draxynnic.3719

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> Add stab and alar and quickness with perma uptime and you can replace chrono and alarbrigade with scrapper

Getting all three is a big ask. Personally, I'm inclined to think that chrono should be the only thing that can bring both quickness and alacrity - that can be its niche, being able to bring both in one package. Firebrand and renegade can bring quickness and alacrity respectively, but each brings something else to the table (what, precisely, that something else is depends on the build).

Any other build that provided quickness or alacrity I'd visualise as working the same way. A hypothetical alternative quickness support, for instance, should have the other side of its capabilities include things that neither the chrono nor the firebrand brings to the table.

Heck, for the high-end PvE content, the nerf to Feel my Wrath seems to have already had a significant impact. There's now only three raid bosses that Snowcrows recommends stacking guardians on - Sabetha, Deimos, and Conjured Amalgamate. The other raid bosses they used to dominate on, they've been partially or entirely replaced by holos, soulbeasts, and in Samarog's case, mass power daredevils.

Meanwhile, as previously noted, guardian has gone back to being "decent but not meta" in Conquest. Not seeing too many in 2v2 either.

At this point, the only mode where Guardian is _really_ dominant is WvW zergs, and that's never going to be a finely-tuned balance environment. Because of how important Stability is in that environment, the only thing that will knock guardian off its throne is some other profession being better at mass Stability, and then you'd just trade guardian for the new Stability bot.

So... mission accomplished, pretty much?

On a further topic of parallels...

Guardian might look like a paladin at first glance, but it's actually a mix of paladin, cleric, and arcane knight. 'Paladin' usually carries a certain assumption that while you've got a lot of defensive and healing magic, you're reliant on beating the enemy with a physical weapon (albeit possibly a magically enhanced one) unless the enemy is undead or some other specific type that the paladin has special powers against. Guardians certainly aren't shy about smacking people around and they're still more inclined towards close combat than ranged combat, but when they want to fight someone at a distance it's generally spells they reach for rather than some form of conventional ranged weapon, and even in close combat they rely about as much on close-range offensive magic as they do on actually making contact with a physical weapon.

Chronotanks aren't used because chronomancer has the highest survivability - bunker chrono hasn't been a thing in competitive modes for years for a _reason._ The actual toughest professions genuinely are the professions you'd expect them to be. The reason chronotanks are meta is that they survive well _enough_ while sacrificing less than other professions would to get their tanky stats.

I can see how that thinking might be confusing to a new player, but honestly, tanking in raids is probably not a role I'd want to give to someone who isn't already experienced enough to understand why it's done that way. Largely because the role of 'tank' has a different function to what it does in most games. Your primary job isn't to take damage so that the squishies aren't the ones being attacked (most raids that use tanks have plenty of mechanics that mean that there's still plenty of danger to the rest of the squad), the job of the tank is usually to lead the boss out of punishing AoE fields the the rest of the squad can keep fighting them without dying to said AoE fields.

On this basis, I'm not convinced it would be a _bad_ thing if a minionmancer or turreteer tank ever became a thing in PvE raids. It'd work on a similar principle - it doesn't have the same potential DPS in full DPS gear as the true DPS professions, but it doesn't lose as much by choosing to use tankier gear. Obviously, we wouldn't want this to start becoming a big thing in competitive modes again, but splits exist for a reason.

Regardless of calling such builds "passive" - I wouldn't say they're any more passive than builds that make heavy use of signets, or even non-signet buffs that have long durations and cooldowns (as opposed to things like firebrand mantras where you're usually activating one every few seconds). A minionmancer build still has a fair amount of active gameplay through weapon skills, life force usage and, if you want optimal benefit from your minions, use of the minion actives. Engineers _could_ have a similar relationship with turrets if the turret toolbelt skills were buffed to make them more interesting - Rifle Turret, for instance, has been taken at least as much for Surprise Shot as for the actual turret for a while, and I don't see an in-principle reason why other turret toolbelt skills couldn't have similar relationships. It's just that at the moment, most of them have weak effects on long cooldowns.

> @"Lynx.9058" said:

> Elementalist: typical mage/spellcaster.

> Mesmer: honestly doesn't seem to relate much to other game class archetypes. I'd guess a priest- like caster or cleric.

>

> Obviously most of those end up being completely wrong, but that's what I assumed when first creating a character.

The way I'd explain it to someone is that the typical arcane spellcaster is split into two. Elementalist specialises in, well, elemental magic, while mesmer covers pretty much everything _else_ that falls under the domain of a typical arcane spellcaster.

Or, to consider the five-colour system used by Magic: the Gathering, mesmers are basically the blue magic specialists, while necromancers are black, elementalists are red, and guardians are white. (Strictly speaking, Guild Wars had a four-point magic system, which differs from the five-colour system in that Nature is rolled into one of the four points, and four-point systems keep all forms of elemental magic in the elemental point while five-colour systems split elemental magic across multiple colours. It's not the only setting that uses such a system - Spellforce uses something similar, for instance - but more people are familiar with five-colour systems.)

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Kinda on the back foot in discussion at the moment it seems but I'd like to talk about this as speculation and seeing what others desire is a fun topic. I'd like to discuss what people would like to see. If its based on What theme you want to see or what you want mechanically, discuss both. I'm going to list some general ideas of what I'd like to see for each of the classes.

> >

> > ## Warrior

> > For warrior what I'd like to see is something I personally wouldn't like to play but I know people would enjoy. I'd like to see a tank elite spec. Something to really push them as one of the classes to pull and hold aggro. I preface this with that I feel GW2's aggro system should be changed from a focus on toughness to a more threat generation system in which all skills either generate threat or decrease threat so that a tank has to dedicate themselves to building threat which I feel warrior would be right at home with. Which could be fun to have warrior have a adrenaline skill that generates a lot of threat and causes taunt. However, if the system was changed, I could see Spellbreaker filling a tank role very well and I'd be pretty happy to have that on my team.

> >

> > Another option I'd like to see is perhaps a war mage type spec which converts adrenaline into spell like abilities the warrior can use to strike foes with bursts of damage. Maybe that's a bit out there, but i almost never play warrior so I'll just say I'd much prefer to hear what warrior mains or off mains want as opposed to me who honestly probably wouldn't touch the class.

> >

> > ## Guardian

> > Guardian its going to be much the same as warrior. I'd like to see them also get a tank elite spec. I'd prefer them to be a bit worse at holding aggro but offer a little bit of support, no more than normal guardian but letting them mix a little without the heavy support tanking we've had in the past. So something more akin to a paladin or cleric you'd see in DnD. Giving them some form of cover abilities to aid allies along with their normal cover abilities.

> >

> > ## Revenant

> > Revenant I'd honestly like to see a high Melee power DPS spec. Something that serves Melee combat really well, so giving them something like a greatsword and channel, say, a Norn or tengu legend could be quite good. It could be interesting if they got some form of ability to swap your weapon skills based on your attuned legend as well as your utility skills by using your F2 ability, but that might be a bit complex. But that could be unique as you gain a whole host of abilities. I really like Revenant and it would be nice to see their Melee prowess served much better by its elite spec than it has been in the past.

> >

> > ## Ranger

> > A lot of people will probably disagree with me on this, but I would really like to see a Pack leader elite spec where you have a small pack of Pets of the same species to fight your foes for you. A heavy ranged focus elite spec that can't swap pets, but rather gains command skills or something like that that allows you to act as a sort of Control/support spec. It would be an interesting change of pace for them that could allow for some unique shenanigans. There is the issue with pet swapping, so i'm not too sure. I'd go for scepter+focus combo for this spec.

> >

> > I like Ranger, I don't get to play them much since I like Druid and our guild is filled with druid so I often have to play DPS which I don't have proper gear for and its doesn't have my play style. But I'm sure some ranger players have some way better ideas than me.

> >

> > ## Thief

> > Thief has a lot of DPS as it is. So yet another DPS spec might be a bit more of the same. This isn't a problem per say, a DPS condi spec that focuses on poison could be really cool and I'd be on board with that as I'm sure some thieves would be. One sort of spec I would like to see for thief is a sort of Shadow mage support spec that specializes in unique shadow magic that allows allies to flank enemies and offers them the ability to teleport enemies. There isn't a reason that a condi spec and a shadow mage spec couldn't be the same spec, but it was an idea I would like to see. For weapons I would like to once again see scepter/focus. Thief has had the unfortunate habit with their elite specs giving them weapons which don't give them dual skills. Thief getting a tone more dual skills would be really nice in my opinion.

> >

> > I'll address the spec a lot of players want, which is the assassin. And you know what? Fair! Having an off hand sword with main hand sword sounds cool enough. The big issue I see with it is that it doesn't really add much to thief or change anything as Thief is almost completely superior to GW1 Assassin. Well, except for the Shadow form tank assassin, but I don't think that's really what people would desire. Unless you would? IDK, let me know.

> >

> > ## Engineer

> > Engineer, my second love, I have a lot I'd like to see with Engineer. But I do feel that Engineer absolutely needs to have a ranged spec. Both Scrapper and holosmith are both melee specs with holoforge being a melee weapon swap ability. It would be nice to see a Elite spec that Focuses on Minions... Yeah I know people don't like AI stuff, but boy do I love the idea of having my Golemmancer with a staff that shoots lasers. Send in minions which could have more versatility than necro minions due to the Toolbelt skills. Alternatively I wouldn't be opposed to having an elite spec that completely changes how the toolbelt works. But I digress.

> >

> > A chemist spec could be interesting as well but I'd prefer elixirs be reworked into something more interesting and useful before this. But Chemical arrows could be fun with a longbow or short bow.

> >

> > ## Elementalist

> > With elementalist we have the Overcharge sorta support spec, the fusing elements spec, and the one I'd like to see is the specialist type spec. I'd like to see an elite spec which removes Elementalist from being able to swap attunments but rather the F1-4 skills become Elemental spell type abilities which can enhance whatever element you're currently locked into. You'd still get the attunment swap and for traits if you're, say, locked into fire skills and you use the Air skill for the air traits it'll be as though you are in air but the reduced cooldown on the skills wont occur. But I wouldn't take swapping away without giving something else in return. I'd also like to see this sort of spec gain weapon swap.

> >

> > I'm a simple girl at times. Sometimes I just want to throw a fireball. I've also heard people talk about the desire of having a 5th element. Which I would be down for for sure.

> >

> > ## Necromancer

> > For the necromancer, this is probably the one I have the most to say about since she is my main. I wont say too much though since there's just WAY WAY too much I actually want and none of it I want on a single spec. So to put it in perspective, I'd like a proper healer spec, so like a shaman with Spirits. I'd love to gain a Sort of spectral shroud which gives me access to primarily supportive abilities that allows me to properly heal people as opposed to the barrier priest the scourge is. It wouldn't replace the scourge but offer a different role. i've made some older posts about that but we'll move on. Another spec I'd love to see is the Minion Master elite spec where they replace their shroud with conjuring a decent number of minions through skill 1 and use the other 4 skills as a means to command them into battle. Having a shield with that spec would be nice, but I'm warming up to the idea of a hammer. Lastly there is the Highly self damaging Blood thirsty Vampire spec that I'd like to see that sacrifices large chunks of their own health to modify their DPS giving necromancer a proper DPS spec that is both high risk and high reward.

> >

> > ## Mesmer

> > Mesmer is one of those classes I want to love, but I struggle to enjoy it as much as I did in GW1. This issue I have is more because of its similarities to Assassin and Thief because I feel its a bit more Melee and tricksy than controlling and tricksy. So My personal preference for a Mesmer elite spec would be to push an Elite spec that is far more in line with the Guild Wars 1 builds the mesmer was famous for. I've made Posts about a Siren elite spec which is a DPS and control spec which could change the shatters into Ground Target AoE short lasting Hex like effects. Or even converting the Phantasms into these AoE hex like abilities. I like the idea of having the ability to create these Hex like abilities as well as just having a Field control type spec that really embodies the idea of Mass Hysteria. Covering a point for a short duration with an AoE hex like ability could be really fun. Punishing foes for daring to look funny at you.

> >

> >

> > These are sorta the things I'd like to see. What about you? What would you like to see?

>

> People already complain about ranger pets, I mean even pets that are the same as mobs you fight in Kryta and they apparently completely destroy them. Even if you reduced the pets down to being similar to Mesmer clones, I think it would be a problem not so much for rangers but for everyone else who are elite PvPers that get destroyed by open world mobs designed to be fought by new characters. I just don't want it to reach a state of the pets feeling like a handful of miniatures that follow you and do nothing much, as it is it's a struggle to make the pet relevant with the exception of a CC or a skill utilized by merging with it.

With that condescension, I wasn't surprised when I scrolled up and saw a ranger symbol avatar...

They're really not the same. Mobs you fight in Kryta go down in a few hits. Ranger pets have comparable health tallies to players which can be reset every fifteen seconds as long as the ranger swaps it out before it actually reaches zero, and soulbeasts don't even have that limitation. Which makes them very hard to counterplay, since it's very rarely worth the effort to try to kill a pet. They're not actually that strong in my experience, it's just that they're something that's hard to actually do anything meaningful about. Most of the time pets actually die, it's because they went onto point and got hit by most of the enemy team's combined area effects and cleave, which isn't really counterplay so much as the same problem a lot of summons have of surviving teamfights, namely dying to collateral damage.

So it's more like fighting a mob that's at least a veteran, on a short respawn timer, while another player is working with the veteran to try to kill you. Said other player does have weaker stats to balance out the add (apart from soulbeasts, which can desummon the veteran to strengthen themeselves, and then pop the veteran back out at full health). The plus side is that if you kill the other player, the veteran despawns... so there's little point in fighting the veteran.

Something which is built around having multiple pets could potentially be balanced by having the deaths of any given one be more meaningful. For instance, each one might go onto its own respawn/recovery timer when it's reduced to zero health, so 'killing' one means that the 'packmaster' ranger has a reduced menagerie for a significant period. They'd also likely have reduced stats individually, so killing one in the first place might be easier.

> @"Affinity.7253" said:

> In truth, all Anet needs to do is make sure Ele staff is always viable and interesting.

Sounds like this is the main problem, really. And the current situation is a little unusual - staff has pretty much ALWAYS been a good pick in PvE apart from the last year, and sat at optimum DPS in raids for a long time... which, IIRC, is why it got nerfed. "Interesting" is, of course, subjective - staff ele isn't really a playstyle that excites me all that much personally - but it's been viable for most of the game's run, and viability is a matter of finding the right balance in buffing it back up. It probably is fair, though, for melee DPS options to out-DPS a 1200 range AOE-oriented weapon, so expecting staff to come back in raids might be expecting the unlikely. It does seem that it's still used in open world and WvW, which have the conditions where you'd expect it to shine without being just plain better than the melee and (relatively) single-target options.

I don't think the 'classic mage' archetype really benefits from blocking new weapons, regardless of whether the weapon fits the archetype or not. Most elite specialisations aren't defined by their weapons and work just fine with core weapons, and in many cases the elite specialisation weapon is only used for specialised builds. The big issue is just that Weaver and Tempest are both largely optimised for being in the thick of the action (less so for Weaver), but, hypothetically speaking, an elementalist elite spec with a ranged two-handed or mainhand weapon is probably still going to bring utilities and traits that are useful for staff and scepter.

(Incidentally, I'd also note that it's theoretically possible that ArenaNet could introduce mace or hammer but have them behave as essentially an alternative form of scepter and staff respectively. Possibly not hammer, since I'm not sure all of the hammer handles are long enough, but a mace could certainly work as a scepter with a bit more weight to it.)

I think it's still being used in open world and WvW, but in instanced content you're pretty much always looking at having grenades at least in the builds that are considered optimal at the moment. I don't know how much you'd be losing if you traded the grenade kit for something else, though.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > What's Jump Shot, chopped liver?

>

> Oh yes, use Jump Shot so you can get close enough to use Jump Shot to its highest efficiency.

>

> I see no issue in that plan.

>

> /s

Close to 90% of the damage from Jump Shot comes in the landing, so no, I don't think this is a critical issue. Personally, I'd consider using it purely as a melee skill means that you're completely wasting its potential as a mobility skill.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You've also got legs, and engineers have a fair amount of Swiftness

>

> In this day and age, so does everyone.

Not really, although a lot of builds do. Point being that while gap-closers and gap-openers help, they're not required to have mobility, including getting in and out of melee range. Obviously, it's not perfect, but nothing ever is. What you've got, though, is an ability to burst in close, but you don't need to remain at close range to maintain pressure between bursts.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Particularly since you're also going to have either immobilise or... well, _everything_ shield has to potentially use to open or close gaps.

>

> Oh sorry, I forgot. Just SWITCH WEAPON SETS to x/Shield on Engineer so you can gap close to use your Rifle that deals all of its damage up close as a skirmishing weapon...

And here I thought it was clear from the context that my point was that _every_ weapon set had something that helped to either provide mobility, limit the enemy's mobility, or push them around. Rifle has 3/5 skills doing this - Net Shot to immobilise, Overcharged Shot for opening gaps, and Jump Shot for general mobility.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You might prefer to stay in close, but that doesn't mean it's a melee weapon, nor does it mean they're balanced as such (they obviously SHOULDN'T be, since even if you're not using it, the majority of their skills, including their autoattack, have fairly long range).

>

> By this logic Thiefs D/P set up is a ranged set up because "A majority of their skills have fairly long range"

False equivalence and you know it. Thief D/P doesn't have a ranged autoattack, which I specifically included in my logic.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> This also bypasses the nature of the fact that a weapon with 1500 range, can still be used in melee range. Yet a melee weapon, cannot be used at longer ranges. Which imparts a higher need for classes to have specifically a ranged weapon as opposed to needing a "Melee" one.

Generally speaking, though, there's a price for that range. Long-range weapons usually sacrifice damage, defences, or other mobility for the sake of that range. For all your claims that rifle is apparently a melee weapon, if you actually want to melee and have a kit that provides for range, you're much better off pulling a dedicated melee weapon.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > When it comes to Acid Bomb... really? That's the hill you're going to die on? PvE enemies usually don't dodge, and some literally _can't._

>

> Yes, and 1 skill dealing decent damage out of a total of 5 skills, does not make a support weapon a DPS weapon. If it was, then we could say Necro's staff is a DPS weapon because skill 4 has a decent coefficient on it.

>

> Meanwhile, it's the same number of good skills as P/P on Engineer and doesn't really stop it from being a support weapon (Unless all those "Plebs" at Snow Crows are seriously messing up their DPS by using Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit instead of the obviously good DPS kit, Elixir Gun)

>

> We'll also skip over the fact than in search of a **Ranged** weapon or kit we're now talking about a melee range skill on Elixir Gun...

Funnily enough, I've seen people get taken down with Glob Shot as part of a spike, which is a part of my analysis you seem to have left out of the quote.

Obviously, it's not going to have as much DPS as, say, grenades, because it DOES have a support function as well. But it's decent.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Orb of Wrath, which you cite for guardian, has a lower 0.6 coefficient in PvE and almost the same in competitive (0.444), a slower projectile speed, shorter range, and doesn't pierce. Rifle AA is a pretty serviceable autoattack.

>

> Guardian scepter has a ranged low cooldown skill that deals a majority of Scepter's damage in Symbol of Punishment. With a coefficient of 0.2 + 0.5 PvE 0.33 + 0.45 PvP/WvW and up to 8 strikes over its duration (Total of 4.2 PvE and 3.93 PvP/WvW) though less useful in PvP/WvW due to enemies ability to move out of it (Though you do have Chains of Light to help keep them inside it). However, this can also be paired with Focus which also brings Ray of Judgment for 2.97 PvE and 1.89 PvP coefficient. Not to mention all of the Virtue of Justice procs that these multi-hit skills will cause for additional damage.

Except that apparently Acid Bomb doesn't count because, ding, things can move out of it! (Despite Elixir Gun having a cripple, and engineer having plenty of access to immobilise)

Yeah, scepter/focus is overall a better standoff weapon set than rifle - because apart from the low projectile speed, it is intended more as a standoff set. You'll note that apart from a fairly short-duration immobilise, scepter/focus has _no_ skills that assist in kiting or even in gapclosing. Mostly because guardian is intended to respond to being engaged in melee by *drumroll* _switching to a melee weapon._

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Standing around flinging auto attacks, is not a particularly good way of dealing damage. Outside of Necro shroud because its skills are DPS losses (Besides Tainted Shackles and Soul Spiral)

For spiking? No. But you can maintain pressure with them, and engineer rifle can maintain this pressure from as far as 1200 range. This means that, for instance, you don't need to remain on point (which is likely where a lot of the AoE is landing) to keep pressuring an enemy between spikes, or that you can continue dealing damage to an enemy that is out of melee reach.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > It's probably not coincidence that both of the elite specs have a melee weapon.

>

> Given it's ANet, it probably is. I mean, Holosmith getting a sword seems to be inspired mostly because it's a good way to implement a "Lightsaber" skin in the game.

>

> Either that, or they're just playing around the fact that Firearms traits currently want power based weapons to be used in melee range anyway.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but ArenaNet _does_ pay attention to what people are asking for when it comes to new content. As it happened, one of the most common requests before HoT was a melee weapon for engineer, because that was the gap.

And as was observed in my previous post, which you appear to have avoided acknowledging, MH pistol appears to have been rejigged into the long-range-oriented weapon you're asking for with the changed behaviour of Poison Dart Volley. So the weapon you're asking for is there. On core. It just needs more buffs to become properly viable in the role.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

> The thing is is that I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever. Jormag's minions have always appeared—to me—as having total free will. I've always been confused, as an autistic person, by how neurotypicals tend to parse sincere appreciation and admiration as some kind of manipulation. And yet actual manipulations go under the radar.

>

> I mean, we see some Svanir in Forged in Steel that are no different than any other Svanir. I don't think that Jormag is exercising absolute mind control over them to relax in hotsprings. We've also seen Jormag create constructs for the Svanir to hunt, too. Which is just basically making toys for her mortal kids to play with. I can't think of any good reason for Jormag to exercise compulsion over the Svanir to destroy their own ice constructs either.

>

> What I've seen is that those branded by Jormag just tend to really _like_ their dragon and they're very appreciative of them. At this point, I'm of the opinion that Jormag's real power lies with absolute sincerity. This is something that Tom Abernathy has hiinted at in his frustration over how people believe Jormag's power is manipulation or mind control when it isn't, it's _persuasion_. Tom's also said that Jormag can't lie. I think that the way Jormag's power works is similar to an extremely logical, compelling argument founded in reason that you have to listen to. Then you can make your own decisions based on that.

>

> Jormag mentioned a while ago that their goal was to freeze the world to end the cycles. Their goal has been to end the cycles, period. Now they just see a different means to do so that doesn't involve having to freeze the world. Another thing that Tom has told us that's extremely relevant is that Jormag truly loves and cares about Tyria. I don't think that this dragon is going to be what many seem to expect them to be.

What you've described there, though, is essentially how dragon corruption normally _works._ It basically rewrites the victim's brain so that the victim loves the dragon utterly and places the dragon's interests and commands above all else, including their own life and their past loyalties. However, they can still act normally, including in some cases continuing to pursue their own agenda, _as long as it doesn't conflict with the dragon's desires and commands_ (noting that "kill or corrupt anything that isn't already mine" is a common standing order for most minions). If you've come across the Confessors in Sword of Truth (which is not, incidentally, a recommendation of the series, although Wizard's First Rule can be worth reading on its own), it's a similar principle to that.

It's also common, but not necessary, for most minions to have reduced intelligence, since in the Guild Wars universe, intelligence is powered by magic, and if the Elder Dragon doesn't need a minion to remain intelligent, it generally likes to suck out all of the magic from the minion leaving just enough for it to remain a near-mindless automaton. Even these, though, tend to continue to mindlessly do the same things they did before becoming a minion if this doesn't conflict with the dragon's interests (for example: Risen farmers in Orr continuing to mindlessly till the soil, even though the fields their working are mostly barren and lifeless).

So there's nothing in Svanir relaxing in hot springs that proves that Jormag doesn't use regular forms of minion control. Doubly so, in fact, since there _is_ supposed to be a distinction between Sons of Svanir (which are influenced by Jormag to various degrees, but which do still have their free will rather than being full minions) and icebrood, even if this line gets blurred somewhat (particularly in season 3, episode 3). In the case of Svanir becoming icebrood, it's questionable whether the loyalty override actually happens - if someone is genuinely loyal to the dragon _before_ they become a full minion, it's hard to tell if they've had their loyalties overridden to make them loyal to the dragon afterwards, after all. There are, however, cases where a captive has been shown resisting right up to the point at which they're transformed and then go berserk on anything nearby that isn't loyal to Jormag, and that seems to be a case of conventional minion transformation.

It is worth noting, though, that this usually happens through the actions of Svanir shamans, and Jormag doesn't necessarily approve of everything that the Sons of Svanir do, so "conventional" minion transformation might only happen when performed by an intermediary against Jormag's usual policy, rather than being done by Jormag themself. So Jormag's statement that Jormag never gives something that isn't asked for may well be true, and Jormag doesn't use the "remove free will by overriding loyalties" form of minion creation... but Jormag's intermediaries _do._

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Rifle and pistol/pistol are what I generally refer to as 'skirmishing' sets. They have cooldown skills that reward being in close, but they also have skills oriented towards opening a gap again, and their autoattack is intended for standoff use. The intended playstyle is one that involves closing in for a burst _and then backing off to a standoff position again_, rather than full melee.

>

> Except that their actual playstyle is one where it's optimal to stay in melee, because they don't have gap closers to get back into range to use their melee skills optimally.

What's Jump Shot, chopped liver? You've also got legs, and engineers have a fair amount of Swiftness, so running in and out is definitely a thing you can do even if it isn't as simple as 'use gap closer' and 'use gap opener'. Particularly since you're also going to have either immobilise or... well, _everything_ shield has to potentially use to open or close gaps.

Believe me, you can do it. In competitive modes, the enemy will be trying to keep you at their preferred range, but so what else is new? You can still pressure them at long range if you can't close or if the enemy is making it too hot to get in that close, and you can burst when you do have the opportunity to get in close. Skirmishing weapon. You might prefer to stay in close, but that doesn't mean it's a melee weapon, nor does it mean they're balanced as such (they obviously SHOULDN'T be, since even if you're not using it, the majority of their skills, including their autoattack, have fairly long range).

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Elixir gun, for all that you claim it's support it's not, actually look at the coefficients

>

> I have and they're terrible and outperformed by Pistol (Which still sucks compared to actual damage weapons/kits like Grenade Kit).

>

> Fragmentation Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 6 second bleed

> Tranquilizer Round - 0.4 coefficient and 4 second bleed

>

> The only advantage Tranq has is that Frag Shot is 0.266 coefficient in PvP/WvW

>

> Poison Dart Volley - 2.0 coefficient and 5x 9 poison stacks

> Glob Shot - 0.75 coefficient (Can bounce up to 3 times)

>

> Again, the only advantage here is PDV has a 1.0 coefficient in PvP/WvW

>

> Static Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 3x confusion for 5 seconds

> Fumigate - 0.4 coefficient and 5x poison for 2 seconds

>

> Blowtorch - 0.33-1.0 coefficient and 4x burning for 3-6 seconds

> Acid Bomb - 0.85 coefficient

>

> The advantage of Acid Bomb is dealing continuous damage if targets stay within its radius, but that's not very likely in PvP/WvW (Especially since Blowtorch in PvP/WvW gets changed to 2x Burning for 6-12 seconds to reduce its burst)

Yeah, I'll admit I'm used to Fragmentation Shot being worse than it currently is - it's snuck up a bit through lots of small buffs. Even then, though, Tranquiliser Dart also maintains weakness. Doesn't contribute to damage, I know (at least not directly), but it's pretty close to the same damage output with a bonus effect. To be fair, Fragmentation Shot also still has a bit of an AoE to it.

Regarding the others... it's probably more fair to compare Glob Shot to Static Shot and Poison Dart Volley to Fumigate, since those skills have similar purposes.

Glob Shot can actually do a surprising amount of damage, because it works similar to Mirror Blade: it can bounce from the enemy to the engineer and back (and then back to the engineer, but that doesn't trigger extra damage). Static Shot can theoretically do more damage per shot in an ideal situation, but can also just do a single packet, and has a longer recharge. Both inflict a debilitating condition - in practice, though, I find cripple to generally be more useful than blind.

Poison Dart Volley... that has changed a bit since I last used it. It's now essentially a Repeater with poison, instead of spraying the darts in a cone. So it'll do more damage, but it's single-target. While Fumigate does less damage, but applies it to up to 5 enemies in a 600 range cone. So those two aren't as directly comparable as I thought, but you know what this means? It means we're both wrong! Core engineer DOES have a non-kit weapon optimised for firing away at long range! Your offhand is going to be either optimised for close range or oriented towards defence rather than DPS, which is less than ideal, but it's not uncommon for a ranged weaponset to have a couple of skills that are oriented more to utility or to use at closer ranges (example: mesmer greatsword 2 and 5).

When it comes to Acid Bomb... really? That's the hill you're going to die on? PvE enemies usually don't dodge, and some literally _can't._ In Conquest, it's a suitable means of pressuring a point without being on point yourself... particularly since it doesn't have a big visible tell like some other skills, so the enemy might not realise why the point is hurting so much.

>

> For "Hybrid" builds (AKA Condi builds) you're better off just swapping between Flamethrower and Grenade Kit than trying to use Elixir Gun or Pistol MH for damage and in PvP/WvW you might even want to skip out on even using Pistol OH and use either Shield for extra defence or Rifle for more damage (Since Blunderbuss deals up to 1.31 coefficient + 3x Bleed for 9 seconds and Leap Shot does 0.1 + 1.74 coefficient and 3x Vulnerability for 6s on each hit)

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Engineer, at the moment, does reasonably well at long range. Pistol/shield works fairly well at standoff poking... well, about as well as MH pistol works at anything these days. Rifle does decent damage just off Hip Shot and Overcharged Shot

>

> Simply auto attacking at range is not particularly good damage though, especially with Pistol and Rifle.

>

> Pistol having 0.4 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvE and 0.266 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvP/WvW which is terrible especially in a meta that favours burst damage.

We kinda just went through MH pistol. With the changes to Poison Dart Volley, every skill on MH pistol is just as effective at 900 range as it is at melee range. So this sounds like a 'pistol needs to be better' issue rather than an 'engineer doesn't have a weapon that does this' issue.

>

> Rifle AA has a 0.65 coefficient in PvE and 0.44 coefficient in PvP/WvW while Overcharged Shot has a 1.0 coefficient in PvE and 0.01 coefficient in PvP/WvW.

Orb of Wrath, which you cite for guardian, has a lower 0.6 coefficient in PvE and almost the same in competitive (0.444), a slower projectile speed, shorter range, and doesn't pierce. Rifle AA is a pretty serviceable autoattack.

The competitive damage of Overcharged Shot has been gutted, but after such a big balance shakeup, I wouldn't necessarily consider the current balance state of rifle in competitive to be something that's going to remain where it is indefinitely. Sure, it's not going to pull off as much long-range damage as, say, ranger longbow. But that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed as a skirmishing weapon with a competitive long-range autoattack. And it achieves that.

>

> Both are superceded by Grenade Kit AA which is 0.33 coefficient per grenade (Meaning up to 0.99 coefficient on its auto attack), to say nothing of its low cooldown Shrapnel Grenades (0.63 PvE and 0.567 PvP coefficients and 10s bleeding PER GRENADE) which dwarfs anything capable by Engie weapons.

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > It's true that they don't have a sniper-type weapon for rapidly downing a single enemy at long range, but that's not a capability every profession is expected to have - like guardian and thief

>

> Every class has at least 1 weapon that can deal good ranged damage, aside from Engineer.

>

> Guardian has Scepter, which is one of its highest DPS weapons and is used in meta PvE builds.

> Thief has Pistol/Pistol which can push out some decent damage. Heck, even Shortbow isn't that bad (Albeit suffers from projectile speeds)

>

> Sure, they only have 900 range but Engie doesn't have **ANY** weapon that deals reasonable damage at range given the lackluster performance of MH Pistol and Grenade Kit really only works at range in PvE vs static targets.

>

You complain about "Grenade Kit only works at range in PvE versus static targets", but hold up guardian scepter as being a good long-range attack. Orb of Wrath isn't at the point where it's barely above running speed without Swiftness any more, but there's still a noticeable bunching if you use Orb of Wrath while running forwards. I'm not privy to the exact velocities, but I'd guesstimate about the same speed as mortars? 'Nades are pretty slow without Grenadier, but I think they work out to be a little bit faster with the trait, and both have the advantage that you don't need a direct hit to deal damage.

But on consideration of the 'new' (yeah, I know, it was a little over a year ago) behaviour of Poison Dart Volley... this really seems like a "there's a weapon that is already intended to do this, it just needs to be better" problem. But there is no core melee weapon. It's probably not coincidence that both of the elite specs have a melee weapon.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

> >

> > It'd certainly _help,_ although I'm not sure rifle really needs it - rifle is reasonably effective.

> >

> > I think a melee weapon would still make a lot of sense, though. Core engi has always had the problem that you could often have all the ranged options you need out of kits, to the point where what you're using beneath it is somewhat redundant - something that maybe you pull out now and then to pop off a high-impact skill and then swap out of because your kits generally offer better spammable options. A melee weapon, on the other hand, would allow engineer to be played in a fashion where kits are the primary ranged weapon, but they can pull out the melee weapon as a suitable sidearm when pushed into melee.

> >

> > Thus far, ArenaNet has 'solved' the issue by making every elite spec weapon melee... but that's going to get tiring if elite spec weapons end up becoming a constant string of filling the same gap in the core weapons again and again. Toss a melee weapon on core - ideally a one-handed weapon so it can be combined with shield, but I'm not picky - and the problem can then be solved not just for core engineer, but all future elite specialisations at once, which can now be free to have ranged weapons without making it so that the elite spec can't have a melee option without having to spend a utility skill slot on the tool kit or the bomb kit.

>

> I'm not sure the archetype of "Melee Weapon" is the one that's missing from Engie though.

>

> Given that, Rifle is best utilized as a melee weapon due to the way Blunderbuss and Jump Shot gain maximum effectiveness from being up close (To get the highest scaling of damage/bleed on Blunderbuss and to hit with both the jump and landing of Jump Shot)

>

> Pistol is in a similar boat, namely due to Blowtorch being the main reason to run MH Pistol as a damage focused build (Support builds like Heal Scrapper will also use Pistol MH but for Shield usage rather than actually caring about Pistol MH at all)

>

> If anything, Engie as a whole lacks an actual **ranged** weapon. Even with kits there's no actual ranged weapons available for Engie, Grenade Kit is the closest but becomes inconsistent at range due to travel times. Every other kit has melee/short range (Bomb Kit is melee range, Tool Kit is melee range, Flamethrower is 425 range with a couple of 600 range skills) or is a purely supportive option (Elixir Gun and Mortar Kit don't really deal damage they're more about the effects of their skills such as the elixir benefits and combo fields)

>

> Though, this isn't that huge a problem, given that in PvP/WvW projectile hate reduces the effectivness of many ranged weapons anyway and in PvE stacking in melee is the optimal strat anyway for boons and to get the effect of the Firearms traits.

>

> Hence why I believe the most notable lack in Engie's weapons is the Power based 1 handed weapon to pair with Shield (Which could also arguably be paired with the lack of a true Power based offhand weapon though Burn is OP enough where Blowtorch is still somewhat decent in Power, especially with Might stacks). One could argue to simply buff Pistol to be good in Power builds, but such a option could easily break Condi builds in PvP by making the hybrid stat builds that are popular (I.e. Carrion) even more bursty.

Rifle and pistol/pistol are what I generally refer to as 'skirmishing' sets. They have cooldown skills that reward being in close, but they also have skills oriented towards opening a gap again, and their autoattack is intended for standoff use. The intended playstyle is one that involves closing in for a burst _and then backing off to a standoff position again_, rather than full melee.

Elixir gun, for all that you claim it's support (it's not, actually look at the coefficients, it probably outdoes pistol/pistol for hybrid builds if it wasn't for Blowtorch, and not too long ago it clearly outperformed pistol if you excluded Blowtorch) has a similar 'skirmishing' playstyle. Which is part of where my experience came from: back in the day when flamethrower and elixir gun had traits in common, I was running a build that used both, and I found while doing so that the weaponset I was using underneath was largely redundant because I already had everything but melee covered through those kits (can't remember what I normally had in the third slot, but I remember that I didn't really want it to be toolkit). What the build could have really used was a melee weapon beneath the kits, but that wasn't available (and still isn't on core). I think the least bad option I found was running pistol/shield so I had the extra defenses when I needed it.

Engineer, at the moment, does reasonably well at long range. Pistol/shield works fairly well at standoff poking... well, about as well as MH pistol works at anything these days. Rifle does decent damage just off Hip Shot and Overcharged Shot, and if it's not a situation where getting in close is too awkward, you can Jump Shot in, Blunderbuss, and Overcharged Shot out again. If we include kits, Elixir Gun is a more condi-oriented (but still with decent power coefficients on Glob Shot and Acid Bomb) equivalent of rifle in that respect, and while grenades and mortars may have long flight times, that's the price you pay for area attacks that are just as strong at maximum range as they are in-close.

It's true that they don't have a sniper-type weapon for rapidly downing a single enemy at long range, but that's not a capability every profession is expected to have - like guardian and thief, that's something that would be reasonable to delegate to an elite profession. Every profession, however, has a core melee weapon (dagger elementalist ranges vary by attunement, since swapping attunements is how dagger ele goes from melee to standoff mode, but dagger air is effectively melee despite having slightly greater reach than most melee attacks) except engineer, which can only get a melee weapon through spending a utility slot or an elite specialisation slot. So far, this has been swept under the rug through core engi being all but abandoned and all of the elite specialisations thus far having melee weapons, but that shouldn't continue indefinitely.

Yeah, I don't disagree. Conceptually, I think the mesmer is supposed to encompass _both_ resource manipulation and deception, but in practice, GW1 didn't allow for much space for deception, while GW2 doesn't have a universal resource to manipulate apart from skill recharge. GW1 also allows for highly specialised skills (such as adrenaline denial which in the original release only worked against warriors) while GW2 usually doesn't have space for skills that specifically target a particular profession, especially since NPCs don't formally have professions according to game mechanics in GW2 (even if a lot of them obviously are members of specific professions thematically).

Hex fields kinda sound like what some of the glamours were originally trying to do. Want to use projectiles? Feedback will send those projectiles back at your face. Want to use boons and conditions? Null Field says hi. Mind you, there could be room to have other things in this sort of theme. For instance, consider things like Kalla's spirits, particularly the elite and the bleed spirit that practically nobody uses - mesmers might be able to summon something equivalent, but instead of linking to allies to buff them, it links to enemies and generates an effect when the enemy sets of a particular trigger. Fragility, for instance, could become an example that causes enemies under its influence to take damage whenever they gain or lose a condition, which can be countered by destroying the entity that's generating the effect or moving out of its zone, while an Empathy might cause the player to receive a proportion of the damage they dish out (similar to GW1 Pain Inverter).

(I would note that I don't think Livia using Fragility _necessarily_ means that it's moving into GW2 necromancer - GW2 Livia seems like she's (still) a full N/Me, and possibly has other abilities given that ArenaNet has indicated that the main barrier in the present day to learning multiple professions is having the time to do so. IIRC, she uses illusion in Sea of Sorrows as well.)

> @"juno.1840" said:

> Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

It'd certainly _help,_ although I'm not sure rifle really needs it - rifle is reasonably effective.

I think a melee weapon would still make a lot of sense, though. Core engi has always had the problem that you could often have all the ranged options you need out of kits, to the point where what you're using beneath it is somewhat redundant - something that maybe you pull out now and then to pop off a high-impact skill and then swap out of because your kits generally offer better spammable options. A melee weapon, on the other hand, would allow engineer to be played in a fashion where kits are the primary ranged weapon, but they can pull out the melee weapon as a suitable sidearm when pushed into melee.

Thus far, ArenaNet has 'solved' the issue by making every elite spec weapon melee... but that's going to get tiring if elite spec weapons end up becoming a constant string of filling the same gap in the core weapons again and again. Toss a melee weapon on core - ideally a one-handed weapon so it can be combined with shield, but I'm not picky - and the problem can then be solved not just for core engineer, but all future elite specialisations at once, which can now be free to have ranged weapons without making it so that the elite spec can't have a melee option without having to spend a utility skill slot on the tool kit or the bomb kit.

Pistol not being good even for conditions is really an argument for pistol to be buffed.

But yeah... even with elite specialisations, I think there is a strong argument to giving an additional core weapon to a couple of professions, namely engineer and revenant. Otherwise we're just likely to keep seeing elite specialisation weapons that are trying to fill the same gap in the core profession because the elite just doesn't work properly without filling that gap.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1.

> >

> > No, just no. Especially for the ranger, be it pet builds, trap builds, spirit builds, interrupt builds, preparation's builds, touch builds... etc. There is not a shred of play feel in gw2's ranger alike to gw1's. And it's true for all gw2's professions, the 2 games are just way to different for anyone to claim that there is similar play feel.

>

> You misunderstand. You can generally determine what people will enjoy based on what they enjoy in other games. I can make recommendations to people based on what they enjoyed in say WoW or even Dungeons and Dragons.

I think that's a valid point to make. For me, the playstyles I enjoyed with ranger, warrior, and elementalist in GW1 just don't transfer even in principle to their GW2 equivalents... but if I was to encourage someone to play a warrior or a ranger in GW1 based off my knowledge of their preferences, I would probably do so in GW2 as well, unless one of the new GW2 professions was a better fit. Elementalist... depends. GW2 elementalist is pretty committed to being a master of all four (if not necessarily at the same time) so if someone _really_ wants to use a specific element, I might not necessarily encourage them to play elementalist in GW2.

Mesmer... while they're not completely different by any stretch, they do have very different focuses. GW1 mesmer is mostly about mental magic, countering enemy magic, and direct manipulation of magical energy. GW2 mesmer, on the other hand, is more of a summoner/illusionist archetype (in fact, if you've seen the discussion of what the Utopia Summoner was to be, it's basically what phantasms do now) with arcane utility effects (teleports, slow and haste effects, protective fields) and offensive spells formed from generic magical energy (although the graphics are sufficiently lightning-like that if someone really wanted to play a lightning mage in GW2, I would probably direct them to mesmer). A lot of the settings do roll these two themes together, and in Guild Wars I think the distinction is at least as much due to GW2 having different mechanics to GW1 than due to any reimagining of what the mesmer is, but I can certainly see cases where I might recommend someone to play a GW1 mesmer but the GW2 mesmer would not be as good a fit for what they want, or vice versa.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> But the weapons have a leading thematic, some kind of technology they are built around. For scrapper and it's hammer, that is electricity/electromagnetism.

Is it, though?

Put the hammer aside, and it's all drones. Said drones are clearly powered by electricity, but the only scrapper utility that's really associated with electricity is the Shredder Gyro toolbelt skill and Function Gyro producing a lightning field, and there's no actual lightning with the latter. It's a game mechanical thing that gives the scrapper more opportunity to get swiftness or dazes, which are significant parts of the scrapper playstyle.

With the hammer... apart from skill 5, it really just feels like a melee weapon with electricity animations attached apart from skill 5, which is another source of a lightning field (albeit one that does have actual lightning). Static discharge holosmith with sword and shield really feels more genuinely electricity-themed than anything you can do with scrapper. Pistol/shield would be even better thematically, but doesn't work mechanically since pistol really wants to be condi-based while Static Discharge _really_ wants max crit chance and high ferocity as well as power.

So no, I don't think a melee weapon with a bit of static electricity exhausts the theme. There's definitely room for something similar in nature to, say, the [Ghost Collector bundle](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghost_Collector) to have a completely different feel and playstyle, and if ArenaNet went the whole hog, a set of electricity and magnetism-themed utilities would probably feel very different to the scrapper's drones (it would probably be at more risk of overlapping with holosmith utilities, to be honest). Just like druid staff having some plant-themed skills shouldn't mean that ranger should never have anything plant-themed again, and reaper having an entire row of traits based around chill doesn't mean that necromancer should never get to play with cold in any future elite specialisations.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> **Alchemical theme**

> This is something that is really important for me.

> We already have a "mechanical" elite spec (scrapper) and a scifi Asuran flavoured elite spec (holosmith).

> Alchemy and chemical warfare is something that I want to see for the next elite spec. The chemical aspects are my favourite in engineer and I would like to see an elite spec that can enhance that theme.

>

> @"EdwinLi.1284" Biggest problem that I have with staff as our next elite spec weapon is that most people are suggesting it with an electrical theme like you are doing here....

>

> We already have an elite spec with electrical theme: scrapper

> I see no reason to double down on that if we still have so many other thematical niches of the engineer to explore.

> In my own idea here, staff could possibly work as a weapon choice if it is used as a chemical dispenser to spread fumes and splash tinctures around. Still prefer the combo potential of double wielding a onehanded weapon, tho.

>

>

Well, is the scrapper mechanical or electrical?

I've said it before, but I think the electricity is a general _engineer_ theme, which carries into the scrapper. Core engineer also has a number of electrical-themed skills and traits (and magnetic, which is closely related), and even holosmith has lightning animations in some of its effects if you look closely (makes sense they'd use lightning crystals rather than sticking purely to sun crystals - some of the holosmith effects seem like they might be making use of wind crystals as well). Hammer as a weapon has an electricity theme, but if you run pistol/shield then 3-5 become themed around electromagnetism. Meanwhile, the rest of scrapper is... well, it's more mechanical than electrical. There's electricity in there, but mostly because electricity is being used as a power source for the actual primary theme of mechanical drones.

So I don't think it's fair to say that Scrapper covers the electricity theme for engineer. As I've said before, it's like saying that firebrand covers the fire theme for guardian, or that reaper covers the cold theme for necromancer, or druid covers the plant theme for ranger. Sure, it's _there,_ but it's nothing that wasn't already there in the core profession, and like the examples above, it's not the primary theme of the elite specialisation but, at most, a strong secondary theme. There's room to revisit it in the future.

Not necessarily the next time around, since it's probably more important to get better support and condi options for engineer at the moment and expanding on the alchemy theme would cover that a lot better, but I don't think it's fair to say "been there, done that" on it either.

Nothing wrong with one specialisation being the selfish one, as long as there are other options that aren't. Selfishness is generally how you balance a profession which is really good at messing up the other side.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> What I am caring for to transport over to GW2 is the thematic of the ritualist. An ancient spirit communer that uses souls to strengthen weapons with magical power. This is the thematic I am looking for. Spirits were fun and what I played my ritualist most with in GW1, but we already have turrets and the renegade doing something similar, that thematic is not needed that badly for me. What I am missing are the weapon spells.

Except that while they have the Mists in common, and blindfolds, that's about all they have in common.

We've already had a ritualist-like revenant elite spec and, honestly, I think it'd be a waste for ArenaNet to waste the potential of the revenant to have another elite spec that's basically just a different ritualist-like playstyle. Revenant can draw inspiration from pretty much anything, including entities that are well outside of the normal range of mortal professions. It should go for the things that just don't fit well anywhere else.

Additionally, core revenant does not mesh well with classic ritualist. The martial weapons of the core revenant make it a soldier profession at heart, and the only core legend with any form of ritualist feel is Ventari. Core necromancer in GW2, however, has moved more into the spectral realm, and therefore already seems to have already absorbed elements that were, in GW1, firmly in the ritualist's domain. Spectral claws striking at the enemy from beyond (axe, focus, staff auto) seem very on-brand to me, and marks don't seem that off-brand either. Spectral skills fit the ritualist theme to a T, there's the Shadow Fiend, and even wells and corruptions aren't really that far off brand (a well can be considered to be equivalent to one of those spirits which have an effect in a radius around them just without the actual spirit being able to be attacked, and corruptions play into the ritualist being the _other_ GW1 profession that could sacrifice health to generate effects. GW2 just has the sacrifice in the form of conditions instead). Corporeal minions might not fit the themes as well, but _do_ provide for a bunch of substitutes for spirits that follow you around automatically (apart from Flesh Wurm) rather than needing to be teleported around through a PvE-only skill... and with GW1's secondary profession mechanic, Rt/N Spawning Power minionmancers were a thing, although they generally weren't considered as efficient as primary necromancers

If there's some element of ritualist you really want in GW2, I think it would be a better fit layered onto necromancer as an elite specialisation rather than trying to shoehorn it into revenant. GW2 Necromancer already provides a core that has many of the same themes, options, and strengths as GW1 ritualist did, allowing the player to either go all in on what the specialisation brings or to mix and match different themes just like a GW1-style ritualist could (yes, a ritualist COULD specialise into a particular theme... but it could also have a build that combined several, and many of its skills had synergies between skill types that encouraged this). Bolting it onto ritualist... well, first, if it's weapon spells or whatever it might be, you're going to have a set five that you're always going to have while running the legend with no ability to customise, because that's how revenant works. And unless you're running Ventari (which pretty much locks you into support if not straight healing), you're going to inevitably be swapping into something that feels more like a dervish or an assassin than a ritualist.

Any effort to recreate the ritualist through an elite specialisation is going to work a lot better on a necromancer core than a revenant, simply because the GW2 core necromancer is a lot closer to the GW1 ritualist in terms of playstyle and what sort of skills it brings to the table than the revenant is. Add it to the necromancer, and it can be integrated with the necromancer core in a way that feels like a fairly seemless fit except that the skill effects are mostly black and green rather than teal. Add it to revenant, and it's likely to end up feeling like a stitchup that might spend half its time behaving like a ritualist, but is expected to regularly swap to another playstyle which, if not support-oriented Ventari, is designed to go into close combat.

There's already one ritualist-like elite spec for revenant. Let the revenant do its own thing.

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> Especs are not defined by roles, roles are defined by the theme of the espec, at least ever since PoF (especs will have at least 2 or more defining and different roles).

>

> I doubt they will release a ‘healer’ espec ever again (e.g. druid), with the amount of options flying around, being restricted to such a role would make the espec way too niche to ever be played, unless the espec was planned to be completely useless from the start. It would be appropriate if said espec had a option for some alternate dps/bruiser/dueler role so it would see some use elsewhere. Switching to an espec which plays vastly differently from what is preferred just to play a very general role (e.g. usually ‘dps’) isn’t really a good argument either.

>

> My only hope is that they’ve learned from their mishaps and actually design especs that achieve what they were supposedly intended to do (create new options, take away some, have distinct playstyle and different mechanics from core, not have to continually nerf the espec because the concept is broken, etc.).

There's definitely a degree of truth in this, but I think there are good examples of elite specs that can make pretty good healers (or supports in general) but aren't defined by being the healer as much as druid is. Firebrand, tempest, and renegede are all fairly capable of acting as healers, but can viably perform other roles as well. Druid is... it's pretty much obliged to be a support build. Now, it's worth noting that good support builds are often defined more by what they bring to the table OTHER than healing rather than pure healing output, and druid does bring a good set of buffs as well, but it is a bit pigeonholed.

However, that doesn't mean we can't say "profession X could do with an elite specialisation that can do Y", as long as Y isn't the only thing the elite specialisation can do. The example of the plaguedoctor engineer, for instance, could be similar to firebrand, having builds suitable both for DPS, support, or some hybrid of the two (similar to condi quickbrand).

To put in my own two cents:

First, as a general observation, it's probably a bit late to put in threat mechanics without rebuilding the game mechanics from the ground up. Possibly they could make using the taunt mechanic draw aggro for a time after the condition itself expires, but any skill who's primary effect is "draw aggro" just isn't going to work well in PvP, and ArenaNet is only willing to split so far.

Going through the professions:

**Warrior**

What would probably fit for the warrior at this stage is a supportive/commander spec, after the Berserker which seems to be oriented largely as a DPS spec, and the Spellbreaker which is largely bruiser-oriented. How this would work exactly is an open question - at the risk of not being Canthan-themed, Paragon is possibly the most obvious option for this approach, but this might not be adding much that warrior and guardian can't already do.

Past elite specialisations for warrior thus far have generally been themed towards adding magic to the warrior, which might work better to provide a distinct playstyle. With guardian around, W/Mo is pretty much covered already, while reapers and, arguably, Mallyx revs have the 'dark magic warrior' theme covered. What could possibly be interesting is a water/earth themed dervish-esque spec, which would in turn bring up staff as a possible (melee, but possibly PBAoE-oriented) weapon.

**Guardian**

Honestly, at this stage, I'm just jealous of what Almorra had. Something oriented more towards 1v1s with a bit more mobility and chase potential than DHs, firebrands, or regular guardians could fit in well.

**Revenant**

It's a discussion that's been had before, but I really think Kalla is already about as ritualist as revenant is ever likely to be. It summons spirits that heal, provide buffs, attack, and with a trait, protect.

At the moment, I think the one thing revenant probably doesn't need right now is another support spec. Herald tried to be, even if what it provides is fairly generic and therefore not in all that high demand. Renegade was then a second shot at it that actually worked. Given that half of the core legends are also fairly supportive-themed, that's probably enough for the time being.

**Ranger**

Gonna have to admit to not having a lot of inspiration when it comes to ranger. Druid is a pretty clear-cut support-oriented spec, while soulbeast has worked out to be pretty much oriented towards DPS, particularly power spikes. Possibly something with more self-sustain or more AoE-oriented.

As a lore observation, there is that story about an NPC ranger who sent an army of animals against an evil spellcaster - the Ranger incumbent at Tahnnakai Temple, if I recall correctly. So there could be a precedent for an 'army of animals'-type spec in there. Something themed around the Wardens could also be interesting, particularly since that would be an opportune way to bring back hammer rangers.

**Thief**

As has been said - a proper support thief would be the gap-filler here.

In this regard, I do note that the daredevil already has the 'martial arts' theme, while deadeyes have the whole mark mechanic which feels quite assassin-y regardless of the weapon choice. What seems to largely be missing is the more magical theme (although deadeye also leans a bit into that with cantrips). So I think that would probably be a suitable approach for a more support-oriented thief, drawing more deeply from shadow magic to heal and protect allies. Focus offhand could be interesting here, particularly given that for a thief taking a focus over some other offhand would mean three skills (one of which would depend on the other weapon being wielded rather than just two. Could be interesting to see what ArenaNet might be able to come up with for pistol/focus, dagger/focus, and sword/focus.

**Engineer**

I think the biggest thing here is "not another melee spec". They've had two. Don't need another. To make matters worse, even most of the core profession is oriented towards fighting at medium ranges at best.

Beyond that, I am leaning towards support-oriented. The 'plaguedoctor' theme floating around is a decent one for hitting the currently lacking buttons of "range", "support", "conditions", and "chemical-oriented" (something that's been pregressively reduced in core engineer over time, although it's obviously still present). That said, I will note that I don't agree with the viewpoint of @"Kodama.6453" that engineer has already had their electricity theme. Engineers are the technology-oriented profession, electricity is often closely associated with technology, and it's present in core engineer and (if you look at the skill graphics) holosmith - saying that scrapper is the electricity-themed engineer elite spec and it therefore shouldn't have another one is, IMO, like saying that firebrand is the fire-themed guardian elite specialisation and therefore future elite specialisations shouldn't use fire. The chemical theme probably is more fitting for Cantha and provides for conditions, so it should probably have priority for the immediate future, but I think there's definitely room for more electricity in the engineer.

**Necromancer**

There's a degree to which it's probably reasonable to say that necromancer builds are somewhat defined by what they do with their shrouds. Core necro is a bit of a ranged bruiser, albeit through a double health pool rather than active defences. Reaper is melee DPS. Scourge is support.

If I was looking for somewhere where the necromancer _really_ needs help, I'd probably be looking at DPS in cooperative instanced content. Power reapers do well in small-scale PvP and in solo PvE because they're very self-sufficient - they can provide themselves with a lot of Might, inflict a lot of Vulnerability, give themselves quickness, and give themselves some truly ridiculous boosts to crit chance. This means that they can often outperform most professions in solo DPS, but do not benefit as much from buffs as they're often overlapping with things the reaper already has. It's probably not possible to buff reaper so that it's competitive in raids without making it ridiculously strong, comparatively speaking, in terms of solo PvE DPS.

Some of this is baked into the necromancer core so there's not much that can be done about it (although reducing the rate at which shroud skill 1 is used will reduce the Might and Vulnerability stacks), but I think there is the opportunity there for a necromancer DPS build which is a bit less self-sufficient and thus can benefit more from support. Such a build would probably underperform compared to reaper in solo PvE, but would allow necromancer to be more competitive for DPS slots in raids, fractals, and the like.

There's also a degree to which both necromancer elite specs are a bit "benefits from being in melee or in close", but it's not as bad as engineer or elementalist.

On a thematic note, I would say that if I was to bring in a ritualist-themed elite specialisation, doing so with the necromancer would make a lot of sense. How well that would blend with the considerations above is left as an exercise for the reader.

**Elementalist**

As intimated above, elementalists are another profession where the elite specs have kept being melee-oriented, or at least close-in-oriented. Tempest isn't technically melee, but is loaded with area effects centered on the tempest. Weaver, with its normal weapon, actually IS melee, and while it can certainly function well with other weapons, it's utilities also seem themed around being in close. I think it'd be worthwhile to see a third standoff weapon alongside staff and scepter. Don't really have strong feelings as to what it is, but with staff being mostly oriented towards fighting groups and scepter still being fairly group oriented when not attuned to air, it might be nice to see a weapon that's optimised towards fighting single targets.

Exactly what theme it would have... that, again, I might leave as an exercise to the reader. It's getting late local. The most obvious choices for a ranged, single-target optimised weapon would probably be rifle or pistols, though, which naturally suggests a theme.

**Mesmer**

...ironically, mesmer is another profession whose elite specs have been more melee-oriented. Chronomancer wells have the strongest effect when both you and your enemy are on them, while mirage is a bit like weaver in that it can be used with a ranged style but most of its kit is oriented towards close combat. Otherwise, while mesmers are in a bit of an unstable balance where they tend to swing between OP and UP in competitive modes, in PvE they're in a fairly good state, having good DPS and support builds both, although they can sometimes feel a bit fragile in open world. (Part of the problem there, though, is that like scrappers, they can sometimes feel invincible one moment and then you're practically dead and your cooldowns are gone the next - a lot of mesmer builds nowadays are good at remaining at full health one way or another while things are going well, and bad at recovering when things go downhill.)

I think I've been in a few discussions regarding different playstyles for mesmer that could come up in an elite specialisation, but right now, I'm having trouble remembering what they might be. From what I recall, they tended to mostly involve altering with the illusions mechanics. Currently, we have Chronophantasma, which makes phantasms more persistent, and Infinite Horizon, which kinda means you can use your clones as pseudo-phantasms. One concept I do recall is removing shatters and replacing them with skills that cause clones to perform specific actions, although I don't recall the details.

Maybe I'll recall more in the future. At this point, I should probably wrap this up.

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > > But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that _Taimi believed_ that was the case.

> > > >

> > > > Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the _players_ would be thinking.

> > >

> > > Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

> > >

> > > They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.

> > > On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

> >

> > It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

>

> In regards to Caithe's branding, Aurine did possees a great chunk of Mordremoth's magic when she born thanks to the egg absorbing it after his death.

> That could be the reason why she is able to brand Sylvari.

> Likewise Aurine also shares a lot of Kralkatorriks power too and is a Crystal Dragon herself which again could explain how she can re-brand Branded creatures as well.

>

> I think the lab experiments are ultimately the only real enigma's.

> Do we have any information on how specifically they were created?

> My guess is they exposed creatures to multiple forms of corruption all at once which is what caused them to be multi corrupted.

I see a lot of trying to adjust the theory to try to explain away evidence to disprove it, when the simple explanation that explains everything is that corruption of dragon minions is possible but the Elder Dragons choose not to corrupt each other's minions because they don't gain control of the resulting multi-corrupted creature as a minion.

Occam's Razor.

We need no special pleading, no special exceptions, no special circumstances, and no theories about how the Inquest might have got around the supposed rule. Just one simple rule that explains why it doesn't normally happen, but also explains all the circumstances in which it _has_ happened.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that _Taimi believed_ that was the case.

Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the _players_ would be thinking.

> @"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:

> Yeah, I'm not too happy about this but for a different reason than seems to be the popular one here. I crafted the T1 on the premise that I would be able to upgrade them to T2 just to find out that T1 is a throwaway tier, I could have skipped them and just made T2. At the very least they could have had 2 recipes, 1 for people without the T1 that is full price, and a second for those of us with the T1 that is discounted, maybe only 1 core and 1 draconic lodestone. But as it is this decision pretty much undermines the whole thing that they set up with the previous release.

Yeah, if they've done this to avoid complaints, they could have also provided a recipe that uses the T1 version in lieu of some of the repeated components. As is, it seems that apart from collection completion (and the rewards for Stormcaller Armaments aren't that great apart from the mastery point, which you can get just from the reward tracks) there's not much point in getting the tier 1s unless you prefer the subtler effect.

I don't think it would work that way. Jormag trying to absorb Primordus' magic would probably simply kill em.