draxynnic.3719

> @"Narcemus.1348" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > , including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself.

> > I don't know where you got the idea that D'Alessio Seaboard is claimed by the Dominion of Winds, but that it patently false, are you confused with Sanctum Cay?

>

> My guess would be that he is talking about the Tengu gate in the southwest corner of Lion's arch leading to what was D'Alessio Seaboard, which means that at least some of the area has been claimed by the dominion.

Yes, this. You'll note that I said "apparently", as I don't believe it's been confirmed - however, they certainly have claimed the gate leading to the Seaboard from Lion's Arch. There is also, incidentally, little evidence of Krytan forces holding anything closer to the Seaboard than Nebo Terrace or Uzolan's Estate.

The presence of the Tenguwall along the southern border of Kessex is additional evidence of the DoW having claimed more than Sanctum Cay, although that section of mainland Tengu territory doesn't connect to the Seaboard.

In terms of population in comparison to the charr (which are really the only competition here):

The charr have a large and undefined territory off-map, but they probably aren't able to maintain the population from that territory that humans would. Their size means they're going to need more food to begin with - for the sake of argument, let's say that twice the size means twice as much food. Worse, the fact that they're mostly carnivorous significantly expands the amount of territory needed to sustain a given population: while it varies with choice of food animal, I think the rule of thumb is that a carnivorous or mostly-carnivorous animal requires about ten times as much territory as a herbivorous or omnivorous animal of similar size in order to sustain itself. So it'd probably take about twenty times the territory for the charr to maintain the same population as humans.

Once you've included Elona, Cantha, and any other human realms there may be elsewhere in the world, I'd be surprised if the charr have _that_ much territory.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> -In Tyria proper, Ascalon and Orr are still both destroyed, as they have been since Guild wars 1 began, and Kryta is far more developed then it was back in Guild Wars 1, with its only major problem being a centaur war that only happened because of Caudecus, and hes dead, the centaur leader is dead, and the centaurs have been driven off back into the Woodland Cascade area. So, even in Tyria, there has been a relatively zero gain or loss for human footing,

Kryta's lost about half of its territory since GW1, mostly in the south and west, in exchange for _possibly_ having expanded northwards somewhat. Furthermore, the lost territories included some of the formerly most populated, including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself. Shaemoor and the Ascalon Settlement are probably the largest GW1 Krytan settlements that remain in Krytan hands. Even in more recent times, they've lost parts of Kessex. They've advanced in technology and may be in a position to rebound somewhat, but Kryta has declined since GW1, mostly due to Zhaitan - given that Garrenhoff has been said to be Krytan only on maps in Divinity's Reach, Kryta has basically lost all access to the Sea of Sorrows.

> @"Reincarnatie.7254" said:

> According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn.

>

> It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species.

>

> The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon...

> But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole.

>

> It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society.

I've never considered Cepha's "research" to be legitimate. It feels too much like the asura equivalent of how craniometry and similar pseudosciences was used in the real world to justify the idea that Caucasians were inherently superior to other ethnic groups.

And, similar to the real world, "most advanced" does not necessarily translate into "most intelligent".

It's also worth noting that the Shiverpeaks probably aren't always as snowed-over as they're shown to be. Anywhere there's a forest, there needs to be at least _some_ period of the year where the ground is clear, even if it's shown as covered in snow in-game. (Unless the trees have been somehow preserved from a time when that was the case, which might be what's going on with the forest in the northwest corner of the S3E3 map.)

As Narcemus says. We can't base the entire race on what the most impressive member of their kind did. What stat boosts and special abilities would we be giving to humans if we used Jennah or the GW1 PC as the baseline?

Half-orcs, incidentally, are +2Str, -2Int, -2Cha in 3.5. More recent editions might be different, but you did say you were using a 3.5 basis.

Another couple of things to consider:

First, the Powerful Build trait also grants additional benefits normally associated with a higher Strength - it basically makes members of the race treated as being Large for many things in which being Large is an advantage. I don't think norn are necessarily as strong as goliaths, so +2 and the Powerful Build trait is probably reasonable.

Second, when looking at things in D&D terms, one thing to consider is average level. Norn culture is such that pretty much every adult norn likely has at least a few PC class levels under their belt. Some of their power comes not from being _inherently_ better, but because the typical norn is probably something like a level 4 ranger where the typical charr is a level 1 soldier. The stories of things like one norn taking on a whole charr warband and so on probably comes from this more than it comes from direct physical attributes.

Yeah, I think a lot of asura society is actually based on the idea of counteracting the natural asura tendency towards hiding their discoveries out of paranoia. That was the whole initial reasoning behind the founding of the Inquest, after all, and things like the Snaff Prize are likely an effort to encourage asura to share through less autocratic means.

> @"Lametoile.7394" said:

> >> @"Rognik.2579" said:

>

> > @Lametoile.7394, those are some interesting stats but I think we should talk more about them. For one thing, which version of D&D do you imagine those for? 5th ed only gives racial bonuses, making the -2 strength on asura odd, but 3.5 usually had as many minuses as pluses to balance a race. When a race had a net bonus in racial stats, it took a penalty in experience gain.

>

> I use 3.5 version, the only one that matters for me, though i have many problems with it but that's not the subject...

>

> As I said, the races are unbalanced. I didn't want to balance them but to show the stats they would REALLY have. Charrs are much more powerful than humans, you just can't ignore it. They would obviously be level adjustment (like 2-3 for Norns and charrs and maybe 1 for asura) but that's odd.

> As a matter of fact, I created a rpg version of guild wars universe that have some racial balance but I'm not completely happy with the rules.

Pretty sure there's at least some Pathfinder mixed in there...

I think it is possible to balance them.

For instance, I don't think asura are _actually_ so smart as to warrant +4 Int. +2 Int is probably sufficient.

Sylvari could probably be left as flat stats - they often have endearing attitudes, but that's not really what Charisma represents.

Charr and norn would probably require a level adjustment, although it probably could be kept to +1. Both would have the Powerful Build trait.

Charr would not necessarily have +2 dex (they're agile for their size, but they're still big) and I think a -2 to Wisdom might actually be justified. Possibly even a -2 to Charisma, albeit one more than offset by a bonus to Intimidate: the mentality of the average charr tends towards threats and bluster. Olmakhan might break this mould, but then, given how many elf subraces there are in D&D, charr could probably have subraces sorted by legion, with the Olmakhan using the Flame Legion basic characteristics.

Norn could also potentially be limited to +2 strength and +2 con - there's no indication that they're wiser than the other races, and in fact there's some indication that the average norn is quite foolhardy, but since they also have a strong shamanic tradition I'm not inclined to give them a penalty there. A Charisma penalty, however, could be justified - most norn do not do well in groups, and they have many of the same traits that justify the Charisma penalty for D&D dwarves.

It's been explicitly stated by ArenaNet that the asura have lost what would otherwise be major advancements due to the asura being paranoid and not sharing their stuff.

Something to remember here is that the asura are not monolithic. Some are happy to share as long as they get due credit. Some will sell their inventions, but jealously guard how they work and how to reproduce them until they die, and perhaps even then only allowing it to be passed on to select apprentices. And some take active steps to ensure that their work cannot be "stolen" even after they're dead and gone - Blimm and Oola both fit into this category. And this is not necessarily even consistent when talking about a single, given asura: there might be some discoveries that a given asura is eager to spread far and wide and others that they want to keep for themselves even long after they're dead.

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > Seriously though, I’m surprised this isn’t more commonplace in Asura circles. One can easily imagine an eccentric old genius undergoing it because “the world needs my intellect!” or feeling that their work isn’t completed. Kinda the same reason why people decide to undergo the ritual of becoming a lich, really. It is similar to lichdom, innit? An Asura cheating death just to be able to learn all there is to learn is certainly a feasible scenario.

> >

> > Perhaps there is a great cultural taboo against it in Asura culture to discourage it, or perhaps Blish was the first to ever figure out how to do it?

>

> We do see, in the asura personal story, that there were... complications to the procedure. Lots of mentions of how the meld can be lethal, and even when it isn't, integrating with the golem's programming can drive you insane, subsume your personality altogether, and even in a successful case, leave you in a state that's not quite you. Whatever Blish did to avoid that, it'd be either a recent advancement or an immense stroke of luck.

There's also an event in Metrica that shows that Oola has linked her spirit to a golem - however, she hasn't shared the secret, and the melding doesn't seem to be as complete as Blish.

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> Besides them, the Charr also speak for themselves when it comes to their capabilities, but I wouldn't look past humans either. The Watchknights they designed and revealed at the first Queen's Jubilee were quite a feet of engineering, and were sentient constructs made to follow human commands (they could be considered comparable to Asura golems from a technological standpoint, though also different in terms of their construction). Of course, they were corrupted by Scarlet shortly after and haven't seen use since (perhaps because of fear), but I think it's a good example of human ingenuity, especially when an evil scientist on Scarlet's level believes your work is good enough to steal and use for her own ends.

One thing that does pull the Watchknights down as an accomplishment is that they were made by reverse-engineering steam creatures, which were revealed (some would say retconned) to have been made by Scarlet - which is how she was able to seize control of them. There was still enough of their original programming built in that Scarlet was able to use her command codes.

That said, they HAVE been seen since - there are Watchknights among the Queen's forces in S3E4. Supposedly the security hole has been patched, but not everyone is convinced yet.

> @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> All others got so far far more attention, than rox, Marjory, kasmee, Rytlock ,even Braham and Taimi, all of them have changed over tiem and progressed in their personalities.. Rox - nothing /sad

To be fair, it does seem as if Rox may be being set up for some character development now. She was showing a _lot_ of interest in the Olmakhan.

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Please just remember that the concept of "Intelligence" is not very clear, even in the real world...

> You need an specific measuring tool, first, and then, you inevitably limit the concept to such measuring tool. It is really annoying.

>

> It's clear Asuras like to delve into intellectual terrain. However, does that makes them more intelligent? It's clear it doesn't make them less stupid.

> Similar applies for all the races, and for each individual, in fact.

Pretty much. Asura are the most scientifically advanced and have the best education, but that doesn't stop them from being colossal morons in other aspects. It's quite hard to establish if any of the races are actually more intelligent, or whether it's that they have different focuses culturally that leads them to use their intelligence in different ways.

If there _is_ a most intelligent race, it's probably still the asura. But they tend to be lacking in wisdom.

Just about everything in GW1, although they had some help in EOTN...

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> And that's before you factor in the human's unique talent for magic. Unlike the asura, who are reliant on gadgets and gizmos, the humans can practise magic like a bard practises music, you just go out and do it. So humans are capable of doing pretty much anything they set their mind to and for less cost than asura, charr, or norn would be able to. We don't know enough about the Sylvari at this point, but I guess their numbers are extemely limited due to the pale tree being the only (known) source of new sylvari.

On this note:

There's not really anything to indicate that humans are faster at learning the more basic levels of magic than other races, including asura. We see a lot of spellcasters among the Inquest and asura members of the Pact, for instance, and none of them seem reliant on gizmos beyond the spellcasting focii everyone uses. It's just that when you get to the boss-level enemies, an asura champion is likely to be in a golem and/or using some technomagical device, while a human champion is more likely to simply wield raw magical power.

There does, however, seem to be a higher rate of humans getting to the very top levels. Whether that's inherent talent, cultural, or simply a matter of numbers is ambiguous. Other races are _capable_ of reaching similar levels, but there are less examples of it, and I don't think there's any friendly NPC of a playable race that's shown to be as powerful as Jennah.

(Mind you, we can't say for sure that Jennah pulled off her city-dome trick alone.)

Culturally, humans also have a higher focus on magic than the allied charr legions or the norn. Sylvari might actually have a higher aptitude for magic as a race, but there's less of them, and Faolain and Trahearne were probably the most powerful sylvari NPCs magically that we've seen thus far. I'd happily bet on Jennah against either of them.

> @"Manpag.6421" said:

> D ) As has been said, this is just a limitation of gameplay mechanics. In GW1 a lot more monsters were immune to particular conditions than in GW2, where only a few have immunity. Interestingly, Joko's undead have _always_ been fleshy and so vulnerable to bleed and poison. I suppose even a magically-reanimated human body is still, at its core, a human body with all the vulnerabilities that entails. An alternative take is that poison isn't universal, and our characters are sensibly adjusting the poison we apply to the creature we're facing. For instance, anti-freeze would act as poison to an Ice Elemental. Given that the Awakened are partially held together with tar, some sort of corrosive substance could break that down and work like a poison.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I'm reminded somewhat of the Warhammer approach, where it's stated that units and characters that use poison, when confronted with undead, demons, or other creatures that would be immune to conventional poisons, switch to using something that acts as a poison against the target: things like using antiseptic against plague demons and holy water against undead.

Guild Wars has never explicitly stated anything along those lines, but it would make sense that even if Awakened are immune to most poisons, there is something out there that can get into their tarstream and weaken them in a similar manner to a poison.

> @"Djahlat.9610" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > @"Djahlat.9610" said:

> > > > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > > I think we cannot say exactly who patronizes the Space or something related to it. [...]

> > >

> > > I think the argument you're making doesn't really advance the discussion because it can be applied to virtually anything in the Lore. You could say the same about every domain that the gods oversee, like Fire: it's technically Balthazar's, but creates Light (Dwayna), is an inherent part of nature (Melandru), etc.

> > > I do agree, in that sense, that intersectionality of dominionship for Tyrian gods is undeniable, but still I am asking which one god people think is primarily associated with space and celestial bodies.

> > >

> > > Hope that clears the question!

> >

> > As I said _They are all united, so we cannot tell exactly who patronizes what._

> >

> > Balthazar- never been stated he was controlling space

> > Grenth- neither

> > Melandru- neither

> > Kormir- neither

> > Lyssa- neither

> > Dwayna- neither

>

> I think I got a better idea of the point you're getting across, but the reason for my post was to open the discussion for speculating. I know there's nothing canon about space, I just wanted to read what people had to say about it.

> So, knowing that the Six oversee everything that has to do with the life of Tyrans, which one would you best imagine to be associated with the vastness of space and celestial bodies?

>

>

Three options:

Dwayna, because she seems to be associated with pretty much everything else related to the sky.

Lyssa, because of her association with beauty.

Or, the complex one: Grenth. There is the lore about certain individuals being recognised by being placed among the stars (the Celestials in Canthan lore) - Grenth would be the most logical god to be making those decisions.

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"DawnSketch.7105" said:

> > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > Its been way too happy-go-lucky lately, I doubt anet will pull a plague stunt.

> >

> > Two main characters are perma dead, one of which was brutally tortured before we had to kill him by our own hand and one 'died' in PoF. Two more are most likely permanently crippled. Jory almost died from being lit on fire by Balthy, Timi almost suffocated (, her 'friend' died and was shoved in a robot) and is now super depressed, Canach almost kills the whole group (on accident) with a ceiling and is covering his mental distress with silly quips, Rytlock is also deflecting to hid his own emotional distress. To top it off the PC is fraying at the seams. How is this 'Happy-go-Lucky'???

> >

> > Moreover, Joko throws the plag in the portal. The already pulled the plague stunt friend.

>

> I’m not saying bad stuff doesn’t happen, but everytime its like

> “Oops, he he”

> “NOO!! .. oh well”

> “Those people died, better make a funny joke to lighten everyone’s moods”

And part of that is likely the 'if you don't laugh, you cry' effect. If I recall correctly, in fact, there are a few researchers who theorise that humour and laughter evolved as a stress relief mechanism.

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> So, if your argument is that there are obviously many sylvari spellcasters in the Pact- even though we never see them- doesn't that go the other way too? If Pact spellcasters exist without us seeing them, couldn't Mordrem spellcasters exist without us seeing them?

I've always thought that Mordrem Guard Tormentors appeared to have a mix of necromancy with Mordremoth's plant powers.

Broadly speaking, one other possibility is that sylvari spellcasters were less likely to succumb to Mordremoth in the first place, due to having more disciplined minds or possibly even recognising what's happening in the first place.

Magic is, I think, an important part of the puzzle, as people have pointed out before. People point at the asura as being the most magical race, but that's only partially correct - the asura are the most _technomagical_ race. Asura generally don't become incredibly powerful spellcasters through 'classical' means - their magical power comes through treating magic as a science, concentrating it into power storage devices and channeling it through technomagical constructions in order to increase their power. If you go through most asura enemies that are champions or above, they often get their power through some sort of device.

Humans, however, have a more instinctive feel for magic. Most magic-using humans are on the same level as other races, but when you come across someone from one of the modern races who has immense magical power without the aid of asura technomancy, it's usually a human. Humans also explicitly invented the guardian profession, and had strong influences over most other professions.

One thing that also often gets overlooked is that while humans are often aggressors, they can also be one of the races most inclined towards cooperating with others. THe had the alliance with the dwarves in GW1, and in EOTN and the years afterwards, it was humans that brought the asura and norn together. There's an mention in an obscure and now hard-to-find interview that after the disastrous first contact with asura, humans were the first race that sylvari had a positive first contact with, and humans (along with sylvari) are one of the races that is most open to welcoming refugees from other races into their territories, including quaggan and skritt.

One thing that I haven't seen brought up is that armour technology appears to be significantly greater in Tyria than in the historical Renaissance and early modern era. Guns defeated armour historically because a point was reached where, although steel armour could still be made that worked, it was so heavy that it was no longer worth it. When Tyria has access to the likes of darksteel, mithril, orichalcum, and Deldrimor steel, it's possible that it's still quite practical to make armour that can hold up against bullets... even magically enhanced ones. But the same exotic materials can be used for making swords and hammers.

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"cyhadam.3082" said:

> > If guns exist in Tyria, why does it make sense to use swords or shields? Are the guns and pistols not as powerful as I think? Thanks.

>

> Because guns aren't actually that good? Guns did not replace bows because guns are better, guns replaced bows because it requires significantly less training to use a gun at a acceptable level than it does to use a bow. To use a Longbow at a proficient level requires a couple years of training to master, while teaching someone to use a gun takes but a few days training. Guns allowed nations to change their militarys from extremely small but elite groups whos numbers where generally counted in the hundreds, to large armies of conscripts who numbered in the thousands.

>

> As for guns vs swords, the reason soldiers where not equipped with swords was because it's cheaper to equip all your musketeers with bayonets than it is to equip them with swords. Also using a sword well requires lots of training and sparring, while bayonets require almost no training.

>

Bayonets were also used because it allowed musketeers to also act as ersatz pikemen, and in most battlefield situations, a unit of spearmen is more tactically useful than a unit of swordsmen - swords are generally better for single combat situations, or at least in situations where you don't need to worry about enemy cavalry. Socket bayonets also made it so that soldiers could still shoot while remaining ready for a possible melee engagement.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> One would lead me to think that shadow would reflect the thieves' abilities given they use shadow arts/magic too. But we never really see risen cloak themselves or shadowstepping - not in large, only unique individuals, but we see such among all scopes of professions among risen.

>

Risen Nobles shadowstep - but that could just be an indication of what profession they were in life.

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Last season we had a machine that solved our dragon problem in one episode, so assuming that we need two seasons to figure out how to keep the world safe from kralk’s death is kind of irrelevant.

The machine didn't solve the problem. The entire point was that while the machine could _kill_ the two dragons, it would do so in a way that would release a catastrophic surge of magic that would destroy Tyria. That's not a solution, that's MAD.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Here is the thing, they wouldn't be solved, and they SHOULDN'T be solved, because things like usurping a dictator who has ruled for hundreds of years, reforming what was a large religious/military order, and bridging a gap between two splinter groups that came from the same source, aren't things that can be solved in a year or two's time. At most, we should get the ball rolling on these things, and leave Elona knowing its heading to a better path.

So, how many times in Guild Wars have we left a situation knowing it's heading to a better path, and come back later to find that no, if anything it's gotten worse?

In the Guild Wars franchise, it's never safe to leave a problem until you've torn it out by the root and burned it. Of course, sometimes you _have_ to, because you have a bigger, more pressing problem to deal with elsewhere. But years of experience with the franchise have shown that you can _never_ assume that you've passed a tipping point and the situation will get better on its own without the continued intervention of the PC.

> @"Weindrasi.3805" said:

> This is an interesting theory, but how then would you account for player professions? You can have a female charr fire elementalist, and a male charr air elementalist.

There's actually a few potential answers to this:

One is that magic has changed. In GW1's time, most elementalists had to choose one or two elements to focus on, while in GW2, attunement-switching is the norm. Rules that applied during a time when the Flame Legion allowed female shamans may not apply currently.

A second is that the Flame Legion uses elemental magic somewhat differently. This ties somewhat into the previous: what few elementalists we see among the other Legions appear to have picked up the knowledge of other races, while the Flame Legion has gone in its own direction which continues to be highly specialised into a specific element. So the Flame Legion - and possibly the Olmakhan - may be continuing to follow rules of magic that PC elementalists consider obsolete.

A third possibility comes from the observation that ArenaNet acknowledged a long time ago that some races _are_ more suitable to certain professions than others, but that they chose not to reflect this in mechanics in order to avoid punishing players for choosing unusual combinations: the assumption is that the PC is a sufficiently impressive individual that they can overcome the normal weaknesses of their race if they so chose, and instead racial tendencies are shown through NPCs. A similar principle could apply to the gender of charr PC elementalists - _normally_ charr females are better at using air magic, but a charr PC elementalist of either gender is an exceptional enough individual to overcome their gender and use all forms of magic equally (subject to trait distribution, skill choice, and other build decisions).

Mind you, it's entirely possible that we're not seeing an innate distinction, but rather an expression of pre-Bathea Flame Legion beliefs. It's possible that the Flame Legion simply believed that some magic types were better suited to females and some to males. This could have been a relatively benign form of sexism (males and females are equal, but certain roles are seen as feminine and some as masculine) or patriarchal (we consider fire magic to be a strong magic only suitable for strong males, while air magic is a weak magic suitable for weak females to use).

From memory on the Vigil storyline, Ajax Anvilburn was _a_ leader of the Renegades, and a particularly effective one because he had a finer grasp of tactics than most, but the renegades existed before him and can be presumed to continue to exist after he's gone.

There was prerelease information suggesting that Bangar wasn't too happy about the truce, although he isn't in a position to do anything about it overtly (it's Smodur's theater of battle and therefore Smodur's call). Bangar going renegade and causing a Blood Legion civil war could well make for a side-plot comparable to the Caudecus arc at some point, particularly if the story heads north.

Can't say for sure that's actually in the plans, but if you're going to play the card that the Separatists were only a credible threat because of Caudecus' backing, the possibility does have to be considered that the Renegades also have a secret backer.

I do remember a few people asking for Taimi to get her comeuppance prior to Flashpoint: funnily enough, we're not seeing so much of that now. B)