draxynnic.3719

"Temporary" might actually be a means of allowing turrets to be usable without having the power the old turret build had in PvP. ArenaNet has already taken steps in that direction (by making the overcharge happen right after deployment and only right after deployment, and by removing the self-repair trait): making turrets having a limited lifespan might allow them to be balanced so that they are an effective DPS boost for the period they're out rather than having to be balanced on the assumption that they'll be out indefinitely.

One approach that could work is for them to have a limited number of times they can fire before they run out of ammunition and self-detonate: that would mean they could be used to 'fortify' a position in a similar manner to traps, but won't have the potential to remain there plinking away throughout a battle. Whacking it with a wrench might restore ammunition, but that requires additional commitment.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> "People." "Modern definition." "Obsolete for centuries." Where? In our world, not Tyria.

Yes. In our world, where this discussion is happening, and where everyone, including you, know what everybody means by the term. You're trying to reframe the discussion. Furthermore, from everything we've seen in Tyria, words have their modern Earth definition unless stated otherwise. (It's likely that realistically speaking, New Krytan is not modern English or any other modern Earth language, but is being translated into such for our benefit. So in New Krytan, the word "tyrant" might mean the modern definition, the ancient Greek definition, or might not exist at all - but they will have some term for a "cruel and oppressive ruler" which ingame gets translated to "tyrant" or "despot" or some similar term for our benefit, because _we_ are modern English speakers.)

Seriously, you're trying to shift the discussion into whether a word that everybody understands to mean a particular thing _actually_ means that thing instead of focusing on the actual topic of discussion. This is the sort of tactic I generally file under "last resort of someone who knows they're losing the argument".

As for the moral relativism through different social mores argument: Our reference point is the nations of Tyria, for whom most if not all of the items on the list I gave would be considered to be reprehensible behaviour. Except among the villain factions, which are explicitly denoted as such because of their behaviour.

Rytlock's behaviour in PoF indicates that Joko's behaviour is beyond the pale even by charr standards, which are probably the most Machiavellian of the playable race. The other contender for an amoral race would be the asura, for whom we've been told that things like knowingly murdering and torturing sapient beings is taboo, as is using the soul of a sapient being to power a golem against their will (which would be the rough equivalent to animating someone as an Awakened* against their will, which is something that we know does happen in Joko's empire) - asura that break these taboos are presented as villains through the game. For all of your attempts to shift the conversation, the fact of the matter is that by the morals of the factions that playable characters come from, Joko is clearly a villain and a tyrant.

By the modern definition of 'tyrant', if you insist on being pedantic about that, but again: Everyone here is going to be using the modern definition unless stated otherwise. We have other words that mean what the ancient Greek usage of 'tyrant' conveyed.

*Or, for that matter, as Forged - which Joko didn't do directly, but he aided and abetted Balthaddon in creating them before Balthaddon betrayed him.

It's not relevant because it's not the definition people are using. End of story.

People aren't condemning Joko because he's not the heir of a royal house. Heck, I said in my above post that it's entirely possible that he _is_, and may have only missed out on legitimately assuming the throne due to politics or a technicality.

People are condemning Joko because he seized Elona in an, as far as we know, unprovoked invasion. (Yes, the charr invaded Ascalon, but as far as we know, none of the charr who were involved in that are still around. Joko is the same Joko that launched both invasions of Elona.)

People are condemning Joko because he was responsible for the ecological and agricultural collapse of Kourna.

People are condemning Joko because he burned what was possibly the greatest library before the founding of the Durmand Priory and rewrote history for his own glorification.

People are condemning Joko because he responds to someone speaking out against him by cutting out their tongue, blinding them, killing and Awakening them hoping to have mental control over them, and when that fails, abandoning their body to lie in a desert for eternity.

People are condemning Joko because he maintains control through a secret police that exiles people into what is effectively a slave camp, isolated from their friends and family forever, for the merest hint that they aren't happy with how things are.

People are condemning Joko because it is apparently standard practice among the exile camp for anyone who doesn't meet quota to be executed and Awakened.

People are condemning Joko because his undead viceroys apparently consider it perfectly acceptable to poison the people they are responsible for in order to create more corpses for Awakening - and whatever fig leaf Joko may claim about having not given the orders directly, who are his viceroys taking their cues from?

People are condemning Joko because he has a harem whose occupants are apparently there because that is the only way to prevent suffering among the communities they came from.

People are condemning Joko because he conspired with a fallen god in order to steal the souls of the dead from the Domain of the Lost.

People are condemning Joko because the last thing we heard on leaving the Domain of the Lost was Joko anticipating the tortures he would inflict when he escapes.

In less than a week, people will probably be condemning Joko for putting people in those hanging cages we saw in the trailer for the next season.

The modern definition of "tyrant" is "a cruel and oppressive ruler". That sounds like a pretty long list of acts of cruelty and oppression to me - and I think I've probably missed a few. The label fits, and trying to change the label by an ancient definition is arguing semantics, and semantics that have been obsolete for centuries.

Against this, you have... people who have bought into the propaganda, and people who are working in his breadbasket area - as long as they're south of the wall, and haven't been poisoned by the local administration - having sufficient food.

On the topic of Joko being a Primeval King...

I'm, personally, of the opinion that there is some basis to this claim, but there's also a good reason why the genuine Primeval Kings reject it. Maybe he had good reason to think he should be the heir, but was skipped over due to some reason of politics or rules of succession. Maybe he was stripped of rank for some real or trumped-up crime. Maybe simply becoming a lich was enough to disqualify him. While we don't have any reference to him during the Primeval Dynasty period, his behaviour is consistent with one who was passed over or thrown out and who has a chip on his shoulder as a result.

@"Ayumi Spender.1082" Free-willed Awakened existed in GW1: the Desolation was filled with Awakened who rebelled against Joko. Either his imprisonment after his defeat by Turai weakened his control, he's modified the Awakening process since to ensure control, or there are some he enforces control over and some he leaves free-willed if he thinks they'll be loyal.

@"Athrenn.9468" The term 'tyrant' certainly did have a different meaning to the ancient Greeks, but it's not really relevant to this discussion: most people will take 'tyrant' to be the modern definition unless otherwise specified. And we have a number of examples of how Joko's rule is cruel and oppressive, and judging by the Daybreak trailer we'll see more next week.

He may be a pragmatic despot, but that doesn't mean he's a good ruler. The PC is probably right when (s)he says that Elona would probably be better off without Joko. Saying it to Joko's face might have been a mistake (a smarter ploy might be to say "Those chains could only be broken by Balthazar or by killing Balthazar, and I'm off to do the latter"), but it's probably still the truth. Removing Joko may cause some chaos for a decade or two, but that may be better than an eternity of Joko.

> @"Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931" said:

> It's possible he acknowledged that it would be a losing battle and decided it was better to die in battle than to run away. It's also possible that he knew that they're not omniscient and that they could be wrong, that slaying the elder dragons just results in the power transferring to them.

>

> Personally I do find it odd that he decided to go for it but I expect a god of war to be ruthless, objective and invested in tactics. I would expect this god to see that the situation is bad and go find another solution. In reality we know relatively little of his personality and whether this was typical behaviour for him so it's hard to say whether this is out of character for him.

>

> Ultimately the new Kormir line is interesting but doesn't really add anything we don't already know. It's still hazy as to whether Balthazar has been replaced but I'm in the camp that he has been replaced and there are still six gods. It's worth keeping in mind that while Kormir is intending to speak for the rest of the gods, we have hints that Lyssa doesn't entirely agree/is up to something, so it might not be a unanimous decision to leave.

>

> I think episode 1 is going to be about seeing more of Joko's regime and the build up to our fight with him. I think Aurene is taking down Joko's ships in the trailer and we're just seeing it out of context.

>

> Overall, very excited to see where it all goes.

>

>

Well, the view of the other gods seems to be that there could be no victory, since even if they win, they lose: destroying the Elder Dragons will result in destroying Tyria. Balthaddon is presented as not caring about that outcome: if he defeats his enemy he considers that a "victory", regardless of the consequences.

> @Ardid.7203 said:

> I also don't get the name change. Was it really necessary? What was the purpose for that?

The name "Gleam" was pretty much always presented as a name that had been given by people who didn't know the scion's real name. Vlast is that real name.

It's also possible, mind you, that Kormir was generalising, and the Searing and Cataclysm did play a role in awakening the dragons. Abaddon's efforts to cause Nightfall (which did have effects outside of Elona, Elona is just what we saw because that's where our characters were) and his subsequent defeat may have been the final straw rather than the sole cause of the dragons waking up.

It's implied in the Dragon's Lair instance in PoF that Glint didn't foresee anything beyond Edge of Destiny. (Which explains, for instance, why her plan for Aurene didn't take into account Mordremoth waking up early, and she probably completely failed to predict the PC.)

> @Squee.7829 said:

> I see. I somehow hadn't noticed the strait of Malchor would be part of that route. So I guess sea trade would be pretty much useless.

>

> Still, though, at least it is in a position to control land based trading too.

True enough - an overland route from east to west does involve passing close to Lion's Arch. Combined with the havens, I don't think there's any doubt that it's a major hub for land trade. It was more the presence of significant sea trade - particularly, sufficient sea trade to support an apparently thriving pirate population - that's doubtful given the lack of other ports.

> @Squee.7829 said:

> Maybe. I don't think it'd work though. Joko will just be happy he gained a free statue. I honestly can't imagine a situation where someone would invade a place and go "oh, but they built this nice statue of me. I'll leave them alone. So sweet."

Probably not, but that's not really the scenario that Aaron is talking about. Their 'vassal' status could well mean that they're not allowed to maintain their own military, leaving them reliant on Joko for protection (and food in Kourna's case) in exchange for... whatever it is that Joko gets from them, which certainly does seem to include freedom to hunt down any Ossas or Sunspears in their territory. They may have some autonomy to run their own affairs, but Joko doesn't have to invade: his military is already there, and they are effectively part of Joko's empire even if they do have some limited autonomy. In that context, a big statue could essentially be sending a message of "You don't need to establish a police state here, we're loyal citizens, honest!"

...And the events of E1 could be where Joko has decided that he's no longer buying that.

Like I said, it was a plot point that Zhaitan closed the Straits of Malchor out of the Sea of Sorrows. You can't get from LA to Rata Sum Port Authority without passing through the Straits of Malchor. Therefor, there would have been no sea trade from Rata Sum to Lion's Arch.

Talon's surprise was sourced from Zhaitan having been essentially content to just maintain the blockade for over a century without making any credible assault on Lion's Arch.

> @Squee.7829 said:

> I think it was mentioned somewhere that the Mordent Crescent was only initially made from Sunspears. It has broadened its base sense then. Also, Sunspear numbers are probably far too small now to fully force a military unit indefinitely. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more MC than actual living Sunspears at this point.

Quite likely, particularly given that Awakened Mordant Crescent aren't going to be subject to attrition from dying of old age.

Due to various circumstances, I haven't been able to explore PoF _nearly_ as much as I'd like two months in - in that two months, I think I've had less than two weeks where I've been able to do much more than just grab the dailies. So there's probably quite a few such details I just haven't had the opportunity to come across yet.

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @Squee.7829 said:

> > New map could be Maarga Coast. Just speculating, there. I would think, and I could be wrong, that the statues we saw make it less likely that we'll be in Istan. Istan is the only region not actually under Jokos control. Sort of. They're a vassal, which is close, but not part of his empire. I doubt they'd erect huge statues of him unless it was like some cheap appeasement ploy.

>

> Every source that refers to Istan as a vassal, though, also extends the same distinction to Kourna.

>

> Based on the precedent of the last vassal states we saw (Kurzicks and Luxons), I expect the term just means that the region has relative autonomy on the condition that they continue to at least give lip service to the Emperor/Joko. If anything, they might be _more_ inclined to build massive statues. After all, if the local Awakened representative starts considering stripping your freedoms, it'd be nice to have a really big symbol of your loyalty to point to. That's not a cheap appeasement, that's smart politics.

I'd say that a statue that large is actually rather _expensive_ appeasement. :p

But yeah, under the circumstances, appeasement might well be smart politics.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > You mean Awakened?

>

> No, I meant Mordant Crescent. That may have been true as of the publication of the Movement of the World but new dynamic events say otherwise.

>

> [Help Okoro test his mettle by training with him](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Okoro_test_his_mettle_by_training_with_him "Help Okoro test his mettle by training with him"):

>

> **Okoro:** My youngest son, Okan, sees the value of strength and trains tirelessly to overcome hurdles before anyone else. He is sure to be accepted into the Mordant Crescent. He sets a fine example for his older brothers.

>

> That's one example of a Vabbian citizen who is hoping to see his son accepted into the Mordant Crescent after death, not just to be reanimated as an Awakened soldier.

That is a shift. Being one event, it's possible that the devs kittened up and put the wrong thing in, but taking it as canon, it does actually seem to add more evidence to my hypothesis: with the Mordant Crescent essentially being the 'officer caste', this hints that Joko wants his officer corps to be volunteers who believe (at least initially...) that it's an exclusive honour.

> @Squee.7829 said:

> Wasn't it all but confirmed, or actually confirmed, that Balthazar made Sohothin and Magdear? If anyone can siphon its magic and give it back, or even just turn it off and on again, it would be the guy that made it.

I think it's been hinted by one of the devs commenting about us killing Balthaddon with "his own sword". Which a lot of people have interpreted as meaning that Balthazar created the swords in the first place.

> @Squee.7829 said:

> I imagine most trade with Asuras and Sylvari are done over sea. It'd be much easier and faster to send a ship in a straight line to Rata Sum than send caravans through the wildlands and maguuma jungle. The Norn, charr, and humans probably mostly trade over land. Lions Arch is centrally located for whatever kind of trade people prefer!

Now, probably, but at the start of the game, Zhaitan effectively controlled the sea route from Lion's Arch to Rata Sum. You just couldn't take that route and hope to make it alive. The sylvari had only existed for twenty-five years at the time, and I don't _think_ there's a port in the Grove, and there _can't_ be one much further north in the Caledon because the southeastern region was overrun by Risen and the rest of the eastern border is mostly blocked by the Dominion of Winds.

So there's no visible evidence of sea trade with the sylvari (and if there was any, it'd only be a recent thing), while the sea route to Rata Sum was cut off by Zhaitan. So the only sea trade, based by the ports we're shown in-game, is between LA and Garrenhoff.

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> From what we've heard, they mostly hit travel to and from Lion's Arch itself, either by sea (I've never seen any mention of asura using submarines, btw, so I'd be curious what your source is there) or land. We see a lot of 'pirates', especially around the False Lake and Lake Gendarr, who stick to the nautical theme but for all other purposes are essentially landlubber bandits.

Which is actually one of the things I've considered a bit "plotholeish" about Lion's Arch. Where was that sea trade coming from? The only port we see that could conceivably be trading with Lion's Arch at the start of GW2 is Garrenhoff, and that's both fairly minor and basically next-door to Lion's Arch. Sure, Rata Sum has docks, but it was a plot point that Zhaitan was blocking surface sea travel past Orr. Once Kryta withdrew from the Sea of Sorrows, there just shouldn't have been enough sea trade for Lion's Arch to continue to be viable as a port trading city at all, let alone to support all the pirates we see. Which explains them being 'landlubber bandits'.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> The only bodies allowed to enter the Mordant Crescent appear to be those whose living relatives have brought them to the Necropolis to be judged before their peers and sentenced by a judge. Not all citizens of Vabbi share this fate and the rest are most likely cremated judging by the funeral procession dialogue. In which case, there actually appears to be some degree of choice in the matter since someone whose family decides not to bring the deceased person's body to trial will most likely not be reanimated. The push towards a body being reanimated must come from the person's living relatives who have an incentive to add members of their family to the king's army. It's considered more of a status symbol than a chore to the people who bring their dead to court so "body farm" wouldn't be an accurate description from the indigenous perspective.

You mean Awakened? The Mordant Crescent are specifically ex-Sunspears that defected.

That's part of the whole 'nice facade, rotten underneath' nature of Joko's empire, however.

Within Vabbi, being Awakened is seen as being an honour, which is only granted by those that are deemed 'worthy'. (We also see this in some other places, like that hero challenge south of Amnoon). This is essentially a psychological trick, akin to the emperor's new clothes in the fairy tale: by making it seem exclusive and prestigious, Joko turns it into something people _want_ when otherwise they might consider it to be horrible.

Meanwhile, in other parts of Joko's domain, we see people getting murdered to be raised as Awakened, or even graves being robbed to provide more raw material. So clearly, Joko's forces aren't actually selective about who is granted the 'honour' of being awakened. It's just that in areas where Joko and his lackeys want to rule with a lighter touch, they perform their 'recruitment' by persuading people that it's a desirable state to be. In those where they're more inclined to show their true colours, they're more inclined to just take.

One other consideration is that it's possible that willing Awakened make better Awakened than bodies taken by force. It's possible that those taken by force can only be allowed a certain degree of autonomy or they'll rebel given the opportunity (a lesson Joko may have learned from the chaos of his empire in GW1). Creating officers for the Awakened army probably requires willing, loyal converts.

Not to mention that we have a precedent of a being that has had its portfolio taken still being pretty dhuumed powerful by mortal standards...

Could be a lot of places. The ships do imply that it's somewhere that can be reached by ship, though, so a coastal region seems likely. The current map doesn't go as far south as Istan or Kourna, though, so if they're sticking to the current map, we may be looking at Dajkah or somewhere on the Scavenger's Causeway. Alternatively, I think there has been a map datamined that extends further south, so Gandara or Kamadan may be possible...

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > >Taimi is growing into her own and I'm glad she's prone to making mistakes, but I do think that even her mistake (however potentially disastrous it was) is diminished by how the mistake was made during a period of lack of sleep. If she had made the mistake while at her best, then I think there'd be more legitimacy to her character arc of "oh crap I made a mistake" and trying to fix it.

> >

> > That said, while the big error could be said to be from sleep deprivation, it was Taimi's decision to "never sleep again" because she was so excited by the potential of her research. She was only in the position where she could make mistakes due to sleep deprivation because she herself chose to do research on manipulating magic on a potentially apocalyptic scale while not at her best, and that decision, and the consequences, _is_ on her.

>

> As a person who thinks like that IRL, I tend to sympathise with Taimi. Once you pick up an interest, it's easy to roll with it for minutes, hours, days. Oh, look at the time. Gotta run!

>

> In all seriousness though, I like Taimi mainly because of her quirks and flaws. She'd be SUPER flat and boring without them!

Oh, I know, I can be susceptible to it myself. I'm drawing from my own experience when I say that not getting enough sleep when working on something important is itself a mistake.

> @Arden.7480 said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @Arden.7480 said:

> > > I can't remember Kormir said: "The conflict could only end in two ways: the ruin of the Six or the utter destruction of Tyria's magical imbalance"...

> >

> > She didn't, this is a new line. The devs did say that speech went through multiple rewrites, this was likely a line that was recorded than removed. Which is a kitten shame because it removes all subtly about why the gods shouldn't fight the dragons. Before we only get told "last time the gods fought" devastation happened in a wide region.This left players wondering "can't the gods just replace the Elder Dragons?"

> >

> > This line, however, tells us that no, the gods cannot replace the Elder Dragons. So their victory is a guaranteed destruction of Tyria because their victory wouldn't include replacements.

> >

> > Doesn't tell us why they cannot when supposedly other dragons can, and doesn't tell us why they could fight, overpower, and strip god Balthazar of power but not fight former god Balthazar.

> >

> > > @Arden.7480 said:

> > > Then Aurene attacks the ship... Why? Will she turn out as our enemy? I doubt it... We are connected to her so much... Perhaps we'll hear her thoughts?

> > >

> > > I guess this "Aurene?" sounds like the commander is surprised by her new appearance.

> > >

> > > Don't make this character evil... If she will I'll call out Taimi a prophet XD *Glad to hear it. Especially if it lessens the likelihood of an older, bigger Aurene going rogue and slaughtering us all.* Hahahaha :D

> > >

> > >

> > > But I speculate that Aurene will die, this is my speculation out of nowhere. Aurene will die, you'll see!

> >

> > I don't think they'll kill off Aurene. She's obviously "the key" to solving all our problems. She will get multiple close calls, but she won't die in the end.

> >

> > Because how else can we obtain victory?

> >

> > I think Aurene may be more than a bit confused after the power rush she got. If other beings can go mad from too much magic, why not dragons too? Maybe it's affecting her mind a bit and she's not able to tell between friend and foe that well while she adapts to the new levels of magic within her.

> >

> > > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > > Aurene seems to be using Balthazar's favored Magic while Kralkatorrik uses his own Crystal and Lightning Magic with a boost in power(likely coming from the Bloodstone Balthazar absorbed). Things are getting interesting.

> >

> > Aurene's fire breath always had that look though. It was just smaller so harder to see. Kralkatorrik does use fire himself - in the Edge of Destiny novel he has a golden fiery breath attack that caused branding.

>

> I was obviously joking about that she will die. :) But that'd be really disasterous, like leaving us without anyone that can even try to restore the balance. Just imagine the face of the Commander... that'd be the end of everything and so I want it to happen, even though I know the story will be just a fairy tale with a happy end. :)

>

>

Not necessarily: How much would you say GW1 got a happy ending? Ascalon got Foefired, Cantha taken over by a xenophobic dictatorship, Elona got Joko'd... the only place that could be said to have had a happy end from GW1 is Kryta.

If and when ArenaNet decides to move on to another installment, the 'final state' of Tyria after GW2 will be whatever they want it to be for GW3 (or whatever). Do they want a high-magic postapocalyptic wasteland setting? Force us to kill all the dragons in the end and the new game is dealing with the consequences! Want a new world altogether to remove the baggage of the old once and for all? _Blow it up!_ > @"Hamburger Jack.2543" said:

> > @Arden.7480 said:

> > This trailer is so good!

> >

> > I guess they changed the designer of the trailers because Season 3 ones were really bad. But this one shows amazing stuff, amazing dialogues and the music is perfect!

> >

> > I can't remember Kormir said: "The conflict could only end in two ways: the ruin of the Six or the utter destruction of Tyria's magical imbalance"...

> >

> > The Awakened are still the topic, because they spread out in every corner of Elona- so we may go to Istan or Kourna in the 1st episode. Also the place in the trailer doesn't look like was attacked by Kralkatorrik. I love these statues and the huge statue of Joko looks so amazing!!

> >

> > Then Aurene attacks the ship... Why? Will she turn out as our enemy? I doubt it... We are connected to her so much... Perhaps we'll hear her thoughts?

> >

> > I guess this "Aurene?" sounds like the commander is surprised by her new appearance.

> >

> > Don't make this character evil... If she will I'll call out Taimi a prophet XD *Glad to hear it. Especially if it lessens the likelihood of an older, bigger Aurene going rogue and slaughtering us all.* Hahahaha :D

> >

> >

> > But I speculate that Aurene will die, this is my speculation out of nowhere. Aurene will die, you'll see!

>

> Your speculation is hurting my feelings NOT MY BABY!!!!

>

> I'm also interested to see what the Awakened are up to, maybe they're thinking they need to make more of themselves since Joko is currently MIA? I mean they're not like Risen, they all have independence. I'm thinking the first episode ends with us having to take down some Awakened that's fashioned himself Joko's replacement while still not dealing with Joko.

It's hinted in PoF that killing Balthaddon might break the bindings that prevent Joko from returning, and it was hinted during Halloween that Joko is active on Tyria again.

> @Nemmar.8491 said:

> That is something that upset me you know.

>

> Back when Abaddon died, someone HAD to take on the power or it would go out of control. What is this with Balthazar? He died and nothing happened to his power? Who is the new God? Surely not the dragons.

>

> So, yeah... the story in this game is so thin compared to GW1 that it gets upsetting.

>

> Anyways the thing that made sense is that the commander was the closest human so he would become the new God of War, but it's not like he/she isn't OP as it is.

> I swear, did the people who write the story for GW2 actually at least played GW1? I genuinely would like to know because there's so many plot holes, it's infuriating.

Quick post since I'm lacking in time at the moment, but this is actually something that's been discussed elsewhere. The impression seems to be that Balthaddon's divine power had already been taken away before he arrived on Tyria. What we see from his explosion is what he'd absorbed from the bloodstone and Taimi's device along with the residual power he was left with after losing his divinity.

> @Slyven.8637 said:

> Ok the whole idea of a Engineer using a weapon ie. mace to me is preposterous, Think about it, you are a soldier with mechanical skills, the enemy is invading, do you,

> 1. Rush to your toolbox for a large monkey wrench?

> 2. Pick up a large sledgehammer?

> 3. Strap on your energy pack, pick up your plasma demoleculizer array and set it to maximum charge?

>

> Using tools as a valid weapon is only a last resort. = We are Engineers we don't hack and chop, we blow them up and burn them into a crisp. - with style-

3, but if the enemy gets too close for comfort, you pull out your big monkey wrench and smack them in the face.

When it comes to 2... I think it's pretty clear that scrapper hammer is more than just a sledgehammer.> @RedSPINE.7845 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > Part of me does wonder, however, if ArenaNet might deliberately avoid mace in order to keep their active weapon visible: now that kits no longer have backpacks an engineer using the mace with the wrench skin could make it hard to tell at a glance whether they're actually using the mace or the toolkit (not impossible, of course, but harder).

> >

>

> It's already the case with the Flamethrower skin for Rifle x)

I didn't think there was a rifle that used the flamethrower skin? There's Exterminator (based off the Southsun acid sprayer skin) and Sabetha's Rifle (which is actually a flamethrower, but doesn't use the same skin as flamethrowers used by engineers), but as far as I've been able to find the skin used for flamethrowers (or elixir guns) isn't used for rifles.

Granted, you might have to look pretty close to tell the distinction between some rifle skins and the flamethrower...> @Ardid.7203 said:

> > @Undo.5091 said:

> > No new weapon with the specialization.

> >

> > Instead... Portal. Gun. Kit.

> >

> > ?

>

> This a thousand times.

> (Yes, I know, "no more kits". I don't agree, I think kits should truly be properly recognized and fixed as the profession base mechanic.)

In a way, the holoforge is essentially presented as a way to introduce another 'kit'.

But yeah, I think an elite spec with an array of new kits would be appropriate. I know that ArenaNet wants elite specs to bring in new skill types, but engineer isn't like other professions.

Heck, if they don't make it core, that could be a good spot to work in mace. Give them a variety of asura-inspired ranged weapon kits, and a melee weapon as a backup. Would make more sense than the holosmith implementation (specialisation weapon is melee, holoforge is mostly melee-oriented, so if you take all elite spec stuff you have no ranged autoattack): within the bounds of the elite specialisation, you'll have both ranged weapons (through the new kits) and a melee backup (through being able to use mace).

> @Klowdy.3126 said:

> That was my opinion, unchanged. Asura are the smartest race in the game, and engineering is the only class that would involve genius levels to work properly. You can have stupid people (not players, talking about classes as their own entity) doing all other jobs if they are trained well. Engineer seems like the "smart class". I'm not talking about more, or previous discussions, I'm talking about what makes sense to me.

The impression I get is that the scholar professions all require a certain minimum level of intelligence as well. You get the odd mesmer, elementalist, or necromancer who comes across as something of an idiot savant, but I don't think you can really become competent with those professions if you don't have some intelligence to back it up. It requires brains to invent new technology or even to follow someone else's schematics, but it likewise requires brains to devise new spells or learn someone else's formula.

This probably goes doubly for asura. While we don't have a lot of information on the different approaches towards magic of the races, we have been given a distinction between human and asura magic. Asura regard magic as a science, while humans have a more intuitive approach, like an art, which can sometimes allow them to come up with things that surprise the asura (one could interpret this as being that humans have a more natural connection to magic and asura need to work harder to compete there, but that's never been outright said). Certainly, a lot of asura technology is essentially industrialised production of magic items: mesmers and elementalists are probably just as important, possibly more so, to asura magitech designs as engineers are.

As gannondorf says, on the face of it, asura engineers do seem a bit 'retro' - the technology they use appears more charr-like than asura-like. I think there are builds that get around that somewhat, though. None of the engineer's stuff is really _low_-tech either, after all, and things like pistol/shield or either of the elite specialisation weapons are getting up there, without considering some of the gadgets and traits that veer into the futuristic. (Like, where is that orbital strike _actually_ coming from?)