draxynnic.3719

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> My interpretation is that dervishes are like revenants, except they specialize in communing with the legends of the Six. Take Shiro for example. Pretty dead, right? Well, turns out a dead guy can still pack quite a punch if you know how to channel his memory. Balthazar's memory is probably just as potent in the Mists.

It's also a common theme in the interactions between humans and the gods that the latent powers of the gods are already contained within humanity. These are what is being invoked when humans use their racial skills.

From this perspective, dervishes do seem to be like revenants... except instead of drawing power from legends in the Mists, they're drawing it from their own latent divinity. Basically, what human PCs can dabble in using the human racial skills, dervishes have developed to a much more advanced level whereby the most powerful dervishes can invoke these powers to the level shown in dervish avatars.

From this viewpoint, it makes sense that the avatars haven't changed - the avatars are set according to which gods granted their blessings to humanity in the first place, not according to the current state of the pantheon. This might also explain why we're not seeing any avatars of Kormir.

> @Ronin.7381 said:

> > @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > >

> > > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

> >

> > But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

>

> Why else would he be put in a cage if he posed no threat to the underworld. The Judge is more of an Overseer, appointed by Grenth to guide or direct those that wnader. But unlike the player, Joko was imprisoned because he was never some simple mortal.

As people have said, Balthazar imprisoned Joko, not the Judge. The Judge actually wanted Joko gone because the Judge considered Joko's presence to be destabilising the Domain of the Lost, but the chains were beyond his power to break.

>

> > @EdwinLi.1284 said:

> > I have this strong feeling that LW4 storyline may lead us to a Inquest Asura Gate that leads into Cantha.

> >

> > If the Inquest been in Elona for years without anyone knowing about them until now then it is possible they have a Gate that leads into a Inquest Research base in Cantha they may have secretly set up long ago.

>

> I really-really hope that doesn't become a thing. While I do expect to see the Inquest since Asura used the underground caves of the Dwarves/dredge in Guild Wars 1 (which did reach Cantha), I was hoping Cantha would be more self contained. By that I mean, you have a xenophobic emperor who holds the continent hostage and you have the potential to bring the Tengu into the forefront through the Dominion of Winds.

>

> Out of all the potential new races they could introduce, they could use the Tengu (Dominion of Winds being their starting place) and their whole story is about going home. You could weave into the Tyria campaign where their level 80 quest at the end of Living World brings them back to the DoW where they come to the conclusion that they either need to leave and find a home in Cantha (Shin Jae Islands) or have acquired enough forces to take back/reclaim their homeland.

>

> Cantha then becomes this story of subterfuge, freeing and establishing the Kurzick and Luxons once more while building a Tengu Armada in Cantha - all converges on the Royal Palace to overthrow the empire.

>

>

> Sounds all too fantastical, I admit. And will probably end up disappointed, wouldn't be the first time hahaha

>

The tengu regard the DoW as their homeland, as revealed by prophecy. Shing Jea was just one of the places they lived before their homeland was revealed by the events of the prophecy.

To be honest, I was expecting the same, especially when it was hinted that he now had more seats of government than just the Bone Palace. It could be that the hinted new capital is at Jahai, though - being fairly central to his empire and symbolic of his "victory" over Turai Ossa.

On the topic of Lonai...

While not as significant in Nightfall as the heroes, she did still have a fairly significant role in the early stages of Nightfall. It's probably reasonable to say she's about as significant as Devona, or at least the Ascalonian NPCs that show up in the Catacombs, and thus suitable as a significant villain now. It makes sense that the heroes might be considered to be a step above the other NPCs in willpower such that they're still defying Joko (even as an Awakened in Koss's case) while important non-hero NPCs might be significant enough to become major lieutenants without having the strength of will to resist Joko's control.

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @Ronin.7381 said:

>

> > Well Koss managed to hide away far enough making Joko's influence weak enough to avoid. That's why he stuck it out in the cave and of course it's on Istan which happens to be the furthest place South of Elona. His reluctance to join you proves that he recognizes the threat of loss, that if he did join you - eventually he would be overcome with Joko's influence and lose control of his free will in the current state we see him. Which suggests anybody could do it so long as they maintained sufficient willpower to fight it. Cliche yes but I liked it. As for Lonai, interesting finds; I do wonder what this entails moving forward and how she'll play into it.

>

> Not exactly. The way he describes it, he was compelled to obey Joko's orders to the letter- he just retained enough of his personality to find clever ways to make a nuisance of himself while still fulfilling the wording. It's not really a willpower/resistance thing, so much as it is plain ol' obnoxiousness. Nor is his exile to the cave a distance thing; it's just that as long as he's out and forgotten in the middle of nowhere, no one has come along and given him an order that he'd be bound to obey. Tahlkora, on the other hand, was able to ignore orders entirely, but that was apparently a one-of-a-kind blessing.

>

Pretty much, and it gives us a significant degree of insight into the nature of Joko's control: Awakened (at least some therof) retain free will of a sort, but they are unable to resist Joko's commands (or those of anyone Joko delegates command to).

However, it's still up to the recipient of those orders how they interpret them. Koss basically played the 'evil genie' to the point where he was considered to be more of a liability than an asset, and dumping him in the cave was a means of removing that liability.

What I'm curious about is that we're definitely seeing strong indications that all of this happened while the GW1 Sunspear PC was still around... or at least, likely hadn't died of old age. It might be stuff that was planned to be in Guild Wars Beyond, but it would be good to see some indication of what the PC might have been doing during all this.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > One other possibility is that Joko destroyed them. While the historical record doesn't explicitly mention him until later, I've always had a suspicion that Joko might go back to the later years of the Primeval Dynasty and might even have had a hand in the original Scarab Plague - it's possible that he has some historical grudge with the sisters.

> Didn't the sisters themselves kind of hint at that during PoF when you go to the Tomb of the Primeval Kings? IIRC, they make a big deal about how much they dislike him, and claim that he isn't a Primeval King despite his claims as such.

>

That can be interpreted either way - they might never have known him in life, but they're purred off about what he's been doing since their death, including his usurpation of a title that they consider he has no claim to.

> @"Phoebe Ascension.8437" said:

> Engineer I think has become their 'lazy ele'. Lots of work, but since played by fewer players they put less effort in it. A shame! For instance crazy hard rotation (and if succesful wich is rarely so) still mediocre dps. Hello Anet? For how hard rotation is, dps should be even higher then elementalist. Overall most skills have to few impact (especially long lasting), for the profession to feel good. They keep balancing around the kits wich are quite weak as a weapon replacement (but still very fun to use). One thing they failed at (imo) is not giving holosmith (like warriors) a DOUBLE sword elite spec (just main hand, kitten).

I think the reason why staff elementalist is allowed to have a lot of damage is because a lot of that damage is in the form of area fields and delayed effects that an enemy can simply move out of. When it's so easy to reduce the damage being dealt out by an elementalist simply by moving, it makes sense that their damage output, in ideal conditions, should be higher. While engineer has a few damaging fields, it doesn't rely on them like elementalist does.

Not saying that engineer couldn't stand to be better, but I think the reason why elementalist is 'allowed' more damage is based more on the 'the enemy can move out of it' than 'it requires a complex rotation'. Guardians have a similar effect.

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @ All of the Necromancers saying Anet likes them the least

> >

> > Wait until you get exclusively nerfed for 2-3 years straight before you start start feeling sorry for yourself. lol real talk.

>

> I don't think thief is least liked by Anet per se (and i am thief main). I think thief is more of scapegoat for Anet. The class is easy to hate due to design. You want to calm masses? Implement some nerf to the class to make said masses happy for a while. Also, in my opinion, there is little understanding about the class from the balancing team as well as a lot of unwillingness to understand the class all together. That being said, thief is still in not as bad spot as rev now which has literary no niche and was only created to enforce sales.

>

> > @AsiraasiB.7165 said:

> > If you didn't vote thief then you've never played one

>

> I have over 6k hours on my main thief and couple hundred hours on my alt thief. I think rev is most neglected prof (or rather half finished). Your point?

>

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @AsiraasiB.7165 said:

> > > If you didn't vote thief then you don't main one

> >

> > Fixed that for you.

> >

> > Not saying thief doesn't have its problems as well, but they're certainly not so bad as to be the obvious hatechild to anybody who's ever played one.

>

> Please refrain from generalization. Thank you.

I was working with what I had - I don't actually think that everyone who mains thief thinks that thief is the most neglected profession (although there is a broad tendency for people to think that their main is more neglected than it is compared to other professions). Mostly, I was annoyed by the implicit "anyone who doesn't agree with me doesn't know what they're talking about".

Your 'scapegoat' comment reflects something I've been thinking myself: thief and mesmer are both professions that have unusual mechanics and styles that can require different tactics to deal with, and thus are common targets for calls to be nerfed by people who don't like having to deal with them. Both, however, also have had periods where ArenaNet has given them some pretty nice stuff, and their traitlines function fairly decently. Their treatment can be likened to whipping boys - every so often they're beaten down for something that wasn't really their fault, but they usually get built back up again afterwards.

One other possibility is that Joko destroyed them. While the historical record doesn't explicitly mention him until later, I've always had a suspicion that Joko might go back to the later years of the Primeval Dynasty and might even have had a hand in the original Scarab Plague - it's possible that he has some historical grudge with the sisters.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> I agree with Aaron on this. Please, just let it be Joko and spare us the sudden identity reveal. I'm willing to accept Joko as a villain who is finally being taken seriously as an aggressive warleader. The last thing I want is some kind of "It was actually Lyssa all along!" reveal in the penultimate episode right before the real Joko is killed off in an anticlimactic fight when we finally find him. They only have half a dozen episodes to tell a story. That isn't enough time to build up to a villain swap that feels satisfying. Story length determines complexity and you can only do so much with six episodes.

It is worth noting that S4 may be longer than S3. S3 got held back substantially by the combination of raids and the devs having to recover from the push to get HoT finished on time (HoT was, for a number of reasons, much more rushed than PoF, while PoF seems to have been developed on a more sustainable cadence), being released nine months after HoT, while S4E1 was released at the start of the standard 'window' of 2-3 months between installments right after PoF. If the next expansion spends about as long in development as PoF does, we could probably expect to see S4 having 8-10 installments.

That said...

> @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be peeved if we ended up facing yet another rogue god with a borrowed army right after we just did that plot with Balthazar. Joko has a clear-cut motivation: rule forever and expand his empire. Maybe we'll learn more about his character in the process and finally know his origin story. That's a lot more interesting to me than a plot twist that's not even a twist because we just did it less than a year ago.

>

> Are we discussing what we'd like to see in the upcoming story, or are we discussing what potential things there are based on what's been shown so far?

Is it possible that ArenaNet is pulling a bait-and-switch? Yes, of course it is. It's _always_ possible that things aren't what they appear to be. That part of the discussion is over.

Now we get into the question of... is it _likely?_

In that respect, we need to look deeper at the evidence. There is dialogue in the Domain of the Lost that implies that the chains binding Joko might dissipate on Balthaddon's death - however, the PC does not have the luxury of referring to wikis that we do, so it makes sense that the PC might not have picked up on this, and thus is under the assumption that Joko will remain trapped indefinitely. Therefore, the PC assumes throughout the chapter that Joko is still bound... but comes to the conclusion at the end that he has been released.

It seems unlikely to me that the female mysterious figure is impersonating Joko. It's likely that she's foreshadowing something, but if she is impersonating Joko, why let herself be seen in a non-Joko appearance at all?

On the question of likelihood, the question of whether it's good writing also comes up. There are quite a few people already annoyed with the bait-and-switch of Lazarus and Balthazar, for various reasons. Pulling the same trick in two seasons running would, I think, be a very bad move on ArenaNet's part.

> @Arden.7480 said:

> > @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > >

> > > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

> >

> > But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

>

> The Judge is not doing his job... he freed us while he shouldn't... So Joko threatened him or something and the judge opened the gate- easy.

I wouldn't say that the Judge shouldn't have freed us, actually. It was a plot point in GW1 that Grenth wasn't opposed to resurrection, and there's also an event in GW1 where the PCs are killed and where envoys serving Grenth resurrect them in order to fight someone who the envoys would like to see defeated. So I'd say that it's actually established policy for Grenth's servants to resurrect heroes who can defeat someone whom Grenth considers an enemy.

With respect to Joko... it's mentioned in The Departing that Joko's presence is problematic for the Domain of the Lost. As long as Joko didn't try to drag any spirits along with him, the Judge would probably consider it the lesser evil to allow him to return to Tyria once Balthazar's chains broke.

From my observation of the Paragons in Istan, they pretty much felt like variant Guardians. Anthem of Flame is really just vanilla VoJ active in effect, and I _think_ I saw the enemy Paragons generating symbols, although I may be mistaken in that respect.

The regular enemy dervishes felt a bit like variant reapers, albeit using scythes as their primary weapon instead of greatswords and not having Reaper Shroud at all. Warden Amala is, of course, a pretty significant exception, but while some of the PoF elites have clearly been created by humans, none of them are as strongly tied to human culture and religion as dervish avatars.

While it _could_ be an indication of what might be coming in the future, I'd have to say that my guess is that the paragons and dervishes are there more for nostalgia for the past, and, bosses excepted, they're pretty much just putting a new coat of paint on things that already existed in GW2.

The alchemists essentially felt to me like primitive engineers, only having the potions and explosives rather than any of the more technical stuff.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @nighthawke.3075 said:

> > > @"Amanda Whitemoon.6173" said:

> > > Was it just me not noticing before but when i battled the jailer with that scythe, (when taimi keeps talking that she is in danger) it looked like balthazar, using alot of fire magic, but after i killed her she reverted back to awakened state, what was that all about?

> >

> > She's adervish from GW1 and as such was using dervish avatar skills. [Avatar of Grenth](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Grenth "Avatar of Grenth") & [Avatar of Balthazar](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Balthazar "Avatar of Balthazar")

> >

> > which on a only somewhat related note really aggravates me that they didn't add scythe and spear as new weapons. :angry:

>

> Given that there are now a handful of scythe animations, we may see scythe as a new elite spec weapon for the next expansion. Possibly even land spears too, despite the lore of Joko banning them (which makes their use in Istan among our enemies weird to me).

Could be a case of "banned, _unless_ you're someone who's loyalty is beyond doubt".

Or Istan had different rules than the mainland.

Or whoever put them in forgot that little detail...

> @Soruf.4875 said:

> Well we can look at the facts.

> - We know Joko was left in the Realm of the Lost but could of some how escaped?? (doubt it tbh)

> - Balthazar is dead.

Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> Speaking of the Scarab Plague and Joko's mysteriously acquired interest in 'bugs', is there any chance that the empty specimen tanks below the royal chamber in Fahranur were holding scarabs? He could have had the Inquest working to reproduce the plague and turn it into a biological weapon for his war of conquest since it probably can't hurt his undead troops but it could decimate the living. I'm not sure if my instance was glitching or not but all of the tanks were empty when I found them after the end fight.

It's possible? The Scarab Plague, from what we were able to find out about it in _Nightfall,_ appears to be a natural occurrence: eggs from a particular species of scarab managed to get into the grain and, when eaten, survived the digestion process, hatched inside people, and ate them from the inside out. Joko would probably be quite interested in identifying the specific species so he could repeat it.

Mind you, note that "appears to be": the scarab eggs responsible could have been deliberately introduced by someone the first time. Possibly even Joko himself - undead insects have been part of the necromancer's toolkit throughout the life of _Guild Wars,_ and if the scarabs were undead it might explain how they apparently "survived" being eaten, and likely cooked and milled as well.

> @AsiraasiB.7165 said:

> If you didn't vote thief then you don't main one

Fixed that for you.

Not saying thief doesn't have its problems as well, but they're certainly not so bad as to be the obvious hatechild to anybody who's ever played one.

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17155/ending-credits-for-pof

> > >

> > > They are not making new credits. So many writers we know are from the core game credit list (or cause they made themself known to us by posting here, or appearing on the guildtalk vids). With that source out we have a harder time knowing the devs.

> >

> > Well, the people who have left seem to have been around long enough to contribute to PoF, so they'll be on the credits. It'll be the credits for the _next_ expansion that tell us who was still around _now._

>

> Did you actually read the linked article? they do not publish credit lists anymore.

Ah. No, I didn't - my apologies. I drew my interpretation from what was in your post at the time.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

>

> And it _could_ have been a coincidence, but I believe someone mentioned Zinn's creations being used in the past in a failed assassination attempt against certain world leaders and Joko being involved somehow? If that's true then I think there's something poetic about the Inquest, those who consider themselves to be Zinn's spiritual successors, being duped a few hundred years later into helping Joko with an even more massive invasion of Tyria.

Oh, yeah, I'd actually forgotten that, but there was something - in Episode 5, I think? - that implied that Joko was the 'mysterious stranger'. Not 100% conclusive, IIRC (haven't been able to relocate the source quickly), but certainly suggestive. (Gotta admit, though, that feels a bit like back-fill for something that was originally intended to be something else: apart from the attempt on Kisu, the targets didn't really seem as if they were making the subjects more ripe for conquest: taking Salma out _before_ the War in Kryta, for instance, might actually have made Kryta harder to conquer by allowing the White Mantle to tighten their grasp. It's possible that Joko had an arrangement with the mursaat, though...)

> @"Mephu Tahm Jr.1962" said:

> The Inquest are after one and only one thing: power, at any cost.

>

> While the Inquest might have followed Kralkatorrik south, that doesn't explain how they found out about Farahnur, nor why it was valuable to them. They might have collaborated with Joko for promises of power but still it doesn't explain why they would go to the effort of building a full blown lab there; also knowing the Inquest they would have been extremely reluctant to consider Joko an equal collaborator as he is not an asura.

>

> I think a better explanation is that Farahnur showed up on their map as a source of ley magic and this first attracted Zinn and later the Inquest. The fact that the core is blatantly labeled "ley-line core" confirms this, as there would really be no other reason for the Inquest to be interested. It is possible that when Kralkatorrik flew by, it greatly intensified Farahnur's magical readings via relevant ley lines, compelling the Inquest discovery. And like Canach said, Joko probably found out via Awakening a stray Inquest, then as the player character was trying to escape the Great Hall, Joko was raiding the Inquest lab and sending out the Awakened.

>

> However he probably doesn't know that the Pact has already slain an Elder Dragon with the same powers as his.

If you check out the school in Vabbi, Joko certainly knows about the Elder Dragons that were killed - in fact, he appears to be well informed about _how_ they died, or at least how they died _physically_ in the case of Mordremoth (while he claims the credit, it's likely that he knows the truth). However, Joko probably thinks he's smarter than Zhaitan... and to give him his due, he's probably right.

Regarding Fahrunar: Fahrunar is practically the Arah of Elona. Okay, it's not AS significant, but it was the site of the Apocrypha as well as the Scarab Plague, each of which would potentially interest the Inquest, and simply being a pre-Exodus human capital in and of itself raises the possibility that it might contain further interesting artifacts and/or have something significant about the location itself. So I would certainly consider it to be the sort of location that the Inquest would be interested in.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> The Inquest did team up with pirates at some point to form the Aetherblades due to Scarlet's influence so I wouldn't rule their collaboration out completely. I'm not sure _why_ they did the whole Aetherblade thing with Scarlet or what was in it for them, but who knows. One obvious perk is that research ethics are lax in Joko's empire, he has loads of money and may have been willing to fund a large-scale project.

Yeah, the Inquest have shown that they're willing to collaborate, as long as they think they're getting a net profit from the deal. (It is worth noting, however, that the Inquest were possibly the only organisation that fell under Scarlet's influence that worked itself back out again.)

> @twobears.5713 said:

> In the end, isn't Joko's attempted invasion of Tyria just a hollow threat? Looking at it objectively, the Awakened forces and the Mordant Crescent are barely able to suppress open revolt in their own lands. How conceivable is it for Pawala Joko to launch an invasion of conquest and hope to be successful against what would almost certainly be the combined forces of Divinity's Reach, Rata Sum, Hoelbrak, the Black Citadel, the Grove and Lion's Arch. As Rytlock pointed out in the end, the Awakened would face the full might of the High Legions, which alone would probably wipe out the invaders. Charr civilization is built for war.'

>

> What is really interesting going forward is how Joko intends to take revenge on the Commander. Clearly all of this is intended as payback, so it will be for us to see just who is targeted, just as Taimi was here.

In addition to what DorDor said...

He was going for a knockout blow before his targets could rally their forces.

In pure military terms, he shouldn't have been able to seize Elona either. His first invasion, that Turai defeated, started with a surprise attack through a mountain range that the Vabbians thought was impassable (and which probably was if it wasn't for the tunnel - said tunnel, incidentally, seems to be how we get from the Desolation to the Domain of Vabbi now). The second invasion, which succeeded, didn't succeed by direct military means, but by Joko diverting the Elon and starving Elona into submission.

His portal attack was essentially an attempt to repeat his original success in Vabbi. The nations of Tyria would not have been expecting an invasion through portals opening right into their capital city, so under the circumstance it seems reasonable for Joko to have hoped to achieve a knockout blow that would have delivered him one or more of Tyria's capitals. It currently seems as if he didn't pull that off (I don't think ArenaNet would pull a "one of the capitals had fallen to the enemy months ago" in a future update), but if he'd managed to take, say, Divinity's Reach or the Black Citadel, then it might not matter how many Seraph or angry charr were outside the walls - the damage would already have been done.

Now that the conventional surprise attack has apparently failed, he may now be looking for the equivalent of the diverging of the Elon: some way to strike at one of the nations without having to face their strength directly.

Wait, so you're admitting that Palawa Joko might actually have been a genuine threat to Tyria without provocation? Who are you and what did you do with Athrenn?

That said, Crinn's observation is on point - we don't know if it was collaboration or whether the Inquest were trying to avoid Joko's notice. Obviously he found them out in the end, and it _could_ have started as a collaboration, but it could also have been just as one of the characters supposed: Joko found an Inquest agent, killed, Awakened, and interrogated said agent, and got what he needed to know that way. All of the Inquest we saw did appear to be Awakened.

Other dialogue in the instance indicates that being able to open portals without a receiving gate is likely a recent development, coming from Zinn's data in Rata Novus and Draconis Mons.

That said, with regard to the dates: Unless the console's clock is wrong, it probably is reasonable to say that your calculation is accurate to within a month or so. I don't think it's necessarily a 1:1 conversion any more... but I suspect it still is unless there's good reason for there to be otherwise. Certainly, we can probably say with a high degree of confidence that the "present" date in Tyria is somewhere in the Season of the Colossus in 1330AE (namely, after Halloween, but before Wintersday).

> @gmugen.9382 said:

> I feel like there's more going on then what everyone (Gods/NPCs) are saying. And I believe if we go back and look at things differently we might find where this story may lead. These ideas are just that, ideas.

>

>

> Daybreak Speculation: I personally don't believe Rytlock and to an extent Kormir. I find them both unreliable. We travel south come across Corsairs (maybe a descendant of Magrid the Sly) and see what's become of Kourna. Turai's Procession is changed to Joko Rise or something. And Jahai Bluffs is a jail/slave camp for those who resist Joko. We might come across some centaurs who are following Zhed's path. Aurene goes a little insane after she digested whatever magic Balthazar had and because of the death of Vlast. Eventually she snaps out of it but after she goes on a rampage. We learn that Istan is going through an internal conflict. The Council of Elders are manipulated by Joko and the civilians are starting to see this and want a change. They also heard about Vabbi and Kralka. Also, we might meet a Canthan somewhere in Kamadan.

>

Two issues with your speculation:

First, the gods definitely did know about the dragons before Abaddon's banishment, or at least before the Exodus. Most of what the Priory knows comes from a (damaged) scroll that the gods left behind.

Second, the gods knew that Abaddon could influence Tyria, as long as anybody on Tyria remembered Abaddon. That's why they did their best to make him forgotten.

> @twobears.5713 said:

> The six that have historically been the Living World crew have been paired up over time. Marjory and Kasmeer, Braham and Rox, and as of season 3 the Commander and Taimi. I rank the parings as follows.

>

> 1. The Commander and Taimi -- Self explanatory as I am the Commander.

> 2. Braham and Rox -- Braham is interesting as an anti-hero because he and the Commander don't get along anymore. Rox is interesting because we don't know who she is going to side with in the impending showdown.

> 3. Marjory and Kasmeer -- Up until Braham went mopey Kasmeer had the angst market cornered. Since that point that drama has shifted into sort of a high school drama with Marjory. Not a fan.

>

> And so, no I am not looking forward to more Marjory and Kasmeer. I'd much rather have this face off with Braham. That kid needs a spanking.

Braham's always been angsty, it's just that after the initial introductions it wasn't rubbed in our faces, and Season 2 was a 'give him hope so it hurts even more when it gets cruelly snatched away' season. Season 1 Braham was a mix of mommy abandonment issues and girlfriend abandonment issues.

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17155/ending-credits-for-pof

>

> They are not making new credits. So many writers we know are from the core game credit list (or cause they made themself known to us by posting here, or appearing on the guildtalk vids). With that source out we have a harder time knowing the devs.

Well, the people who have left seem to have been around long enough to contribute to PoF, so they'll be on the credits. It'll be the credits for the _next_ expansion that tell us who was still around _now._

So...

I'd been deliberately avoiding this thread since my last post, on the basis that there was no point continuing the debate with possibly decisive new evidence only a couple of days away.

Now that it's here, I think the evidence speaks for itself.

And I've pointed out that according to the mores of the people of Tyria, what Palawa Joko is doing is wrong.

And there are plenty of examples of people within Elona who think Joko is a tyrant. Those who have bought into his propaganda (including that moment in the clanmarshal's pagoda event chain where the friendly NPC expresses the belief that Joko would fix everything) are _supposed_ to be cringe moments for the player base, and if we are only allowed to consider the opinions of those who have drunk the proverbial Kool-Aid and who remain ignorant of a ruler's worst excesses, then _nobody_ can be said to be a bad ruler. I'm sure we can all think of examples of rulers which are almost universally condemned, including by the people they once ruled after the fact, but who had their supporters while in power, especially before the full extent of what they were responsible for became common knowledge.

It's becoming increasingly clear, however, that from the perspective of the writers, Joko is a villain, a despot, a tyrant, and, overall, a ruler who is bad for Elona. We are not supposed to sympathise with or support him because of the proportion of his population that are _not_ living in constant fear of being arbitrarily murdered or exiled to a slave camp.

> @Ellisande.5218 said:

> Warhorns, torches and scepters are not weapons. GW2 trying to make them weapons is one the most stupid things. Staves aren't even weapons in the way that GW2 uses them. The GW2 team should just dump staves and use free hand magic. Staves as a weapon are heavy heartwood and are a cheap replacement for spears, hammers and halberds, especially in cultures where the population was forbidden from owning an actual weapon.

>

> It would be nice to see the addition of halberds and spears as well as free hand casting without a weapon.

The term 'weapon', in GW2, covers tools and implements as well as weapons. A scepter is effectively a weapon when it's used to channel magic attacks, even if you don't physically strike someone with it. A torch absolutely is a weapon if you're using it to set someone on fire, albeit generally not as efficient as conventional weapons unless your primary goal is to set a building on fire rather than to kill an enemy soldier - but in the GW2 context, it makes sense as a focus for fire-related magic (which is how most professions use it). Warhorns are a tool for communication and inspiration, and just as valid as a potential offhand as a focus.

"Freehand magic" isn't used because GW2's skill system and balance is based around weapons. You'd need to completely redesign the skill system to change that.