draxynnic.3719

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

> >

> > There are some indications, albeit subtle ones, that Balthazar took the role of a forge god in the pantheon (need to have weapons and armour to fight with, after all...), while Dwayna took the role of a sun goddess (light and warmth have been said to be in her domains).

>

> I have never heard Dwayna described as a sun goddess (is it mentioned when we speak to Hylek who worship the sun?), Balth could take the craftsman title sure.

In GW1's Wintersday events, she's described by an NPC as the goddess of light and warmth (alongside her more normal attributes), which are aspects that are normally associated with sun deities, in addition to the general concept of being a lifebringer. She was also the goddess of the sky in general, which would include the sun.

Like I said, subtle indications: nothing specific. She may or may not be specifically associated with the sun directly, but she certainly has qualities typically associated with sun deities (which I'd note aren't always male in historical mythology - sun goddesses were common in Asia, for instance). It's also worth noting that while Zintl is described as male by the hylek, Zintl has a number of attributes in common with Dwayna.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> You're also ignoring the fact that we didn't use any obvious unique weakness to kill Zhaitan, which is why it took more effort, not because Zhaitan was stronger (as I pointed out, it's explicitly stated that Mordremoth was stronger than Zhaitan).

Well, there were Gorr's experiments involving taking the energy of the Risen, changing it in some fashion, and throwing it back at them. We may have stumbled on Zhaitan's unique weakness without knowing what we were doing (it's not far from the weaknesses of Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth of using their own power against them).

> @Pax.3548 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.

> >

> > Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.

> >

> > When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be _entirely_ reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

>

> If the mursaat wanted to power up their soul batteries, only one bloodstone would have sufficed, being a prophecy that foretold about their race's end, I don't think they would have been ok just with preparing a fortress if they could have taken the bloodstone's power for their own, beside I think the bloodstone is being underestimated, the power it hold is enough to cause a nuclear explosion, can a single being hold that much power inside without dying? (aside dragons and gods) Of course if it were just a portion then yeah that sounds more reasonable, though it would't be the same feat like balthazar, who did absorb all of its magic. Still, I think you're overestimating the mursaat a little. They were accomplished spellcasters, and very powerful, but many of them fell to humans and suffered a major defeat at thunderhead keep, and were annihilated just the same soon after. The very "impenetrable" fortress they prepared for years was pierced by a group of humans, and there the supposedly leader of the mursaat, Optimus Caliph, and Mercia the Smug, both likely being on par with Lazarus in terms of power or even more in Optimus's case, were killed.

>

> They were mortals in the end, not too different from any other race, just more advanced regarding magic.

>

> Another point, we know the mursaat had the knowledge to phase between Tyria and the Mist, but I don't think it was as literal as it sounds, if they could really phase between Tyria and the mist at will, they would have avoided their genocide at the hands of the titans, hell, if that were the case then they would just phase out of Tyria the moment their life seemed threatened in combat. While I do believe they could indeed go to the mist (they did save themselves in the last cycle by going into the mist after all), I think they needed preparations and rituals of some kind.

From one of your earlier posts, you've admitted to not playing Guild Wars 1.

For the mursaat strategy in Prophecies, it was important that each of the bloodstones that we know of was intact. The Ring of Fire bloodstone was the foundation of the lock on the Door of Komalie. The Bloodstone Fen bloodstone was required so they could have a convenient location to take sacrifices to without having to go all the way to the Ring of Fire or the Shiverpeaks. The Shiverpeaks bloodstone was at least planned to perform a similar role for fighting in the Shiverpeaks, which they knew from the Flameseeker Prophecies would become a significant battleground before the Prophecies were completed.

We don't know where the other two are, so we don't know what happened to them. But in any case, I think it's more reasonable to think that the mursaat kept the bloodstones intact because it was important to their strategy that they were intact. Particularly since you're basing your argument on the assumption that the mursaat weren't tapping the bloodstones at all, when the fact that they could draw souls out of the bloodstones probably meant they could tap the bloodstones for power in general as well. In Episode 2, Lazarus (who we now know to have been Balthaddon in disguise) claimed that consuming the bloodstone was an emergency measure in the wake of 'misguided White Mantle tampering' - it would be entirely reasonable to think that consuming a bloodstone could be something that a mursaat (particularly one of the mursaat leaders) _could_ do, but might choose not to because in the long run its better for them not to. (Particularly since in GW1's time, destroying a bloodstone might have ended up in depowering a lot of their own people as well).

And I think you're grossly underestimating the mursaat.

They're killable, but in terms of being 'mortal' - to refer to mythology, they're on a similar level to creatures such as fey, genies, the Norse jotun, and so on. They're not gods, but they're certainly a step above ordinary mortals. Yes, a group of mortals was able to defeat them - but that was a group of the greatest mortal heroes of their time, who still required a potent blessing of the gods and the assistance of a member of a rival race to the mursaat in order to even have a chance, and even then their assault on the mursaat fortress required the assistance of a disguised lich with a powerful magical artifact. This wasn't simply a group of mortals going and fighting the mursaat on a lark. Most of the point of going to the Crystal Desert in the first place was to Ascend to a point where we wouldn't be auto-killed by invisible mursaat, and even then we needed to take further steps to actually have a real chance against them rather than being insta-killed by Spectral Agony.

When it comes to the titans:

Part of the point is that the titans are able to counter the mursaat's tricks. They're formed from tortured souls melded together into a single entity which then create a body out of whatever is in the local environment - it's entirely reasonable that, being made out of ghosts, they also have 'one foot in the Mists', allowing them to fight the mursaat on their own ground (we see, in Factions, that powerful spirits such as the Envoys have a similar capability to hide in the Mists while still being able to act on the mortal world). Essentially, using the titans against the mursaat was a case of Summon Bigger Fish - the mursaat are far more powerful than even the great heroes among ordinary mortals (even with Ascension and Infusion, Prophecies never expected us to solo a mursaat and win, although with power creep it became possible to take on equal numbers of mursaat and come out on top...), but the titans were a step up again. Going back to the mythological analogue, the mursaat are on the level of fey, and then we summoned demons to deal with them.

So, I certainly don't think that there's anything that indicates that a mursaat couldn't absorb a bloodstone.

This goes double for Lazarus, for whom we have a reason why he'd need a lot of magic. It's a plot point that we essentially damaged his soul in Eye of the North. Souls seem to have a lot of power tied up in them (which makes them a potent power source...) and the soul of a mursaat may have more power in it than the soul of a human. It would be entirely reasonable for a lot of that power to have gone into repairing the damage to Lazarus' soul, and thus instead of having a mursaat with the power of a bloodstone inside him, it could have been a mursaat which now once more had an intact soul, absorbed as much additional energy from the Bloodstone as he could, and any remainder was then small enough to be released safely. Or he might have had some form of magic battery on hand so he didn't need to absorb it himself (he doesn't appear naked when he's restored in S3E6, so obviously when he split himself he was able to store some equipment in the process), allowing him to use that energy for some other purpose later on - resurrecting his people, for instance. You keep claiming 'it can't happen' - when for me, it absolutely could happen, and would be more believable and satisfying than giving us yet another fallen god plot through the WoW trick of Flanderising a shades-of-grey character into an irredeemable boss to kill, all for the sake of a cheap twist and giving Kasmeer a crisis of faith.

Similarly, bringing back Menzies in place of Balthazar would have been more fitting to the established lore. Menzies is known for using deception in a way that Balthazar wasn't, was already known as an enemy of the Six, and if Menzies would make it to Tyria, there is absolutely no reason - unlike Balthazar - why he wouldn't regard destroying Tyria as inconsequential if it meant he had the power to overthrow his brother and the other gods that supported him. Using Menzies would have had the same 'we're going back to GW1 lore' effect that they were aiming for with the gods, without requiring destroying a major element of human and GW1 lore to do so.

At the bottom line, if ArenaNet had gone with Lazarus or Menzies as the final boss of PoF, I really don't think we'd have anyone arguing that they should have subbed in Balthazar instead.

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

There are some indications, albeit subtle ones, that Balthazar took the role of a forge god in the pantheon (need to have weapons and armour to fight with, after all...), while Dwayna took the role of a sun goddess (light and warmth have been said to be in her domains).

> @Pax.3548 said:

> Lol Imagine if it is really faren, all the time he acted like a stuck up noble, being all just an act xd, still I don't really think its faren.

The secret agent whose cover is a stuck up noble fop is a concept that goes back to the Scarlet Pimpernel in the 1900s.

The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.

Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.

When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be _entirely_ reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

> @Pirlipat.2479 said:

> What I found rather strange about them was that it looked like they were breaking up with each other while we were with each of them alone but when they came together it was all like honey and roses again.

The adage about absence making the heart grow fonder may have a lot to do with that.

Last time we saw Kas and Jory, they were angry at each other, but they've since spent time apart that allowed that anger to cool. This allows each to think about it and decide whether they _really_ think it's worth ending the relationship over - and in this case, their decision was that it wasn't. And if you decide that an argument isn't worth ending a relationship over, the rational thing to do is forgive and move on.

It probably also helped that the reason Marjory was angry at Kasmeer was Marjory's perception that Kasmeer chose Balthazar over her. Kasmeer helping to bring Balthazar down in the end, though, helps to demonstrate where her allegiance truly lies once the shock has worn off.

> @Bish.8627 said:

> Don't we see Ogres with Griffon pets?

We do, now that you mention it. Along with a bunch of other things that aren't available to playable rangers.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> 1. Literally who cares. Stories that attempt twists for the sake of twists are just M Night Shyamalan tier.

Such as making what appeared to be the return of a character that was set up way back in 2007 actually be the disguise of a god?

> @Pax.3548 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Pax.3548 said:

> > > > @Thalador.4218 said:

> > > > > @TriEdge.5149 said:

> > > > > When u buy the expac u are technically buying all the living world content also, so try to see what living world brings us and then comment. That is how I look at things :bleep_bloop:

> > > >

> > > > True, and as I said, I'll still go through all the episodes of Season 4 as it's free. However, just adding one more thought to what Farzo already perfectly explained; in your view, we shouldn't criticize anything that's part of a series (an episode in a TV series, a book or movie in a trilogy, a game/expansion in a franchise), because we haven't seen the whole product. That is wrong. They released a solid expansion with a beginning, middle and end that is great and immersive in its aesthetics, mechanics, music, combat and side-content, but the story and lore-handling failed miserably once again. You have to provide feedback and call out these problems so that they may change direction and fix these issues for future installments. Similarly, their storytelling has been criticized since the vanilla release, which wasn't even that bad to begin with, and instead of getting better, it has slowly but steadily gotten worse and worse with a few rare moments of improvement. It has been brought to their attention many times, during previous releases, yet they continue to pursue this direction blindly.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > Whew, that's a long post. However I disagree with the idea that Balthazar is the god of war. According to Kormir, there is still Six gods not counting Balthazar.

> > > > >

> > > > > Seeing that Rytlock found Balthazar chained meaning he had lost his powers as the god of war, thus he seeks to draw the Dragon's powers, for which Kormir confirmed that this power is greater than the powers of the gods. Balthazar is no longer the same god the humans worshipped in GW1. The fact of the matter is, the humans worshipped the god of war and called him Balthazar because they only know of Balthazar. Just imagine how misinformed and confused the humans are who worshipped Ares not knowing that Kratos already killed him and become the current god of war. This Path of Fire plot closely resembles the God of War game than a rehash of Nightfall. It seems that ArenaNet has created their own "Kratos" who kicked out Balthazar and left him in chains.

> > > >

> > > > I'm genuinely interested; where does she say that there are still Six Gods and not only five? Because there's absolutely 0 evidence for what you're claiming: first off, it seems they can now strip divinity from one of their own without consequences as if it was a simple demotion (a huge retcon in and of itself). Second off, Balthazar's forces in the Fissure of Woe (Devona, his Eternal generals, officers and soldiers who volunteer to be cast into Forged bodies) are still insanely loyal to him. One would think the gods would send out the memo to his forces staging in FoW that there is a new god of war in town taking over regular business after the PoF "Balthazar" disgraced himself with pride, wrath and insanity.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > >The problem I see here is that the OP seems to have elevated the GW1 storyline to a higher standard not realizing that the GW2 writing is on par with GW1 as it always has been -- not that great. In other words, the GW1 story paths and timeline were also messed up and immersion breaking. I still don't buy a lot of the plot lines and stories in Gw1, for example, the Charr attacking Orr (lol what? logistically not possible), the survival of Gwen without sympathy from other Charr, and many other. What I'm saying is, I think the OP is forgetting how bad the GW1 storytelling was that the player community has to come up with the lore explanation in an attempt to make sense of it all. In GW2, nothing really has changed, in some cases, they even improved.

> > > >

> > > > Because the stories told in Guild Wars campaigns and expansions were coherent, sensible, meaningful with journeys that were logically built-up and respected the lore established in previous installment and made sense in their connecting of dots from previous games. There were flaws, there was room for improvement, but they actually formed an enjoyable whole that made sense and didn't require to switch your suspension of disbelief into overdrive.

> > > >

> > > > If the examples you brought up showcases the caliber in general of issues you had with the plot and the lore of Guild Wars, then I imagine you're playing GW2 with some very powerful, rose-tinted glasses that screen out all the nonsensical, immersion-breaking solutions, retcons, as well as character and lore butchery that goes on in there.

> > > >

> > > > > @Roxhemar.6039 said:

> > > > > I don't know about that wall of text rant. But personally, I freaking loved Path of Fire. That scene where Balthazar launches his god-sword of death at your face and your screen goes full doom style, I loved every second of it. Even if I knew that my character would probably be ok, it was a chance to visit something new and see someplace new - Grenth's domain.

> > > >

> > > > Correction: that wasn't his sword, just a glob of fiery energies he hurled at you.

> > > >

> > > > It's good that you enjoyed it, I'm glad. Sure it is indeed enjoyable when you shut everything out and focus on the plot without bringing in established lore from previous releases.

> > > >

> > > > > @Pax.3548 said:

> > > > > You guys sure love to rant, but I'm pretty sure if any of you worked on this game, the story wouldn't be as near as good as you think you would make it.

> > > >

> > > > I'd gladly accept the challenge; believe me, if the possibility presented itself, I'd join the writing team in a heartbeat. And let the Scourge of the Prideful be my judge, but I'm confident I could have done a better job in making the plot of PoF coherent and more believable without having to resort to the use of retcons.

> > > >

> > > > Still, it would be greatly appreciated if you were to put the effort into countering the criticism and the arguments raised by many who didn't enjoy the plot as you did, instead of just berating them as rants.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yeah, I'm sure the tech and resources would be good enough to fully make that plot you have on your head reality (sarcasm) you can write a story, but it isn't you go make that story into a game, is the team that creates the game itself, the textures, animations, etc. (and that is NOT easy to do). And I won't bother discuss this thread, you can like a story or not its up to you, but most of them are just rants honestly, to straightfoward say it is awful (like it is a fact rather than an opinion) well, I won't discuss with ppl that closed minded, it'll be a waste of time.

> >

> > Ever come across the concept of jumping the shark?

> >

> > As soon as we saw Balthazar, my immediate thought was "They'd better have a good motivation for this or it's just going to be Abaddon 2.0". What did we get? Balthaddon having a spat with the other gods that lead to them casting him down, just like the backstory to Nightfall. At least Abaddon actually had a reasonably justified motivation, from a certain point of view (while we joke about him throwing a massive temper tantrum, what actually happened was a series of events: Abaddon's followers started defacing holy sites of the other gods in protest at the weakening of Abaddon's gift, the Forgotten started wiping out the Margonites, and it was his followers being massacred that triggered Abaddon to rebel. Balthaddon, on the other hand, was Flanderised into a glory hound that just wanted a big fight despite knowing how much damage such a battle would do.

> >

> > The first half of Path of Fire was one predictable disappointment after another. Vlast gets mentioned, then we learn that Balthaddon is after him, and I immediately predicted that our only direct interaction with Vlast would be helplessly watching Balthaddon kill him. I wasn't far wrong (the detail being that I was expecting it to be a 'we arrived too late' rather than a 'Vlast sacrifices himself to save us'. We go to talk to the gods, and I go in expecting exposition and a pep talk rather than them doing anything useful, because heaven forbid that human lore ever be used for anything other than spawning antagonists. Sure enough...

> >

> > The first actual surprise was that Balthaddon used the Exalted as a template for the Forged... but that was essentially an answer to a question no one asked. The Forgotten were servants to the gods, so it would make sense that the gods likely knew how to make Enchanted at least, and in fact, in Factions we saw a rebelling ex-servant of Grenth create an army of constructs empowered by imprisoned souls. So Balthaddon doing that isn't really a surprise. Balthaddon kidnapping Aurene... also very predictable.

> >

> > Things improved a little after that, but it does feel a bit like they've run out of good ideas and Flanderised Balthaddon just to make a controversial villain, and then failed to deliver on any meaningful twist after that, instead relying purely on the 'Balthazar is a bad guy now?' to deliver what was possibly the most predictable Guild Wars storyline yet. It's not great when you can predict what's going to happen by asking the question "What is the most disappointing direction they can take this?" Now, it's up to everyone to decide where the shark-jumping moment for them is, and I'm not yet committed to saying for sure that it is now, but, well... let's just say that it's a little unfortunate that this also happens to be an expansion where it's not an uncommon event to literally jump over a (sand) shark when going from one place to another.

> >

> > As for what else could have been done... just off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of possibilities. One is having the twist being that Lazarus is actually Lazarus (there was precedent that he didn't actually need all of the aspects in order to resurrect). Another is using Menzies instead of Balthaddon. Both of these could have followed pretty close to the story we had, without the effect of relying on Flanderisation to turn a character that some PCs would have chosen as their patron god into a villain. Sure, it wouldn't have had the pathos of being betrayed by one of the gods, but they did so little with that in the end after the initial shock that I don't think it makes up for the "Oh, we needed a villain, so we just took a powerful entity that had some shades of grey and flanderised them into a puppy-kicker" effect.

>

> You speak of abbadon 2.0 when most players in gw2 are new to the franchise, that alone is enough to invalidate most of your arguments regarding "balthaddon", and the rest is just your perspective on the story, I for once didn't think we would get killed, didn't expect aurene to be kidnap that way, was good to know the origin of the forged, all these things you say was "predictable and unneeded" well, I say it was needed for me as well as many other ppl I'm sure.

> For the rest I repeat my post, when you have limited time to make an expansion, limited bugdet and resources, you can't make a large story that englobes all ideas, you'll have to make the best with what you have.

> Regarding of your idea, Lazarus couln't have absorved the bloodstone because of the enormous amount of magic that thing has, no mortal can absorb such a thing (that was the only big clue regarding the return of the gods, one person thought of it and theorized a god had returned as only such a being could absorb the magic of a bloodstone), short story: the bloodstone wouldn't have explored if lazarus was real (because that would have killed him and us). Regarding Menzies... we truly don't know much about him, besides being balth's half brother and leader of the shadow army, but would you truly use that character in PoF rather than in a later expansion? I think menzies could be used better at another part of the story, as anet has plenty of room to work on his backstory and personality. Besides we knew since gw1 balth was unstable and not at all good or kind, like most gods of war in mythology (balth resembles a lot to Ares from the greek myth, not in looks, but in personality) AND if you look objectively, he wasn't evil, he was the god of WAR he does war, he revels in the killing, the fighting and conquering, I don't truly think he was evil, only true to his nature, the only problem is that he went rogue and wanted to get revenge on the other gods, and that revenge implied Tyria's destruction. If this last thing wasn't an issue, we wouldn't even bother to fight him.

Just because some people who are 'new to the franchise' haven't seen the old story doesn't mean that you shouldn't come up with a new one rather than rehashing the old one.

On Lazarus: We know that the current mortal races couldn't absorb that sort of magic, but we've known for a long time that the mursaat, while mortal (at least in the sense that they can be killed) are much more magically potent and adept than the current races. Lazarus being able to claim the power of a bloodstone is believable.

On Menzies: Yes, I absolutely WOULD use Menzies now rather than shoehorn Balthazar in as a villain while holding Menzies back for a future expansion. Menzies' main role is as an enemy for Balthazar - with Balthazar now having been turned into dragonfood, there isn't a whole lot of point to returning to Menzies. That's a plot thread which will probably now be left dangling forever, and fighting Menzies is certainly not likely to feel like a big deal after we've already taken his big brother down.

Either of these approaches could be taken with the same use of resources as we saw ingame, or even less, so I don't think your "limited time, budget, and resources" argument applies. Making Menzies, for instance, could possibly have just involved changing some lines and the model of the Big Bad - the overall use of resources would be about the same.

As for the final part of your argument... it was one of my pillars of my argument that Balthazar had his flaws and his shades of grey, but he also had his virtues to go with them. Balthaddon, however, exaggerated those flaws until he was completely defined by them. Which is essentially what the concept of 'flanderisation' in extreme cases rests on: starting with a more nuanced character, and exaggerating one or two personality characteristics at the expense of others to turn them into a one-dimensional caricature of themselves.

It's worth noting that in Nightfall, griffons were often seen accompanying harpies, which does somewhat imply that Elonian griffons are tameable (even if those in Nightfall were tamed by harpies rather than members of a playable race).

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @castlemanic.3198 said:

>

> > Having the Pale Tree take the place of Mordremoth feels, at best, like a last second deus ex machina that had two seconds of thought put into it. I'd rather not have the Pale Tree take any form of role in the antikytheria.

>

> I'd disagree there. It's been established as far back as the Personal Story that even rank-and-file dragon minions can consume magic, and the Pale Tree is much, much more than that. If it does turn out that non-dragon entities can fill the role, I'd consider her to be the best established candidate.

>

> Personally, though, before we go any further with the Forgotten/Glint plan, I'd like to hear more about the Seer one. Unlike the Forgotten, they actually succeeded in making something that, so far as we can tell, stored magic the way a dragon does. They might not circulate magic in the same way, which may or may not turn out to be important, but they could at least address the short-term consequences that are currently complicating matters. Even if it is true that the means to make a bloodstone are no longer available, there still ought to be four intact ones around, and with the fate of the world at stake I think they're at least worth digging up and taking a look. If they could be repurposed, or even just operated according to their original purpose, they should at least be able to serve as a stop-gap measure the next time an Elder Dragon just has to be killed.

>

The impression I'm getting is that the Bloodstones have essentially already soaked up about as much as they can - either they're limited in rate or in capacity, but the Bloodstone Fen stone apparently absorbed energy from the deaths of the dragons, but clearly did not absorb _enough_ to prevent the magic levels from rising.

Keep in mind, after all, that the original stone was made in order to hide away what magic remained after the Elder Dragons had already consumed most of Tyria's magic, with the stone only sealing away what had remained. It was probably never intended to contain two or three dragons worth of magic.

> @Walhalla.5473 said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >

> > It's unclear if Kralkatorrik or Aurene ate the remnant divine magic from Balthazar. It's also unclear why the gods didn't just kill Balthazar - aside from "well then the plot of PoF wouldn't have happened". It's also entirely possible that *if* Kralkatorrik and/or Aurene ate what was left of Balthazar's divinity (if any was left after igniting Sohothin), that it was only capable of being consumed because it was free and rampant, rather than in a vessel of some sort.

>

> I guess this was intended as a fate worse than death punishment. Balthazar who was the god of war and liked his power, was stripped of his power and left to rot somewhere in the mists for eternity unable to do anything or to be powerful. It would have worked, and he would perhaps wished for his own death, but well Rytlock and his sword shenanigans happened.

>

> Well its the only reason I can see for the Gods to left Balthazar to rot.

Well, the other possibility is that they didn't want to do something as final as killing him.

> @"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:

> You're right, Rurik believed in his people. He wanted his fellow Ascalonians to rebuild their strength far away from the Charrs. This implies that the kingdom was a lost cause when Adelbern banished him.

My impression was that he intended to come back, however, possibly with Krytan help. A strategic withdrawal rather than a rout.

Up until we received the announcement that _Guild Wars 2_ was coming and that the charr occupied Ascalon, in fact, it appeared as if Ascalon was going to hold on. Yes, it was devastated, but so were the charr: they'd lost their army in Kryta, their army in Orr, their follow-up invasion of Ascalon at the start of Prophecies, and a second-follow-up with the assistance of the titans, with indications in Nightfall that the fall of the titans had caused some unrest among the charr. Meanwhile, Ascalon had recovered a weapon that was prophecised to be its salvation in Stormcaller, and had raised powerful heroes that had returned to its defence at least once.

Even as Guild Wars Beyond continued, if we didn't already know that it was scripted that Ascalon would fall, there was little reason to think its fall was inevitable. The Ebon Vanguard was optimistic about the possibility of victory, and had successfully started a rebellion among the charr. Two things probably combined to make Ascalon fall despite this: first, the rebellion remained too low-key to significantly hamper the war effort, and second, Adelbern refused Krytan aid. If Adelbern had accepted the help of Kryta then, it's possible that the remains of the Wall would still be the border - just as Ebonhawke held out for centuries afterwards with Krytan aid.

> @Gray.8635 said:

> "The Judge," instance in the story showed us that not only humans are judged once entering the mist, but also Asura's, Norn,s etc. How can the Norn Spirits and Eternal Alchemy tie into this?

Both the norn and the asura acknowledge that the gods are something important. To the asura, the gods are 'important cogs in the Eternal Alchemy' - they recognise that they exist and are important, but they prefer to look at the whole picture than focus on specific parts of it, however significant. The norn, on the other hand, prefer to focus their attention on spirits that are closer to themselves and thus are more likely to offer direct help, but still consider the gods to be 'spirits of action' with power over the things they have power over.

You could view human religion as being something of a midpoint between asura and norn religion. Asura beliefs focus on an impersonal everything, that encompasses the entire universe but which will not respond to any form of prayer or worship. Norn religion worships relatively weak beings that regularly intervene in their follower's lives, providing a concrete benefit. Humans have a middle point of worshipping beings that are more powerful and important than the animal spirits, but which are increasingly less likely to directly intervene in the lives of their worshipers.

With all this said, though, ArenaNet did pull off something subtle in the instance - while the Judge is Grenth's delegate, the bird that leads you to your memories is a raven. This fits in with the norn belief that Raven is a guide to the dead in the afterlife. It's subtle, but the instance actually had references to both human and norn religion.

> @Rognik.2579 said:

> > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > I'm sorry, what is this "freedom" you speak of? My human comes from an absolute monarchy backed by divine right of kings where the Ministry can be shut down at her whim. My charr comes from a totalitarian military state where all subjects are required to serve in the army from birth. The sylvari have individual freedom but only the Firstborn and the Pale Tree decide on the overall direction that society should grow in and challenges against Ventari's Tablet are systemically shut down.

> For humans, yes, they live in a monarchy, but monarchs die while Joko is eternal.

In addition to this, I wouldn't say that Jennah shut down the Ministry on a whim. She tolerated - or _was forces to tolerate_ - having Caudecus as the head of the Ministry despite knowing for at least ten years that Caudecus was plotting against her, and having good reason to believe that Caudecus was a traitor. It was only when Caudecus publicly came out as the leader of the White Mantle, and when it was clear to basically anyone with sense that Caudecus probably still had supporters in the Ministry, that Jennah shut it down to prevent any further damage coming from there.

And even then, it appears it _was_ temporary. The appointment of a new Legate Minister suggests that the government of Kryta has probably returned to its normal functioning, but without the evil ~~Grand Vizier~~ Legate Minister plotting to overthrow the throne in favour of his own tyranny.

Granted, Kryta is certainly no modern democracy - but from what we see, there are few restrictions on personal liberty in Kryta, and there's no signs I recall of anybody being persecuted apart from those who would be considered criminals even in modern full democracies.

> @Incarne.4927 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Incarne.4927 said:

> > > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > Personally, even if one accepts that 600 range was too long (something I'm still sceptical about) I think cutting it down to 300 was serious overkill. About the only thing staff is really useful now is Empower, to the point where guardian would possibly be a stronger profession if Staff was deleted and Empower made into a utility. 400-450 would probably be justifiable, but 300 on something which was designed as a standoff weapon is ridiculous.

> > > I think adding a heal to the auto would justify the short range.

> >

> > We already have mace and hammer (particularly with symbol traits) for melee-range support. I'd rather have a little more range and a weaker heal.

> But the problem with the heal on mace is that you need a target and to use the 3 hit combo in order to get a heal out. Giving a heal to the staff with that range is very good in my opinion because there is no 3 hit combo and you wouldnt need to be hitting a target. I wouldn't be against increasing the range of staff 1 again but im fine with a 300 ranged auto attack heal. Mace 3 chain heal seems like a more personal heal than something to support the group with.

>

Mace also has the symbol and Protector's Strike (which triggers when allies within a radius are struck).

The distinction is that keeping staff as effectively a melee range weapon - making it even more so if the functionality of undetonated Orb of Light is removed - means that it's fighting with mace for a role. _One_ of those weapons is going to lost the fight and be regarded as useless except for doubling up if they both have the role of close-in support. We could end up "fixing" staff and then having the problem that nobody uses mace because staff does its job better.

Frankly, too, it would be nice for non-dragonhunters to have another standoff option than scepter.

> @Incarne.4927 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > Personally, even if one accepts that 600 range was too long (something I'm still sceptical about) I think cutting it down to 300 was serious overkill. About the only thing staff is really useful now is Empower, to the point where guardian would possibly be a stronger profession if Staff was deleted and Empower made into a utility. 400-450 would probably be justifiable, but 300 on something which was designed as a standoff weapon is ridiculous.

> I think adding a heal to the auto would justify the short range.

We already have mace and hammer (particularly with symbol traits) for melee-range support. I'd rather have a little more range and a weaker heal.

> @Incarne.4927 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > Orb of Light is in a bit of an unfortunate position because it's basically your long-range option (on the assumption that you're not running staff/scepter or staff/longbow) but the current mechanic is... clunky. I'd probably agree with making it ground-targeted, but rebalance the detonation effect so it can still have a 3s recharge. If there's a need for more burst healing, I'd put it on Empower or Symbol of Swiftness.

> Orb of Light has a 10 second cool-down when activated I believe. That's why I said 10 seconds, and we would have additional healing with Firebrand to burst heal when necessary.

It's twelve seconds untraited.

My concern is that the undetonated orb still has a purpose. The three-second recharge base orb means that a guardian can take a staff in lieu of a scepter or longbow (for dragonhunters) and still maintain some reasonably spammable long-range capability. Making it so that it's always used at the 'detonate' recharge destroys this capability, turning it into something like necromancer dagger where sure, a couple of skills are long-range, but ineffectual unless you're up close. Essentially, you'd have mace/shield and staff competing for the same role. Considering that most guardians will want a genuine melee weapon, and the Wave of Wrath boonsmiting makes Orb of Light even more important for maintaining standoff capability with the staff, if you remove the functionality of the undetonated Orb of Light, than the only times you'd be likely to see it is in situations where range isn't important... unless it's good enough to replace mace/shield and hammer as a melee support weapon, which wouldn't be good for either of _those._

Simply put, staff needs some standoff capability to ensure that it still has a different role to the mace.

> > Line of Warding is probably okay as it. Possibly reduce the activation time so it's more practical to use it reactively.

> I really think adding an activated pull to this skill would be awesome in order to group enemies and CC bosses.

>

Strictly speaking it'd be a buff, sure. It'd be a new option that wasn't there before.

I don't think it fits the concept of the warding skills, though (they're not the sort of thing you collapse to cause a pull, like Temporal Curtain) and all things concerned, I'd really rather staff to have enough range to fulfill a different role to the melee support weapons.

> @Knighthonor.4061 said:

> we been barking up this tree for how many years now?

The unjustified (in the most literal sense in that ArenaNet has not offered reasoning for such a big change) nerf to Wave of Wrath has added fuel to the fire. People who were content with the old staff are now looking for something to make staff actually worth using again.

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> What exactly should it offer? Support? Tempest already does that. Should it somehow turn the most fragile of all professions into a frontliner? Nah, I'm fine with what Weaver offers. It's a distinctly different gameplay, and that's enough even though the role is the same.

Considering that a Weaver using a sword is all but entirely committed to melee, it really should have decent ability to survive there.

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> None of these really fit the elementalist archetype. They exist in the game and ele exists in the game, but this doesn't mean ele should have access to them. The profession is about manipulation of raw elements, not intricate magical effects.

Three comments here:

First, dealing with elements does not necessarily mean that there are no intricate effects. Weaver in particular is about intricate combinations of elements, and the GW1 elementalist had plenty of skills that went deeper than just throwing around raw elements - wards, glyphs, the various 'glowing' or 'mind' spells that manipulated energy, and the ether spells that did the same.

Second... elite specialisations can bring things into a profession that weren't present before. Dragonhunter brought traps into the guardian. Druid brought strong healing into the ranger. Spellbreaker makes warriors into some of the strongest boonstrip around. There's no reason that an elementalist elite specialisation can't step outside of the usual bounds of the elementalist.

Third, some of this stuff could be worked into an elemental theme. For instance, we already have water healing - would it really be out of the pale for an elementalist to be able to conjure water that dissolves and washes away boons, wind that blows them away, or fire that burns them off? Or conjuring poisoned water? Or temporarily turning their body into an elemental form that is immune to conditions (resistance)?

Personally, even if one accepts that 600 range was too long (something I'm still sceptical about) I think cutting it down to 300 was serious overkill. About the only thing staff is really useful now is Empower, to the point where guardian would possibly be a stronger profession if Staff was deleted and Empower made into a utility. 400-450 would probably be justifiable, but 300 on something which was designed as a standoff weapon is ridiculous.

Putting a heal on it at about the same level as Solar Beam would probably be appropriate in cementing its value as a support weapon. Shorter range, but wider area of effect.

Orb of Light is in a bit of an unfortunate position because it's basically your long-range option (on the assumption that you're not running staff/scepter or staff/longbow) but the current mechanic is... clunky. I'd probably agree with making it ground-targeted, but rebalance the detonation effect so it can still have a 3s recharge. If there's a need for more burst healing, I'd put it on Empower or Symbol of Swiftness.

Line of Warding is probably okay as it. Possibly reduce the activation time so it's more practical to use it reactively.

Sure, it's possible, but we did also have Abaddon looming in the background at the time... and there's still the element of the mursaat being a powerful force that, from their own tablets, were planning on world domination.

You're trying to paint a picture of moral equivalence, when the worst case scenario you can come up with is that "if Glint didn't do this than everybody dies", and there is good reason to think that, directly or indirectly, the mursaat themselves were part of the threat. Likely, if there was any realistic possibility that the mursaat could have been part of the solution rather than part of the problem, Glint would have taken it - given the threat of the Elder Dragons, the mursaat are a pretty powerful asset to destroy out of spite.

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> Isn't a bit presumptuous of us to believe that the ED would destroy all of Tyria, and same for the Six for that matter...after all, the last time the ED's arose didn't the Dwarves somehow figure out how to pacify the ED's back to sleep without being wiped out...that story is still out there.

It was actually the Seers that figured it out, not the dwarfs, in creating the original Bloodstone. Problem is that the Seers are dead and apparently nobody else is currently able to do it, so we need to find our own solution to the problem.

> @"green plum.7514" said:

> I can't comment on Holosmith in group PVE, but from the open world perspective, if feels much like a less forgiving version of Reaper in reverse. Both classes have two stances that you need to juggle and one stance fuels the other one. The heat mechanic is interesting but very unforgiving and forces you to watch the UI all the time, and when you make a mistake (which happens fast), you most likely die. In comparison, Reaper has very similar solo PvE damage, is pretty much unkillable and much easier to play. Holosmith is fun, but stressful, and in the end its gameplay mechanic doesn't seem unique enough.

This is pretty much what I've been thinking. Holosmith is basically the engineer's take on the Reaper, but it doesn't have the necromancer characteristics that actually make Reaper work. The second health bar is a large part of this, but reaper also has a lot of other features that make it feel more effective and generally more survivable than the holosmith.

That said, I haven't played around with it enough to rule out the possibility that the holo will get better as I get more experience with it, but my feeling at the moment really is one of "interesting skills and mechanics, but reaper does it better".

The Scepter of Orr is possibly a likelier possibility - we don't know how the Scepter of Orr got teleported out of the volcano, but it could have been Glint. One of its effects was also to influence Energy, which could mean that it could be used to manipulate magic in some fashion on a large scale.

> @Thalador.4218 said:

> > @JayMack.8295 said:

> > Except branding seems to actually be able to reanimate the dead:

> >

> > I mean if you want to make the case that it's 'sleeping' then go for it, but that looks like a pretty dead Devourer to me. That could be the influence of Zhaitan's released magic, or it could be that branding could re-animate corpses but not spirits. Judging by the poison-smoke like effect it gives off when struck by lightning, I'm going for 'death magic' influence.

> >

> > Whether Kralk got that AFTER Balth's death or after Zhaitan's death, I don't know. It didn't seem to show any combined branded forces in the expansion.

>

> Wow... and no, I didn't mean to argue that it was asleep. :tongue: That's definitely not 'sleeping,' unless devourers like to sleep in the balled-up, dead insect/arachnid way. Guess Kralkatorrik does have the means to reanimate now; and that sick green miasma swirling around the newly "risen" branded devourer reeks of the Zhaitanic (such a goofy term) spectrum of magic. I'd still argue that branding in its original form - without the energies of dead dragons getting passed around like the flu between other Elder Dragons - is incapable of necromantic reanimation, but this scene was clearly to showcase that the Zhaitan-spiced Primo energies Balthaddon had munched on at the end of Episode 5 has now been claimed by Kralkatorrik as well. I hope this means he'll get to create branded Giganticus Lupicus and leviathan skeletons in Season 4 - if he's still in the desert somewhere.

It's also worth noting that Kralkatorrik was one of the closer dragons to Orr when Zhaitan died. So he may have picked some up some of Zhaitan's magic directly from Zhaitan's death.

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> I do admit that Gorea's dialogue was more than likely a justification of giving renegade a shortbow rather than something of any established lore, but again it's not impossible nor unlikely that Kalla could have used a bow considering how the charr are raised. On top of that, Pyre Firceshot IS her grandfather, making it at least a possibility she turned to her lineage for combat training. The statue is, ultimately, a statue, and just as we learn throughout all of Elona, artwork doesn't necessarily depict the whole truth. On top of that, there is another person Kalla could have turned to for learning how to wield a bow:

Characters can also have multiple favoured weapons. Kalla might have preferred the shortbow for ranged combat and the greatsword for melee. This would fit if she's a ranger, or just on the general principle that NPCs are not limited to the weapons choices of PCs.

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> GW1 Wiki page states there are 4 schools of magic - Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, Denial.

>

> You can say Rangers and Guardians specialise in preservation - (Nature preservation and Ally Preservation)

> Necromancers, Warriors, and Engineers would focus on Aggression, (Pressure of Conditions or Minions, Brute Force/ Leading an Army, or An Army of Turrets)

> Mesmers would be Denial

> Thieves would be Destruction,

> With Elementalists taking from a different school every attunement.

We were actually told in one of the pre-release versions of the elementalist page that Elementalists were Destruction.

The concept of the four schools was used in the original Guild Wars to explain why magic was divided into four professions - Monks, Necromancers, Mesmers and Elementalists. The generally accepted distribution is that monks were Preservation (and guardians after them), necromancers Aggression, mesmers Denial, and elementalists Destruction.

With respect to Guild Wars 2 professions, thief magic appears to be closest to mesmers and rangers to elementalists (elite specialisations notwithstanding), making them likely to be Denial and Destruction respectively, if they fit within the schools at all. (It's worth noting that the schools no longer restrict magic the way they once did).

Revenants come from outside the schools entirely - their power comes from the Mists, not Tyrian magic.

How they learn to access it... is a good question. I'd imagine there's a bit of training of how to learn to safely tap into a legend and maintain control, and then the legend itself teaches the revenant how to use its powers.

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> I'm arguing that Rytlock as a Revenant should not be wielding a Greatsword, As he is not channeling Any legend we cannot determine who or what (if anything) he is channeling. Sohothin is irrelevant in this case, as Sohothin is a one handed sword yes, but again - it's irrelevant, I never EVER stated Sohothin was wielded in two hands.

Rytlock may simply be falling back on his warrior training. As noted above, NPCs aren't restricted to the same weapon choices PCs are. As a warrior, Rytlock used a pistol in his off hand...

Or he may have access to a legend we don't yet!

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

> > >

> > > "_[Rytlock] brought the knowledge of how to obtain that power to the world of Tyria, making it somewhat common knowledge... a brand-new revenant starting on their journey will **not** have had to visit the Mists or undergo any more of an advanced process to access revenant powers than they would for the other core professions. All that’s necessary to begin training as a revenant is **knowledge of the profession, the faith and will to reach into the Mists, and an open mind.**_" Emphasis mine, but you get the point. Word of Dev is that if you know how, drawing magic from the Mists isn't any more difficult than drawing magic from Tyria. Sure, being able to start training isn't the same as having the natural aptitude to accomplish great things with it, but that's just as true for non-magical pursuits as well.

> >

> > Sigh.. I suppose... However, if being a Revenant is Common knowledge, why are so few charr NPCs revenants? Thieves have magic and many charr are thieves still.

>

> This is where the devs screwed themselves over lore-wise. Throughout Heart of Thorns, Rytlock, the first revenant, has had no time to teach anyone revenant magic. In season 3, he gets pulled away to discuss revenant magic and by the time path of fire arrives, he's done teaching and comes back. Thus, as far as in game lore happens, there are only very few charr revenants because Rytlock has taught most or all of them (as far as conjecture goes). The devs messed up here, and this inconsistency will linger, but it seems like he's only now teaching charr about revenant magic, as timeline wise this is the only point in time he's been able to do so and that's what the devs are aiming for.

As an additional note:

There may be few revenants still _period._ We're told that it doesn't take a lot to begin learning the revenant profession, but it's only been around for a couple of years and knowledge is probably not actually spreading that quickly. It wouldn't surprise me if, at this point in time, it's not widely known outside the Pact and the charr that Rytlock has apparently taught.

(It's worth noting, incidentally, that it may well be canon that several months passed between HoT and the start of Season 3, allowing Rytlock to have taken on a few trainees in the Pact before the Black Citadel caught up with him.)