draxynnic.3719

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it. > > We could get a Revenant elite specialization that focusses on Weapon Spells or on Ashes. > Both could feel as "close" to Ritualist as Renegade does. > Not, that Renegade feels anywhere close to it. > > But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits. > > Spirits were the main mechanic. Urns and weapon spells were something you'd _sometimes_ have one or two of, while it was the rare build that didn't have at least one spirit without shooting itself in the foot, and some builds were pretty much all spirits or spirit-supporting skills. Meanwhile, a hypothetical 'urn revenant' or 'weapon spell revenant' would have half their bar of them, because that's how revenant _works._ It'd then spend roughly half it's time flipping over to a core legend, which means either a melee-oriented legend or Ventari, _because that's how revenant works._ And it wouldn't have access to spirits, unless you count Ventari's Tablet as a spirit, because that's how ~~revenants~~ _elite specialisations_ work. So unless you want an elite specialisation designed to work with Ventari, which means yet another support elite specialisation... Ashes and weapon spells worked through having one or two of them on your build mixed with other things. That was one of the main themes of ritualist - exploiting synergies between different skill types. Renegade could be seen as a reasonable approximation to a spirit ritualist, but squeezing every urn or weapon spell onto one bar is completely missing the point (let alone raising the question of how such a thing would even work translated into GW2 mechanics. Would we be looking at a legend with the equivalent of five conjures or five kits? Don't you think that would be a little bit silly?). In order to actually replicate how they were used in GW1, they should be on a profession with a normal utility bar, so you _can_ take just one or two rather than committing to an entire legend. Revenant is its own thing. Yes, it has a thematic similarity to ritualists in that it connects to the Mists, but it's fundamentally a heavy-armour profession rather than a scholar profession (with all that implies) and its method of channeling a single powerful legend is very different to ritualist invoking multiple lesser spirits (whether by binding them to weapons or pots, or simply to the ground). Kalla was the nod to the common power source, giving revenant a spirit-spammer-esque playstyle (that which is certainly most strongly associated with ritualist). Now it's time for revenant to go back to exploring its _own_ potential rather than trying to copy something that it can never be. But people need to stop reducing Revenants to substitute Ritualists.

> @"otto.5684" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > Not all classes are optimal with elite weapons, especially for pve. > > > > > > DH, does not use LB. > > > Warrior uses axe/axe mostly all across, except for condi berserker. > > > Power rev uses S/S. Both elites. > > > Eng has flexibility. > > > Soul beats uses GS and axe/axe. Actually, I do not think daggers see much play anywhere. > > > Chrono uses sword/sword. Support still uses the shield though. > > > > > > It is not bad. I more concerned with weapons that absolutely suck in pve. > > > > To be fair, spellbreakers often do use daggers, especially in PvP, there are some power and condi renegade builds that primarily use shortbow, and soulbeast dagger is fairly popular on condi soulbeasts nowadays. None of these are cases of being clearly optimal, though, just good with specific builds. > > And that is good. Not that I think that a specific elite weapon being optimal with most of a that elite builds is a bad thing. It is not a persuasive issue like the OP made it. Which is pretty much what I was thinking when I came into the thread, before I actually read the OP. Despite the title coming across as fairly expansive, the OP does seem pretty focused on mirage. Where... it's kinda hard to say that mirage axe isn't the best weapon they have, at least for condi builds. On the other hand, though, that's largely because mirage axe is the only melee condi weapon that mesmer has, and melee weapons are generally expected to have either higher DPS or better defensive qualities than ranged weapons. Power mirage also doesn't work very well in boss fights, since the sword and greatsword ambush skills are oriented more towards control or area damage respectively than maximising DPS against a single target. Scepter could possibly work, but that's a hybrid weapon to begin with. Mind you, this is primarily an instanced PvP issue, which largely makes it a boss fight issue. Something has to be the best DPS weapon for boss fights, and it makes sense for axe to be mirage's best weapon under those circumstances for the reasons outlined above.

> @"Svennis.3852" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > Zojja gets a very brief mention in Champions, which implies that she's still... not well, to say the least. > > I can’t remember any mention of her. Any quotes you can provide? ...huh. I went to the wiki, and the line appears to be missing there. Probably because it's easy to miss since it triggers pretty much as soon as you load into Rata Sum. I'll have to go through my screenshots and see if I can get the exact quote, but Rytlock comments when you first arrive at Rata Sum near the start of 'Truce' (before the conversation with Gorrik) that he hasn't been in Rata Sum for a while, and the context is 'Zojja'. The voice acting implies that it's a case of being a reminder of something he doesn't want to be reminded of, suggesting that Zojja is dead, still comatose, or otherwise in a bad way. (Which is curious, because back in HoT, Zojja showed more signs of having resisted Mordremoth than Logan did... but perhaps that's the problem. She fought harder and it took more out of her as a result.)

Zojja gets a very brief mention in Champions, which implies that she's still... not well, to say the least. Canach has probably finally collected his winnings and has been living the high life in Elona for a while.

> @"otto.5684" said: > Not all classes are optimal with elite weapons, especially for pve. > > DH, does not use LB. > Warrior uses axe/axe mostly all across, except for condi berserker. > Power rev uses S/S. Both elites. > Eng has flexibility. > Soul beats uses GS and axe/axe. Actually, I do not think daggers see much play anywhere. > Chrono uses sword/sword. Support still uses the shield though. > > It is not bad. I more concerned with weapons that absolutely suck in pve. To be fair, spellbreakers often do use daggers, especially in PvP, there are some power and condi renegade builds that primarily use shortbow, and soulbeast dagger is fairly popular on condi soulbeasts nowadays. None of these are cases of being clearly optimal, though, just good with specific builds.

> @"necromaniac.7629" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"necromaniac.7629" said: > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > Problem is that when running solo, they don't have the ability to self-buff and deal damage solo that other professions have. > > > this not true though > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looking at power boon chrono... it's basically Quickness and a little bit of Alacrity. It generates a little bit of Might on charging a mantra, but that doesn't last long unless you need to recharge the mantra, and that isn't exactly recommended play. You can get Fury on your phantasms, but not on yourself. You can adjust your build to get these things, but it involves making sacrifices. > > > > Compare this to, say, Reaper, which can get high might, high vulnerability on target, 100% crit chance, and quickness fairly conveniently. > > > > The flipside, though, is that because all the stuff Reaper has is already part of its power budget, it does well solo, but doesn't benefit much from having allies giving out boons and inflicting vulnerability on its behalf. While mesmers really shine in that environment, because they're suddenly swimming in boons that otherwise have significant opportunity costs for them, while potentially still adding a party boon or two to the group themselves. > > > > Another consideration is that getting high mesmer DPS usually involves using Signet of the Ether to recharge phantasms, which you can generally get away with in an organised group where you have a dedicated healer to keep you topped up, but can be risky playing solo. Most professions aren't put in the position of having to decide between using their heal skill to do damage or to keep it in reserve for when they need it for healing, so they can afford to do the latter. > > > > Which all adds up to mean that mesmers have a bigger gap between raid performance and solo performance than... well, at least SOME other professions. I haven't done the analysis for every single profession, it's possible this isn't exclusively a mesmer issue. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply (or at least not as strongly) to any of the heavy professions, and necromancers have the opposite issue of being really strong solo (or solo with a healer for reapers in competitive modes) but not benefiting much from boons in raid scenarios. > You can get perma 25might, fury and quickness easy by simply going illusions dueling, the only downside of chrono is that its harder to have100% crit chance uptime compared to other classes, also, adjusting your build for solo is not a "sacrifice" Mesmer definitely doesn't have the biggest gap between solo and raid performance, you atleast need knowledge of what you're trying to solo and the spec itself, and if you can't solo on chrono just go mirage easy, how can you say mesmer has one of the biggest raid vs solo gaps when mirage-the best solo spec, exists? I'd call that making sacrifices. I'd presume you're running 2-2-1 on Illusions to pull that off (although Pack runes can also help as long as you open with a phantasm), but in the process you've given up Domination, which is normally a good source of damage boosts, for power builds at least. I also don't see this approach being taken in competitive modes, and when I was talking about "solo", I was thinking about sPvP and WvW roaming (where you usually can't rely on getting big boon stacks from allies, especially on roamer builds) as well as open world/story. Note that making a sacrifice does not mean that you can't come out better off in the end for the content you're doing - this is kinda the point of altering builds, sacrificing one thing for something else that is hopefully going to serve you better - but you certainly can't take a raid build into a solo environment with little or no modification and expect it to perform. Which is not to say that I think mesmer is bad in solo environments, but it usually shines for reasons other than pure DPS, as opposed to raids where power chrono is the highest benchmark at the moment.

> @"Lonami.2987" said: > > I think guardian would be fine, we already saw monks and ritualists wearing heavy armor during Winds of Change: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zei_Ri > > Even more, the Sea of Sorrow novels explains guardians came from mixing monk, ritualist, and paragon arts. Technically speaking, it was an outfit. Ministry of Purity monks and ritualists still had lower armour than the melee professions. But yeah. > @"Elric.4713" said: > > That was way before the Revenant was introduced into the game. And in-game lore > books. > Nothing in the in-game lore contradicts it, though, and there ARE aspects of guardians skills that are more likely to have come from ritualist than any other profession. And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it.

There is an implicit assumption here that the other Elder Dragons aren't insane in their own ways. We have a pretty clear indication that excess magic can drive anyone insane - dragons appear to have a higher capacity than most, but it doesn't mean they're immune. Aurene's whole MO is that she shares and redistributes magic continuously rather than trying to hoard it, so she never has as much magic personally at any given time compared to the others. In Kralkatorrik's case we saw the insanity directly, but working through the other dragons - Zhaitan thought he was the cure for death. Mordremoth seemed to believe he WAS the world. The whole Truce arc seems to be demonstrating that Primordus is striking somewhat randomly to cause destruction for the sake of destruction, without any apparent regard for strategy (Taimi pointing out that "Destroyers do not show reason" when the boss destroyer of the Metrica Province region moves AWAY from the Rata Sum gate, for instance). Jormag seems to be the most put-together, but shows distinct signs of dark triad personality traits. Regarding Jormag and Primordus absorbing new magic types: a possible explanation is that, unlike Kralkatorrik, Primordus and Jormag realised that it was unhealthy for them to absorb the conflicting magics themselves. So, in order to benefit from that magic without absorbing it themselves, they dumped it into their minions. Phlunt's hypothesis also isn't the first time there's been a suggestion that Elder Dragons might be able to convert magic over time from other forms into their own, so it's also certainly possible that while Jormag and Primordus were hibernating, they had the opportunity to essentially metabolise the foreign magics.

> @"necromaniac.7629" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > Problem is that when running solo, they don't have the ability to self-buff and deal damage solo that other professions have. > this not true though > > > Well, looking at power boon chrono... it's basically Quickness and a little bit of Alacrity. It generates a little bit of Might on charging a mantra, but that doesn't last long unless you need to recharge the mantra, and that isn't exactly recommended play. You can get Fury on your phantasms, but not on yourself. You can adjust your build to get these things, but it involves making sacrifices. Compare this to, say, Reaper, which can get high might, high vulnerability on target, 100% crit chance, and quickness fairly conveniently. The flipside, though, is that because all the stuff Reaper has is already part of its power budget, it does well solo, but doesn't benefit much from having allies giving out boons and inflicting vulnerability on its behalf. While mesmers really shine in that environment, because they're suddenly swimming in boons that otherwise have significant opportunity costs for them, while potentially still adding a party boon or two to the group themselves. Another consideration is that getting high mesmer DPS usually involves using Signet of the Ether to recharge phantasms, which you can generally get away with in an organised group where you have a dedicated healer to keep you topped up, but can be risky playing solo. Most professions aren't put in the position of having to decide between using their heal skill to do damage or to keep it in reserve for when they need it for healing, so they can afford to do the latter. Which all adds up to mean that mesmers have a bigger gap between raid performance and solo performance than... well, at least SOME other professions. I haven't done the analysis for every single profession, it's possible this isn't exclusively a mesmer issue. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply (or at least not as strongly) to any of the heavy professions, and necromancers have the opposite issue of being really strong solo (or solo with a healer for reapers in competitive modes) but not benefiting much from boons in raid scenarios.

Broadly speaking, mirage greatsword wasn't really intended for boss fights in general, since the point of the ambush skill is to split damage across multiple targets (and targets between you and those targets, and all the targets your clones can hit). It really shines for fighting groups. Greatsword mesmers going into boss fights usually run chrono instead.

Yeah, different degrees of specialisation is probably a better way of putting it. The PC has to keep themselves ready to cope with any situation they might deal with, so they can't afford to focus on doing one specific thing really well like someone who has a well-defined role as part of a military unit can. (It is worth noting that the White Mantle Mesmer trick is supposed to be more or less equivalent to what PC chronomancers do with Continuum Split, the White Mantle Mesmers just seem to be a little better at it.) With respect to the named characters, I think it is worth remembering that those named NPCs are supposed to be, if not equals to the PC, than at least _peers._ Thus, it stands to reason that there'd be some things they can do that a PC of the same profession can't, and vice versa.

Yeah, I don't think there is such a distinction between a 'real' mesmer or guardian or warrior(!) or anything. What there _is,_ however, is distinctions between those that are highly skilled (like the PC) and those who are not so skilled. An NPC who just uses a handful of skills from a profession is still a member of that profession, they're just a less skilled member of that profession.

> @"Xaylin.1860" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Xaylin.1860" said: > > > The reason we still see baseline Guardians is mostly due to baseline traitline interactions, not due to e-spec trade-offs. > > > > Which is one of the things I've been facepalming about with the whole 'tradeoff' thing for years now. The core traitline you _could_ have otherwise had is the biggest tradeoff of all. > > > > Well, I partly agree/disagree. Designing Elites to have trade-offs is as valid has having the loss off classic traitlines as trade-offs. However, this requires consistent design (philosophie) and implementation across all classes. And that's what ANet isn't good at, it seems. Still, I think we can agree, that Elite traitlines offer more than just traits (weapons, new skills/mechanics). So from a pure balance standpoint, overall traits would have to be worse or at least have worse interaction with the baseline class if you didn't want to implement any obvious trade-offs. Meaning, true sidegrades, not upgrades. I guess the issue with this approach is, that it's less fun when releasing add ons. > > Amusingly, with the exception of former Elusive Mind all Mirage traits are and always have been pretty bad. So you would think it could work without a specific trade-off. Joke's on baseline Mesmer. While I still love the theme of Mirage, it's probably the messiest Elite implementation we've got. Not the most boring, mind you. But certainly the worst. Yeah, that's kinda the problem. Baseline mesmer has been nerfed so hard that... well, it's not baseline guardian, put it that way. I'm not saying that putting in explicit tradeoffs isn't a valid approach to balancing core versus elites, but I think it _is_ important to keep in mind that the opportunity cost of a third traitline _is_ part of the tradeoff. Ultimately, there's a degree to which the ultimate test of whether there are sufficient tradeoffs for a profession is not to theorycraft about the value of elite specialisation mechanics versus core mechanics, but to look at how much core as actually being played. Core guardian seems to be being played a lot more than core of other professions - this suggests to me that guardian is not the profession that should be being looked at for tradeoffs. Beyond that, with professions where that _isn't_ the case, there's two broad approaches: nerfing the elite spec or buffing core. Which to do is probably a matter of whether the profession as a whole is overperforming or underperforming. If the profession as a whole is underperforming and core isn't being used, I think there'd good value in buffing one of the underutilised core traitlines (for mesmer, I'd be primarily looking at Inspiration and Chaos) so that taking that third core traitline actually starts looking like a viable option again.

> @"Fipmip.7219" said: > > @"hugo.4705" said: > > I like those kind of subjects putting things in perspective. To me, after reading op post, I don't think the battlefield would look like a simple ww2 trenches and this is why: > > > > Compared to real life, you have spells, protective magic shields protecting against projectile and some making you invulnerable for short time. Make a duo of a guardian and a warrior as example, those two honna rush the field, one protecting both from projectiles and the other will then once enough close ise its invulnerability to slaughter foes... kek. > > > > About the races themselves, I do think that norn/human/sylvari are weaker than the two others races: Charrs have most of the machinery and asura the technology. > > > > The personnal story has proven those two races are quite ingenious and good at inventing weapons: Mind controlled golem, an anti ghost rifle, inventing airships, holograms warriors, scrap cannons, charr tanks and cars, light cannon... > > If we want to be realistic, it is shown that asura can have personnel protective magnetic force field, that they know about holo walls or barriers, and golems. So basically they can make several squads of shock troops equiped with personnal holo shield, they could even be invincible: put a shield generator mounted on a moving platform toward the enemies and you can reach them without dying. Regarding charrs, the sylvari could prepare their hounds or oakheart, human their mages and soldiers and norn taking their spirit form; they all gonna be eliminated in a second by charrcopter, charr mortars and cannons, charr assault car or charrzookas. > > > > The most "epic" and lasting fight would happens between charr and asura. Human would be basically heavy fixed siege engines and spells, very easy to eliminate with a ranged bombs rain through copters or shot by light cannons. > > Sylvari are trees peoples, putting fire on the battlefield will throw them out of the competition. > > Norns may have help from the spirits, they will only be good at holding their positions: Ballistas rows protected by raven or any spirits. > > > > That whole thing to say, both army can rush toward the other by using protection spell. But if using spells in backlines, it is technically an infinte neverending war. > > But I will asume that spellcasters use their mental and will run out of forces rapidly: So basically each camp have to rush toward the other before the backforces are anhilated, so constant fight at middle, continuous one without respite. > > There is no need to hide behind dirt piles, just ask a mage to call a protective shield. > > > > Other techniques? Invisibility is impossible, ash legion too much good at detecting invisible presence, asura scanners detecting anything. > > > > Flying to bypass and attack from behind? Any flying machine would easily bypass catapults or mortars. But not head seeking charrzooka missiles or lasers. > > > > About siege machines, only charr and asura can make their ways in them and arrive toward opposite army. > > > > Teleportation? Mesmers, necro and thiefs in any races, but asura have teleportation gun and turrets they can even build a gate to arrive where they want. > > > > One of my big question, is that if such a war happens, assuming that waypoints exist, would they all be turned off during war, would the asura help the army offering more for aftermatch? Teleporting behind foes first lines through armies can decide to destroy them in case off. > > > > I'd like to point out that classes like warrior, guardian, etc. seem to follow the DnD design in which only a select few powerful individuals actually meet the requirements to be classed in such a way. Most people, e.g. the npcs you fight, are a sort of lesser version of these archetypes, and are simple mercenaries, guards, troops, traders, and so on. Only heroes like the player are the actual real deal. I'll admit this isn't something that is explicitly clarified, and there isn't much in the way of gameplay to differentiate other powerful npcs like rytlock and marjory from enemies, but it seems implied from the few times we see scripted abilities from characters other than the player. in any case, it's probably not feasible to recruit things like squads of guardians or armies of deadeyes. > > I would encourage you to read my other posts in the thread as well as some others, as the point of discussion has moved past most of what you have said. I don't think this is actually the case. From what we see in both games, and the books and other underlying fluff, members of spellcasting professions are actually reasonably common in military service, at least among humans. For instance, in Drizzlewood Coast alone, we see several Seraph Mesmers casually maintaining portals in tactically useful positions, and the map is dotted with Dominion Snipers. Now, there's certainly going to be variations in actual level of skill - the PC is supposed to be one of the strongest fighters on Tyria, and the average Seraph mesmer or Dominion sniper is not going to be on the same level as a PC mesmer or deadeye. On the other hand, there are certainly some floating around that are quite powerful, even before the associated specialisation was available to PCs, such as the Pale Reavers. Such variance in individual ability is, I think, part of what keeps the norn relevant - while for a figure at the stature of the Pact Commander their race isn't a significant influence in their strength, the lifestyle of the norn means that the _average_ norn is significantly stronger than the average strength of other races. Consider that, among the norn, accessing their racial elite skills is considered a fairly normal thing, while for a lot of other races, it's probably considered exceptional to have access to elite skills _at all._ Re: @"hugo.4705" - I don't think it actually follows that asura and charr are clearly the most powerful races militarily. (Charr probably are, but humans seem to be close enough to be able to stalemate them.) With the asura specifically, they certainly have the most powerful magitech, but I think there are three things holding them back: 1) Most of their magitech is essentially hand-made, rather than being industrially produced like the charr do. This hinders their ability to out-produce an enemy. 2) The asura don't really have an organised military like the charr, humans, and (arguably) sylvari do, instead having a few groups that are essentially armed police backed by golems (and see #1). 3) From ingame observation, while asura produce a lot of magitech, they don't seem to have many spellcasters who are _individually_ powerful like humans, sylvari, and occasionally norn do. When you run into a particularly dangerous asura, what _usually_ makes them dangerous is the golem suit they're in or some other technology rather than their magical power as an individual. This fits with comments that ArenaNet have made that asura have a very scientific approach to magic, while humans and other races have a more intuitive approach - asura were the first race to really embrace magitech, but they might not actually be as innately talented with magic as some other races (not that they'd ever admit it) - their scientific approach, in fact, might be in part a response to this. Asura have a higher proportion of spellcasters compared to most races (probably largely coming from their robust education system), but they don't tend to produce individuals that can shake the world through sheer magical prowess. The first two would probably be solved if the Inquest took over (although there would be other costs, likely including a certain stifling of innovation as the Inquest assumes direct control), while the third... may be a racial limitation. Historically, the big contest has been between charr machinery and human magic. In this respect, I think you're miscategorising humans as being a 'static' force. They'll set up siege engines when it's tactically valuable to do so, but compared to the charr, humans seem to excel at more mobile operations, as seen in Drizzlewood and as referred to in descriptions of how Ebonhawke survived the siege (short form - the Vanguard got _very_ good at setting out and destroying charr siege engines before they could do significant damage to the walls). Magic means access to heavy firepower that doesn't require more than bringing a mage with the right skills, reinforcements that don't require more than access to a few bodies, invisibility (experience in hearts and such show it isn't perfect, but you still need to be fairly close to be caught with it, whether by an Ash Legion sentry or an asura security golem), shields that can at least provide a temporary defence against enemy fire, and portals to get out of dodge in a hurry (noting that the in-game limitations of where you can portal to don't seem to apply to NPC mesmers). In a static fight where the asura or charr have the opportunity to get their war machines into position, the more primitive siege weapons of humans would put them at a disadvantage (although humans HAVE been advancing in this respect, and they're supposed to be the best of the races at building fortifications... the fortifications of DR and Ebonhawke are actually pretty ridiculous when you compare them to historical fortified cities, although Ebonhawke's inner keep could have been better designed), but as was stated in the novels, humans are pretty good at not letting charr war machines get into range and remain in operation for long. For all their technology, the charr are probably at a disadvantage when they get portal-bombed by a magic-heavy platoon that portals back out again once they've done the job. Sylvari seem to have similar characteristics to humans in this respect - possibly more so, because while the most common 'regular soldier' profession among humans is warrior, among sylvari it seems to be rangers. I'd also note that the flammability of plants seems to be overrated - in fact, I think sylvari have been said to be no more flammable than humans, and the green plants used in their abilities probably behave similarly in that respect. Sylvari plant manipulation probably allows for more portable "siege equipment" than humans, but they also seem to be a lot less powerful. Norn are probably at the extreme here: they have basically no organised military forces to speak of, but between their stubborn individuality, knowledge of survival techniques, and probably having the highest individual strength on average of the five races, they'd likely represent a pretty mean guerilla force.

Broadly speaking, I'd probably say Warrior, Ranger, Necromancer, and Guardian, in no particular order. Ranger starts to get a bit more complicated when you get to elite specialisations. Necromancer will probably give you the smoothest time in open world and story, while guardian is probably the most versatile of the four for high-end PvE (although most groups will appreciate a warrior for banners, and if you can master both druid and soulbeast ranger does well in high-end PvE, but see above comment about ranger getting more complicated with elite specialisations).

Taking the question at face value: Mesmers are still fairly valued in 10-man instanced PvE. Boon chrono doesn't have the monopoly it used to have, but it still has its strengths in 10-man (5-man groups seem to prefer firebrigade for role compression). Mesmers also tend to bench pretty highly in DPS when they have all the boons provided by the rest of the team. Problem is that when running solo, they don't have the ability to self-buff and deal damage solo that other professions have. Surprised that you're saying you're having trouble with story, though - it can sometimes require a bit of build customisation, but I generally haven't found it that hard to get through story content with mesmer. There are definitely other professions that I usually have more problems with if I'm going to have problems at all.

> @"Lonami.2987" said: > > At that point, just turn them into weapons, and give elementalists weapon swap. Problem is that giving elementalists weapon swap would be another twenty skills for free. Treating conjure weapons as kits (or just simply something that's a bit more convenient than conjures currently are, such as losing the second weapon and cutting the cooldown in half) would be five skills for the price of a utility slot, which is a lot more reasonable.

I think the OP is missing the point of conjure weapons by regarding them as just one more thing that goes into a rotation. Sure, they can get used that way, but... their primary role is to give elementalist an opportunity to fake having a regular weaponswap. Elementalist weapons tend to have the same (or at least very similar) optimal ranges regardless of attunement - staff is a slow, long-range weapon oriented towards area effects and fields, scepter is a more responsive, shorter range weapon that's more single-target oriented, dagger is a close-in weapon without actually being melee, and sword is actual melee. Conjures give you a weapon option that actually does something different. If you have a long-range weapon, conjure earth or lightning gives you a weapon that will help you out in melee. If you have a close-range or melee weapon, fire or water will give you a ranged weapon. I'd argue that this is _particularly_ important for weavers because if they're using a sword, they're pretty much an obligatory melee character. You can get away with that sometimes, but that's similar to regular weaponswap professions going with melee weapons on both sets. Sometimes, you want a ranged weapon on a melee build. Most professions cover this using one of their swaps. Sword weavers have conjures. Is there room for streamlining and other improvement? Certainly. But their intended function requires that they remain part of the core profession.

> @"Raffrey.5271" said: > > @"Touchme.1097" said: > > "September 22, 2017 Path of Fire release: Demonic Lore has been added to the game." Bring the Demon lords into Tyria, it's gonna be fun. There are plenty of villains that can threaten Tyria other than Elder Dragons and Disgraced Gods. Now that Gods have departed to new worlds there are a lot of opportunities for villains to ascend. A new evil race of monsters can threaten tyrians as well, the mist is full of opportunities to expand the current lore. Other worlds and other dimensions can possibly exist in the game's lore, see how aberrations can expand the lore in RPGs and it can actually deliver a successful product. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Lore > > Demonic Lore is a trait from Scourge Elite Specialization. Most likely it doesn't mean anything to the backstory. Demons _are_ an actual thing in the fluff, though. They're basically Mist-formed entities which are usually malevolent. In Guild Wars 1, we mostly fought demons that were loyal to one of the fallen gods, but they don't have to be (and the Utopia plotline was originally going to be going deeper into what demons are in the franchise... something that there are signs now that ArenaNet might be planning to reconstitute once the Elder Dragon arc is finished). So yeah... Demons attacking Tyria en masse? Or the PC having some reason to go into the Mists, where the demons are? Both perfectly plausible. Especially if the resolution of the Elder Dragons arc still leaves Tyria in a high-magic state where it might be relatively easy for rifts to open to the Mists.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable. > > they could very well have those traits do different things for the e-spec. > similar how GM trait gives reflect to disort but extends Csplit. > And they dont even have to be all that different, IF the new espec is similar to how FB works then you can have things like ( when you whip out F2 instrument, blind nearby foes. or F2 instrument skill X blinds foes in its area of effect ) > Master of fragmentation? F1 instrument skills have increased critical chance, to make it balanced maybe +10% instead. > Or even if they care they can simply replace the traits compleatly when you take e-spec, all it would take is designing couple new traits. > But as always it just takes effort. This. As long as whatever replaces the shatters are skills with broadly the same purpose (F1 deals power damage, F2 inflicts conditions, F3 is CC, and F4 is defensive), there's no reason why the existing shatter traits couldn't work with them. Particularly since with the traits that affect F4, ArenaNet has already shown that they're willing to change the effect of the trait based on whether you're running Chronomancer or not, so something similar could also apply to any hypothetical non-shattering elite spec.

As I commented in previous posts, I tried to only count 'reworks' that were intended to improve the profession rather than nerfs. Reworks that were _intended_ to be nerfs is something firebrand in particular has had a lot of (a lot of the adjustments to Tome of Courage in particular were aimed at making certain boons less available). However, I don't think that reworks that were intended to be nerfs can realistically be considered evidence of favouritism. And as I also said in a previous post, even reworks that are aimed at improving the profession can sometimes be a toss of the dice - sometimes the skill team does something that they intend to be an improvement, but actually ends up losing something that the original setup had. Either way, the evidence shows that guardian has NOT had more work done on it than other professions, as you claimed. Is it in better shape than most other professions? Yes. But this isn't because it's had more work done on it than other professions. It's because ArenaNet got the fundamentals right back in 2015 and it never _needed_ as much work as other professions to be in good shape.

'Should' is a nebulous term. I think there is room for a mesmer build that does something else with the F1-F4 keys than shatters, though. For instance, they could involve giving some order to your illusions that doesn't destroy them (including setting them all on a new target). Giving back persistent phantasms through an elite spec would be worthwhile, I think. I understand why they changed it, but it's a playstyle people enjoyed, and reworking the F1-F4 skills to allow for more active control over phantasms could keep it as a reasonably active build rather than a passive one.

> @"Jski.6180" said: > > Lack of evidence is evidence of lack of updates. So, you acknowledge that your lack of evidence is evidence of a lack of reworks to guardian of the level that I've presented examples for with respect to other professions? > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > NB.: The necromancer got a lot of work done (at least more than what you seem to remember) but it's starting point, performance wise, was also a lot worse than most other professions (As for DM, they just shuffled the numbers to make it look different, the necromancer even ended up getting QoL loss out of it since they replaced flat damage reduction by toughness. I'd rather not have "rework" if it's these kind of rework, it would be like changing honor to give you a stackable vitality buff for a maximum of 300 vitality while removing _force of will_ vitality buff). Yeah, there's a degree of that. Reworks can be a bit of a toss of the proverbial dice, and it's better to not need it in the first place, which is the situation guardian has been in since the pre-HoT specialisations rework (where ALL of the core professions had their trait structure rebuilt). Some reworks are a bit meh, others can end up making the profession overpowered for a bit until they get pared back. (And yeah, I had a feeling there was more for the necromancer than I remembered. It's why I was stressing that I was listing purely from memory. If I was to go through the history pages of the wiki I'm sure I'd find more, but I just can't be bothered. I think I've already demonstrated my point with regards to Jski's claims unless there's been a major traitline rework to guardian that I've forgotten, and _I'm pretty sure there hasn't been._ > @"Axl.8924" said: > > I think its a issue of balancing tradeoffs with benefits. > > Core needs a way to stay desireable on ele/nec engi etc, because if not its just elites are 2.0 of that class with superior mechanics. > > It would make sense if core's tradeoff of melee dmg is for higher condi dmg or something or making tempest stronger in support and weaker in damage than core ele somehow with traits. Yeah, pretty much. The idea of tradeoffs is to keep the core profession balanced against the elite specs, and therefore the strongest indicator of whether a profession has sufficient tradeoffs is _whether the core profession is seeing use._ Cherrypicked comparisons between mechanics that ignore the opportunity cost of a third core traitline are missing the point if the core variant is doing well - and core guardian IS doing well. Or at least better than any other core profession. Maybe there's still room for improvement, but at the moment I'd consider the other professions to be a higher priority. (Noting that tradeoffs can come from buffing core as well as by nerfing the elite specialisation. After all, part of the reason core guardian is doing well, however much people might throw shade about the comparison between tomes and core virtues, is that all of the core traitlines bring something worthwhile to the table. While buffing core traitlines can also indirectly buff elite specialisations, it can also increase the likelihood that taking a third core traitline genuinely is more useful than taking an elite specialisation, especially if you're not planning to use what that elite specialisation brings.)

> @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > > > The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for _all_ professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant. > > > > > > Guardian and DH, yes. > > > FB is definitely overloaded though. > > > > > > I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead. > > > In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs. > > > > > > I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced. > > > > > > > > > > Not really. What you give up when you pop a tome is that for the period you have the tome up, you don't have access to your weapon skills any more. Courage and Resolve are pretty heavily specialised - while you've got either of them up, you're not getting any damage to speak of out of the left side of your bar at all, just defensive buffs and haling respectively. You can drop the tome before using it up, of course, but then the tome is going on full recharge without having gained the full benefit from it. And, of course, that recharge starts when the tome is finished, so the effective recharge of tomes is longer than it is on paper. > > > > Justice is a bit less specialised because damage is always useful, but if you're running a healbrand, you might need to be careful when you switch into it, because doing so at the wrong time might deprive your group of healing and buffs coming from your weaponset. > > > > Another consideration is that while it might look like 15 skills on paper, in practice it's rare that you'll actually be able to make good use out of all three. Firebrands have pretty much been ejected from sPvP at the moment (seriously, there's not one firebrand build recommended on Metabattle last time I checked). Courage largely rewards concentration, resolve healing power and concentration, and justice rewards damage stats, particularly _condition_ damage - in practice, you need to choose between them. Usually between damage or support. Courage probably loses the least from having the 'wrong' gearset, but it's also probably the most specialised: in competitive being able to spam stability for a few seconds is great, but in high end PvE, it's basically an emergency button that you'd prefer to never have to press because the benefits don't offset the DPS loss (when my group runs Matthias, for instance, even if there are firebrands in the group, they're usually instructed to let Mesmers put up the projectile reflect bubbles and the Firebrands should only do so in an emergency if the mesmers can't, because for the firebrands, switching to Tome of Courage to put up a reflect bubble is generally a DPS loss). In practice, it's not practical to have one build that really makes use of both Justice and Resolve. For a DPS build, puling a Tome of Resolve is basically a last-ditch Hail Mary that probably won't actually save whoever it is that's in trouble from dying because the healing is too low, and in the meantime you're not DPSing. For a healing build, pulling out ToJ when it's safe to do so usually does give a slight uptick in damage, but you're going from "not much" to "a little more but still not much". > > > > Saying that you're giving up 3 skills for 15 is an overly simplistic analysis because it doesn't take into account how much more of an action economy investment the tomes represent. Sure, there's more options, but there's limits on how well you can USE those options. Dragonhunter virtues are pretty fire-and-forget: you use them like you would a normal skill and then go back to your regular rotation. Core guardian virtues can be activated _while_ performing other actions, which can lead to sneaky tricks like activating F1 as you deliver the killing blow on a mob to get effectively free boons, using F1 or F3 to cover a stomp mid-animation (with appropriate traits), or being able to simply faceroll the virtues before activating Renewed Focus in a pinch. A firebrand using their virtues, on the other hand, is more of a mode shift. They give you more options, to be sure, but they represent a significant interruption of what you'd be doing otherwise. > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > They only partly separated and there are some massive hold overs from pve balancing that very bluntly gets in the way of spvp and wvw balancing. Anet is realty bad a favoring some classes over others gurd is the best example of this for all game types. Anet likes ppl to play gurd over all other classes this is why they gotten more reworks and buffs over all and that IS a massive balancing problem that anet and anet alone has made. > > > > > > > > That's... really not accurate. The only significant rework Guardian has had since HoT was the spirit weapon rework. The core traitlines and mechanics are still largely doing what they did after the all-profession traitline rework pre-HoT, and the only times I can think of where there have been functionality changes to elite specialisation stuff (as opposed to numbers reworks) it's been to nerf them. There's been nothing along the lines of the full traitline reworks that revenant, warrior, and engineer have had, or the complete mechanics change that mesmer had a little after PoF released. > > > > > > > > Largely because it hasn't needed them. > > > > > > > > The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for _all_ professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant. > > > > > > That a lot bigger then most classes. > > > > Pretty sure most other classes have had reworks that are at _least_ as big as reworking four utility skills (and three weapon skills, I guess, since sword and scepter were changed to have symbols and Ray of Judgement was changed). > > > > Revenant had Devastation and Corruption reworked, recently, and Mallyx skills have been reworked a couple of times. Offhand sword has been completely redesigned, for better or worse. Oh, and they've also had Salvation reworked, for better or worse. Come to think on it, I'm not sure that _any_ core revenant traitline has avoided a rework. Let's not forget the introduction of legend-specific Facet of Nature skills, or the core F2. > > > > Warrior had the tactics rework, and the warhorn rework. I think there's been more, but Warrior is one of my least played professions, and I'm doing this purely off memory. > > > > Scrapper had basically everything except the hammer reworked. Core engineer had the Inventions rework (which is a large part of the reason why heal scrapper exists) and the big Explosions rework, which is largely why engineers have been dominating sPvP lately. > > > > Thief had traps turned into preparations, which generally resulted in stronger effects at the cost of being a bit fiddlier to use, as well as the Shadow Arts rework. Oh, and the Deadeye redesign. > > > > Necromancer had the big rework on the Death Magic traitline not too long ago. I'm pretty sure I remember them also having big reworks to Spite and Curses back before PoF. Focus was redesigned, and I think scepter had some significant work done on it as well. > > > > Mesmer got pretty much rebuilt from the ground up around Season 4 Episode 2. I don't think any profession has been reworked as much as mesmer (and this isn't really a good thing for the profession). > > > > Elementalist had the Fire Magic traitline overhauled, and the summoning glyphs changed (it's possible to have multiple lesser elementals out at once now). > > > > Ranger had sword redesigned. I have a feeling that they've had redesigns to their utility traitlines as well, but again, I'm going off memory here, and ranger is one of my less played professions. > > > > This is also, incidentally, only considering reworks that were intended to buff underused parts of the profession, rather than cases where functionality has been stripped back or changed for the purpose of nerfing (something that has happened to guardian as well). I'm also going off memory here, so there may be a lot I'm forgetting. Guardian traitlines, by contrast, haven't had any big reworks since pre-HoT: a few individual traits have been tweaked, but no complete tree redesigns. A few skills that weren't being used were replaced and that's just about it. There are some professions there that you could argue have had about the same in the way of reworks, but revenant, engineer, thief, necromancer, and mesmer have all clearly had more. And of the three that are not in that list, it might just be because they're professions I generally play less and thus don't remember their reworks as well. > > Not even close to the same of what gurad has been update and added on. I note a distinct lack of examples as evidence to your case there. (I do note that I just realised that I'd forgotten the reworks to staff skills 1 and 2, but there's still everything I've just listed for the other professions, _and that was just off memory._ I'm pretty sure there's stuff I've forgotten there as well.)

> @"Xaylin.1860" said: > The reason we still see baseline Guardians is mostly due to baseline traitline interactions, not due to e-spec trade-offs. Which is one of the things I've been facepalming about with the whole 'tradeoff' thing for years now. The core traitline you _could_ have otherwise had is the biggest tradeoff of all. Guardian just... doesn't really have any bad traitlines. For some professions, especially before the trait reworks, it was often fairly simple to pick out two core traitlines that really helped you out and then... well, the third one might as well be an elite spec, because there isn't really anything better. For guardian... there genuinely are at least three core traitlines that would work for pretty much any build you'd want to set up. If you're actually using the stuff that the elite specialisation brings, then it's worth having, but there's always that one additional core traitline that you'd be able to get one more nice synergy if you could squeeze it in, but you _can't._ That's _why_ guardian is the one profession that hasn't had a big traitline rework. It hasn't _needed_ them. _Because they're all good._ That's not favouritism. That's ArenaNet getting it right the first time, one time out of nine. So a lot of people claim that the virtue tradeoff isn't enough of a tradeoff. And considered in isolation, maybe it isn't. But if guardians aren't giving up enough in exchange for elite specs, why has guardian been the one profession which has consistently still had core remain relevant even in the face of elite specs? Go to Metabattle, right now. There's a highly-rated **core** Guardian build in _literally every category_. How does that happen if guardian elite specs don't represent a significant tradeoff? _It doesn't._ Maybe the tradeoff is in the traits more than the skills, but the fact that core builds are seeing more use for Guardian than any other profession tells me that, whatever theorycrafting people might throw around on the forum, the tradeoffs that guardian already has _are sufficient._ Other professions have varying levels of representation of core builds, from 'used in some modes but not in others' to 'for levelling and free-to-play only and you should get an elite spec as soon as you can', but guardian has core representation everywhere. Clearly, people using those builds think that the tradeoffs are sufficiently painful to stick with core at least some of the time. Some of these builds are only minor modifications of pre-HoT builds! "Not enough tradeoff" my foot. Look at actual ingame performance, and somehow, guardian seems to be the one profession that's got the level of tradeoff such that running an elite spec _isn't_ automatically an upgrade. This is part of why the common line was "guardian is in a good place". Its internal balance is such that core guardian still gets used, a lot more than core builds on most other professions even _with_ harsh tradeoffs. It's versatile enough to fulfill the promise ArenaNet made pre-release of every profession being able to fulfill multiple roles. However, the only roles it dominates are those where it grants a highly desired boon (quickness in high-end PvE, stability in WvW zergs) - and it doesn't have a monopoly on either. People keep throwing shade on the guardian, but the guardian is more or less at the point where ArenaNet wants all professions to be. Guardian genuinely _is_ in a good place. The problem is that most other professions _aren't._