draxynnic.3719

That says that the sand constructs come from Olma's findings, but the lorekeeper scrolls say that "the mothers and daughters could control the sky itself", _even while they were still being oppressed by the Flame Legion_. This is where the thought of a gendered split in elemental affinity comes from - the GW1 charr are notably lacking in air magic use, while the scrolls indicate that if the females weren't being oppressed, they would supply sky-related magic.

Given the amount of lightning flying around, I'd say that air magic is at least _part_ of what the Olmakhan have available. Earth and water magic I'm inclined to think are non-gendered: smoke shamans are at least mixing in some Earth, I'd say, and one of the EOTN charr elementalist types was a water specialist.

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> I'd just like to note that the tengu aren't really unique, in that I believe they come from Japanese mythology. That's probably why the few named tengu we do meet in GW2 have Japanese style names. That said, there's very little media that covers them in the west, or even of Japanese media that gets translated for a western audience, so they are a novelty and unique in that sense, but no more unique than elves or dwarves.

Depends on whether you consider uniqueness to be a continuum, or a quality that you either have or you do not. If you regard it is a continuum, then tengu are more unique that elves and dwarves, because fantasy settings with elves and dwarves are a dime a dozen while fantasy settings with tengu - or even bird-people in general - are much less common.

It's hard to create something that's _completely_ unique. All of the playable GW2 races, and most of the non-playable ones, have close analogues in other settings.

What strikes me as interesting is the note that female Flame Legion charr apparently have/had an affinity for sky magic. Which carries quite a few implications:

1) Among Flame Legion charr at least, certain magic types are gendered. Male elementalists have a stronger affinity for fire magic, while females have a stronger affinity for air magic.

2) By disallowing their females from fighting or learning magic, the Flame Legion were not just losing a good proportion of their potential fighting force, but also cutting off some of the diversity of their magical capabilities, as they were losing their air magic specialists.

3) The Olmakhan talent for air magic predates their split from the Flame Legion, and may even predate the influence of the titans on the Flame Legion.

4) Male Olmakhan might retain a talent for fire magic. Alternatively, the fire obsession might have come from Titan influence, and the 'natural' affinity for male charr elementalists might instead be earth - which we do see a lot of among the Olmakhan. Might be worth investigating to see if Olmakhan using earth magic have a tendency to be male charr rather than female.

5) If it is a case of the males having a talent for fire magic while the females have a talent for air magic, then the gendering of elements matches the genders of the human gods matching those elements (Balthazar for fire and Dwayna for air). Is this coincidence? Or could it be the result of some ancient interaction between the charr and the gods before the relationship between them soured?

> @"Cuddy.6247" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

> >

> > But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

> >

> > One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

>

> Light and heat via fire. Therefore Balthazar is the sun god.

Dwayna is called the goddess of light by one of the Wintersday NPCs in GW1, and while I couldn't find it on a quick search, I'm pretty sure one of the Wintersday NPCs calls her the goddess of warmth as well. It wouldn't be surprising if humans of Tyria distinguish between gentle, life-giving warmth (Dwayna's domain) and violent, life-threatening heat and fire (Balthazar's). She's certainly the sky deity of the Six.

That said, though, we do know something about at least _some_ constellations, namely that they are celestial beings (those we know of being former humans) who were placed in the skies to commemorate their actions in life, some being able to return to Tyria at auspicious times (the Canthan New Year for GW1, for instance). So it's possible that _no_ god actually claims the stars as their own domain, and instead the stars are associated with the celestial beings. The Celestial Dragon that blesses Cantha during the Dragon Festival is possibly the most powerful of these beings, but may just be the most influential from the Canthan viewpoint.

Which could fit with the druids having access to celestial-themed magic, as they might be able to draw from celestials associated with Melandru.

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > @"Tanith.5264" said:

> > I seem to recall a random asura NPC describing Zojja as "scrambled and drooling", which might explain her long silence.

>

> That's considered hearsay. That's not reliable. We won't know if that's her actual condition until we, the Commander, actually visit her, which means we're at the mercy of Anet designing a story/quest/event around that (which I don't see them doing).

It was also pretty early in S3, at a time when Logan was also convalescing. So she could have recovered as much as he did, even if that rumour _was_ correct.

Pretty sure there was a leak relatively early on that indicated that Balthazar at least played a major role in the next expansion. Once it was revealed that Lazarus possibly wasn't actually Lazarus, the people who'd seen and remembered that leak started connecting the dots.

Honestly, I could see the "we seal him away for now, and he becomes the recurring villain of the franchise" working myself.

Just as long as it's a different story each time. We've had releasing him because we need his help. Now we're getting him as the despotic ruler we're (probably) going to try and overthrow. Next there could be a plot where we have to stop him from being released. Or a plot where he's released and we have to stop his next bid for power _before_ it succeeds. He could really be the gift that keeps on giving!

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Underdark.3726" said:

> > Oh right, don't play much fractals and forgot about it.

> > But, since it was Joko who led Balthazar into the Domain of the Lost does that mean he can come there and reclaim Lonai?

>

> Not a worry! I barely touch them myself.

>

> I don't think there's much chance of Joko getting out there. He'd A.) have to know where the body was, which would take magic we've never heard of in Guild Wars, and B.) reach it. Even if he's able to get into the Mists, he'd be stranded on one floating landmass among a theoretically infinite expanse of others, so short of flying (or being able to open a portal to exactly he wants to go) reaching the spot isn't in the cards.

It's possible that the Scrying Pool at the Eye of the North could have located it, if it hadn't been destroyed. Aurene's visions might also be able to locate it. Certainly, scrying magic _exists_ - but it is rare, Joko probably doesn't have access to it, and even if he did, Lonai _probably_ isn't worth going to what seemed to be basically outer space to reclaim.

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Too bad we couldn’t just pull Joko into the portal with us and leave him stranded in outer space. Lol would be hilarious for him to spend eternity stuck there with nobody to rule.

Might not be quite so effective - it's probably easier to teleport from a random rock to Tyria than from Tyria to a random rock. Of course, if he happens to be lacking a means of transport off the rock in the first place...

I think it's still less than a thousand years since the Scarab Plague.

It's a valid point, though: it's possible that the Scarab Plague might fizzle due to something that modern Tyrians had that the Primeval Dynasty didn't. It's even possible this might be as simple as "knowing what the Scarab Plague is, knowing it might be used as a weapon, and keeping an eye open for it" - checking the food supply for eggs and discarding contaminated food could well have been enough to stop the Scarab Plague. But it's entirely possible that modern Tyrians might be able to devise a magical decontamination procedure.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Incidentally, I'd be inclined to say that only Eir, and possibly Snaff, were put in the fridge. The others were just put on a bus. Know your tropes! :p

>

> Pfft, those were put on the bus too. Season 4's finale will have Eir's ghost return to us and become part of Braham's new elite specialization that is guardians focusing more on their ritualist roots. Meanwhile we'll learn Snaff's mind survived in Kralkatorrik's and with Kralkatorrik's new domain of mind (because hiveminds didn't exist in dragons outside of Mordremoth according to Taimi), Kralky will transfer it into a new branded body which will betray its master just like Glint and fight beside us, Dragon's Edge!

Eh, I'd say that being killed and then coming back somehow is still being fridged rather than put on the bus. And I do maintain a suspicion that some part of Snaff's mind might yet remain in Kralkatorrik.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Technically her Wyld Hunt was getting the egg to Tarir, and nothing more. That's why she became clear headed after the fact - with the Wyld Hunt no longer calling her, Mordremoth couldn't use that to confused her and convince her to betray the Pact Commander (or at least that's my understanding of what's happened based on A Shadow's Deeds dialogue in S3).

>

> Caithe protecting Aurene was her way to make amends with the Commander, not her Wyld Hunt. Though it is weird that she's not been heard about since PoF all the same.

She's probably a 'not important right now', like Marjory and Kasmeer.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that Palawa was always intended to be the nasty piece of work we're seeing now.

His 'affable' behaviour in Nightfall comes about because he's on the back foot (to the point where the Sunspears and the Order of Whispers considered him defanged) and because he knew he needed the PCs (and vice versa). There's a fair amount even there to indicate that he's actually a nasty piece of work and quite manipulative when he wants to be, though.

He's endearing because he's charismatic, but it's that very charisma that helps to make him _dangerous_ - both in steadily absorbing his neighbours during ancient times, and in persuading many Elonians that he's worthy of their loyalty (and _certainly_ not responsible for their problems that are _definitely_ all caused by local administrators acting outside their responsibility!) now.

Given that the dragons tend to make champions out of those who were impressive and/or held higher station before being corrupted, I would be VERY surprised if a branded Joko was made a mindless minion.

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583"

> >

> > Technically, karka haven't been seen corrupted either.

> >

> > However, I will stress that there's still no support for the claim that "dragons can't take other's minions". Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, and now Subject Beta should all prove that this *is* possible. Sylvari immunity was said - multiple times in HoT promotions as well as once in S2 - to be due to "connection to the Pale Tree" aka the Dream. In theory this means a sylvari (or any dragon minion) without such a connection to a third party could be susceptible. It's still theory either way, there is **zero** definite proof.

>

> True, I won’t claim its _impossible_, but I at least like to believe if it was possible, it would’ve happened in nature (outside an inquest testing flask).

> So i’m still on the fence of “its not possible” or “its difficult enough for the ED’s not to bother with it”

>

> But good catch, I completely forgot the Karkas still existed

Honestly, anything that can happen in a lab can happen in "nature" (however accurate that term is when dealing with Elder Dragons). Some things are extremely unlikely to happen by random chance, of course, but the dragons are sapient beings in their own right and clearly know how to manipulate draconic energies.

My personal theory is that the dragons can corrupt another dragon's minion by using similar methods to the Inquest, but doing so doesn't reset the minion's loyalty. So the dragons don't do it because they'd just be giving power to another dragon with no benefit to themselves.

The Inquest don't have this concern because they're _already_ having to override the minion's loyalty.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> ArenaNet has said they have plans for Zojja "in the future", so we should be seeing her return. We know that ArenaNet's not adverse to changing voice actors, so even if it isn't Felicia Day (some folks have suggested the reason of no Zojja is due to Felicia Day, idk myself),

It was commonly hypothesised that Zojja was put on a bus because of Felicia's availability, but Felicia herself has apparently stated otherwise.

Incidentally, I'd be inclined to say that only Eir, and possibly Snaff, were put in the fridge. The others were just put on a bus. Know your tropes! :p

Regarding "human-like qualities":

We may be looking at that from our own humanicentric viewpoint. Raising families and having a loose military structure are also norn traits - more so than human traits, even (humans aren't as militaristic as charr, but do have a formal military) and Braham himself comments at one point about the Olmakhan reverence for nature being like the norn. Since the norn had... if not friendly, than not exactly entirely _hostile_ either... relations with the charr before the Searing, it would make sense for the Olmakhan to have used them as the model to build a society that isn't built as a military organisation from the ground up.

That said, despite Braham's observation, the Olmakhan religion does seem to be distinct from the norn religion. It's possible that they've managed to retain some memory of what the shamans followed before they turned to the Titans and they've tried to rebuild that original charr religion.

ArenaNet does have a tendency to forget things every so often, unfortunately.

One other thing that crossed my mind is that IIRC, there were indications early on that Taimi's condition was likely to take her to an early grave, although we haven't heard much about that since. So, for her, a consciousness transfer might be an alternative to death - something that she might consider particularly important if her illness progresses to a near-terminal stage while she still feels like she has unfinished business (helping to solve the dragon and magic imbalance problem, for instance).

Where Cantha is concerned, Devona (or rather Mhenlo) and co are likely _enough_. Elona, on the other hand, shows clear signs of having cultural exchanges with Tyria - one of Varesh's generals, for instance, is Ascalonian. It might not be talked about onscreen, but I'm quite sure that Elonians and important Canthans at least knew about the war - and it's likely that there'd be a general feeling that it's a tragedy that the Ascalonians are being overrun and eaten by the charr and they'd want to do something about it.

Just... not something that involves too much effort. They have their own problems, and Ascalon is so far away, and Adelbern is refusing the assistance of foreign troops anyway... but hey! We can send weapons! That way we can tell ourselves we're doing something, without actually doing more than donating goods! (Or even exporting, if Ascalon retained the ability to pay.)

With respect to the bombards: I was thinking of the Vabbian example, where we really don't see much of what's actually going on - whether it's actually a magical weapon, or a big mortar on a floating platform. Either way, though, the weapons mounted on Siege Turtles are clearly cannons of some description.

Now, the ghost cannons we see are clearly a different and more compact design to those mounted on Siege Turtles, but this could be where we invoke ~~laziness~~ not wanting to go to the effort of creating a new model when an existing one is close enough.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Manimarco Devil.1790" said:

> > Joko was one of the more intelligent undead who ventured out instead of thinking in a more limited undead manner (wander around in circles) . He utilized his kin's powers to release the Scarab Plague and decimate Elona so he could begin his rise.

>

> While I once advocated the idea that Joko had origins with the Scarab Plague, let's be honest. Could someone as egotistical, narcissistic, and power hungry as Joko remain silent for the 300 year gap we see between the beginning of the Scarab Plague and when he's first mentioned in all of history? Especially if the Scarab Plague was so he could "begin his rise"?

He could if his plans misfired sufficiently that he needed time to develop new plans. He might have expected Elona to be crippled more than it was (Admun Kolos seemed to take control of mainland Elona pretty soon after the Scarab Plague, while Joko may have been expecting a leaderless Elona to be easy pickings, or might even have expected the Plague to reach the mainland) - this might have required him to take the time to build up a larger army than he had thought he needed while hiding out in the Desolation. It's also possible someone could have smacked him down and it didn't reach the history books - heck, it's possible that the Order of Whispers weren't the first to bind him.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Cuddy.6247" said:

> > Phylacteries don't really exist in Guild Wars lore, or at least not yet. Granted we've only ever come in contact with two liches: Khilbron and Joko.

>

> More than two.

>

> * https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dragon_Lich

> * https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zoldark_the_Unholy

> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mazdak_the_Accursed

> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Risen_Lich

>

> And technically [The Hunter](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Hunter) as well, as it was given similar powers that Khilbron had, by Khilbron. [Fendi Nin](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fendi_Nin) functioned similarly enough to a lich as well.

>

> Mind you, of these 8 individuals, only four (Khilbron, Joko, The Hunter, and Mazdak) have been proven to be immune to standard means of killing. Mazdak was only able to be killed by Caladbolg, Khilbron by ripping his soul out of his body, and Joko and the Hunter still roam the world/Mists. Of the other four, two were exceptionally powerful necromancers who have some unusual traits - Fendi Nin being able to re-possess his body upon re-death, and Zoldark able to give that unkillable trait other liches have to his own minions (at the cost of his own vulnerability).

>

> The last two, Dragon Liches and Risen Liches, while called liches, exhibit no special traits.

>

> > @"Cuddy.6247" said:

> > I suppose it raises the question though if the phylactery is canon and, if so, would it have killed Khilbron and not sent him to the Realm of Torment if we destroyed that instead of killing him on the bloodstone? And if phylacteries are used, will we need to find Joko's or would Aurene's magic be enough to act as a portable bloodstone? @"Konig Des Todes.2086"

> >

> > My guess is we're just going to take the generic "we're good at smashing things and also happen to have a superpowered adolescent dragon on our heels." You know, the same thing that pushed us to defeating Balthazar.

> Aurene shouldn't be able to function as a portal bloodstone in this case. What killed Khilbron was ultimately us forcibly tearing his soul out - technically it was more the soul batteries attached to the Bloodstone, rather than the Bloodstone itself (or maybe the markings? It's not entirely clear still). If Joko is the same, then we would need to forcibly separate his soul from his body (something we did to Fendi Nin just by beating his body down, then we destroyed his soul; but Fendi Nin was weaker than Khilbron and undoubtably Joko too).

>

> On an aside, it was "technically" Sohothin, being Balthazar's own sword, which allowed us to damage the god - Aurene merely gave us protection, and assisted with a dual strike when Sohothin proved insufficient.

>

> Still wish that they gave an in-game statement that Sohothin was Balthazar's, and I still wish they had us gather Magdaer and the crown to unleash that power rather than suddenly armageddon powers!

Now THAT would have made a lot more sense - it would explain why it wasn't something that Rytlock could tap into whenever he wanted.

Heck, take it a step further and make it clear that doing it more than once might break something important...

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Yereton.8647" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604"

> > > > The trouble, though, is that Ascalon didn't have cannons at the time of the Foefire.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If we look at RL as inspiration, by the 14th century we had rudimentary cannons in Europe, and even earlier in China. They were basically giant cast iron (or bronze) tubes, so very unlike the ghostly ones we see in GW2. So we can say, if we compare the GW1 (and maybe a little further past Beyond) era, to an equivalent RL era, it could be around the early 14th century (we can see that in the weaponry and armour skins available in GW1, especially in Prophecies). Ergo, artillery existed, albeit very rudimentary and in very few number and fairly far in between.

> >

> > One problem with that- we get an extensive look at Ascalon's military technologies in GW1. Cannons were emphatically not part of that, and the Searing would've frozen any advancement towards that direction in its tracks. For them to be present at the time of the Foefire, an extremely unlikely series of events would've had to occur at a time when the kingdom was burned to the ground and barely scraping enough together to survive- not the sort of time for experimentation and mass production leading to a more sophisticated level of technology, or for a notoriously inward-facing king to import the weapons over vast distances and large stretches of wilderness from a nation across the seas with its own catastrophes and growing isolationist sentiment.

> >

> > Personally, I'm inclined to believe it's an anachronism, a simple mistake that'd be more trouble than it's worth to fix. It's something ANet has done in the past- one of the Orrian risen varieties had a pistol for quite some time, which the devs implicitly acknowledged as a mistake by changing to a second sword.

> >

>

> There is the possibility that in the 12 years between our last contact with Ascalon and the Foefire (from 1078 AE to 1090 AE - though one may make the argument for even 1072 AE, as in EotN there's just one quest with Gwen, not at military forefront, and in WiK/HotN the only change was Evennia's temporary presence) that canons were invented and scavenged from the charr, thus used by Ascalonians.

There are also examples of cannons used by humans in GW1 - the cannons mounted on Siege Turtles for instance, and possibly the bombards outside Dzagonur Bastion. It's possible that, despite Adelbern's isolationism, some of these weapons made it to Ascalon before the Foefire. After all, for all his paranoia, accepting weapons from other human nations doesn't carry the risks that allowing them to send armies would, and it wouldn't surprise me if the other human nations were doing whatever Adelbern would allow them to do to prop Ascalon up.

On the topic of asura necromancers:

I themed mine around the idea of being a combined archaeologist/paleontologist. It's a lot easier to transport specimens when you can get them to transport _themselves..._

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > One could make an argument for Glint and Jalis being linked to humans due to past interactions, but that's more of a stretch. It's probably more accurate to say that both are rooted in Tyria's ancient history.

>

> One could make an argument for Jalis being tied to the norn too. Norn and dwarves were allies, Jalis particularly allied to some famous norn, and Jalis' involvement in EotN was brought about by the norn contacting them.

And for asura, really. We saw more of the interactions of the dwarves with humans, but that may well be purely because GW1 was focused on humans.

@"Castigator.3470"

It's generally been an assumption of mine that the regular minions available to PC necromancers, particularly in GW1, are soulless, while the creation of truly sentient undead requires a mix of what in GW1 terms would be ritualism and necromancy: necromancy to animate the body, and ritualism to infuse a soul into it. The existence of Shadow Fiend in GW2 suggests that some ritualist abilities have been absorbed into the necromancer.

The scourge playstle and lore has a lot of similarities with the ritualist (an N/Rt, anyway). Shades are essentially their form of spirits - while Akesi calls them "an extension of our power", she may be talking about the purpose they serve rather than what they actually _are_, or she may be shy about saying outright that they're calling the spirits of the dead back to act as conduits. So a large part of the effect of taking the Shade specialisation might be to add more soul-manipulation into the necromancer. If that's the case, then Joko's initial development of this art might be how he was able to create an army of Awakened rather than of regular necrominions.

Akesi also mentions that the (renegede) Scourges fled from Joko when they found out what he wanted them to do. My suspicion is that what that was is "creating Awakened". While happy to call on spirits or to create soulless minions, there does seem to be a taboo on creating sentient corporeal undead - possibly because this involves permanently binding the soul (whereas invoking a spirit in the manner that a ritualist or, if I'm right, scourge does is only a temporary conjuration, allowing the spirit to return to their rest shortly after). Those among Palawa's students that didn't flee are probably his delegates in the creation of more Awakened.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Ah. I didn't double-check her dialogue, so I'd forgotten that she states that her magic doesn't help with her art.

> >

> > Nevertheless, particularly among humans, some level of artistic ability seems to be common among mesmers, more so than most other professions. It wouldn't surprise me if that's something they encourage among mesmers in training due to some synergy between artistic ability and mesmer magic.

>

> While that may be related to remnants of Lyssa worship I believe you are correct in assuming artistry is useful for illusion magic.

>

> There might also be some unfair advantage, just not in tracing. I think they can give themselves extreme visual acuity.

> * She specifically says Mirage Magic did not help, she did not say Mesmer Magic. She also said they shared techniques with thieves.

> * The Deadeye mentor mentions some thieves having figured out how to sharpen eyesight with shadow magic. But has limited knowledge of the history, only that it seemed gradual. Perhaps the eyesight and marking came from their collaborations with Mesmers.

> * one could say a Mesmer's sight is beyond the sight beyond sight of a Spellbreaker.

> * Kasmeer is able to mark a location with a portal despite being unable to shadowstep to it and not having visibly tossed it over.

I've theorised for a while that thief magic is very closely aligned to mesmer magic in nature. Spellbreakers also seem very W/Me (although the colour scheme does seem to put paid to my theories about the colours of spell effects being significant for non-elementalists if so) despite the skill names mostly coming from dervish and ritualist skills from GW1 (Sight beyond Sight was a ritualist skill...), although it could be that their skills do come directly from dervish traditions.