Cinder probably wouldn't have been the right move, to be sure, but killing her cuts off all possibilities. You want to keep your options open.

As for this:

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> >Wars aren't won by killing the enemy. Wars are won by persuading the enemy to stop fighting.

> I don't know what world you live in, but wars are absolutely won by killing the enemy. This is just a nonsense comment to begin with.

I live in a world with history books, and come from a military family. Wars absolutely _are_ won by getting the enemy to stop fighting. Like I said, killing the enemy is an effective way of getting them to stop fighting, but is not always the most efficient. There are a lot of military stratagems aimed towards having a psychological effect that will degrade the enemy's will to fight rather than trying to maximise the casualties inflicted upon enemy soldiers, both at the grand strategy level (things like civilian bombing was intended to provoke a revolution among the enemy's population - it didn't work, but that was the general idea) down to the level of individual engagements being fought in a way that encouraged the enemy to run away _or surrender_ rather than fighting to the last man, often in a manner that expends resources that could otherwise be used to kill the enemy.

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> Who would care about the "influence" of a failed warband's remaining 2 members whose turncoat conversion was effected at knife point with half of them in captivity. The notion that this would have any effect at all on the war is preposterous beyond reason. The more likely resulting sentiment would be: "Oh, the oh-so mighty Steel Warband was soundly defeated and now these two treacherous pups bowed their heads to a new master. Any charr worth their salt would've had the dignity to die in battle instead".

Perhaps, but even that would likely have a stronger effect than simply killing them. Ryland is Smodur's right hand, after all - someone so high up defecting is going to be a shock. Even if it gets written off as "he should have died instead", it WOULD have a morale effect if someone that high up switched sides - since you can't heap such scorn on them without the question coming up of who Bangar puts trust into, and what information Ryland may have taken with him.

(Which, y'know, is another reason why it's worthwhile to try to get him to switch - _information_)

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > They'll keep fighting, but unless he plans to assassinate everyone in that room, he'll never become Khan-Ur. Bangar may or may not be defeated in the end, but Smodur has already lost, and what did he gain by murdering a prisoner in the middle of a negotiation? Nothing significant.

> He gained a lot actually.

>

> Specifically, he brings the Steel Warband one step closer to being totally destroyed. Its mentioned more then one that the Steel Warband has the eyes of a lot of Charr, and serves as an inspiration to them, with Crecia mentioning how "Steel could turn the tide. Our people flock to you—they're your responsibility. You're their future."

>

> If there is any one group that could really rally the Charr against Smodur's attempt to become Khan-Ur, and take it away from him, its them. Bangar has gone rogue, Malice doesn't want the job, and Efram wouldn't get it simply due to being Flame Legion, besides maybe Crecia, the Steel Warband is the next biggest threat to his attempt at the the Khan-Ur title at this time.

Malice doesn't want the job, and Efram won't get it due to being Flame Legion... but there's no _need_ for there to be a Khan-Ur. There hasn't been one for centuries. If the de facto leaders of the other legions refuse to ever accept Smodur as Khan-Ur, he'll never become Khan-Ur.

Short of replacing the leadership of all three legions, that's it. He's lost. One moment of impulsiveness, and the Khan-Urship will be forever outside of his reach. That's not pragmatism. That's stupidity.

As for bringing the Steel Warband closer to being completely destroyed...

Wars aren't won by killing the enemy. Wars are won by _persuading the enemy to stop fighting._ Yes, killing is a pretty effective way to stop someone from fighting... but it's not the only way, and it's not always the most efficient way.

There was a chance to get Ryland to stop fighting... and maybe even start fighting for the other side (getting a well-respected commander of Bangar to switch sides would be a much more potent psychological coup than killing him could ever be). About the only thing keeping Ryland with Bangar previously was Ryland's belief in Bangar's legitimacy and the chain of command. Now, though, it's personal. Ryland has one of the most powerful motivators in existence - revenge for the murder of a loved one while said loved one was a helpless prisoner. There is a point to be made that Ryland should not have been allowed to walk out with Cinder... but there's refusing to let go of a bargaining chip, and then there's _setting the bargaining chip on fire._ Smodur did the latter. That's not pragmatism. That's stupidity.

There was an opportunity, however slim it might have been, to get all the influence of the Steel Warband for him... while also keeping his allies on side. Now, he's pretty much ensured that Ryland will never switch sides, and that none of the current leaders of the other legions will support him to become Khan-Ur.

He might still be on the winning side in the end, but as far as his ambitions are concerned? He's lost everything. He'll continue to be Imperator of the Iron Legion until he dies, but he will never be the Khan-Ur.

> @"Kossage.9072" said:

> Another reason could be more sinister: as seen with Subject Alpha, it became an unpredictable "wild card" whose loyalties remain unknown. It was able to attune to different dragon hiveminds' frequencies and somehow wrestle control of rival dragons' minions for itself while turning the various minions into a pack that viewed it as their pack alpha. Perhaps the dragons are aware of this outcome and how these wild card champions could threaten their rule if left unchecked, which is why we haven't seen any crosscorrupted minions in the wild and why different dragons' minions seem to avoid one another's territory (e.g. Mordrem and Branded never interacting in Ascalon, Icebrood ceasing their relentless assault on the Stone Summit fortress in Far Shiverpeaks once the Summit remnants had been infused with Primordus's power as revealed in Arngirn's journal and why Icebrood and Destroyers never got close to one another in Darkrime Delves).

This is pretty much my thinking. When an Elder Dragon first corrupts a minion, they can 'program' the minion so that its first loyalty is to the dragon (we see this in Edge of Destiny, which gives us a look into the mind of a dragon minion). Once a being is corrupted, though, a second dragon can't just come in and rewrite the minion so that it's loyal to them instead. It either remains loyal to the first dragon (assuming it hasn't since been cleansed in some manner) or it sunders the link entirely and leaves the minion uncontrolled. Either way, the second dragon gains nothing that it couldn't gain from simply killing a rival dragon's minion.

This naturally explains not only why the dragons don't corrupt each other's minions (they have nothing to gain from doing so), but it also neatly explains the _exceptions._ Aurene has no problem infusing her power into Caithe because Aurene doesn't _want_ to rob Caithe of her free will, so it doesn't matter if Caithe's status as a cleansed minion of Mordremoth (technically a descendent of one, but nevertheless) prevents her from doing so: she had no plan to do so in the first place. The Inquest are happy to engage in multi-corruption experiments because they already need to find some alternative means of controlling their experimental subjects, so why would they care if corrupting, say, a Risen with Brand energy fails to transfer ownership of the minion from Zhaitan to Kralkatorrik? They don't want the minion to be under the control of _either_ dragon.

No special exceptions "because lab conditions are different to what's in the wild" needed - the theory both neatly explains why we don't normally see it while _also_ explaining the exceptions. Elder Dragons who corrupt minions because they want to gain control over their minions won't do so to minions of other dragons because doing so won't grant them control. But for non-dragons, and dragons that don't care about control such as Aurene, this doesn't matter.

Heck, there's a discussion somewhere in the original release where it's noted that the sylvari aren't actually _immune_ to Zhaitan's corruption... it's just that instead of becoming Risen, sylvari that are afflicted with Zhaitan corruption simply die. Almost like Zhaitan was simply going "you are no use to me" and discarding them.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field

> Which gives us a rough location of where the minions can be found, and implies that they appear like sea creatures "hereto unknown". If they were corrupted sea creatures, then they would have enough resemblance to be known.

It is worth noting that we do have examples of previously unknown sea creatures showing up due to being displaced by the DSD, such as the karka. If the karka were unknown to land-dwellers until Southsun was introduced despite being regarded as ancient by deep sea dwellers such as the largos, it seems likely that there are additional natural sea creatures that remain unknown.

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> Maybe because you let your pet do all the tanking work you havent learned how to survive without it?

Dragonhunter doesn't have a pet, and if the OP mostly plays ranger on soulbeast, it's probably reasonable to presume that the pet isn't out all the time.

> @"Josiah.2967" said:

> Core Guardian is technically better than anything Necromancer has access to.

I find that difficult to believe. Core guardian can outDPS power reaper in raid scenarios, but that's because the design of reaper is to be fairly self-sufficient in terms of boons, vulnerability application, crit chance, and so on. Which means it will often do better running solo, or in smaller-scale content like sPvP (currently, both power reaper and core carrion necro are considered to be meta while there are no guardian builds, core or otherwise, that are considered such, although there are still several guardian builds that do well enough - after all, a build being 'meta' usually means it's actually a bit OP), but doesn't benefit as much from team environments because it's already got the stuff that the team would normally supply, and has lower base damage to balance how much might, vulnerability, crit chance, and now quickness it can give itself. Guardian really shines in group content where, depending on build, it can either throw out a lot of boons or selfishly accept a lot of boons to boost its damage, but it isn't as good at getting high damage _solo_ as necromancer and herald can.

Depends on your priorities, really. Necromancer certainly needs a bit of help in high-end group PvE, but it's somewhat difficult to see how to do that without supercharging it in playing solo: vulnerability and selfishly applying boons to itself is in so much of its core kit. Maybe the answer is to enforce splits in competitive mode and just not care if necro ends up becoming the king of solo PvE. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

> > >

> > > He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

> >

> > And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

> >

> > Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

> Yes, you're right, everyone is going home now and stop fighting Jormag and Bangar. Oh, wait a minute, they won't!

>

> Maybe he doesn't care if some whiny kittens don't want to be his friends after the war has been won.

>

They'll keep fighting, but unless he plans to assassinate everyone in that room, he'll never become Khan-Ur. Bangar may or may not be defeated in the end, but Smodur has already lost, and what did he gain by murdering a prisoner in the middle of a negotiation? Nothing significant.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't _want_ minions that lack free will.

> Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

Special pleading. Kudu's monster existed, and isn't the only example, just the first one we encountered. There's nothing special about doing something in a lab that can't be done in the wild - the same physics happen in a lab as in the wild, it's just that conditions are more controlled. The Elder Dragons are happy to blend multiple forms of draconic energy into their minions, just that they only do so _after_ the dragon that originally presided over that domain is dead.

NPCs saying things are unreliable narrators, with little reason to believe they know more than we do. In fact, they might well know _less,_ depending on how common knowledge of the Inquest's experiments are. We've seen it be a plot point that what an NPC says is wrong several times before.

What we know is that, in practice, the Elder Dragons do not try to corrupt minions who are already claimed by another dragon, apart from Aurene forming her connection with Caithe.

Hrrrmn. I've never experienced firebrand to be weak in PvE - it is a bit more support-oriented and condition-oriented than dragonhunter, but power solo firebrand is definitely something that can work. Possibly more sensitive to bringing the right build to the right job than dragonhunter, but if you're following builds that are intended for the environment you're in, that shouldn't be a problem. Warrior is something I find often underperforms, but that could be personal inclination and not knowing its ins and outs as much - there are certainly people out there who do well with it and even proclaim it to be one of the easiest professions for PvE.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"Tyse the Black.6789" said:

> > Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well. Too much aegis spam (sometimes without having a to even press anything) is a common theme in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential (of both power and Condi). The arguments for guardian being so OP for a long time have been so that it checks a bunch of different builds, most of which have now been culled. It's guardians turn

>

> Instead of promoting nerfs on classes you need to focus on buffing other classes, it saids allot about you as a person when you come into a class post and only focusing on one issue with one class, you only care your getting whopped by gaurdians in wvw you clearly do not care enough about balance to have an objective and constructive perspective in the first place.

To be fair, he mentions sPvP circumstances as well... although to be _accurate,_ guardians have now fallen out of the sPvP meta, even if several guardian builds are still fairly solid.

WvW zergfights are... well, zergfights are something the game allows in a specific mode but isn't really designed for. ArenaNet takes it into account, but having too many design decisions based on zergfights would be letting the tail wag the dog.

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> I think he's acting pretty pragmatic.

>

> He's not buying into the abject nonsense that redeeming a single traitor who just happens to be someone's kid will fix everything. He's manipulating the "commander" into doing things they wouldn't do of their own accord and getting results. He's playing to win.

And in doing so, he's alienating every ally he has. That's not playing to win. That's setting himself up to lose.

Malice says it in the episode: "No one here will ever bow to you". He's ticked off the Imperator of one legion and likely future Imperators of two more, along with at least one influential non-charr person of importance. His short-sightedness has torpedoed any chance he had of becoming Khan-Ur.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > I would shot Ryland dead rather than take him with me. He seems to be a really kitten individual. He murdered Almorra Soulkeeper.

> Uhh, it was Bangar who killed Almorra. Ryland argued AGAINST killing her.

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > As for the truce... now _you're_ drawing a pretty long bow if you think Smodur was just taking advice from Malice and Almorra. He's not taking advice from Malice (if anything, he's almost working at cross purposes) in Drizzlewood Coast, so if you think he just let Malice dictate the terms of an agreement that involved ceding Iron Legion territory to a (former) enemy, there's still a discrepancy in characterisation there... if anything, a bigger one.

> Not at all. As has been mentioned before. Smodur has always done what he believed he needed to do to survive, and to get the position of Khan-Ur. At this point, the only thing that really stood in his way from that, Bangar, is now a traitor to the Charr, and an enemy to everyone. To him, hes got it in the bag.

> * He asked for help from Blood and Ash to deal with all the problems in Ascalon because he just couldn't do it himself, and there was no way he was going to survive without said help.

> * He accepted to peace treaty with humanity in order to get forces off of that front, and onto the others, because those were more pressing, and having humanity as an ally bolsters his forces against the other threats in Ascalon, and secures his position more.

> * His willingness to accept Aurene in "Bound by Blood" was almost certainly because he sees the use of being on good terms with an Elder Dragon, and not because he actually cares about her as an individual.

>

> And in Drizzlewood he kills the traitors because, not only have they proven themselves untrustworthy, but he also doesn't need them to win. Likewise, he has every reason to kill Cinder because the Steel Warband are a powerful symbol among the Charr, and a potential threat to his position as Khan-Ur should they not agree to it. He, again, also doesn't need the help of the Dominion's traitor forces to succeed, so he has no reason to let them live.

>

> His character is wholly consistent. He makes allies with those he sees as necessary for survival, and doesn't with those he has no need for.

* He didn't have to ask for help for the problems in Ascalon because it was already the policy of the allied legions to assist each other (which, as far as we currently know, means assisting each other in Ascalon because that's where the main conflict was, but we do see evidence of Branded and ghosts as far north as Grothmar, and there may be threats in Ash territory we don't know about that the charr collaborate against).

* Sure, he agreed to the peace treaty for pragmatic reasons, _but he was the one calling the shots._ Malice and Almorra may have supported the idea, but ultimately it was Smodur that was sitting across the table, Smodur making the concessions, and Smodur that made it happen in the end. He'd have a pretty poor case to be Khan-Ur if he was letting outside powers (and, yes, Malice technically counts as an outside power in Ascalon, let alone Almorra of the Vigil) dictate to him the terms of a treaty that involved his own domain.

The inconsistency is that in the past, he's been a proponent of turning enemies into allies in order to strengthen his position and weaken his remaining enemies. At the parley, there was a potential opportunity to do exactly that... and Smodur destroyed it.

His past portrayal made him really appear smarter than that, but here he's been carrying the proverbial idiot ball.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't _want_ minions that lack free will.

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > Also consider that using skills well takes practice and many non-engineers will have no clue what to do when hopping in a golem suit. Same scenario with conjured weapons, siege golems, the old warrior banners, etc.. Even the Asura elite skill with massive c/d... nobody uses it, and I doubt anyone can recall a single skill from the skill bar (ref: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Power_Suit ).

> >

> > Yeah, this is a problem across the entire game, and I kinda wish there was somewhere you could go to familiarise yourself with those skills. For instance, I'm pretty sure that Signet of Humility wouldn't have needed to have been nerfed so much in competitive modes if there was an arena somewhere where you could fight as a moa and properly learn the skills (it'd probably be a lot less effective if more of the player base knew how to use the skills).

>

> It took me a long time to figure out that 5 skill was my best friend as a moa.

Often the way, although I have seen times when the right move was to just yolo and keep fighting as a moa.

> @"juno.1840" said:

> Also consider that using skills well takes practice and many non-engineers will have no clue what to do when hopping in a golem suit. Same scenario with conjured weapons, siege golems, the old warrior banners, etc.. Even the Asura elite skill with massive c/d... nobody uses it, and I doubt anyone can recall a single skill from the skill bar (ref: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Power_Suit ).

Yeah, this is a problem across the entire game, and I kinda wish there was somewhere you could go to familiarise yourself with those skills. For instance, I'm pretty sure that Signet of Humility wouldn't have needed to have been nerfed so much in competitive modes if there was an arena somewhere where you could fight as a moa and properly learn the skills (it'd probably be a lot less effective if more of the player base knew how to use the skills).

I'd be curious to see the figures on large-scale WvW as well. Sure, you SEE a lot of people when a zerg forms, but how does that compare to the actual player base? And when it comes to high-end PvE, it's not just raids any more - strikes and higher-tier fractals can also benefit from support.

But one possible direct answer to your question is that the hypothetical support elite spec wouldn't necessarily have access to a group stability/projectile hate combo (Defense Field). It almost certainly wouldn't be able to throw out group Superspeed like a scrapper can. I'd be very surprised if it has an equivalent to Sneak Gyro. It'd probably be more fragile than the heal scrapper in general since it won't have so many traits dedicated to its own survival (although it would probably have some durability simply through being able to self-support a bit, as all support builds do). It's probably not going to have a means of stomping foes at a distance.

A lot of that is stuff that can be useful in WvW, but... generally isn't all that important in high-end PvE. So you might well see a situation where the heal scrapper remains meta in WvW, but the new elite specialisation gives engineer more opportunities in high-end PvE. Basically a case of 'take what you need for the content you're in'.

Will need to look in more detail later, but one thing that's jumping out at me is that a daze with every gyro is a LOT of CC. Engineers in general and ESPECIALLY scrappers already have the potential to throw out some obnoxious CC if they build for it, and Blast Gyro is already part of that - letting them CC with every gyro might take that into the stratosphere.

> @"juno.1840" said:

> Scrapper is meta in WvW and superspeed is a very valuable contribution. Your original post needs a goal/problem statement, along with an executive summary (TLDR).

>

> Why you want to change it is buried in the wall of text, but honestly I don't agree with the position the it's half tank, half support. There's a reason Minstrel's armor is half tank -- and it's not because people are actually looking for a tank or off-tank. The reason is you can't provide support when you're dead. Another way to look at it, if ANET release a new 3-stat configuration which was healing power (primary), concentration (secondary), and (secondary), nobody would pick it over minstrels.

>

> I know this isn't a discussion about stats, I'm simply illustrating that support roles need to be tanky so the justification of "not pure support" isn't valid with regards to reworking superspeed. I rather enjoy the current play style, and there's some skill required as to when and how to apply superspeed to your party in WvW.

Power, healing power, and concentration (Harrier's) is already meta for a lot of heal builds in PvE. So I don't think it'd be too farfetched for a similar set just with the HP stat first to also be used. Healing Power, Concentration, and Condition Damage might well see use with several healer builds if it was introduced, especially in raids which reward (or outright _require_) bringing condition damage.

In WvW, yeah, you need the extra durability.

They have similarities, but I think there is a big difference in their methodology. Ritualists seemed to act in a fairly deliberate and scholarly manner, interacting with relatively weak spirits and keeping them at arm's length. Revenants, meanwhile, look for the most powerful echoes out there and dive right in, and their abilities pretty much all seem to come from what they've learned from those echoes (even most weapon skills are themed that way, it's just that they're relatively low-power skills that the revenant can use with their own magic once they've learned them rather than needing to channel a specific legend to access them).

So... a ritualist might be able to teach a revenant a few weapon skills, but going beyond that, I think the differences in their approaches would be just too different, even if the energies involves are similar. It'd be like a fire elementalist trying to teach a berserker - sure, the berserker is _probably_ using fire magic at an instinctual level, and maybe the elementalist could help the berserker refine some of what the berserker is already doing, but the berserker probably isn't going to be calling meteor showers any time soon. Of course, the revenant could shortcut the process by finding a ritualist legend... but that could apply to finding a legend of _any_ profession, and the known ritualist historical figures don't seem to be that impactful.

And thus far, ArenaNet hasn't introduced a revenant legend that wasn't known to the player base before they were introduced as a legend. Kalla may have attracted a few "who" responses, but she was also known by enough people to elicit a few "okay, but why is her weapon a shortbow when her statue is holding a greatsword" responses.

Speaking of Kalla, there's the other issue with the prospect of a ritualist legend... mechanically speaking, Kalla is already there. Her weapon is a ranged weapon themed around making use of the Mists (the whole "firing through portals" thing), and her legend skills involve summoning spirits to attack and disrupt enemies or boost allies. That sounds pretty much like what a ritualist legend would do to me, and is probably what the general idea was - a means of getting a ritualist feel into the revenant at a time when the devs weren't sure they were ever going to go to Cantha. I don't think we really need a second Kalla - I'd prefer something new.

Ritualist, if it's used for elite specialisations at all (after all, it's now been well established that professions that are no longer playable are generally still _around_) is probably more likely to be attached to another profession. Guardian canonically has some ritualist in it according to Sea of Sorrows. Necromancer could be a good fit, although part of me wonders if that was what Scourge was supposed to be. Ranger and mesmer could even be made to work (ranger might get something similar to venoms as a modern form of weapon spirits, while perhaps mesmers could have their phantasms replaced with actual phantoms as they conjure spirits to add extra oomph to these skills).

When talking about 'sound-based support engineer', I suddenly find myself imagining an engineer with a massive boombox keeping up the morale of their allies (and maybe encouraging them to dance-fight?) through bombastic battle music.

I'm not sure this is actually a good idea, but that's the mental image that immediately popped to mind.

And then I thought of Dredge Disaggregators.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> >

> >

> > Revenant is a possibility... in the sense that pretty much _anything_ is theoretically possible with revenant. In practice, though, I don't think there's any lightning-blaster that's sufficiently impressive to become a revenant legend without going out the other side and having something that's probably _too_ powerful like Dwayna or Kralkatorrik. Maybe they could go Optimus Caliph and have a Legendary Mursaat Stance, but I think there are candidates that are higher on the priority list.

> >

>

> I think the very next expansion, bringing us to Cantha, has some opportunity for a lightning based elite spec for the revenant.

> 2 come to my mind right now: Master Togo and Kuunavang.

>

> Master Togo has been a ritualist, something that would actually be really appropriate for a revenant elite spec. Ritualists have been masters of the mists, they were able to communicate with the souls in the mists and look into them by blindfolding themselves. Which is even something revenants do, too. Revenants learning more about controlling the mists from the ancient traditions of Canthan riualists seems like in my opinion.

>

> And ritualist's damage spells have all been lightning based! Considering that they won't recycle the spirit mechanic, since that is already done with renegade, why not recycle the lightning strikes from the ritualist instead? Especially since their lightning spells also oftenly were intertwined with resource management. Maybe they could give such a spec a mechanic to charge up their energy?

Personally, I tend to put Togo into the 'not significant enough' basket.

If I recall correctly, when Stronghold was being promoted, the Stronghold heroes were said to be echoes of individuals who were prominent enough to leave an echo, but not _so_ prominent as to be a revenant legend. The common thread is that they all seem to be part of a story dominated by some other figure rather than being the one driving the story. Turai is significant... because he took down Palawa Joko (but not permanently). Nika is significant... because she helped take down Shiro. Grymm Svaard is significant... because he was Cobiah's henchman (well, the relationship was a bit more complicated than that, but the short form is that he's part of Cobiah's legend rather than being the legendary figure on his own). Tybalt is part of the Whispers Commander's story.

Togo, I think, falls into this category. His main claim to fame was helping to take down Shiro the second time around... but this makes him part of a story that was ultimately about Shiro. Sure, he did some impressive things beforehand, but I think it's fair to say that his overall impact was, at best, on the same level as Turai Ossa.

>

> The second one, Kuunavang, has been a saltspray dragon. These have been elementalists in the first game utilising fire and lightning magic.

> I have to admit, this one is less likely since revenant already has a dragon stance with Glint. Only chance would be if they would rephrase it into something like "legendary serpent stance" or something.

And she uses lightning when you fight her corrupted form... but the problem there is as you state. She's a dragon. I don't think we're going to see a second dragon in the lineup, especially at a stage when it would be two out of three elite specialisations.

There's also the aspect that she'll probably play a role in the story, and having a revenant fuelled by the legend of an entity that's still playing a direct role in the story would be... awkward.

Personally, for what it's worth, at this point my bet would be Asgeir. Use the Icebrood Saga to fill us in (more) on who he _really_ was, then explain the elite specialisation as norn revenants learning how to channel him as a result of these revelations. There probably won't be revenants in Cantha per se (even if ritualists are similar in a number of ways) so like renegade in Path of Fire, it'd make sense for the revenant legend to be based on something Tyrian rather than necessarily be Canthan.

>

> > (Especially since, y'know, from a thematic perspective, I'd _really_ like ArenaNet to find a way to get engineers to just throw one grenade at a time again. I _know_ how we got to the position of engineers throwing three grenades by default, and I know each step made sense in the context of the step before it, but it still looks silly. Maybe make it have three concentric explosions with expanding radii or something to maintain the trait interaction and generate a dropoff in effect with distance from the point of impact.)

>

> Sounds like a good idea, at least mechanically. Would have the side effect to get rid of the rng aspect of the skill by allowing you to get best results out of the skills with proper aiming instead of throwing them and praying that the grenades all hit your target.

Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind. Strictly speaking the current system still means that the expected damage is higher the closer the enemy is to the center of the reticle, but it comes through a randomly generated Venn diagram rather than being in any way predictable.

> @"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

> i'm ok with that but only if Alacrity/Quickness duration on other class will be nerfed, boon itself will be weaker or by class you will provid similar value to comepnsate lack of it

Eh. I think it would be a pretty big ask to give every class access to both party alacrity and quickness in one expansion pack without losing profession distinction in the process.

I think it's reasonable to divide support roles into four basic categories of things people want:

* Healing

* Quickness

* Alacrity

* Profession-specific unique boons

There are, of course, other things like Might and Fury, but these usually come fairly easily in high-end PvE, so to simplify matters I'll assume that these are sorted one way or another.

If you look at the big 'haves' in high-end PvE, most of them have two of these:

* Mesmers have quickness and alacrity, but you can't really call a chronomancer a healer even if they're packing Minstrel's for tanking purposes.

* Firebrands have quickness and healing.

* Renegades have alacrity and healing.

* Druids have healing and spirits (Frost Spirit being the big one)

Warriors are pretty much limited to bannerslaving, so maybe they could have an additional function out of the four. Maybe alacrity, since renegade has already linked that to inspiring leadership, or maybe just healing... but I think I'd prefer the former. While shout warrior can sometimes be interesting, I'm a bit leery about making "healing warrior" ever become an actual thing. The biggest concern I'd have is that if bannerslaves ever become capable of maintaining permanent alacrity, that'd probably kick out other sources of alacrity from 5-man content at least, so any other support function warriors get should probably be set up in such a way that it's not practical to perform that function _and_ have banners out at the same time.

As for the have-nots:

Engineers and elementalists pretty much just have healing. Scourges have shroud, fast ressing, and a bit of actual healing, so it kinda acts like a healer.

Thief... well, the Shadow Arts changes were a step in the right direction, but right now, thief basically just has Detonate Plasma on bosses that grant it. The boon daredevil isn't even much different from power daredevil, it just switches to boon duration gear and takes the traits needed to maximise the rate at which it can Detonate Plasma. Thief isn't doing that, Detonate Plasma is. But I guess it's kinda a precedent to giving quickness to a hypothetical future support thief?

I think the trend here is fairly clear. If you have two of the desired functions, you're in the club, especially if you also have the ability to contribute to a function without sacrificing too much personal DPS (this is why stacking guardians and mesmers is so popular). If you only have one... well, warrior gets to bannerslave, but everyone else is in the outgroup unless there's something specific about the boss that makes you particularly good for it.

There are some subtleties I'm glossing over here (for instance, one of the other reasons why druids are often the preferred healer is because they produce a lot of Might as they heal - while that's something that's often covered without much effort, it's nice to _know_ it's covered), but I think it demonstrates the concept. Engineers don't need to have both alacrity and quickness (even if they're on different builds) to measure up. Give it one of those, _plus healing,_ and it should be roughly on par with the current oligarchs. Give it both, and it would be _ahead_ of them. (Heck, I could see a potential interaction arising where engineer becomes the preferred option for bosses where you want lots of condition damage if you can manage to fit Pinpoint Distribution in, while something else is preferred for bosses where power damage is better. Fitting Firearms into a support engineer build would involve making some sacrifices, though. But hey, similar to alacrigade and condi quickbrand, the hypothetical support engineer here might not need to be a healer as well to pull its weight. Just because it _can_ doesn't mean it necessarily _should_ if someone else has healing covered.)

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> >

> > I see where you're coming from, but there is a degree of "yes, but not really". Scrapper hammer is... well, basically it's a melee weapon with electricity-based aesthetics. In fact, I seem to recall there being evidence that it was originally themed more as a rocket hammer and got switched to electricity partway through development.

> >

> > Gonna be honest here, one of the things that disappoints me with Guild Wars 2 professions is that there isn't really a 'pick out an enemy and blast them with lightning' approach, a la the classic GW1 air elementalist. At the moment, that isn't really there. Scrapper hammer, elementalist dagger, and elementalist dagger are all pretty much "melee weapon with electric animations". Elementalist staff chain lightning is a tickle (air on staff is more of a support attunement), which pretty much just leaves scepter air - and the long ramp-up time of Arc Lightning makes that feel like a tickle as well.

> >

> > The frustrating thing is that there are a lot of environmental weapons for various hearts and events that do have the right feel, mostly asura but some charr (I think the device used in the Jenk Cutspecter event might even be a staff, but it's been a while since I've done it). At the moment, though, the closest to really getting that 'I'm going to strike my enemies down with lightning bolts' feel as that comes from a profession comes from mesmer greatsword and scepter. Practically speaking, I don't think it's ever going to come from GW2 elementalist because its playstyle is based so heavily on attunement swapping, but I think it could fit into engineer.

> >

> > Axes sending out splashes like vapor blades... honestly, throwing out bladelike projectiles from a bladed weapon feels more like the sort of thing you'd expect from magic. Yes, holosmith does that, but holosmith is explicitly heavily technomagic. On the general principle of throwing out splashes of something, I think mace is a better fit, since most maces have a solid head that an engineer could build a reservoir into and make into an aspergillum. Which would give an iconic look for a weapon to be used with a plaguedoctor theme - make it look like one of those vapour dispensers that were used by historical plague doctors.

> >

> > That said, splashing liquid out of something is... not exactly something that screams 1200 range to me. :p Delivering various concoctions via arrows with alchemical heads, though, could well fit. There's also the aspect that a lot of people are hoping for mace as a melee option for core, and if mace comes as an elite specialisation weapon, that'd kill that dream altogether.

>

> I see that this is something you are missing in the game thematically, but I still think that it is basically ruled out for the engineer to happen.

>

> Like I said, engineer already has the electric theme with scrapper. I am aware that scrapper went through changes in development, it even seems that scrapper was initially supposed to use the heat system they recycled for holosmith later. But the electric theme is now inherent for scrapper. And Anet should definitely avoid double dipping in the same thematics for elite specs.

>

> And from the description of what you expect of such a lightning rod, it sounds like it should be a power weapon with alot of crit burst. Which sounds appropriate for the theme, hence why air magic for elementalist, for example, also is associated with crit.

>

> But this is not what engineer needs. We already pointed out that engineer is in need of more condition damage. I don't see conditions work well with the lightning theme. The only condition I could thematically tie to lightning would be burning, but that's it.

> And conditions also would not really fit what you are looking for, it seems, since conditions usually also require some build up and are not blasting the enemy away immediately.

>

> Elementalist or possibly revenant are more likely to deliver what you are looking for here, I guess.

Yeah, at this stage I don't think it's really suitable for the next one, because there are more important things than another power spec.

That said, I don't think repeating the electricity theme for engineer if we were to ever get to four is that out of the question. In part because scrapper really isn't electricity-themed so much as having a general tech theme that happens to include electricity. More significantly, lightning is an engineer theme in general - Static Shot, Static Shield, Static Discharge, lots of things with 'static' in general - for all that some other professions have lightning fields mechanically, it's really only elementalist and engineer you see throwing actual lightning around (with the caveat that a lot of mesmer effects _look_ like lightning even though they technically aren't and, conversely, there are hints that some guardian effects are actually lightning even if you can't tell by looking at it). Gonna be honest here, a static discharge build feels more like a lightning specialist than anything that an elementalist can do, even if the weapon you're packing is a rifle (and if you're running a static discharge build, then rifle is probably one of the better weapons to be using with it from a mechanical perspective).

Elementalist is certainly another possibility, and intuitively the more natural one... and they're in a similar boat to engineer that they could really do with an elite specialisation that isn't oriented towards close combat. As I said earlier, though, any elementalist weapon is going to carry the assumption that you'll be attunement-dancing to get the most out of it, and I don't think that's really conducive to what I have in mind. There is a degree to which, in some ways, engineer can act as a refuge for GW1 elementalists who prefer to specialise: grenades for AoE, bombs for PBAoE, and so on. While engineer also rewards cycling through different kits, it's a bit less hostile to just sitting on one weapon/kit if that's the right tool for the job.

Revenant is a possibility... in the sense that pretty much _anything_ is theoretically possible with revenant. In practice, though, I don't think there's any lightning-blaster that's sufficiently impressive to become a revenant legend without going out the other side and having something that's probably _too_ powerful like Dwayna or Kralkatorrik. Maybe they could go Optimus Caliph and have a Legendary Mursaat Stance, but I think there are candidates that are higher on the priority list.

In the meantime, I'll probably keep using mesmer as a stand in when that inclination strikes me.

>

> About the mace: I personally would prefer the mace as our new elite spec weapon for 2 reasons. The first is that I think the mace can work really well thematically with the chemical theme. The other reason is that mace wasn't used for any elite spec to this point. I would like to see an elite spec with a mace, especially since heavy armor classes are currently the only able to wield maces, engineer is just my personal preference, but other classes might also be candidates for a mace elite spec. And I kinda doubt at this point that Anet will introduce new core weapons to engineer....

Another thing to add to the consideration, which I was going to comment in my previous post and forgot, is that mace is an uncommonly used weapon. Only the heavy professions use mace at the moment.

>

> I would like to avoid bows, tho....

> If our next elite spec really is condition based (as it should be), then I think it would be great for the engineer to get a singlehanded weapon to dual wield (which means either axe, mace, or dagger).

>

> Engineer has a really limited weapon arsenal, actually the smallest in the entire game with just 3 core weapon sets (rifle, pistol/shield, pistol/pistol).

> Giving us a twohanded weapon again would just provide us 1 new weapon set for the engineer.

> But giving us a singlehanded weapon to dual wield in a condition based spec potentially gives us 4 new weapon combinations, illustrated with the example of an axe:

> axe/pistol, axe/shield, axe/axe, pistol/axe.

Valid point, but I'm not sure ArenaNet thinks that way. They did give dual weapons to the profession that already had the most choice, after all.

Thematically, I think mace would be perfect for a 'plaguedoctor' theme, for reasons given above. However, I don't see it being a 'long range' weapon. Engineers are rooted in technology, after all, albeit technology in a magical world - this allows for some suspension of disbelief, but I think an engineer swishing acids and poisons around like a waterbender would be a bit too far. The most realistic option would probably be throwing maces that have modified heads designed to release something nasty on impact, but thrown weapons are still limited to around 900 range. On the gripping hand, though, if the range is 900 but all the skills are just as effective at range 800 as they are at range 100, that's still a step up from the current set in terms of providing stand-off capability. The tricky part would be making it not feel too much like grenades.

(Especially since, y'know, from a thematic perspective, I'd _really_ like ArenaNet to find a way to get engineers to just throw one grenade at a time again. I _know_ how we got to the position of engineers throwing three grenades by default, and I know each step made sense in the context of the step before it, but it still looks silly. Maybe make it have three concentric explosions with expanding radii or something to maintain the trait interaction and generate a dropoff in effect with distance from the point of impact.)

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > And I actually never said that we should give _all boons to everyone_. But that everyone should be able to share one of the 3 main boons which matter for the group: alacrity, quickness, might.

> > > And you would push certain classes out entirely if you do so.

> >

> > If all you care about is the absolute optimal team setup, that's unavoidable. Look at the Snowcrows raid guides, for instance. You won't find elementalists or engineers in ANY of their optimised team setups. Not one. There's a necromancer in Soulless Horror, but that's in there purely for Epidemic.

> >

> > In practice, though, plenty of groups succeed without having the optimal team setup, since usually as long as you have the essential functions covered, your DPS is sufficient, and people know what they're doing, that's good _enough._

> >

> > You're never going to finagle a situation where the optimal 10-man group is one of each profession and one extra. It's just not going to happen. What you can do, though, is make it so that if a bunch of players get together with a random set of professions, there's a good chance that they'll be able to find some way to make it work.

>

> This is exactly why I think the "flavor" arguments for each spec/class fall flat. Some specs/classes are always "optimal." Guardian has always been in the optimal setups for high-end PvE. Not once has it been considered "bottom tier." Since HoT launched, Mesmer has always been in the optimal setups as well. Conversely, engineer, elementalist, and necromancer consistently fall into the "least optimal" rotations because we simply don't offer the kind of versatility or utility that these other professions do. Need proof? [Go here,](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/) and check each of the raid bosses' "optimal composition." Two classes are not represented at all: Engineer and elementalist. Two classes are overrepresented: Guardian and Mesmer.

>

> We're not asking to become _THE_ primary source of these boons, but to have a chance to be let in when people aren't completely min-maxing. The trouble is that frequently groups get held up in LFG waiting for a specific build/class which is almost always chrono, healbrand/quickbrand, or alacren. This is a problem because it stymies the diversity @"Lan Deathrider.5910" is arguing for. If I could show up in a group looking for a healbrand or alacren and say "I'm not this, but I can give you some quickness and/or alacrity," impatient groups would be willing to give me a shot.

Yeah, pretty much this. At the moment, we've got five professions that are in high demand, three that aren't, and thieves that can gimmick specific encounters and are about as welcome as the other three everywhere else. A large part of that is because there are two essential functions that each only have two professions that can fill them... and that includes one that fills _both,_ so there are three professions in total that can operate in that space.

Consider the high-end PvE opportunities that someone who's mastered guardian, renegade, and mesmer has compared to someone who's mastered engineer, elementalist, and necromancer. The second person has, if anything, gone to more effort than the first (elementalist and engineer both have pretty high skill ceilings) but they're just not going to have the flexibility the first person has.

From what I can see, there are three possible ways to resolve this situation of haves and have-nots:

1) Kill alacrity and quickness altogether. It's not a satisfying option, certainly not one I'd recommend, but hey, it'd bring the oligopoly trinity (yep, I'm gonna call it that now) down to everyone else's level.

2) Create new functions, that are at least as desired as bannerslave and spirit ranger. I _think_ this might be what @"Lan Deathrider.5910" is trying to propose, but I think this is an approach that has its own problems. ArenaNet has taken steps in this direction in the past (giving most professions a unique ally stat buff trait, for instance), but this doesn't seem to have had the desired effect, since some of these buffs are more valued than others, and more recently they seem to have been backing away from professions having unique buffs and having them go back to using the same boons where practical (Grace of the Land, for instance). Best case scenario is that if you did manage to pull it off, you'd have the optimal 10-man squad being one of each profession with one extra... but in this situation you'd likely have each profession being stuck in a prescribed role that they're expected to fill, and in five-man content like high-end fractals people would just decide which functions are most important to fit into five players and go with that.

3) Share the current oligopolistic functions across more professions.

(Note that a combination of 2 and 3 is certainly possible.)

In the third case... yes, there is probably still going to be some optimal means of getting the quickness or alacrity you need, whether it's firebrigade, combining them into chrono, or something new. But, as pointed out above... having more professions who can fulfill those roles means that professions have more opportunities to contribute. A less elitist PUG might not care about specifically where their alacrity and quickness comes from, as long as it's there. A newly formed would-be static might find that they don't have anyone who's willing or able (at least in the short term) to bring a boon chrono or alacrigade, but they might be able to say "hey, Bob's been playing elementalist since release and there's that new alacrimentalist build, maybe he could try that out?"

> @"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

>

I'm not sure that's actually how the system works with hard CCs - soft CC conditions appear greyed out as you say, but I think hard CCs just don't register unless the defiance bar is blue.

> @"draxynnic.3719"

> If it was true, evry time you use 5 hammer on immunite to cc target you wuld do 0dmg from that skill

> Same with prime light beam ult on Holo

>

> Maybe daze,stun is not displayed on cc immune target, but on 100% is registered

I think you've missed my meaning.

The precedent with other "on stun" or "on CC" traits, from what I've seen, is that if the target is immune to the CC, the trait doesn't proc either. I'm not 100% sure, because I haven't had reason to pay that close attention to it, but I think that's how it works.

>

>

> I'm still inclined to think it would be better for engineer to have a new support-oriented elite specialisation, though. I don't feel like there's really a strong link between CCs (especially failed CCs...) and granting party quickness.

>

>

> cc maybe not sound best, but from desing perspective, combo the best with weapon of that elit spec, other traits, and Engineer/Scrapper have alot acess to cc, even some turrets overcharge and hit with cc as first shot

>

> **And thats only 2 small edits to make that all work and combo togheter**

>

> Until we not get idea for better desing, or change from "small edit" to completly rework how to put Quckness, i think cc mechanic syngergy the best for now

That's the thing, though - we know ArenaNet is working on an expansion (and technically speaking I think they hadn't ruled out elite specs with Icebrood Saga, but I suspect they've done so now that they've decided to do an expansion). That probably means new elite specs, and the potential to do an engineer support-oriented elite spec from the ground up rather than trying to attach one to scrapper. I understand that this doesn't really help fix things _now,_ but I think it would be better in the long run.

(And I don't think there's much call to give engineer both party quickness AND party alacrity in the foreseeable future, even if they're on separate elite specialisations.)