draxynnic.3719

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

>

> yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

It kinda is. Sylvari culture as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without Ventari. What we would have had instead isn't really known, but it wouldn't be what we have.

Asgeir certainly is a possible candidate, but that's the level we're looking at. Anybody that comes in as a legend should either be a name that pretty much anyone with a basic familiarity with the lore immediately recognises, or something new that is presented with the context of why they're impressive. A character which shows up in an instance but which is largely forgettable, though, is _probably_ not a suitable candidate.

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> No trait line is made to be exclusively associated to its corresponding legend. Because it would artificially prevent build diversity.

> No trait line has a row of talents competing for the exact same goal. Because people would just use the "mathematically best".

> That's why Devastation traits are not tied to Impossible Odds but favoring vulnerability, dual wielding, quickness, might, and direct damage.

> Things you'll have available when playing dual swords + Shiro Tagashi, but not exclusively.

Pretty much this. Generally speaking, the traitlines have the _most_ synergy with the associated legend, but this isn't intended to be a hard-and-fast rule. Glint/Jalis with Devastation instead of Retribution used to be fairly popular in PvE thanks to the synergy between Assassin's Annihilation and Vengeful Hammers, for instance.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > > > > The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

> > > > >

> > > > > Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

> > > > >

> > > > > Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

> > > >

> > > > The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even _close_ to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a _little_ less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

> > > >

> > > > Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

> > >

> > > Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

> > >

> > > Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

> >

> > Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes _this_ havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

> >

> > But there was only _one_ rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only _one_ Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only _one_ Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only _one_ first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

> >

> > That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

> >

> > Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but _not_ so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I _am_ remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than _Turai freaking Ossa._

> >

> > Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

>

> The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

>

> This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on _individual_ accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because _that_ usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a _reason_ all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

The norn drive to build their _individual_ legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that _quite_ managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their _average_ population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best _whatever_ of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture _doesn't_ actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn _less_ likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't _that_ significant.

In terms of why Aurene might be more resistant to Torment than the other Elder Dragons...

I think it might come down to the motivation behind replacing the Elder Dragons in the first place - to substitute in entities that _regulate_ magic rather than _hoarding_ it. Aurene isn't trying to claim all the magic for herself - she's taking in _enough_ that the world's ambient magical field remains somewhat in check, and redistributing the rest. As opposed to the original Elder Dragons, which try to consume everything while awake and then it leaks out while they sleep. Because of this, she might be keeping her own magic level within the constraints that a dragon can maintain while also retaining their sanity.

Which means two things:

First, she's always going to be less powerful than the other Elder Dragons. Her personal power is probably going to be less, and she's not going to be able to maintain the armies of minions that the other Elder Dragons do. It's telling, in fact, that the Icebrood prelude shows that Aurene seems to be focusing on destroying Branded rather than simply having assumed control over them herself. (Although it's possible that what she's done is released them, so that intelligent Branded such as surviving Branded Forgotten might now be working for her, while non-intelligent Branded are now essentially dangerous animals).

The second is that if Aurene is maintaining her sanity by keeping her personal magic level carefully regulated, there's always the threat that at some stage she's going to miscalculate and end up with too much.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> The primary goal **now**, when afflicted by torment, is to consume all magic as greedily as possible. But as we learn with the Bloodstone-Crazed and those influenced by ley-line magic, those who get overexposed to magic begin craving magic.

>

> To me, this is a **very strong** indication that "just because it is their main actions now, doesn't mean it always was."

>

> As such, to me, this is in turn **not** an indication that pre-Torment Kralkatorrik (or any ED pre-Torment) was primarily after consuming all types of magic. If anything, consuming all types of magic while sane seems more like a _means to an end_ rather than the end itself. Much like with Caudecus, for example - his goal wasn't to consume bloodstone shards and go batshit insane with a greed for more bloodstone magic; he was just consuming bloodstone shards in order to gain enough power to obtain his goal of winning the war after he got backed into a corner.

>

> I find it far more likely for all Elder Dragons to have gone after consuming too much magic either little by little, or as a means to an end for their goal - depending on whether they were "good" or "evil" before being afflicted with magical Torment. Does that mean it would be so for _every_ Elder Dragon? Nah. Just some.

It's possible that the original motivation was power for a specific purpose rather than power for power's sake... but whatever original motivation that might have been has been lost to eons of time. Either way, unless the Elder Dragons really did exist forever (and the implication that Kralkatorrik had a mother seems to contradict that), there is _some_ point at which the group that would become the Elder Dragons decided to collect all the magic they could at the expense of everything else in Tyria. That's the one event that we can have good reason to think happened _before_ Torment kicked in (since Torment is presented as a symptom of one entity having too much magic), and it is an entirely adequate explanation of Kralkatorrik being "not good" without pinning it on rejecting a vision which Sane Kralkatorrik shows no sign of rejecting in the instance, and if anything seems to welcome it.

The impression I get is that Kralkatorrik's vision and creation of Glaust was a relatively recent event, possibly during the last Dragonrise - _well_ after Kralkatorrik's Torment was well established. So actions taken in opposition to the vision can be entirely pinned on Torment.

> @"thepenmonster.3621" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

>

> The Commander is the Mule?

>

> Accepting this idea of soft-predetermination where the details of an event can be changed but the event *will* still happen, then I think its probably closer to the old concept that time is a wide river and while you can toss all the stones in it you want it's still going to the ocean. This would still mean that there is a shape to Tyria's future that the Kralk Family would have seen. Perhaps Kranlk was too filled with torment to realize that he could change things. Or perhaps he felt that the river must flow as intended because it will regardless.

Actually, given that there are a number of races and professions that the Commander _could_ be, the number of other NPCs floating around that are at least _close_ to the Commander's power level, and the fact that Kralkatorrik's vision requires someone equivalent to the Commander, I don't think the Commander is the Mule. Instead, the Commander is a manifestation of the fact that the playable races are each able to produce someone like the Commander, and in the circumstances the playable races were in, it was inevitable that _someone_ would take up that mantle.

But that's the general theme behind the concept of psychohistory - each individual is able to determine their own fate, but the _aggregate_ is predictable. If the human Commander got brained by the earth elemental rather than simply knocked unconscious, a charr (or other race) Commander rises instead. If Bangar had told Jormag to shove it, maybe Jormag would have started working on a centaur leader or anti-human Tribune instead.

Hammer still works pretty well with a symbol-oriented sustain build. Sure, that's generally not what you want in group events and instances (although it _can_ add a fair amount of sustain to a group, taking pressure off healers) but there have definitely been times when I've gone "yeah, what I need to get through this smoothly is a hammer symbols build".

Wouldn't object to improvements to skills 3-5, though.

> @"Zeljius.9703" said:

> And on another, i'm still actively annoyed that Leap of Faith and Symbol of Wrath on GS are separate skills when One-hand Sword 2's Symbol of Blades is BASICALLY **THOSE TWO SKILLS COMBINED**. Pls combine GS skill 3 and 4 and give guardian GS a new skill, maybe a block Counter attack called Zealot's Offense or something.

While part of the reason for that change was to make sure that every guardian weaponset had a symbol, if I recall correctly, it was also a factor that sword was underused and ArenaNet wanted to buff it. Given that greatsword is still the most popular power DPS weapon, I don't think ArenaNet is looking to buff it further.

Plus, if those skills were to be merged, it'd probably have the higher cooldown, decreasing overall mobility.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

Except there's _plenty_ of indication.

The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of _all_ the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is _what Elder Dragons do._ I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

Or make eitrite salvageable (but not able to be salvaged using quick salvage), similar to ectoplasm?

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

This assumption, I think, is where your logic chain falls down. There's the simplest motivation of all for Kralkatorrik to be "not good" before Torment: he, along with the other Elder Dragons, wanted power, and were willing to wreak massive destruction to get it. It's been a theme right back to the original Prophecies Manuscripts that the prospect of gaining magical power can lead to destructive conflict as people seek to seize it - the Guild Wars are blamed on the emergence of the bloodstones from the volcano they were dropped into, for instance - and the Elder Dragons are essentially the ultimate manifestation of this greed.

There's no need to pin his "not good" status on rejecting the vision when greed for power and the willingness to destroy anything to get more is a theme common to all of the Elder Dragons. Particularly since Kralkatorrik has already shown that Glint was at least partially mistaken regarding Kralkatorrik's motives.

Ultimately, though, we have nothing to say that Kralkatorrik's goal was to prevent peace between dragons and mortals. It's _possible,_ but there's a much simpler explanation for his "not good" status which, IMO, is more consistent with Sane Kralkatorrik's behaviour in the instance. He thirsted for power, collected enough to drive him insane, and by the time he realised what he'd done to himself it was too late.

Glaust was created in response to that vision, but if she was wrong about Kralk being terrified, maybe she's also wrong about what his intention in creating her was. Maybe his _intent_ was to make the prophecy happen in a rare moment of lucidity before Torment took control once again.

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

>

> That's a good point. I was going to bring up that the charr are multiple nations who have generally gotten along but you addressed that well. I would say that one big thing Smodur has in his favor is the more global mindset of the playable nations, due to the dragon awakening. This means that charr are incentivized by more options and benefits and quality of life from more nations while they are discouraged by the greater unity of a multination alliance including one that regulates and manages international travel. I think any real effort for the charr to go back to old ways would depend on the humans, sylvari and asura 's relationship to also fail. In fact, we see individual factions who don't want peace from every race are simply not globally successful. And the only real time they stand a chance (short of making themselves into living gods) is when they get allies from other races who are similarly minded.

>

>

Yeah, there's a point where Smodur comments regarding Bangar "and he knew he'd lose". He's referring to Bangar taking on Iron and Ash, but broadly speaking, there's also an interracial quasi-alliance going on and any race that goes against that is going to be in trouble. Pre-truce, the sylvari and asura were both somewhat human-leaning but still largely neutral, probably largely because human-charr history is murky enough that it's hard to say which was really in the right. If one side unilaterally breaks the truce afterwards, though, that side is going to be viewed as the aggressor, and the other races are probably going to support the side that was attacked against the faction that is now seen as the overall threat to peace. Whether asura and sylvari would actively fight on behalf of humans against charr is hard to say, but giving one side full access to asura magitech while the other is completely denied such would probably be decisive, considering that the charr-human war has mostly been one of stalemate and phony war outside of the odd gamechanger such as the Searing. While the charr probably are more powerful overall militarily than Kryta, the gap is not so great that Kryta wasn't able to stalemate and occasionally push back against them, and it's possible that Elona might become a factor in any resumed hostilities.

To offset that, Bangar needs to not just manage to unite the charr fully under himself, he'd also need to reinforce the legions with as many allies as he can get. Centaurs make for a natural ally, especially if he's willing to cede Kryta to the centaurs (or at least claim to until it's their turn for the chopping block).

Mind you, I think another side of it is that Iron and Ash naturally see more benefit to being part of a multiracial system. Iron is an industrial powerhouse, and Ash's espionage skills seem to be applicable to commerce as well (see, for instance, Evon Gnashblade). Blood, on the other hand, is mostly specialised in simply being soldiers. They're not _actually_ as one-dimensional as that statement might imply at face value, but it does seem as if they're the legion that's most likely to be left behind in times of peace, and therefor it makes sense that Bangar would be the most militaristic of the Imperators.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > > The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

> > >

> > > Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

> > >

> > > Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

> > >

> > > Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

> >

> > The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even _close_ to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a _little_ less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

> >

> > Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

>

> Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

>

> Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes _this_ havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

But there was only _one_ rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only _one_ Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only _one_ Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only _one_ first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but _not_ so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I _am_ remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than _Turai freaking Ossa._

Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

>

> Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

>

> Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

>

> Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even _close_ to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a _little_ less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

> @"thepenmonster.3621" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

>

> The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

Not sure about that. My interpretation of what Aurene said was more along the lines that if Bangar himself was removed, someone else would play the same part. Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> As for Kralkatorrik, he **was** evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the _why_ he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

>

> Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned _why_ Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

>

> But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

>

> My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

>

Gotta ask, do you have a source for all this?

From what I recall, the statement that Kralkatorrik was not necessarily "good" before the Torment developed doesn't really say much regarding his motivations where it came to Kralkatorrik's vision. The statement that _all_ Elder Dragons suffered from their equivalent of the Torment - including Zhaitan, the first to be killed - suggests that it was certainly a factor well before the dragons started getting killed and absorbing each other's magics. That certainly seems to have made things _worse,_ but the description of the inside of Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny certainly seems, in light of what we saw in the instance, as an indication that the Torment was already pretty much in charge during the Dragonrise. And if it was in charge when Kralkatorrik had just woken up, it's likely that it was in charge the _last_ time the Elder Dragons were active as well.

Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

I think there are plenty of interpretations of the implication that Kralkatorrik was still evil pre-Torment which are compatible with sane Kralkatorrik nevertheless approving of what he saw in the vision. Consider that the current storyline is essentially around the mystery of whether, despite having participated in the cycle time and time again, Jormag genuinely seeks an end to it rather than simply making a ploy to avoid being destroyed by a team that has already killed three Elder Dragons. It's possible that what was actually going on is that they all enthusiastically and greedily took part in the first cycle or few, and by the time their saner sides started to realise this was actually a bad thing, their various insanities had already set in. So Sane Kralkatorrik might have approved of the vision from the start, but with Torment fully in control, he was limited in what he could actually do to enact it... but it's possible that it was Sane Kralkatorrik that actually put Glaust on her initial steps towards becoming Glint.

Could be interesting is the discrepancies in Jormag's behaviour turn out to be because Jormag itself is hearing a voice that is not its own.

I don't think there's any good reason to think that Rytlock was any more knowledgeable than any random Tyrian at the time.

And that's his purpose at that point in the instance: to be the guy who's blunt enough to say what everyone is thinking, so that Kormir can correct him. He's hardly "objective" - as a charr, he's predisposed to having a negative opinion of the Six, and he shows this multiple times in the story.

We have multiple sources saying Balthazar is weakened - Balthazar himself, out-of-game dev comments, the game mechanics themselves (if it was ArenaNet's intent, they could easily have given Balthazar the blinding effect in our original encounters and then had Kormir give us a blessing to protect against that as a callback to the battle against Abaddon) - Kormir just brings it all together in a nice little bow. As for why they chose to imprison him... it's probably just as simple as the gods realising that killing him is something they can't undo, and they're following the "never do a thing you can't undo until you've considered all the things you can't do after you've done it" principle.

Honestly, your position is starting to feel not just conspiracy-theory-ish, but one that relies on explaining away too much evidence to the contrary to be credible. All the evidence is pointing towards him having been stripped of his rank as well as his power, and you can fly in the face of that evidence if you choose, but don't expect many people to agree with you. Does he still have some spark of divine essence? Probably. Mind you, so does every human, and artifacts of other races such as the Seers and Forgotten also employ divine magic. But he is not one of the Six, nor is he the true God of War in GW2's timescale, even if the playable races in the game were unaware of that shift until PoF.

> @"Vilin.8056" said:

> My suggestion is to practice with melee, have a Dagger/Pistol on swap for multiple foes, this way you can burst damage without spending initiative, while keep enemies constantly in blind effect. Apply rifle on single encounter, more powerful foes.

>

> Keep Invigorating Precision trait in check, 1 silver foods like "Plate of Orrian Steak Frittes" will help a long way.

If you're looking for something to fight multiple foes, sword/pistol probably works better - it has an extra cleave by default, you can still use the blinding cloud, and the dual skill on sword/pistol offers another way of dealing with groups that may sometimes be better than pistol 5 and autoattack.

Broadly speaking, there's probably a _reason_ deadeye didn't come until after daredevil provided an elite specialisation oriented more towards fighting multiple opponents. Some of the areas from season 3 onwards start to lean more towards fewer numbers of individually more dangerous enemies, such that careful use of deadeye rifle can work very well there for picking enemies off one by one, but for S2 and base HoT you need to have good countermeasures for being swarmed.

> @"Waffler.1257" said:

> I'm not sure why Anet would base balancing decisions on win rates at all as they mean essentially nothing due to the game automatically balancing professions between teams.

Yeah, this interaction has crossed my mind as well - I commented to someone a season or two that one of the biggest disincentives to playing a non-firebrand guardian is that it increased the chance that the enemy team would have a firebrand and yours wouldn't.

Obviously, playing a particular profession doesn't guarantee that the enemy team has one, but it happens often enough that countering different builds of your own profession is probably a significant predictor for win rate outside of matches with full premades.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Well, going outside of GW1 references also opens up more possibilities for legends that aren't connected to human history...

> >

> > I think ArenaNet has already set channeling Joko up as being a one-off. The PC says 'okay, I'll do this once, but NEVER AGAIN because channeling Joko just puts a bad taste in my mouth' (not a precise quote, but that's the gist). I could see it being a thing where channeling Joko is a thing that theoretically could happen, but just never does within the timespan covered by GW2 because all revenants are only a couple of degrees of separation from Rytlock and they all agree that channeling Joko is inappropriate.

> >

> > That, and a hypothetical Legendary Lich Stance would probably just result in pretending to be a necro anyway.

>

> I wouldn't say all rev's are a few degrees from rytlock, again norn can utilize and work with mist magic and have been doing so since time immamorial from how they set it up. (Havrouns and shamans) so Id assume its probably safe to say that at least on that end they don't have to be tied to rytlock lore wise. But all the charr revenants are tied to him because he went back to the citadel to train them, thus the renegades were born.

Fluffwise, Rytlock is the first revenant on Tyria, and there's no indication that there's been an independent development of the revenant profession anywhere. Every revenant was either trained by Rytlock (the PC is presumed to have been something else before HoT and then become Rytlock's first student in HoT if the PC is a revenant) or part of a chain that stretches back to Rytlock.

It's possible that now people know it's _possible_ that at some stage someone will figure it out for themselves, but we have no evidence of that. Yes, the norn have some ability to manipulate the Mists, usually with the aid of the Spirits of the Wild, but there's a big difference between "has some Mists-related magic" and actually calling on legends for empowerment the way that a revenant does.

So, yeah, at this stage, I think the statement is fairly accurate. Keep in mind that the links to Rytlock are a large part of the reason for thinking that a new elite specialisation might be more likely to be related to a core Tyria culture than to Cantha - after all, Canthans also have a long history with Mists magic as well as a few possible candidates for legends. If we are to consider the possibility of an independent revenant line sprouting somewhere, it could just as easily (possibly more so) be in Cantha than among the norn.

> @"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

> >

> > Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.

> Bringing the legions together, chasing Jormag through the mountains, now this? Bangar is a busy man.

>

From what we've been told about Bangar, what he's been saying, and who his allies are, wiping out humanity from Tyria and founding an empire from their conquered lands seems to be Bangar's endgame (he boasts about how his "charr imperium will extend from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha"). Jormag he views as a means to an end - if Aurene is willing to fight for humanity he needs his own Elder Dragon to offset her, and if she isn't, then having his own Elder Dragon would just make everything easier.

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as _they_ feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

> >

> > One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

> >

> > (It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

>

> Absolutlely very dangerous. I would say though, that that danger isn't relegated specifically to the charr. It just seems to be the ever present danger of national relationships. We know humanities propensity to turn on their former allies as the need for them lessens from the Guild Wars. And we know that any political ties can be severed by any new change in leadership. Bangar may do that, but that would put him squarely in the realm of every other NPC faction who gets gang banged by all the other playable races.

There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

> > > >

> > > > "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

> > > >

> > > > Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

> > >

> > > And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

> >

> > I mean, the line from Kormir **is** a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of **the Six**." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called *The Five* as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

> >

> > The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being: _" They abated me, dimmed my light..."_ - abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

> >

> > Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

> >

> > And finally, [to quote](

> >

> > _[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when **the other gods stripped him of his power** and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]_

> >

> > And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

> >

> > > Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"

> > > [...]

> > > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

> >

> > It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

> >

> > The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

> >

> > **TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity**

>

> Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

What is a god? Dhuum is also referred to as a god, albeit a fallen one, but he is clearly not one of the Six, nor does he have the power of one of the Six (any more).

Balthazar in PoF is on the same scale. He's a fallen god, therefor promotional material calling him a "god" is not inconsistent (particularly if it is coming from the unreliable viewpoint of what Tyrians thought before PoF started... consider that the Elder Dragons were also described as more akin to natural disasters than antagonists, and _that_ has certainly been shown to be untrue) but we have _multiple_ sources indicating he's been stripped of the power he enjoyed when he was one of the Six.

'Fallen god' can be viewed as a subcategory of 'god', just as 'dwarf star' is a subcategory of 'star', but there is clearly a power level differential between what Balthazar was as one of the Six and what he is in PoF. And we're told point-blank that he's no longer one of the Six, and that that body no longer considers him to be the holder of the portfolio he claims (as distinct from Abaddon, who was still the God of Knowledge during his confinement).

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> I probably wouldn't no, not because I don't find the take interesting, but because there's no lore to support it. The Mursaat are responsible for the White Mantle, not the Gods, and the Mursaat certainly don't have a connection to the Gods.

Actually... it's possible that they might. We know that the mursaat collaborated with the Forgotten before their break with the other elder races. Furthermore, there is evidence that each of the other races might have some connection with the gods:

* The Seers are stated to have used divine magic in the creation of the original Bloodstone. (Can't remember exactly where it was, but there's mention somewhere about how the Forgotten couldn't just make another Bloodstone to regulate magic today because they don't have the divine magic of the Seers. Oh, wait, now I remember - it was part of the lore collection in Tarir.)

* Dwarves have their own Great Dwarf, but in GW1 there were also indications that they also revered at least some of the Six.

* The Lost Thruln who appears every so often in Hoelbrak claims that the jotun were once favoured by the gods until humans supplied them - the Lost Thruln seems very much an unreliable source, but there might be some truth to this.

The mursaat, in turn, also had subtle indications in GW1 that they were actually _angry_ at the then-Five Gods.

So I could see it being the case that all of the so-called Elder Races had some connection with the gods, possibly even being collectively the first group that they sent to Tyria before they brought humans across as well. Now, that may be taking the logic chain too far, but I think it _can_ be said that the mursaat at the very least have had a past association with a race which is known to have been associated with the so-called human gods. It may not have been pure opportunism that they chose a human kingdom to take over.

(Come to think on it, in fact, there's another link: the mursaat (and Seers) clearly knew about the Titans and the Door of Komalie.)

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> Yeah, they're entire societal structure encompasses being multiple branches of a huge military machine. They're entire history is composed of them conquering lands and people, including themselves. There really is no real arguement for them not being a warlike people. I think some people have a problem reconciling being a completely warlike culture with having allies. But the two don't need to be in conflict. And I think Anet has done a good job of portraying that.

The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as _they_ feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

(It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

It does feel a bit conspiracy-theory-ish, and I don't really see any reason to think _why_ the decision to demote Balthazar would necessarily impact on humans in Tyria when the gods are specifically looking to _reduce_ their presence and impact on Tyria.

Saying that the gods were responsible for the Foefire in particular flies in the face of the observation that one of the primary motivations for the gods withdrawing was that they realised they couldn't fight on Tyria without causing more collateral damage than they were willing to accept, and Balthazar's disgrace came because he refused to accept this judgement and wanted to fight the dragons regardless of what that would do to Tyria. Why would the others initiate another disaster when their whole reason for leaving was to avoid exactly that?

> @"Dedlaw.9130" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Being torched by a flamethrower doesn't hurt after the flame thrower stops spitting and yur burning up.

>

> Going by this logic of applying real world physics to ingame mechanics, all fire attacks should cause burning

I think it is reasonable to consider that there may be some forms of fire that is a brief burst that applies thermal shock without having much chance of ignition (particularly on a target who's not wearing flammable gear) as opposed to things that leave burning fuel on the target or where the spell itself keeps the fire going rather than being that brief burst. This probably serves to distinguish the "power damage" flames from the burning appliers.

Which might actually be an explanation for the "final pulse causes burning" mechanic with Flame Jet. The flamethrower is spitting out burning fuel, but for most of the stream there's enough force coming from the jet that the fuel has little chance to settle and burn on the target. It's only as the jet winds down that the fuel can settle and continue to burn.

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

>

> They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

>

> I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

>

> Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

I think there is a degree to which the charr are a race in transition. They're shifting from being a race focused on war (which is supported by industry) to a culture focused on industry (which happens to be useful for war). Bangar is the holdout of the old ways - Smodur probably wants to achieve peace so his nation can grow rich selling automobiles and tractors.

That warlike past does need to be recognised, however. Modern charr may not be (all) stuck in the thinking of their ancestors, but their society has been structured along military lines throughout their recorded history, and they've only recently started to consider peace itself to be something worth fighting for.

They're a race that have been warmongers for pretty much all of their history...but one which is on the cusp of growing into something more if they can resist the efforts of Bangar and his ilk to keep them stuck in traditional ways of thinking. And I personally consider that to be a large part of their appeal. You don't need to whitewash their history for them to be awesome. What makes them truly awesome is their potential to _outgrow_ that history, to break out of that rut they've been stuck in for centuries.

Story-wise, the simplest way to do tengu might well be to retcon. Come up with some storyline where the Commander was actually an exiled tengu all along (when you're playing as a tengu) where the initial parts of the story are how you get exiled, and then it links to the main personal story after the 'join an order' step. Afterwards, do the same as you would if you were asura, charr, human, norn or sylvari, except as a tengu.

Personally, though, I'm not sure I'd make a tengu character unless a new profession shows up to combine with a new character. One character per profession is enough virtual mouths to feed for me.