draxynnic.3719

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> And if pve farming was the problem, they could have reduced it to 450, since engineers have the same with the flamethrower.

425, but yes. This. Whatever argument there might be for having reduced the range in the first place - which, as I noted above, I am still sceptical about, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a total dartboard nerf and the buffing of other skills suggests it wasn't a deliberate boonsmiting - skills with similar mechanics provide a precedent that 400-ish range for a skill of this type is okay. Nerfing it down to 300 was overkill by any measure.

> @Fenom.9457 said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke.

> > >

> > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game.

> > >

> > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it.

> >

> > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded;

> >

> > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**."

> >

> > She's there, dead center.

>

>

>

> one in a million luck not to be branded? don't know how she made it, her story is getting suspicious...

One in a million chances crop up nine times out of ten.

More seriously, highly improbable events can happen if there are a lot of repetitions. Rather than exaggerating the odds to one in a million, let's say that there was a one in a hundred chance for a warband caught on the edge of the Brand to have at least one uncorrupted member, and a one in ten chance for at least one uncorrupted member to then survive the resulting battle. These are still fairly low odds on an individual basis, but if there were a thousand warbands caught in the Brand, then the odds of having at least one Almorra become quite high.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> 1.

> That isn't how that works. Species' territories do not always exist in clear separate chunks, and the territory of each would have overlapped the others. That the DSD pushed out four races who all lived in the depths of the oceans only shows that the DSD is expanding in the depths of the oceans. He neither has to be all that strong or powerful to achieve that, especially considering he is the only dragon in the water like that. Especially considering both the Quaggan and Krait are shown to be primitive tribalistic cultures, on par with the grawl, ogres, hylek, and skritt, with barely any sort of modernized or cohesive weaponry or military. The only underwater species shown to be developed are the Largos, who have the same fundamental weakness the Norn do, in that the operate on singular hunter/assassin organization, with no effective large scale military. The DSD has zero real barriers to its conquest of the depths. It **should** have a massive territory compared to every other Elder Dragon.

Actually, before being driven out by the krait (who were driven out of their own former territories by the DSD), the quaggan of the southern oceans had a unified nation-state ruled over by the markissios (which seems to be essentially their royalty). The culture of isolated villages we see now is the result of having been scattered and displaced from their homeland, their royal family apparently wiped out, and having to settle in regions that aren't claimed by the natives of the region rather than being able to form a contiguous nation-state from unclaimed territory. It's not reflective of the state they were in a century ago.

What we know of the krait appears to be similar - they once had a coherent theocratic state, but it has fractured as it was displaced.

> @FLEUR.7458 said:

> Well we know that Dragon's exist in Cantha as well, such as Kuunavang and Albax and other saltspray dragons. Who knows if when that content is released they will be revisited. Kuunavang was celestial, and it seems that family of dragons were not tied in with attunements per se.

I was thinking that...

On the other hand, the Canthan dragons are noticeably different to what gets called a dragon on the northern continent. Saltsprays are, essentially, lighter and more intelligent wyverns, while Rockhides are, well, dragon turtles. None of the Canthan dragons have a six-limbed body plan. So the nature of Canthan dragons might not tell us anything about whether dragons with four legs and wings existed except as scions of the Elder Dragons (free-willed or otherwise).

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >It's never even established why he stopped in Vabbi (djinn magic? the temple of Lyssa?).

> I doubt it was any one thing, but rather a combination of everything going on in Vabbi. Vabbi was always shown as being one of the most magical places in the human known world, giant floating gardens, djinn everywhere bound to the land, people living in such eloquence that they had giant tapestries of magically moving text, etc. etc. Besides Orr before it sunk, Vabbi was the most magical human kingdom we know of.

>

Hrrrmn. Cantha might match it. It's not as overt, and probably not overtly utilised by humans as much as in Vabbi, but there's a lot of magically significant stuff in Cantha, particularly if the lingering effects of the Jade Wind remain.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Some of them joined the Forged/Zaishen in the campaign, so are likely now considered outcasts if they did and survived (there's an event in Crystal Oasis were you got to kill some Balthazar priests that are creating Forged).

>

> I'm rather disappointed they didn't have more division shown in the Priesthood of Balthazar or the Zaishen Order. Also disappointed they apparently forgot the Zaishen Order had become multi-racial in the past 250 years.

Retconned, I suspect. I don't think the Zaishen becoming multiracial was ever specified ingame, was it?

The idea that they might have ascended the GW1 player character is an interesting one, and if the identity of the new God of War is deliberately to be kept a mystery, then it does open up the door for that. On the other hand, it would require that it be kept a mystery indefinitely.

Now, when it comes to Balthazar's worshippers...

My expectation is that they'll split. There'll be some that continue to honour his memory and/or claim he was in the right all along, similar to (and, possibly, somewhat foreshadowed by) that priest of Abaddon in Siren's Landing. Over time, however, Balthazar worship will probably diminish and become regarded more of a morality tale than a deity to be worshiped.

Assuming that no new holder of the mantle is revealed (and that humans don't go full-on atheist, which would be a shame from a lore perspective but it wouldn't surprise me the way the story is going), then I expect that the domains once associated with Balthazar will drift to other gods. We saw something similar in GW1 during Abaddon's absence: aspects that would otherwise have been associated with Abaddon became attributed to other gods instead, primarily Grenth. Kormir might end up filling the same spot in the absence of a formal god of war: as a leader of a military organisation in life, she's a good fit, and since that military organisation was, after all, the **Sun**spears, she may even end up becoming the deity that is invoked by fire elementalists as well, similar to how Grenth was the patron of water elementalists in GW1's time even though the domain of water still technically belonged to Abaddon.

As a quick note, Dwayna is said multiple times to be the leader of the gods.

That said, there were a few indications that Dwayna, Balthazar and Melandru were the power trio, while Grenth and Lyssa being a step down in relative ranking.

> @insanemaniac.2456 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @ukuni.8745 said:

> > > for general pve content i use a sd build with rifle turret/photon shield/laser disk and it clears trash mobs and veterans really quickly, but yea if your not concerned about being optimal you can run it without kits and still be fairly viable

> >

> > Having run something similar myself: What's your answer to crowd control? Do you just tough it out, use a different build when you're expecting heavy CC, or have you come up with something that substitutes for the relative lack of stunbreaks?

>

> in general most really disadvantageous cc is telegraphed, dodge it. if its not telegraphed, its prolly not gonna kill you unless you eat it while already low. plus enemies are predictable and dont react (to blinds). so learn your quick burst rotations, and any rotation with a cd under 30 secs that can do 50%+ of your average vet's hp will suffice to keep you alive through dps as much as avoidance and mitigation for 90% of the time. for the insufficient 10%, theres a zerg around you and aint no one carin bout nothin.

>

> so... tough it out and learn telegraphs and attack patterns.

Right, so it's a "don't have Australian latency" issue...

I have been playing since release, so I know the basics, but I have noticed that PoF has some nasty crowd control which isn't as telegraphed as CC typically was in core, or even in HoT. Part of it might still be a matter of learning the telegraphs, and part of it seems to be that ArenaNet has put in more groups that have repeated hard CC that will repetitively pin you down if you get caught by the first one and can't get out of the way. So it does seem that PoF open-world requires a bit more anti-CC than previous releases, where you could get away with it more.

> @ukuni.8745 said:

> for general pve content i use a sd build with rifle turret/photon shield/laser disk and it clears trash mobs and veterans really quickly, but yea if your not concerned about being optimal you can run it without kits and still be fairly viable

Having run something similar myself: What's your answer to crowd control? Do you just tough it out, use a different build when you're expecting heavy CC, or have you come up with something that substitutes for the relative lack of stunbreaks?

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > > > >

> > > > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

> > >

> > > In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

> >

> > Been a while since I've played that...

> >

> > I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

> >

> > Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

>

> That's what was confusing me. Thanks for that info, both Drax and Athrenn. I like the way how judge and executioner are partitioned among Kormir and Grenth respectively.

I think they've somewhat split the role of the judge there. Judges have two purposes in a criminal court case - ensuring the trial runs in an orderly fashion, and deciding the sentence if the defendant is found guilty. In a civil case, judges also act essentially as the jury in many places.

Grenth is definitely the god associated with deciding a sentence, but Kormir may be the deity associated with ensuring the trial runs in an orderly fashion.

Essentially, Kormir is invoked to ensure the truth of the matter is found - she's playing the role of the jury and of the judge _up to the moment the verdict is decided_. Grenth is the god associated with passing and executing the sentence.

Basically, imagine a court case where the judge simply spectates until the jury passes the verdict. That's Grenth. The actual running of the trial is performed by a separate official - and that's where Kormir's role sits.

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > > The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

> > > >

> > > > I'm actually not sure they can...

> > > >

> > > > The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

> > > >

> > > > For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

> > >

> > > I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

> >

> > So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

>

> I don't know what it would be (again, it could be all kinds of things), but me not having an idea of what it could be doesn't mean it CAN'T be something that's not a legend swap.

>

> I mean, just thinking blue sky here ... it could be as simple as a swap to a kit for different weapon skills, maintaining the current legend. Sure, that's kind of kitten, but you aren't swapping legends; effectively you get a 3rd weapon to play with. I can imagine TONS of things that weapon could do for you ... it might even be linked to the lengned you have chosen ... whatever you want.

>

> That's a crap idea maybe. That's not the point; the point is that there is no limitation to what a future elite spec could be based on the current concept of the class. The concerns of being 'locked into' a undesirable situation is unfounded, given the fact that Anet has already proven it could be done ... and DONE it with other classes.

>

>

This is pretty much the response I was expecting: "I don't know what it would be either, but if you can't think of a way it would work, you're just being unimaginative!"

Your kit idea is.. basically trading a legend swap for a third weapon swap. Not that significant a change.

People keep talking about necromancer (and now guardian), but that's missing the point. Necromancer and guardian are both conventional professions with their mechanic on top. They have conventional weaponswap, conventional treatment of utility skills, and generally behave like normal professions in their interactions with skills... because they ARE normal professions. The profession mechanic is something that is laid on top, with no tradeoffs having been made for it. They're easily swapped for a new mechanic.

Revenants (and elementalists) are _not_ normal professions. They've made tradeoffs in order to get their profession mechanic, and the profession mechanic in addition to the tradeoff is how the profession _works_. Broadly speaking, both have given up a certain degree of customisability in exchange for having more skills available at once. Replacing legend swap with anything that isn't fundamentally equivalent is either going to result in something that just isn't a revenant, or that simply doesn't work.

With that said, as I said in my previous post, there is a lot they could do to fiddle around with the legend swap.

For instance, there could be an elite specialisation that focuses on having three legends at once. Instead of using F1 to switch, it changes to an Elementalist-like bar where F1 gives you your first legend, F2 your second, and F3 brings up the legend associated with the elite spec (which can be given a weak heal - or no heal - to avoid issues with having three healing skills available). Or, in the process of spitballing, they could do something similar to the tempest, where remaining in a legend for a certain period of time grants you the ability to supercharge it in some fashion: possibly a transform, allowing you to fight in the form of your legend for a period of time. There is a lot that _could_ be done, but I really don't think that a scourge-esque complete transformation of the mechanic is something we'd ever see.

> @Kadeshy.7258 said:

> > @Justine.6351 said:

>

> > I hope you are trolling but past experience on the forums have me worried.

>

> Now excuse me, but troll for me is to play 5h just with a class and already come to a nerf conclusion !!

>

> Please comment on your main class and let anyone who plays necro comment on it please!!

I follow a principle of not calling something OP until I've played in in PvP myself.

I have a 75% win rate with Scourge right now. Only times I've lost was when the other team had a better Scourge... which isn't hard. I know I'm not using it to its full potential.

Now, I suspect a large part of it is the shade bug. We should probably see how it performs once that's fixed before any (other) nerfs, since it might turn out that when it's genuinely working as intended it is in line with the competition. Right now, though, it's incredibly powerful in sPvP.

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > Silly thought, but if we assume that ArenaNet thinks putting healing on Wave of Wrath would be too strong, what about putting barrier for allies on Wave of Wrath? If the allies in question are being hit than a small amount of barrier would be effectively equivalent to a small amount of healing, but it wouldn't be something you could use to quickly heal somebody up who isn't in immediate danger.

>

> I don't see how healing others would be the issue. If anything, if it *only* healed others, it wouldn't contribute to the bunkering in pvp.

Some people have raised it as a potential reason for not giving Wave of Wrath a healing component, suggesting things like making the heal only apply if at least one enemy was struck and things like that. I wouldn't commit to agreeing with it myself, but barrier would be one compromise.

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> I would love them to return hexes but I think they would need to be very specific types. The short duration "if then" type; Guilt, Shame, Diversion, Clumsiness, Mindwrack. We won't be able to have any hexes which have a continuous effect due to no removal.

I think there might be a bit of space for this, actually...

If you look at the guardian traits, you'll see a number of traits that key off an Aegis they generate being triggered. Shattered Aegis, for instance, makes enemies take damage when an Aegis is triggered, making Aegis behave a bit like Reversal of Damage, while Pure of Heart makes Aegis heal, behaving a bit like Reversal of Fortune.

Now, I think the combination of a Blind and a Confusion is supposed to achieve a similar effect to skills like Clumsiness, Mistrust, and Wandering Eye, but they could probably draw from the guardian Aegis interactions and give mesmers a trait that means that if a Blind they apply ends prematurely, it inflicts damage around the area of the target: essentially replicating the effect of a Mistrust or a Wandering Eye (they could even name the trait Wandering Eye).

Silly thought, but if we assume that ArenaNet thinks putting healing on Wave of Wrath would be too strong, what about putting barrier for allies on Wave of Wrath? If the allies in question are being hit than a small amount of barrier would be effectively equivalent to a small amount of healing, but it wouldn't be something you could use to quickly heal somebody up who isn't in immediate danger.

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

> >

> > I'm actually not sure they can...

> >

> > The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

> >

> > For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

>

> I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

>

>

Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

You'd then just have five utility skills. If the elite specialisation's 'thing' is that it then gives you the freedom to choose the skills in your utility slots... then you've basically made an elite specialisation to make revenant like the other professions, except with an energy mechanic. Otherwise... well, whatever you get in the F1-F5 slots had better be pretty good to make up for having only five utility skills without being able to customise those five.

Something like the shades for Scourge isn't going to work. Scourge works because, as I said, shroud for necromancer is an added bonus. The profession as a whole isn't based around it the way that elementalist and revenant are based around their switching mechanics. Now, there's a lot they can do to play around with it, but I don't think we're ever likely to see a revenant elite spec that swaps it for something else.

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. It's possible, and in some cases even advantageous, to play a warrior, guardian, thief, engineer, mesmer or necromancer without using any of the skills on their function bar. Obviously they'll all play better if you do make good use of those abilities, but they're more of an added bonus rather than being what makes the profession actually work. Which means that in each case, the skills on their function bar can be replaced by something entirely different, as long as what they replace it with still works with core traits and is roughly the same strength as what it replaced.

Even for rangers this is true: you could replace the pet with something else that provides an equivalent benefit, and the rest of ranger would still work. Soulbeast toys with this, in fact, albeit intended to be only a temporary thing rather than permanent.

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

It's pretty much working as intended - the elite specs are supposed to be a sidegrade rather than an upgrade. I think you're generally still better off with the elite specs at the moment, but core guardian has been buffed to a point where there are playstyles and situations where core guardian works better. This isn't a bad thing!

It's worth noting that technically the Holosmith is based on human technology, it's just that the humans in question are the Zephyrites rather than Krytans.

I've advocated for mace, but I don't think it should be _next_. Engineers have had two melee elite specialisations thus far - going three for three would be overkill.

Staff or scepter for a 'technomage' style would probably work, or a bow with a 'trick arrow' theme.

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > >

> > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

>

> In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

Been a while since I've played that...

I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

> @Pax.3548 said:

>

> The fact the first thing you say it that I didn't play gw1 tells me you're starting to get personal in the discussion here.

I know, _from personal experience,_ that reading about something from secondhand sources can result in a very different impression than experiencing it yourself.

Much of the latter part of the Prophecies story, as well as some later elements, emphasise how the mursaat, while not gods, are something that is still a big step up from more ordinary races such as humans and the charr, such that multiple macguffins are needed in order to even stand a chance (without those macguffins, the power of the mursaat are such that only three mursaat are capable of destroying an entire charr army, although admittedly those three are probably among the most powerful of the mursaat). They are not gods, but are certainly a step above mere mortals.

> @Pax.3548 said:

>

> You're assuming their strategy required all the bloodstones to be intact and in the place they were, like they used the bloodstone from the bloodstone caves too right? the only use they give to the bloodstone was to power up their batteries (it was important I Know), and yet facing extintion in the hands of an enemy they probably knew couldn't face with their abilities they didn't even break one single bloodstone to use the power just because they thought chargering batteries was more important right? I'll end this part of the discussion here, as I get the impression you will start discussing less and insulting or typing "hints" about me not playing gw1 because I don't agree with you.

>

> Another thing, you say mursaat were the most powerful being than even the most powerful heroes, yet lorewise you got that these very heroes broke through their defenses, killed hordes of mursaat (not only here but also in thunderhead keep) and even their leaders, and whats more, even defeated a wave of titans in order to kill the lich lord who controlled them. You focus on gameplay mechanics like it mattered on the lore? lol. You have the heart of a white mantle fanatic don't you, next you'll say to me they truly were gods amonst mere mortals.

Now who's getting personal?

There is a moment in the story where it's indicated that they were going to use the bloodstone in the bloodstone caves. Whether they actually did or not is ambiguous, but they certainly _planned_ to. Ergo, it was valuable to their plans that it remain intact.

(This, incidentally, is assuming they could on short notice at all - the explosion of the Bloodstone Fen stone happened after an extended period of experimentation and tampering. The mursaat could probably have done it faster had they been present and wanted to, but it might not have been something they could do in the timeframe they had even if they wanted to.)

> @Pax.3548 said:

>

> You said Lazarus was damaged and thas true, but did he required magic when he was resurrected at the end of LS3? nope, did he looked damaged because of the corrupted aspect? nope, he was probably even more powerful than balth before he absorbed the bloodstone. That either means he recovered during his slumber or after his new soul division, or anet just left out that detail. We'll never know for true so making assumptions here and thinking them facts won't help your argument.

Here, though, you're justifying that the present story is 'better' based on evidence from the present story. This is circular reasoning: you're basically saying that what was shown in the present story means that the present story was the only route they could have taken.

At the start of LS3, Lazarus' status was an unknown. They could very easily have said that Lazarus needed the power of the bloodstone in order to fully rejuvenate himself. Or that he had some other device that allowed him to harness the magic for another purpose. There are a lot of ways that could have been explained while still having the big explosion that got reversed.

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> Presumably it's because the titans **were an enemy the mursaat had never encountered**. Remember, they had the door of kormalie shut so as not to deal with them in any way, somewhat indicating *they've never faced any of the titans before*. I also believe, but i could be wrong, that the titans were immune to the mursaat's most powerful weapon, spectral agony, meaning that if an enemy force were to overwhelm them, they'd fall back on that and get overrun. Just because it didn't work on titans doesn't mean that it couldn't work on elder dragons, but even if it didn't, that doesn't mean that the mursaat couldn't have figured out another avenue for defeating the elder dragons.

>

> They also couldn't have ever faced the titans before, since the titans were forged from the combining of forces between Dhuum, Abaddon and Menzies (i forgot entirely the specifics regarding the titans and their creation).

>

> Just because you know how to deal with a powerful enemy doesn't mean you automatically know how to deal with a weaker one that has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. It's pretty much saying "medieval england should have known how to deal with plague infested rats because they could defeat invaders" (or whatever more appropriate historical reference there is, forgive my lack of historical knowledge). Different enemy, different tactics needed.

The elder races appeared to know of the titans - the Ancient Seer mentions how they haven't changed in the Hell's Precipice bonus ("Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans."). Now, the Seers knowing of the titans does not necessarily mean the mursaat were familiar with their capabilities, but one of their contemporaries certainly did.

How this fits with the titans being created by Abaddon and his allies isn't really well explained. My feeling is that the method to create titans existed well before Abaddon's fall, and the alliance of dark gods was simply making use of something that had been invented in a previous conflict.>

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> You seem to forget that the other 5 gods literally packed up and left, not just Tyria, but their own realms in the Mists, because of the Elder Dragons , without even attempting to warn any of their followers of the coming danger, and without attempting to do anything to get humanity off world like they did previously from humanity's original homeworld(which is how humans got to Tyria in the first place) They literally just left everyone to die because it was the easiest option available to them, and lore in PoF suggests they just went to another world to try again with new races.

Most of what the mortals know about the dragons comes from a scroll the gods left behind, actually, so it seems they did at least attempt to warn their followers.

As for the rest... the gods' motivations for leaving appears to be that they believe (rightly or wrongly) that if they directly intervened than win or lose, Tyria _would_ be destroyed. Staying out gives mortals a chance to find another way out of the situation, or at the very least, survive long _enough_ for the gods to prepare a new refuge to evacuate to. Essentially it's a matter of picking the least bad option.

> @Rognik.2579 said:

> No guarantee the wyverns are related to the dragons, though. It's very likely they're as much related to dragons as monkeys are to humans.

I generally think of it as being a scale. Drakes are possibly closest to the 'ancestral' species - the crocodile-like magicless drakes of Elona like Irontooth and Steelfang Drakes might in fact be an indication of where the group originated (which likely gives them a common ancestor with dinosaurs, but without actually being dinosaurs but being archosaurs instead... on which note, it is noteworthy that there are no pterosaurs in Tyria that we've seen thus far). Hydras are probably one offshoot that magically mutated to grow additional heads, while rockhides developed armoured hides. Saltsprays and wyverns are probably fairly closely related, with wyverns being larger but less intelligent.

At some stage, some mutation turned the tetrapod wyverns or Saltsprays into hexapod (four legs and wings) dragons, with a small group managing to absorb enough magic to become Elder Dragons and dominate the rest.

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

>

Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

>Taimi is growing into her own and I'm glad she's prone to making mistakes, but I do think that even her mistake (however potentially disastrous it was) is diminished by how the mistake was made during a period of lack of sleep. If she had made the mistake while at her best, then I think there'd be more legitimacy to her character arc of "oh crap I made a mistake" and trying to fix it.

That said, while the big error could be said to be from sleep deprivation, it was Taimi's decision to "never sleep again" because she was so excited by the potential of her research. She was only in the position where she could make mistakes due to sleep deprivation because she herself chose to do research on manipulating magic on a potentially apocalyptic scale while not at her best, and that decision, and the consequences, _is_ on her.