draxynnic.3719

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Trigr.6481"

> > >

> > > Nope, no arguments here. Just a statement that is receiving more likes than your OP post.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Argument ad populum isn't a real argument either. Not that I'm taking either side.

>

> You're correct sir. Ad populum is not an argument but rather inarguable statistical data that indicates a popular opinion.

>

Popular opinion isn't always accurate, though, and there's that line about democracy being two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. When it comes to PvP nerfs, _every_ profession is the sheep: people who seriously play more than three professions in PvP at a time are probably few and far between, so _any_ PvP nerf is going to have more people who benefit from it than who are harmed by it.

Ironically, in fact, the cases where this isn't true are probably going to be the cases when the nerf was needed the most, when you think about it.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

> > >

> > > But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

> > > Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

> > >

> > > **Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

> >

> > Hammer has the problem of being borderline overpowered in WvW zergfights, while the nerfs it has received to get it under that line have rendered it pretty much nonexistent everywhere else outside of core revs and heralds in PvE who need a ranged weapon and have no other option. If you're only looking at it in the WvW context, you are looking at it in the only context where it is actually seen as a viable weapon.

> >

> > Look through the metabattle builds if you don't believe me. Now, I'm not claiming that metabattle is the be all and end all, but hammer is _literally nonexistent_ in revenant builds outside of WvW there. Power builds, condi builds, support builds... not one carries a hammer, unless swapped in for content where melee absolutely will not work. Even among the WvW builds, hammer is only present in those intended for large-scale engagements.

> >

> > Converting _some_ of the physical damage to bleed stacks could allow it to actually branch out without needing as many splits. It can be tuned so that as a pure power damage build, the expected damage is about the same or even higher, just with some of it coming out of a DoT effect rather than being an immediate spike. This would give it more counterplay in the WvW conditions in which it IS strong, which might allow it to be stronger overall.

> >

> > Heck, the current damage scaling that CoR has in WvW (which is lower than in PvE or sPvP) _might not even change at all_. Just have some free bleeds on top... if they're not cleansed before they have the chance to do much, that is (which is why the balancing team might be able to afford this: a zerg versus zerg fight has a high chance of conditions being cleansed by allies before they do much). For a more condition-oriented build in smaller-scale fighting, though, the hammer (which, as a reminder, is the ONLY ranged weapon available for non-renegede revenants) can at least do _something._

> >

> > Now, the optimal approach would probably be for ArenaNet to knuckle down and make a new weaponset altogether for core condition revenants. That's enough of a long shot that we should be considering other options, however.

>

> About rev being OP...

> Yes and no, u can aoe back some classes can overhwelm very easilly when stacked together.

> Rev is OP when stacked players 60%-70% of zerg/group are scourges with losts of aoe spam + barrier, and the other side dont have many scourges.

> Due how scourges stack for easy effort of sustain and aoe spam, rev is balanced.

>

> But that's how Anet wants players to leech from aoe spam, nothing can be done there.

As soon as you say "yes and no", isn't that pretty much conceding my statement of 'borderline overpowered'?

Zerg versus zerg fights are not something I get into much, so I'm mostly working off the rationale that has been given for the nerfs. Which finally culminated in CoR being split in WvW but not PvE or sPvP (an unusual combination, since normally the WvW version matches with either the sPvP version or the PvE version), but not before hammer had been hit with enough nerfs to pretty much wipe it from the meta outside of WvW.

Ultimately, the point is that saying that hammer is good in WvW is ignoring the fact that it's practically a meme weapon in every other environment, and on this basis, a buff that doesn't help much in WvW, but which does help in other environments, is probably a good way to go in lifting it out of meme status.

I note that the context here is less favoured professions where you're not going to the effort of unlocking both specialisations. On that basis, it's probably reasonable to give advice on the basis of "which elite specialisations have the most distinct playstyle from the base profession" (since if the base profession is one you don't enjoy, an elite specialisation that significantly changes the playstyle might be better than one that doesn't) and "which elite specialisations are relatively easy to learn" (since you're probably not looking to learn complicated mechanics on a rarely played profession). Oh, and with a general PvE focus (difficult group content will presumably be something that you'd do with your mains). On that basis, I'd probably be looking at the following:

Warrior: Berserker. In a PvE context, spellbreaker builds tend to play similarly to core warrior builds. Berserker, however, does change up the playstyle enough that if you don't enjoy base warrior much, you may find that you do enjoy the berserker.

Guardian: My gut feeling is saying firebrand - it's a bigger change over dragonhunter overall, and being able to basically spam Tome of Courage in circumstances that it's suited for is pretty awesome. It probably is a bit more complicated to play than dragonhunter, but the much bigger change in gameplay pulls it ahead in my mind.

Revenant: Depends on what you're planning to do, I think. If you're considering going condi, you might want to get Renegede just so that you do have access to a second condition-oriented weaponset (one of the problems with core revenants and heralds is that they only have one weaponset that really works with condition damage, being mace/axe). However, if you're just planning to kit the character out in power gear, than herald probably gives you more overall.

Ranger: I'm going to go with soulbeast on this one, largely because soulbeast is easier to get to grips with than druid. (If you don't like the pet, too, soulbeast gives you the ability to minimise how much pet control you need to do.)

Thief: I'd probably go with daredevil for thieves - the extra dodge (let alone the bonus effect on dodges) is very useful, and I think daredevils are better at dealing with groups in general. Furthermore, there's not really a lot that a deadeye can do in a PvE context that a pistol/pistol daredevil couldn't... except that the deadeye does it from longer range. (I'm not knocking on deadeye here, but I have to recognise that the deadeye theme is pretty much "does the same thing core thieves do, except with lower mobility and longer range".) If you do want that extra range, though, then deadeye could also work.

Engineer: Holosmith. Hands down. Holosmith plays very differently to a core engineer, while scrapper is... apart from the hammer and the gyros, not much different to being another core specialisation.

Necromancer: Scourge. Reaper balancing has made it progressively glassier over time, and while both are significant changes over the core profession, scourge is both more distinct and, I think, easier to play in the current context.

Mesmer: This is a close one. I'd probably say that mirage has the more distinct playstyle from core mesmer, but neither mesmer elite is really falling that far from the tree, and having Mirage Cloak instead of a regular dodgeroll can take some getting used to. Chronomancers are probably more forgiving, especially with things like shield, Well of Precognition, and more frequently available healing through Alacrity.

Elementalist: Tempest. Weaver is essentially taking the piano-like complexity of elementalist and turning it up to 11, and if elementalist isn't already one of your favoured professions, that's probably not what you're looking for. Tempest, on the other hand, has a different cadence, with less reliance on attunement-swapping every few seconds. If you're not already enthusiastic about elementalist mechanics, weaver probably isn't going to change your mind, but tempest _might._

I suspect that part of the reason we don't see nobles and the like representing the general populace is that those people aren't used to _actually_ having political power, and those that are politically active have probably thrown themselves behind the Sunspears or the Order of Shadows.

My expectation is this:

The Domain of Istan and Domain of Kourna are effectively under Sunspear and allied administration, in the aftermath of the events of chapters 1 and 3 respectively. (It's implied that the Great Hall and Champion's Dawn were liberated around the time we were there, and I doubt "Palawadan" would have held out through the period of confusion after Joko's death. Similarly, once Joko went down in Kourna, I suspect any of the surviving Awakened that didn't throw down their weapons were summarily dealt with.) It's possible that Purity and the Elon Riverlands went the same way: it's less clear since the ratio of rebels to Awakened in those areas is smaller, so it's possible that the disorientation was weaker among them. The Desolation proper, particularly the Bone Palace, is probably firmly in the Mordant Crescent's control, while Vabbi - which seems to be the reason where Joko was most accepted by the living populace - is likely divided.

The Sunspears and the Free Awakened will probably form a de facto alliance, since their goals are compatible, even if prejudice against Awakened remains among the lower-ranking Sunspears. The Order of Shadows will probably put its support behind this grouping, at least publicly. Given the indications we've seen that the Order of Shadows might not be entirely virtuous, though, I can see Kossan being used as a figurehead, while the rest of the Order works behind the scenes to destabilise any alliance sufficiently that the Order retains substantial political influence.

Utumishi and the loyalist faction seem content to keep their proverbial heads down, at least for the time being. I don't think they have any solid ambitions beyond wanting to form some sort of rump state where they can continue to be loyal to Joko, and even then, I think there's a degree of 'denial stage of mourning' in play.

The Mordant Crescent is probably the wildcard here. Iberu has shown a willingness to attempt to seize control, and while the Crescent in the Jahai Bluffs seem to have been largely cowed, there might be other commanders elsewhere who might attempt such a bid.

Splitting into de facto provinces is probably inevitable. Istan and Kourna will probably have the most in common (both seem to have suffered significantly under Joko, and thus will probably be most firmly in the Sunspear camp), but the water gap will likely mean that they are governed at least semi-independently. Vabbian culture and attitudes are probably sufficiently distinct that they'll be separate, but it's also the region with the most acceptance of Awakened, so I'd expect the Free Awakened to congregate in Vabbi. The Desolation will probably be pretty much exclusively Awakened, while Purity and the Riverlands are probably too distant to remain functionally part of Elona without a strong ruler to bridge the Desolation.

Best case scenario is that the Sunspears manage to form some sort of ruling council that is able to administer Elona as a single entity. Part of this could involve a project to re-divert the Elon back into its original course, evacuating Purity and Palawa's Grace into Elona proper. The Desolation becomes the Awakened homeland, Istan and Kourna become majority living-human, while Vabbi might be more evenly mixed.

Worst-case scenario is that Elona is split as the Mordant Crescent seize the Desolation. They may or may not seize Vabbi as well, or the Free Awakened might stand up to them in Vabbi, while Purity and the Riverlands might either be seized by the Crescent or become a de facto protectorate of Amnoon. Either way, in this scenario, Kourna and Vabbi go back to having the same food supply issues, and if these aren't somehow resolved, southern Elona might end up having to bend the proverbial knee to the Crescent all over again. That said, however, Kourna's living, food-consuming population is probably lower than it was at the time of Joko's takeover, and if the Tyrians decide to support Istan and Kourna, then it's possible that Kourna could be supplied by gate the way Ebonhawke was during the charr-human war.

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Nothing about the oath says "until death". The oath kills the oathtaker, so nothing suggests it'd go away after death. Keep in mind that while resurrection has been reduced to practically non-existent in modern GW2 time, when Livia was a normal person, and when she designed the oath, it was a relatively common magic.

> >

> > And the oath doesn't swear anyone to Kryta, or to its crown which is what the Shining Blade care about. The oath only prevents talking about classified Shining Blade intel to people not in the Shining Blade

>

> If the consequence is death and that consequence happens anyway I feel like it going away is very heavily implied.

Perhaps, but would you bet your life on it?

I think the overall resolution, though, will simply be that the Shining Blade still regards anything that would come under the oath as being on a need-to-know basis, so the only thing that the Commander knows and which the oath applies to is the plan to resurrect Lazarus in order to kill him. (Remember that Livia was worried about the Commander telling the world that she's still around, which implies that the Commander _can_ do so and the oath won't prevent it.)

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Pretty much this. Portal and Blink are all but stapled to competitive mesmer builds, so that leaves just one slot for another utility. If you're not getting condition cleanse out of your traits, and you're not running chronomancer to get it from Well of Eternity, that's your entire utility bar spoken for.

>

> Oh heaven forbid you have to use ONE utility skill for condi clear.

> Spellbreaker meta build uses TWO utility slots for condi clear/resistance. Featherfoot Grace AND Shake it Off.

> Core Medi Hammer Guard meta build uses TWO slots, Smite condition and contemplation of purity

> Firebrand mantra bunker meta build uses Contemplation of Purity

> Soulbeast uses Dolyak Stance

>

Yeah, those are really not equivalent.

First, because those professions don't already have multiple slots dedicated just to _doing their job._ While not as extreme as thieves, mesmers are, at the bottom line, a mobility profession. If they're not packing Portal and Blink, they're doing their team a disservice, especially if their team doesn't have a thief or other mobility profession to pick up the slack. Most professions are free to pick their utility skills according to what benefits them most in a battle - yes, they generally want to have a stunbreak or two and some condition removal in there, but they usually have some discretion to choose what to take to best suit their build and the current environment. Mesmers don't (although, to be fair, Blink does serve as a stunbreak and is reasonably useful in combat purposes as a result, so it's mostly Portal which is an obligatory mobility slot).

Second... those skills you've just listed are largely being taken because they have multiple uses, not just for condition removal. Featherfoot Grace and Shake it Off are both stunbreaks as well, and the former grants mobility as well. For guardian, Smite Condition adds significantly to your DPS as well while CoP is also a stunbreak and can generate a lot of boons for you, and that's before we even consider Monk's Focus which every sPvP guardian build has: speaking from experience of playing guardian, guardians don't _need_ that much condition removal (particularly since they also get condition removal from F2 and the Smiter's Boon trait), they take it because they can. Dolyak Stance is... oh, look, a stunbreak that provides stability and retaliation, including to your allies if traited.

Mesmer condition removal skills... don't manage to combine this many things into one package. Traited Signet of Midnight comes closest, but this comes back to making Inspiration indispensable again, and Arcane Thievery could probably work. But this still comes down to all of the utilities being spoken for with no room for anything that complements your specific build.

One disconnect here is that I think that when we say "distrust", you're taking this as being a stronger level of distrust than we are.

We're not talking about an 'all necromancers are evil' level of distrust, or even a 'you can't trust a necromancer' level of distrust.

Instead... let's consider an analogy. Let's say you've got someone with a habit of walking around with an Uzi on their belt.

If it's someone you know and trust as an individual, then it doesn't really matter to you that they have a habit of always having a sub-machine gun. You know they're not going to do the wrong thing with it.

If it's someone who you don't know... well, they're _probably_ not going to spontaneously pull it out and start shooting into the crowd. But you never know. It's a possibility. So unless you have nerves of steel, you're probably going to keep a wary eye on them and not get too close just in case.

Now, the same can be said of other spellcasters such as elementalists and mesmers: a point that Dougal makes, in fact. However, there is one distinction:

Necromancy, and necromancy-adjacent magics, have been used to do a lot of bad stuff in the Guild Wars universe. Palawa Joko, Khilbron, the Foefire, Zhaitan... and that's just the _big_ ones, there are plenty of less prominent examples of necromancers going bad. Additionally, while the ethical position regarding undead seems to be that necrominions are simply tools while binding a soul into an undead is an abomination, the common civilian probably isn't going to immediately recognise the difference between a necrominion and another kind of undead. Furthermore, even sanctioned forms of necromancy are still drawing power from death, and someone dealing with a necromancer who they don't know might well be thinking that said necromancer _might_ be considering what their life force might taste like or what form of minion the necromancer could make out of them (elementalists and mesmers get little benefit from killing people to experiment on their remains, after all). And even the most well-behaved necromancer is still a little creepy or even gruesome in the eyes of most.

Granted, elementalists and mesmers are also dangerous, but there isn't that weight of history behind them. A necromancer is like someone walking around with an Uzi in a place where there have been a few mass shootings lately, possibly even one in the last few days where the perpetrator got away with their identity still hidden. Other spellcasters, on the other hand, are more like someone walking around with an Uzi in a place where gun laws allow that but there is no history of shootings. Sure, they're technically just as dangerous, but there's no reason to think that they're actually going to do anything threatening.

All this means that it is certainly possible for a necromancer to prove themselves and raise to high positions - _especially_ in positions where having the skills of a necromancer are valuable and/or in organisations where necromancers are likely to dominate and people outside the organisation have little say in who gets promoted, such as the clergy-equivalent of death-related religious figures. However, for necromancers that have yet to achieve that beyond-reproach status, it's just that much harder to prove themselves when everybody's looking at you as possibly being the next Verata or Avarr, and cultural biases will discourage people from studying necromancy unless they're _really_ sure that's what they want to do.

And in all this, there's still the bottom line of: it's just not a combination we see often.

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"Noha.3749" said:

> > Powermirage will still be strong. "Same" amount of damage, but no stun through daze.

> > Elusive Mind will be replaced by IH, which is arguably stronger in alot of situations.

>

> That's kitten. The whole point of taking EM in a Power-Mantra shatter build was condi cleanse. Having *at least some form* of condi cleanse is mandatory for any competitive build.

>

> If you run EM you have that "some form". It's not the best cleanse, ofc, but still better than nothing.

> Which allows you some flexibility in your Utilities. In that case - Mantras.

>

> Now with IH people will have to take either Arcane Thievery, or Null Field.

> Instead of Mantras.

> Which kinda eliminates the point of mantra build, since you won't have a place for mantra, lol.

Pretty much this. Portal and Blink are all but stapled to competitive mesmer builds, so that leaves just one slot for another utility. If you're not getting condition cleanse out of your traits, and you're not running chronomancer to get it from Well of Eternity, that's your entire utility bar spoken for.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> @draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

>

> But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

> Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

>

> **Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

Hammer has the problem of being borderline overpowered in WvW zergfights, while the nerfs it has received to get it under that line have rendered it pretty much nonexistent everywhere else outside of core revs and heralds in PvE who need a ranged weapon and have no other option. If you're only looking at it in the WvW context, you are looking at it in the only context where it is actually seen as a viable weapon.

Look through the metabattle builds if you don't believe me. Now, I'm not claiming that metabattle is the be all and end all, but hammer is _literally nonexistent_ in revenant builds outside of WvW there. Power builds, condi builds, support builds... not one carries a hammer, unless swapped in for content where melee absolutely will not work. Even among the WvW builds, hammer is only present in those intended for large-scale engagements.

Converting _some_ of the physical damage to bleed stacks could allow it to actually branch out without needing as many splits. It can be tuned so that as a pure power damage build, the expected damage is about the same or even higher, just with some of it coming out of a DoT effect rather than being an immediate spike. This would give it more counterplay in the WvW conditions in which it IS strong, which might allow it to be stronger overall.

Heck, the current damage scaling that CoR has in WvW (which is lower than in PvE or sPvP) _might not even change at all_. Just have some free bleeds on top... if they're not cleansed before they have the chance to do much, that is (which is why the balancing team might be able to afford this: a zerg versus zerg fight has a high chance of conditions being cleansed by allies before they do much). For a more condition-oriented build in smaller-scale fighting, though, the hammer (which, as a reminder, is the ONLY ranged weapon available for non-renegede revenants) can at least do _something._

Now, the optimal approach would probably be for ArenaNet to knuckle down and make a new weaponset altogether for core condition revenants. That's enough of a long shot that we should be considering other options, however.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Eh... Where would you pit it? Deadly arts is general damage. And traps so far.

>

> Critical Strikes is for critical hits.

>

> Trickery is boons, initiative, and steal adjustment.

>

> Acrobatics is mostly thieves evasion and mobility.

>

> Shadow arts is sustainability which leeching venoms do. They're nice when you use venoms with some healing power.

I think the big issue is that pretty much the entire rest of the Shadow Arts tree is based off stealth, which doesn't synergise with a venom build at all. In fact, if you want to go full venoms, it's hard to get anything out of the other Shadow Arts traits at all. (Any stealth utility you might take would be a venom you can't take, and Leeching Venoms clashes with Hidden Thief, so your only other options to get stealth and make use of the Shadow Arts stealth traits are taking dagger/pistol, X/dagger, and/or Last Refuge.)

I could easily see it being put in Deadly Arts. DA is the poison-oriented traitline, so to me, a trait which buffs utility skills oriented towards applying poison to your weapons (and, incidentally, increasing the damage you deal with those envenomed weapons) seems entirely in flavour. It could potentially trade places with Revealed Training, which would fit with the stealth-oriented nature of Shadow Arts. (Yes, I realise that Revealed Training is about doing more damage when you're _no longer_ stealthed, but the most common reason for a thief to have Revealed is that they've just come out of stealth). The main problem there is that, without further reorganisation of traits, it makes Panic Strike the only Deadly Arts master trait that doesn't rely on taking a specific family of utility skills.

I think a weaker argument could be made for Trickery, since Trickery already has some degree of team support and Leeching Venoms would add to that. Hard to say what it might replace there, though. Potentially it could be buffed to grandmaster status and replace Bewildering Ambush, or even remain at master level and replace Pressure Striking: both are fairly rarely taken traits, and the builds that do take them probably wouldn't complain about losing them in exchange for better venoms.

The precedent for meditations in a GW2 context are guardians, which are a magical profession. A lot of the skill names are reminiscent of magical professions from GW1.

That said, the only really overt magic spellbreakers have is Full Counter (and even that has some plausible deniability), Bladestorm, Magebane Tether, and the effects that remove enemy boons. They're not trying to be mages, they're just looking to force mages to fight on their ground. They still have noticeably less magic than thieves, or either ranger elite specialisation.

I suspect mirage thrust was also in ArenaNet's sights with the confounding suggestions change. In the long run, I could see that being something that makes dazes from mesmers easier to balance overall: in its old form, every daze that mesmers could produce needs to be balanced according to the possibility that it will be a stun instead.

Your suggestion for changing Mantra of Distraction is a case in point. MoD isn't supposed to be an immobilise. It's an _interrupt_, one of the last remaining vestiges of the GW1 mesmer's style of interrupts. If it doesn't stop someone from doing what they're trying to do, _it's not doing what it's supposed to do._

Confounding Suggestions, however, turned an interrupt into a complete halt which has a high chance of being fatal if performed well. But it's not supposed to be an immobilise. It's supposed to be an interrupt.

In the case of Elusive Mind... I've gotta say, this feels like a boonsmiting to me. They don't know what to do with it, so they're making _darned_ sure it's not worth taking until they do come up with something.

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> And yeah it seems sad that Anet have given up on glamours, slowly removing pieces over the years and now they seem a bit... unloved. Apart from Portal which always has a place.

Honestly, I think this is the thing that annoys me the most. Feedback is pretty much permanently on my bar in PvE unless I'm pretty sure there won't be any projectiles to reflect - now, that doesn't mean that I was running the trait, but it'd be nice to at least have the _option_ to trait glamours.

Meanwhile, that new trait... picking on the weak like that really doesn't feel like a mesmer thing, and if it triggers based off numerical health rather than percentage health, than it's pretty much a useless trait in PvE.

> @"JTHMRulez.9378" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"JTHMRulez.9378" said:

> > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > >

> > > > As for norn disliking necormancy, this largely comes from one quest in Eye of the North: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avarr_the_Fallen This shows that the norn actually have a bit of a distaste for necromancers that use the corpses of others for their own gain. Probably a whole "spitting in the face of another's legend" or the like.

> > >

> > > That quest is hardly valid right now, however, as one of the big plot points for norn is that their culture has slightly changed thanks to what happened in the Far Shiverpeaks with Jormag. Before that, Bear was the main and most revered Spirit of the Wild. However after the actions taken by the rest of the Spirits they took a seat of precedence alongside Bear. It is undoubtfully that Necromancy may be seen as "creepy" but that doesn't mean Norn dislike it.

> >

> > Raven was always a major spirit, even if Bear got more screentime in GW1. His position didn't really change over the games. It was only Snow Leopard's.

> >

> > And think about it, how many norn necromancers NPCs does one even see in the game? I can think of only two: Raven's havroun and the hermit near Shadow Behemoth's spawn.

>

> I think the fact that Raven's Havroun, a position of inmense power and prestigue amongst norn who follow Raven (and even those who don't) is enough indicator that there is a strong association with Raven and Necromancy, as well as to say that Necromancers aren't all that strange or badly seen. Much less to the point of being so distrusted.

Most priests of Grenth are necromancers, and humans being disturbed by necromancers has been established multiple times in the franchise. Being a priest-equivalent of the Spirit of the Wild associated with death doesn't exactly say anything about the attitude of the norn towards necromancers in general, especially since havrouns aren't exactly chosen by popular vote.

And at the bottom line, the fact still remains that we don't see very many norn necromancers. Each one that's been mentioned follows the "only if there's a story reason for them to be a necromancer" rule.

> @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> The only thing I struggle with is some of the Revenant legends: I can imagine any of the five races invoking Glint, and most of them invoking Jalis and Ventari - but I find it hard to imagine a non-human deciding to invoke Shiro, or anyone at all invoking Mallyx the Unyielding...

Revenant is an interesting case: intuitively, for instance, I would expect charr to be the most anti-revenant, since the allied charr legions are all about having independence from supernatural entities and revenant is about, well, channeling the power of supernatural entities. The fact that Rytlock was the first seems to have ameliorated it, but I was expecting Rytlock coming back as a revenant to have more of an effect on his standing among the legions than them just wanting to get his story.

From an intuitive basis, I'd expect norn and humans to probably be the most interested in being revenants (core revenants, anyway).

Norn have their attitude of the legend being more important than whether the entity is viewed as a hero or villain, or even _who's_ legend it is. Revenant legends are all entities that have had such an impact that their legend has been mirrored in the Mists: I can easily see norn going "I want a piece of that!" and becoming revenants.

For human revenants, I see it as mostly being a "reverence of Kormir" thing. Worshippers of Kormir might see wrestling with the echo of Mallyx as a holy rite, leading to better understanding of the trials that Kormir faced.

For other races... in a lot of cases, it probably comes down to a question of practicality. Sylvari are curious, so they might feel pulled towards assuming legends outside what you would normally expect a sylvari to be drawn to purely to satisfy that curiosity. Ventari would naturally be popular, and the heroism of Jalis and Glint, but I could also see the fallen hero of Shiro as being of interest to the Arthurian-mythos-inspired sylvari. Post-Mordremoth, they might even feel a certain kinship with Shiro, once a hero, but manipulated into becoming a villain.

An asura historian might have a similar attitude, or a scholar focusing on the Mists might become a revenant as a means of studying the Mists firsthand, and every legend is a new point of data, however distasteful that legend's actions might have been in life.

A charr revenant channeling Mallyx or even Shiro might even take a certain grim satisfaction in the irony chaining to his or her will the echoes of beings that were once generals of the god who used the charr as puppets... or they might just view it through a lens of pure practicality.

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> > Necromancer, probably.

> >

> > What you see is what you get: some poor bloke in a light robe trying to run at you but he can't because he's rooted to the ground. When you attack him you always do damage, no silly invulnerability passives or stealth shenanigans, there might be an occasional teleport, but usually only once... Maybe there's a few additional health-pools here and there, but otherwise... You fight him and for every good honest hit you make, you see his health go down, but if you let him close he'll do nasty things to you. Straightforward. Most of them in WvW seem to have a serious lack of stability as well, so any control effects you have are likely to land true.

> >

> > I love Necromancers.

>

> Pretty good summary and people still want necro in PvP to be nerfed xD

Scourge was certainly broken on release.

Now, though? Scourge and reaper both can mess you up if given the opportunity, but they're high-impact, low-sustain builds. Focus on them and avoid fighting on their terms, and they're not too hard to take down.

A lot of people tend to have what I refer to as balance perception inertia, though: once something is perceived as overpowered, people will continue to perceive it as being overpowered until it reaches a point where it's clearly _under_-powered.

> @"Wuna.7809" said:

> Ah okay, do you have to use e-specs or are core ones viable? The longbow spec seems fun. I’m thinking I might be all or nothing regarding magic with warrior and ranger. If I’m forced to use magic a little and it really feels like magic with the warrior then I’ll probably go ranger.

Honestly, if you're okay with how core warrior longbow works, you should be fine with Berserker. Berserker basically takes what's already present in the longbow skills and runs with it.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> @draxynnic.3719 we already have mace and shortbow for that :\ (imo it is fine as it is Anet is awfull at balance, it would actually kill the current damage or would be OP when on hybrid builds).

>

>

> What kind of condis u think hammer should have??

> Can u really imagine condi ticks on CoR????

Revenant doesn't have mace and shortbow. _Renegede_ does.

A weapon that is locked behind a specialisation doesn't fix the problem, because the problem is going to recur with every new specialisation that comes out. The problem still exists for core revenants and heralds, and will exist for any new elite specialisation that doesn't bring its own condition weapon.

As for which condis, some possibilities include:

1) Something like Trident, where each Hammer Bolt inflicts a condition based off the legend being used.

2) Coalescence of Ruin losing some direct damage in exchange for inflicting Bleeding stacks (a common trait for "smash the ground"-type attacks if you look at the Elementalist).

3) Confusion on Drop the Hammer (would need to last longer than the knockdown, of course!)

4) Making Hammer Bolt part of a chain which allows the hammer auto to attack more often than once every 1.25 seconds, allowing for better synergy with Rampant Vex.

My preference would probably be a mix of #2 and #4 or even just #2, but those are all possibilities.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

>

> I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

Because revenant is a profession with weaponswap. While I know people do the 'duplicate set' trick to trigger traits and sigils, the primary idea behind weaponswapping is to have the versatility of having two sets. The design of weapons for such professions reflects this (the reason why revenant didn't work as a non-weaponswapping profession is largely because the revenant's weapons weren't designed accordingly: elementalist weapons, for instance, have a versatility that goes beyond just what comes out of attunement-swapping, while revenant sets are fairly specialised).

Every other profession with weaponswap apart from revenant has at least two sets that work regardless of whether they're running power or condition (guardian's relationship with condition damage is an interesting one as it mostly comes from Justice and utilities, but guardian does benefit from a number of weapons that can inflict multiple strikes quickly and thus maximise passive Justice procs). Mesmer, for instance, can carry staff and scepter/X for condition damage*, and sword and greatsword (and arguably the increasingly hybrid scepter) for power builds.

Revenant doesn't have this... likely because when it was originally designed, it wasn't a weaponswapping profession and didn't need to. None of the revenant's weaponsets apart from mace/axe have any damaging conditions without adding traits to the mix, while sword, being the least bad option, is the only one that really synergises well with those traits thanks to fast attacks for Rampant Vex and lots of chill through Precision Strike.

*I'm aware that condition mesmers in PvP environments often take sword/X regardless, for the defensive capabilities and because they can still get decent condition applications through shatters. However, mesmers who do this are doing so because they choose to, not because they're forced to through the lack of better alternatives, as condition revenants are.

Spellbreaker is essentially tapping into mesmer anti-magic abilities.

Berserker is... well, it really depends on the build. A lot of the berserker skills do appear to be tapping into elemental magic, specifically fire and earth, although it's questionable whether they're consciously doing so. However, they're still fairly physical in nature, and the theme is generally more one of an over-the-top barbarian hero than a spellcaster. I recall some games from the 80s, and Hexen from the 90s, which had protagonists that were big beefy barbarian-types which could nevertheless gain the ability to throw fireballs using a magic sword or something like that: the berserker feels more like an updated incarnation of that archetype.

Spellbreaker is essentially the "I'm fed up of those cheating magic-users so I'm going to figure out how to counter their magic and force them to fight on my level, even if it means learning some magic myself" archetype.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > besides the shadowstepping, this sounds like something you could accomplish by taking blood magic (which already is a vampiric themed traitline) and curses as a necro.

> > >

> > > the theme makes no sense on thief, and no "they can shadowstep" doesn't mean it fits

> > >

> > > all by all i'm unconvinced

> >

> > There is a lot of precedent actually: Leeching Venoms explicitly creates lifesteal, and then you have a variety of effects that are basically "gain health when you harm others", such as Signet of Malice, Skelk Venom, Mug, and Invigorating Precision. It fits so well, in fact, that I'm not sure the proposal would be adding anything that doesn't already exist.

>

> from a purely mechanical standpoint it makes sense but from a thematic standpoint it doesn't. (i'm gonna use movie genres as a comparison) thief thematicly is more an action b movie or thriller while while necro is more a horror themed class. movies where vampires are the focus tend to be horror (or they're used as a monster) or at the very least have gothic aestetical elements associated with them.

I see where you're coming from there, but I'm not sure I entirely agree: you can have horror based around the lurking foe hiding in the shadows which is never where you think it is, but you know it's around and looking to catch you offguard. Thief fits for that.

Besides, mixing themes is one of the things that can be done with elite specialisations.

That said, though, 'vampire' probably should be more of a necromancer thing than a thief thing overall. Or possibly a revenant thing, if ArenaNet comes up with a legendary vampire to fuel it, although Shiro already comes close to that.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> besides the shadowstepping, this sounds like something you could accomplish by taking blood magic (which already is a vampiric themed traitline) and curses as a necro.

>

> the theme makes no sense on thief, and no "they can shadowstep" doesn't mean it fits

>

> all by all i'm unconvinced

There is a lot of precedent actually: Leeching Venoms explicitly creates lifesteal, and then you have a variety of effects that are basically "gain health when you harm others", such as Signet of Malice, Skelk Venom, Mug, and Invigorating Precision. It fits so well, in fact, that I'm not sure the proposal would be adding anything that doesn't already exist.

Between Bountiful Theft and Larcenous Strike, thieves are already probably better at boonstealing than mesmers - mesmers have more boonrip in general, but apart from Arcane Thievery it just removes the boon altogether rather than stealing it.

Doesn't mean there can't be room for more, though, kinda like how chronomancer was mostly enhancing things the mesmer already had (even if I do think there's a bit of guardian in chronomancer).

> @"JTHMRulez.9378" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> > As for norn disliking necormancy, this largely comes from one quest in Eye of the North: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avarr_the_Fallen This shows that the norn actually have a bit of a distaste for necromancers that use the corpses of others for their own gain. Probably a whole "spitting in the face of another's legend" or the like.

>

> That quest is hardly valid right now, however, as one of the big plot points for norn is that their culture has slightly changed thanks to what happened in the Far Shiverpeaks with Jormag. Before that, Bear was the main and most revered Spirit of the Wild. However after the actions taken by the rest of the Spirits they took a seat of precedence alongside Bear. It is undoubtfully that Necromancy may be seen as "creepy" but that doesn't mean Norn dislike it.

>

>

Ghosts of Ascalon shows that the attitude still remains.

It is worth noting, however, that there is nothing actively _preventing_ norn from becoming necromancers (maybe they're less magically proficient as a culture, but that's hard to say for sure). Norn don't like the idea of they or people they know being animated as minions, but since norn don't believe in guilt by association, a norn necromancer who _doesn't_ do that would be fine. Avarr was a bounty target because he _did_.

Numbers, however, are an indicator. ArenaNet has indicated that while they don't put restrictions on PCs, they know that certain race/profession combinations are more common than others and account for this in NPC placement, with the lowest category being 'only use this combination if you have a reason for it'. The rarity of norn necromancers seems to indicate that they're in that category.

(Note that it's not a perfect indicator, since we do know that there are things that exist that aren't shown ingame. Like Seraph who aren't heavy armour professions.)

Without agreeing with the OP's premise, I think I have an answer to the questions of why this is being brought up now:

Because Elixir S (the utility, not Self-Regulating Defences) has come back into the meta, so it's being seen more often as a method of safe stomping rather than being there as a means of delaying the engineer's death.

As people have said, it doesn't matter which of your characters the items are account-bound to.

You may still consider trying to spread them out if you actually have any intent to use the items, but otherwise, you can feel free to get them on any character and then dispose of them once you've received credit for the collection.