ZeftheWicked.3076

Tbh i think the problem with shroud recharge reduction lies in the fact that it's just too powerful for it's own good. Put it in any trait tier - other two traits are dead meat. Put it in a given spec line - other lines get shafted. Tbh i think this should be resolved by means of profession mechanic, that specialization lines may alter, but not define.

For example have shroud recharge last 7 seconds, but only after 10s you "stabilize" and can safely pop it.

If you decide to pop it sooner (between 7-10s) you pay a penalty in form of having less lifeforce then you normally would unpon entering it.

Then you can put some traits in different lines that can alter that mechanic, for example:

* **Curses:** Instead of losing lifeforce, you self inflict certain conditions for premature shroud activation

* **Blood Magic:** You store up energy and receive a heal on entering shroud if you don't re-enter it before 10s mark

* **Soul Reaping:** Penalty is not applied if you stayed in shroud shorter then x amount of time during previous activation (for shroud flashers)

* **Spite:** Instead of losing lifeforce, you lose ability to receive any boons for x amount of time after entering shroud early

* **Death Magic:** Instead of losing lifeforce, your minions are stunned for 2s (condition: you must have an active minion on the field)

That's why he said "go far", and the reason i don't play reaper. If you want any damage from reaper, something will get the axe. Most often it's condi remove and you're dead meat vs protected scourges on mid.

Latest round of balance provided renegades with a huge alacrity **boost** not a nerf.

Alacrity is now a boon. That means it stacks in duration and is affected by concentration. Anyone who's dealt with alacrity ingame knows that that recharge speed reduction talk means jack if you can't keep alacrity up, preferably 24/7. Well a renegade no longer has those issues - Righteous Rebel + Orders from Above+ boon duration = 100% alacrity uptime for party for a very low price.

This blows old alacrity out of the water, because the ever slightly stronger effect (25% shorter cooldows vs current 20%, given 100% uptime), was meaningless in face of huge costs and inability to constantly maintain it.

To all non believers - just grab a warrior (or rev) and pop resistance when rooted. if roots are terrain you won't be able to move out without destroying them. If they aren't, and are based solely on immobilize you can walk in and out of them as you please as long as resistance is on.

As i said before: "more dps for something" should be a player's choice done via traits. Then those that are ok with the deal pick it, those that aren't stay tanky but hit less hard.

Hardcoding such things into a profession will obviously make one side of the fence livid.

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> They should provide a way to combo, to trap, and to outplay your opponent.

Oh they did. All over the capture point..

#33445 traps and aoes on your mid and counting....

One thing i will agree upon is that there should be preventive measures against camping enemy base after a won team fight.

I know that "survival of the fittest" but conquest isn't only about who fights better it also rewards cunning and map awareness. Even if you suck in a brawl, by being on top of objectives and good rotation you can still come up on top.

But in many games there is not such thing happening as it's just 5 bullies at entrance to your base and gg. Boring and not fun to watch.

In league of legens there are towers to prevent such "teamfight #1" stomps, making sure that if enemy team snowballs and you're getting stomped into the ground, it's only because you f-up again and again, and not because you lost first teamfight and hello, they're at your nexus now.

And i personally love conquest mode, prefer it far more to boring deathmatches. Capture points enforce build diversity (roamers, bunkers, decappers, snipers etc), dynamic matches (people roaming between points and map objectives make for various interesting encounters and strategies) and giving less talented fighters a shot at victory if they show to have better map awarness and coordination at getting map objectives.

Deathmatches usually ended if each group clumping to cluster of 5 behind a wall and then dropping ranged and aoe nukes on the enemy, hoping someone will make a mistake and they'll get a kill starting a snowball. Then off to enemy team's base door and game of siege begun....no fun.

I voted faster - necro is the #1 kill target in spvp, in large portion due to his poor mobility (other part being lack of godly defenses vs focus fire).

Also frequently i find myself roaming on my necro going for decaps, enemy beasts or just hauling ass to my home before enemy decaps that.

you can imagine how well that goes given necro's "mobility"...

So as a result the meta necro is forced to be a point holding scourge that does two things - vomits AoEs on point, and then follows up with regurgitating more AoEs...

Don't even ask about WvW where going solo on necro is less of a pvp experience and more of a "enemy ranger scan". You use your dead body to mark the location of enemy ranger...

Giving necro mobility would open up new roles and playstyle for us. Ones that can allow us to roam better, go for objectives, build bruiser builds that can 1v1 instead of being forced to rely on ally babysitter saving us from being kited to death etc...

Well of power is great vs sustained single condi pressure (like firebrand burning spam), but sucks vs strong multiple condi pressure.

Consider other cleansing options, of which necromancer has many.

> @"Morde.3158" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > Entangle "roots" you by means of immobilize. You pop shroud and you walk outta it, because immob got insta-cleansed and you got swiftness to get outta there faster.

> > But to be fair i am saying that as Foot in the Grave user, so the moment i shroud i'm immediately broken free from druid's cc he applied on me and can get outta there in an instant. If i was to remain pinned down by cc then going shroud wouldn't do much, because the immob cleansed gets reapplied while i still can't move and then i would indeed be in a pickle.

>

> wrong you have to kill the entagle and any skills like it it removes a normal immob just fine. Even then losing 25% perma movementspeed in shroud was a huge nerf and if you was getting kited before imagine losing the swiftness to a thief or something.

Sure you can do that, only:

a) while you're killing it, they are happilly unloading damage into your ass at range and you can'd dodge cause immob.

b) they're usually attacking you at range, and to deal with roots you often need to use melee weapon, or worse yet, switch to it from ranged one...

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Not a bad idea. Where would it go? Would it stack, and if so, how high? How do you work this in with the fact Power Necro doesn't use much condition transferring due to being on weapons (offhand dagger, staff) and traits (Plague Sending) that are usually eschewed by the build? Having a trait that only really works with Plague Signet (and Suffer if Reaper) seems a little weak.

Those are some good points. Ok then let's address them one by one:

#Where would it go?

**Death Magic.** Spite is already overloaded with power dps boosts, and it is good to spread certain aspect of gameplay among various lines, though not evenly. If you don't, you end up being the warrior that has only two free traitlines + mandatory defense..

Out of all the candidates i pick Death Magic - it already has a bit of power play going on there with Deadly Strength, and is the underperformer line that needs love.

Fitting new trait into it is also very easy - just merge Unholy Sanctuary with Shrouded removal into one trait and there you go, you got a free slot for new trait.

As for it's placement within the lines - i think these should be rearrange a bit

* minion traitline is fine - no changes needed there

* second traitline lacks a bit of identity - i would move putrid defense to it's adept line, making it the condi-based defense line (putrid defense, reaper's protection, corrupter's fervor)

* last traitline would be power + healing based. Deadly Strength as adept, Transferred Agony (my trait) as Master, Unholy Sanctuary (merged with Shrouded Removal) as Grandmaster.

# Would it stack and if so, how high?

Definitely not in intensity - that could break it, especially if in the future necro would get pulsing condi transfer. In duration however - that could be a thing for discussion.

# Power Necro doesn't use much condition transferring.

Because at the current moment it's a bad deal for power necro. This trait will change that. That'll also make at least offhand dagger a considerable choice for power builds as well. Now let's go over few condi transfer options:

* offhand dagger - still a bit poor choice, but generally all necro offhands aren't amazing as power tools, and offer way more utility then raw damage. Focus is obviously the top dog here, but in raid scenario where stalking vulni is not an issue and chills + boon removal doesn't matter, offhand dagger with 20% power dps boost can be a valid choice.

* Staff - oh yeah, you know you're in the pits if you're talking power staff. However this weapon is so bad, it's actually good, since it's the "whip it out and go shroud" weapon. It can be useful to reapers for quick condi shake + setting up dps boost then into shroud you go to deal real damage.

* Plague signet - this one is a natural fit - signets are by design very power build friendly - vampirism is the damage dealing heal, sig of spite gives sick power boost when traited, and now plague signet will not only dub as stunbreak + condi transfer, but a also a power spike tool. Not to mention the natural and desired by power builds synergy with blood is power)

* Plague sending - curses may not be the first choice for a power build, but they are still very viable one. Furious demise + deadly precision can give a looot of free crit chance, especially vs raid bosses. Now plague sending would not only offer a good condi cleanse, but also a dps spike right next to those crit chance boosts if you're running power. Not to mention that power or no power, the huge ulility of corruption skills (consume conditions, blood is power, cpc) can rarely be overlooked, and neither can master of corruption trait for them.

* necromantic corruption - it's pretty powerful and not sure this trait should work with it as it's not a direct transfer and is done passively, wheras the point of the trait is to reward good active plays with condi transfers.

* Suffer! -great synergy if you ask me! You get cold shouder bonus for chilling them, and now Transferred agony bonus for transferring conditions! Before it was useful for condi (deathly chill) now it would also be useful for power builds.

* Rune of the Krait - i don't see that having any use, this is a pure condi rune, unless with some unorthodox Grieving build...

Overall not everything would be rosy, but there are few good use cases (Plague Signet, Suffer!, offhand dagger, plague sending).

> @"Morde.3158" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > **that** change? It's ages old!

> >

> > If that's the case author has no idea what he's talking about. Current speed of shadows is awesome. Here are but few reasons why it is so:

> >

> > * easy counter to druid's ancient seeds - the bane of necro

> > * accessible for all specializations - not everyone plays reaper only

> > * huge synergy with unholy martyr - SoS takes off specific non-damaging condies, letting martyr focus more on damaging ones

> > * swiftness without being arm twisted into warhorn or spectral walk is sweet

> > * not every necro build uses staff (marks), while every has access to shroud

> >

> > Now if it's the 7s shroud cooldown that i understand and agree upon. But that can also be placed elsewhere. No need to bring back inferior trait for one good component of it, that can literally be slapped elsewhere.

>

> wrong that trait does not break any entangle you have to kill the root first

Entangle "roots" you by means of immobilize. You pop shroud and you walk outta it, because immob got insta-cleansed and you got swiftness to get outta there faster.

But to be fair i am saying that as Foot in the Grave user, so the moment i shroud i'm immediately broken free from druid's cc he applied on me and can get outta there in an instant. If i was to remain pinned down by cc then going shroud wouldn't do much, because the immob cleansed gets reapplied while i still can't move and then i would indeed be in a pickle.

#The core idea

Necro is a master of condition manipulation. As such his condi control game does not stop being a thing when he goes pure power.

* Dagger's Life Siphon's interaction (stronger heal and/or damage) with self and enemy's bleeding.

* Corrupter's fervor trait that is build-agnostic (equally useful for power and condi builds)

* Axe's #2 interaction with vulnerability on enemy

* Dread - albeit that one needs more love

Are but few examples confirming the trend - necro's condition manipulation is to be rewarded for power necros as well, with boosts that cater to their damage type and playstyle.

# New trait idea

** Transferred Agony** - receive a significant ferocity % boost upon successfully transferring a condition into enemy. (5s duration, +50% ferocity)

# How it works

The point is to make a power only trait that rewards condition transfering. As things are now there is a major hole in the wall here.

Transferring condies is a high risk/reward game for condi necros. Unlike regular cleanse, transfer can miss, and then you're left on ice. But if you're a condi necro then landing one can mean a nice dps increase.

However for power necro risks are the very same, while rewards little to none. He won't get much damage outta any condies he inflicts.

And here comes the Transferred Agony. Why the ferocity % boost?

To avoid double rewarding condi builds.

Condi necros don't have ferocity (unless grieving, but that kills their expertise), and i want to keep it that way. Giving a flat numeric value to ferocity (like let's say 300) would give out rewards to any build including Viper's that already benefits from strong condi damage and good base power.

Giving % ferocity cuts off that leeway as it is based on **ferocity you already have**. If you have none, you get none, keeping this trait a power build specific one. If you're running assassin, berseker, marauder, valkyrie, crusader or cavalier, this is the trait for you.

# Wouldn't it be OP?

I don't think so, as once again - it's based on your ferocity. Not critical damage but ferocity. In pure power builds ferocity can give around 100% extra crit damage, moving it from 150% baseline to around 250%.

Subject to 50% boost is that 100% you get from ferocity stat, so around 750 ferocity at lvl 80 when trait triggers (given you got around 1500 ferocity yourself).

That would move critical damage from 250% to 300% in most extreme cases. So in reality around 20% damage boosts if you managed to transfer a condi, on a trait that won't have 100% uptime due to limited amount of condi transfers necro has, and quirks associated with them (like staff on power build?).

So what's your opinion on it, fellow power necros?

**that** change? It's ages old!

If that's the case author has no idea what he's talking about. Current speed of shadows is awesome. Here are but few reasons why it is so:

* easy counter to druid's ancient seeds - the bane of necro

* accessible for all specializations - not everyone plays reaper only

* huge synergy with unholy martyr - SoS takes off specific non-damaging condies, letting martyr focus more on damaging ones

* swiftness without being arm twisted into warhorn or spectral walk is sweet

* not every necro build uses staff (marks), while every has access to shroud

Now if it's the 7s shroud cooldown that i understand and agree upon. But that can also be placed elsewhere. No need to bring back inferior trait for one good component of it, that can literally be slapped elsewhere.

whoaa, whooaaa boy! Prrr! Stay, stay!

How about some context first? What speed of shadows change? How does it relate to reaper? Some links?

If we're doing comparisons then let's add these facts:

Reaper's Mark:

* has a cast time

* is blockable unless traited

* is NOT a blast finisher (that's putrid mark, #4)

* is stuck on necro's worst weapon (blow marks in 3s and then you're stuck with nothing)

Stomp is great for getting ppl off capture point, especially downed ones.

As for fear, aren't you guys being too greedy? instant cast 3s baseline unblockable fear is pretty major. Necro's staff #5 (aoe fear + unblockable trait) gets 1s baseline duration, no more.

Throw bolas could indeed use some love.

And asides these minorities - how about a proper warrior rework **where he can have builds without defense line**?

And then comes Zef, takes a lazy look at all that talk and asks **the** question:

"So what?"

Does higher division earn you more rewards? Nope.

Is there anyone who gets above 50% winrate once system is done placing them? Only the top dogs.

Is anything below legendary top dogs? No.

Conclusion:

No matter your skill level your rewards will be same unless you reach the absolute pinnacle where there are no enemies equal to you at all, or the very bottom where you're so bad that even biggest losers put on enemy team still have major edge over you.

Everyone else?

Simple question - do i want to put all the time and effort it takes to learn ton of shit to get from my position to absolute top dog or not.

Hell no.

Epidemic is an iconic ability of condi necro, that defines his unique role as master of condition manipulation.

Also i **don't need a top dps at raids**. What i need is a strong **role** in them. That could be tank or **support** (wink, wink, scourge wink).

Warrior, defy pain (active and passive) uptimes are still disgusting and don't even ask about resistance. I also feel that not falling for full counter is still not majorly rewarded, unlike huge punishment for eating it.

Just adding a short reminder (cause i keep hearing this over and over) - necro corruption is and was not over the top. It is/was simply an answer to crazy boon spam that is present since HoT. You can nerf corruption right after insane overboard boon spam of other professions receives appropriate nerfbatting.

If it's Lily we can be sure we'll agree only on the vaguest of things. No difference this time.

Necro is in a undesireble, last spot for raids, and suffers from a lot of balance issues.'

That being said, i'm in totally different camp from OP.

* core necro needs love - death shroud is 2012 design that doesn't have half the synergy, fun and power offered by reaper's or scourge's mechanics.

* gutting reaper's life force degen was a **HUGE** mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.

* scourge nerfs (save nefarious favor) are understandable to me. With new barrier being actually viable, the cheapness of shades needed toning down and more counterplay.

That said there's still a lot left to balance here.

TL;DR; Necro needs love, but scourge shades are last things to bitch about. There's abysmall core necro dps and shroud, movie monster turned squish reaper, and scourge being too oppressive on point while too vulnerable in open field and far too inferior to be true support spec vs other end - game supports such as druid, water ele or chrono.

Guys don't be ridicilous here, and i say this as necro main. Shades needed a nerfbat bigtime, and the delay is well deserved in spvp.

On shades vs traps:

Traps go away after triggering, shade doesn't.

Each trap does one thing, while a shade can do any of 4 skills.

Traps aren't full capture point sized shade is.

Traps can't follow you while shade can be repositioned easy.

If you avoid/trigger the trap without falling into it - you just cost your enemy huge chunk of damage and wasted slot skills. Shades? The necro counts as shade himself, so catching him away from it won't do no good, and they're his F-skills, he didn't lose any of his utilities just cause you dodged that shade.

And let's not forget the barriers. Before they were a running joke of necro "support" so the OP shades carried the scourge. But now barriers are a real, viable thing (as they should be), so it's fair the shade brokeness gets some nerfbatting, now that the scourge is no longer a 2 hit kill.

> @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

> That's the problem, they increased damage in shroud form then decreased the time you can be in that form and return to it by increasing it from 7 to 10 seconds, thereby negating the buff to begin with. I am pretty bloody certain had they increased damage outside of shroud and nerfed shroud there would have been far less complaining. The fact is as many have said every time they buff something they negate the positive aspects of that buff in another way, it's horseshit and people are getting tired of it.

> Buff damage outside of shroud or return shroud to it's former duration so we can take advantage of the buff. Also don't ever lose sight of the fact that the LF nerf to vital persistence was not based on trying to bring that particular skill to the same level of their counterparts in other trait lines, it was done as a hurried solution to getting the scourge out without it being overpowered, since it would clearly have been a major game breaker. They are stuck in a never ending loop and someone has been butt hurt by Necromancers in PvP and it clearly shows up in the fact that all the balance is directly around that paly style and PvE is not taken into account. Bite the bullet, separate the skills in this class and fix the bloody thing properly.

Yes, they completely botched that one. Not only did they saboutage their own damage buff (most of it in shroud, but guess what, now you can't sustain it for more then few secs), they **killed the core aspect of reaper** - that is being highly tanky, durable monster, that relies on his shroud to both attack and defend far more then core necro could. Well now that's dead and I can easily attest that i feel far more tanky on my apotecary scourge, then any reaper build...

Make dark path faster than your character under chill....