ZeftheWicked.3076

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.

> The tankiest should have the least stability access.

>

> Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have gimped foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.

Let's be honest. Unless you got an a-net tag next to your name, you're not gonna pretend core necro is on pair with elite specs and an alternative playstyle with similar overall power budget. We know it's not, on so many levels.

And one of those "levels" is stability access. I'm not gonna complain about reaper, because being a melee spec it deserves better stability access.

But when a **scourge** of all things, the caster spec, with shades that can can be used even when face down in the ground still gets better access to stab (trail of anguish) then core necro i call bs.

Then again 'tis but a fleshwound compare to total sum of woes of the game's **weakest spec in general, not just among cores**.

Swamp Thing - lotsa vegetation generation and earth themed skills. Well we have that in ranger and druid, but those are kinda mostly visuals. What i would like to see is a character slowly taking over a zone as he stays in it (more and more vegetation with beneficial effects for him, while nasty for enemies), to the point that if allowed to stay too long in a spot he would become very hard to take down and evict from there.

Obviously, if forced to be kept on the run/move all the time, such character would underperform compared to rest.

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > Yes ranger is your man, and the top dog. Second place Dragon Hunter. Rest don't matter.

> >

> > If you wanna hunt with a bow, then just being able to use ain't gonna cut it. You need a set of tools to keep your game at range, and not let it get near, while you turn it into a hedgehog. Ranger's the nr 1 profession for that. You get a pet, traps, obscene amounts of immobilizes and cripples, solid cc, and good disengage with evades/stealth/longbow knockback.

> >

> > Dragonhunter is a guardian gone ranger, so he gets a longbow and set of his own traps. For that reason he qualifies as well, though he's not as deep or versatile in terms of ranged combat like the original, and can only use the longbow.

> >

> > Rest of bow users aren't gonna be to your liking. They lack the kiting/movement controlling utilities of ranger forcing them to quickly swap to melee weapons, or run a mile backwards at top speed trying to "kite" their prey by moving their feet faster in opposite direction...

>

> Well this is just wrong. Both Condition renegade and condition warrior use bow in their meta raid build and both of them deal way more dps than ranger for example.

> Guy mentioned stacking so i assume that he is talking about pve.

Yeah, **raid build**, where they got tank and healer to cover their rears and can keep shooting. Alone when you gotta kite something big and nasty, that's a whole different story.

"Necromancer is the answer" (my motto).

Deep, extremely versatile and with tons of builds.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I'll disagree, healing should depend on healing power, healing by a percentage of anything else is bad design. The unholy change isn't ideal, it's another one of those steps in the wrong direction that is pleasing to the players' eyes.

>

> The game have a stat dedicated to sustain, yet ANet barely make use of it. If ANet were to make use of it, the players would have to make sacrifice for their sustain and thus we would have less of those abominations with both high survivability and high damage.

And then we go into competitive modes where the necro abomination with high damage and sustain is the 2nd profession to drop dead under pressure bested only by a thief that got caught out. Unless he walks around with support firebrand strapped to his rear end, but that's not longer a necro issue.

That aside, necro is not like other professions and standard rules don't apply. Take for example parasitic contagion. healing based on % of condi damage dealt.

Vitality is similar case - for everyone else vitality is more max hp, case closed. Easily the weakest defensive stat except squishers that need that extra hp to survive burst.

But for necro the story is different - more vitality = more Life Force and unlike health, life force is restored by max LF %, not flat values boosted by stats. So more vitality = more healing for necro's 2nd life bar. Now another push was made with unholy sanctuary giving such feature to his regular health. And i approve. This is one of necro's unique perks (he profits off vitality more then others, due to his facetank nature), and makes Unholy Sanctuary a worthwhile trait compared to previous version.

Only thing is that Corruter's fervor still overshadows it, because of Carapace stacking...

I'm not "moving the issue" as the issue right now is that the only way to get reliably max Carapace is to slot grandmaster Corrupter's fervor.

If you're gonna say that adept version is more alluring then other two - that's your opinion, but in my solution all 3 adepts can net you high Carapace stacks and other choices down the road are not "get it or suck".

As for Unholy Sanctuary i strongly disagree with your vision. It should totally be coupled to shroud. You detach this into some sort of Adrenal Health type of regen - they will gut it's healing value to half of what is now. Necro does not have a shortage of ways to heal when he's in his base form. He has shortage of strong heals when he's shrouded (provided you're not a reaper with blighter's boon and spite). For that reason i prefer shroud-only sanctuary as long as it packs proper punch healing wise.

Also 3500 barrier on taking lethal hit? Hell no. There's a reason necro has 19.2k base health and 2nd healthbar. Flat amount of barrier (which is inferior to shroud's 50% damage reduction) is no saving grace. That's just delaying your death by 0.5-1s...

#Preface

The new Death Magic we got some time ago is a big step in the right direction compared to predecessor.

Introducing Death's Carapace spec mechanic shifted player "choice" of mandatory traits for the goal to real choice of selecting a method of stacking, then being free to build whatever the player wants. Not to mention far more engaging combat experience.

That being said, not all is perfect and goal has not been fully achieved with aches of old (Corrupter's Fervor) rearing their head. This rework is to balance that and give players greater freedom of choice, while evening out the value of traits in death magic (*cough* corrupters vs unholy sanct *cough*).

#The changes.

**Adept tier:**

------------------

This tier is critical. It is here (and only here) that methods for stacking carapace should be chosen. Other two tiers (master and grandmaster) should not have an impact on the matter (hello Corrupter's Fervor). This change allows for each of the choices to be equally good, and allow players to reliably stack high amounts of Carapace as long as they play to chosen trait's strengths.

**Armored Shroud** - Gain carapace while in shroud and when leaving shroud. (5 stacks)

**Flesh of the Master** - 50% extra health for minions (same as old). Now each minion you control pulses a stack of carapace every 3s. Using a minion's follow up skill grants 2 stacks of Carapace.

**Putrid Defense** - inflicting a condition on foes grants carapace (current corrupter's fervor functionality, without the protection part). Poison duration on you is decreased by 33%.

**Shrouded Removal** - Lose a condition when you enter shroud and gain Carapace every few seconds while you remain in shroud (1 condi, 3 carapace stacks). Gain carapace when removing conditions from yourself.

As you can see Putrid Defense gained Corrupter's fervor stacking method (which fits the name perfectly), and now makes poisons you take last less.

Flesh of the master will reward minion masters that want to keep their pets alive as long as possible, save maybe one exploding case that will provide some nice stacks on it's "exit".

Shrouded removal needed more reliability in it's Carapace generation. Now rewarding stacks for persisting in shroud and not just removing condies it is more potent.

**Master tier**

-------------------

* **Soul Comprehension** - Kills grant carapace (1 stack). Gain Carapace passively when fighting a powerful enemy (champion or above) - 1 stack every 2s.

* **Necromantic Corruption, Dark Defiance, Deadly Strength** - no change.

**GrandMaster tier**

---------------------------

* **Beyond the Veil** - take reduced condition damage while at or above the threshold of carapace stacks. Protection on you lasts longer (50% duration).

* **Death Nova** - same as before + new functionality - your poisons deal 33% more damage and last 20% longer.

* **Corrupter's Fervor** - renamed to **Reaper's Protection (it's baaack!)** I have few ideas for it's possible effect:

1. When at 25 stacks of Death's Carapace or above pulse Protection to self and allies. Pulses every 3s. Self protection base duration: 3s. Allied protection duration: 2s.

2. When at 25 stacks of Death's Carapace or above pulse Protection to self and minions (3s base duration, 3s interval).

3. When gaining Death's Carapace stack, apply it to nearby allies as well.

* **Unholy Sanctuary** - no longer separated between pve and competitive (always 2% max hp).

Changes here serve to give each trait more meaning and a distinct role. From the top:

Beyond the veil gets passive protection duration on self. Reason for this change is to slightly boost corrupter's fervor solo use case (now you don't have to be at 30 stacks all the time), but most of all to boost other two choices. - with free 50% protection duration other sources of it will be competitive when going Death Nova or Unholy Sanctuary.

Death nova gets bonus damage and duration for poison - it's a clearly offensive trait that generates poison fields, and necro who is lacking behind in condi damage could use the buff to his poison output.

Corrupter's fervor lost it's unfair stacking carapace advantage it had over other two choices, now instead it shares it's protection with party. Other ideas I have is sharing it with minions instead like in old Beyond the Veil, or craziest of all - sharing Carapace with allies!

Unholy Sanctuary - the trait is good imho, it's was Corrupter's Fervor that destroyed it with carapace stacking and protection without much of an alternative. Now it should stand on it's own two feet, as long as it's not butchered in pvp by decreased effectiveness.

#Summary.

Corrupter's fervor is the biggest woe of Death Magic. One grandmaster that dominates them all in terms of stacking Carapace makes Unholy Sanctuary a noob trap as some forum flowers mentioned and lesser choices feel insignificant. Death Carapace stacking should be all about player choice of method for it with no one trait taking over the show.

Other then that things like defenses when fighting champs (so no easy kills to stack carapace), protection duration on self and proper, potent poison damage boosting trait are things that i feel need to find their place in Death Magic.

Numbers here are obviously subject to change. Some things may be overbuffed. But that's not my job, the overall gist of it is still pretty clear i hope.

> @"Tsan.6431" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > It is not that bad I guess. For myself at least I never really depended much on the fall thing but I’m sure others do when kiting and stuff although gliders would have changed that up some what.

> >

> > It’s nice If it works with spectral pull, corrupted stab to fear, shroud fear, war horn daze, torch 5, staff 5, fear ring, and whatever else I miss.

> >

> > One extra condi for them to clear.

> > Although 2 torment stack would be nicer.

>

> And with Demonic Lore (scourge 7) torment add burn to your oppenements : each hard CC inflict burn <3

Ok, now **that** is an actual argument in it's defense. Extra burn makes it much better. I didn't know that, because i'm a core/reaper player and generally stay away from scourge spec.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> >Unholy Sanctuary: This trait now heals a percentage of your maximum health each second while in shroud. This value is 2% in PvE and 1% in competitive modes.

>

> This trait is what we call noob bait. Its not good and will only become good if it becomes absurd. When comparing it to the other traits in death it just under preforms. If this granted life force and put you in shroud when you would die then we could see it have some serious utility. Or if we took foot in the grave and fused it with Unholy Sanctuary we could start to see this being used. As it stands now, this trait is bait. you absolutely shouldn't be taking death for this trait and if you run death you should consider something else.

Trait is good (in PvE, the absurd reduction to 1% in pvp modes leaves me speechless).

It's the implementation of whole death magic that's making it look bad. Long story short - if we could stack 30 carapace regardless of Grandmaster chosen - then Unholy Sanctuary would be a worthy grandmaster.

You pick DM with unholy sanct and get 600 tougness, 300 power (if you trait for it), plus vitality based healing. That's a great package for high Vit necro that needs his defenses in one place.

And as for how to fix it - i'll adress that in my own thread.

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> It is not that bad I guess. For myself at least I never really depended much on the fall thing but I’m sure others do when kiting and stuff although gliders would have changed that up some what.

>

> It’s nice If it works with spectral pull, GS 5 pull, corrupted stab to fear, shroud fear, RS 5 stun, war horn daze, torch 5, staff 5, fear ring, reaper elite, and whatever else I miss.

>

> One extra condi for them to clear.

> Although 2 torment stack would be nicer.

It is that bad, it's trash. For comparison look at Spite's Bitter chill.

Also adept, also applies a condi (vulnerability) but when you chill.

Works great for power and condi builds. Gives 3 stacks not one of it's condi. Triggers on chill that is easier to access then hard cc and does not fail when enemy resists said hard cc (like unflinching mob or boss, because it's defiance bar is not active at a moment).

And most of all serves a real purpose in certain builds (usually reaper). Keeping 50% crit chance from decimate defenses with Bitter Chill is much easier, not to mention stacking Death's carapace if you got Death Magic with corrupter's fervor, making the trait power friendly as well.

And now back to Insidious Disruption - ball's on your side..

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> You really had any hopes that they would NOT kitten this up?

My condi reaper and core did. They stand corrected now.

So in exchange for losing fall damage reduction and aoe fear on taking fall damage we gain...what?

Same single 3s torment stack, only now on **almost** any hard cc (not on Flesh Golem's charge).

So an almost dead trait now is completely dead, and on arrival as well! As it stands curses adept has 2 dead traits and mandatory Plague Sending...

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

>

> IMO, core Necro is in a very good place. It can work as power, condi or hybrid and all of them are strong enough to compete with meta builds. Yes, there are numerous builds that also give it trouble and it suffers the usual Necro weaknesses, but I think in general, it's doing quite well.

>

> I'd be okay with small adjustments here and there but this is one of those things I wouldn't want. I feel it could put it in the spot light for nerfs because historically, when any profession is in a good place and gets a buff that's a _tiny bit_ too strong, it takes ten steps back with nerfs the following patch.

>

> This is mostly paranoia, but I do genuinely feel core is very good right now. At least in WvW roaming, I'm capable of 1v1'ing pretty much anything with full berserker gear, hybrid Cele/Grieving or full condi Dire/Trailblazer. Some things are a little harder than others, but for the most part I feel no where near as weak as I did shortly after Pof release. At that time, it felt almost impossible to beat anything regardless of patience or skill. Now, core has been brought up to a decent level while everything around it continues to get brought down, and it feels a lot more capable of having the upper hand.

**WvW necro**. In PvE it's bottom of all damage charts, among core dps profession builds, and in sPvP the stab shortage is still a royal pain vs meta builds and cc spam.

Not happening because reaper could then hamper enemy healing indefinitely. I do however see and agree with OP on the problem of Death Magic not giving good enough methods to stack carapace if you don't go Corrupter's Fervor.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > > > #Necro

> > > > >

> > > > > I would like confirmation if Insidious Distruption is triggered with soft cc as well or just hard ones. If soft then this is an amazing change that will really help condi reaper get back into game and also nice buff for core:)

> > > >

> > > > Not gonna happen:

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

> > >

> > > "**Non-disabling control effects**

> > > Some conditions will deal damage to enemy Defiance bar without being considered a disabling mechanic (particularly for purposes of various traits, as well as Stability). Some players refer to these conditions as "soft CC". Outside of defiance bar interaction, they serve a similar purpose as disabling control effects by hindering an opponent's actions or movement. " **same page on wiki**

> > >

> > > That's why i want the confirmation...but either way it's 4 days from now on, so i'll know soon enough one way or the other..

> >

> > Well it says control effects. And if we look at other classes... Soft CC's aren't included.

> >

> > Which makes the trait underwhelming.

> > Necro has

> > 3 sources of fear

> > 1pull +1 on reaper

> > 1knockdown + 1 on scourge and that's it.

> >

> > The only interesting thing might be the golems multihit knockdown, that could apply multiple times.

> >

> > The trait might be a slight dps increase for pve (having to use dagger offhand then) but nothing huge.

> > Biggest buff is plaguelands but let's be honest. On which raidencounter can you realisticly play plaguelands. Golem is almost always needed for cc on the few encounters, necro is at least decent and not trash dps

>

> You forget a few abilities. The sources of CCs:

> - Core necromancer: _Wail of doom_, _Reaper's mark_, _spectral ring_, _spectral grasp_, _ripple of horror_, _charge_ (golem), _doom_ (death shroud) and stab corrupted into fear (sPvP/WvW). **You can slot 6 reliable CC maximum at once**

> - Reaper: _Wail of doom_, _Reaper's mark_, _grasping darkness_, _spectral ring_, _spectral grasp_, _ripple of horror_, _charge_ (golem), _"Chilled to the bone!"_ , _terrify_ (Reaper shroud), _executioner scyth_ (Reaper shroud) and stab corrupted into fear (sPvP/WvW). **You can slot 7 "reliable" CC maximum at once**

> - Scourge: _Wail of doom_, _Reaper's mark_, _Oppressive collapse_, _spectral ring_, _spectral grasp_, _ripple of horror_, _charge_ (golem), _Garish pillar_ (F4) and stab corrupted into fear (sPvP/WvW). **You can slot 6 reliable CC maximum at once**

>

> That said, it won't be worth anything to take this trait to add 3 seconds of torment when using CC that usually have a bit of a cast time in PvE. It may be worth taking in WvW where you have hopes of corrupting some stability and thus gain a bit more "burst" but that's the best you can expect from this trait. In most case, you'll just take _plague sending_ because, in sPvP/WvW sending back condition isn't a bad option and in PvE it benefit rotations that make use of self-ailments.

You're too optimistic there. If we're talking condi necro (since this trait is a condi one), then lich form and golem are out. Who would give up on plaguelands, more so that it's getting nice cooldown reduction, unlike the other two? Maybe WvW players, but in PvE and spvp (node holding/decapping) i highly doubt it.

As you mentioned yourself - boon corrupts (stab -> fear) can happen in pvp modes, in PvE you're outta luck.

Core necro is boned...as always. Reaper can see more action...but let's be honest here - who would give up on Plague Sending for a measely 3s single torment stack on hard cc only? Unless it works with soft cc as well, or the length and amount of stacks see buffs - dead trait.

We'll just have to see, though from balance point this trait working with soft cc would be huge improvement. Condi Reaper and scourge would be back into damage race. Not overtaking others, but at least becoming closer to being viable.

Well of Darkness would finally do something (blinds are soft cc). Corrupter's fervor would synergize greatly even with power builds (chills on reaper = torment = extra condi = extra carapace).

...yeah you're right. Too good to be true. Why make plague sending a choice rather then a must have trait..

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > #Necro

> >

> > I would like confirmation if Insidious Distruption is triggered with soft cc as well or just hard ones. If soft then this is an amazing change that will really help condi reaper get back into game and also nice buff for core:)

>

> Not gonna happen:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

"**Non-disabling control effects**

Some conditions will deal damage to enemy Defiance bar without being considered a disabling mechanic (particularly for purposes of various traits, as well as Stability). Some players refer to these conditions as "soft CC". Outside of defiance bar interaction, they serve a similar purpose as disabling control effects by hindering an opponent's actions or movement. " **same page on wiki**

That's why i want the confirmation...but either way it's 4 days from now on, so i'll know soon enough one way or the other..

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Still looks like a trash trait for pvp modes

Agreed. The gutting to 1% is absolutely uncalled for, as pvp modes are the last place necro actually gets to stay in shroud for longer then few seconds.

In PvE however this is a very nice boost to quite a few builds. Solid healing in shroud is nothing to scoff at, especially when it doesn't demand investment into healing power but rather vitality, which doesn't hamper you from getting some expertise (trailblazer) or ferocity (marauder, valkyrie).

Spite + Death Magic builds can become a thing with their growing synergy. Death magic providing extra power, toughness and now strong healing when shrouded, while spite providing the punch, strong healing with signets of suffering + signet of vampirism and locust, and solid LF generation with Signet of Undeath, to stay in shroud longer and capitalize on Unholy Sanctuary even further.

Yes ranger is your man, and the top dog. Second place Dragon Hunter. Rest don't matter.

If you wanna hunt with a bow, then just being able to use ain't gonna cut it. You need a set of tools to keep your game at range, and not let it get near, while you turn it into a hedgehog. Ranger's the nr 1 profession for that. You get a pet, traps, obscene amounts of immobilizes and cripples, solid cc, and good disengage with evades/stealth/longbow knockback.

Dragonhunter is a guardian gone ranger, so he gets a longbow and set of his own traps. For that reason he qualifies as well, though he's not as deep or versatile in terms of ranged combat like the original, and can only use the longbow.

Rest of bow users aren't gonna be to your liking. They lack the kiting/movement controlling utilities of ranger forcing them to quickly swap to melee weapons, or run a mile backwards at top speed trying to "kite" their prey by moving their feet faster in opposite direction...

#Necro

I would like confirmation if Insidious Distruption is triggered with soft cc as well or just hard ones. If soft then this is an amazing change that will really help condi reaper get back into game and also nice buff for core:)

Firstly OP you should tell us if you own expansions. Because some professions (*cough* necro *cough) shine with xpac elite specs while are rather daunting as core in open world PvE.

**Ranger** is a good pick for you. From top to bottom:

1. Tanking is delegated to pet. Pick two tanky pets and 90% of the time bosses/mobs will focus them. You just have to swap them in time. If that's not enough, ranger does have varied, potent self defense options - evades, stealth, traps, complete incoming direct damage negation (signet of stone and more), protection, heals...there's fair bit of all that.

2. If you delegate tanking to pet, then you yourself can build on the dps side so there's that. Also if you rely on non stat based defenses (like evades, stealth, signet of stone) there's also very little tank you have to build. If you want to be beefy through stats (high toughness and health) while having damage, condi build is recommended with trailblazer gear or similar (Shaman, Dire).

3. Ranger has good access to stealth. Some of it non standard (blasting smoke field, runes of trapper + traps) but none the less good. But be wary of pet - poorly managed it'll attack mobs on it's own and pull into fights you don't need. Well managed will not be a hindrance and even distract mobs that you'd have to fight otherwise when trying to mine a node/channel a hero point becoming great help.

4. Biggest ranged dps would be deadeye's thing, but ranger can fare well too. Longbow for power damage, shortbow/mainhand axe for condi/hybrid. The latter will have you playing at mid to close range (setting a trap if the mob is not chasing you will require you to approach it). But other then that, yeah. It a **range**r after all.

5. No problem here. Rangers are quite mobile. You have leaps. backwards evades, tons of swiftness and even some superspeed.

6. You'd be pressed hard to find a better profession for it. Ranger not only can easily disengage in various ways, but is a master at controling enemy movement and position. Immobilizes, endless cripples, chillls, big knockbacks, plain hard cc, pets drawing aggro by force if needed (pet taunting enemy). Even if that all fails, as mentioned above ranger has stealth to just dissapear, heal up and reposition while pet gets the aggro again being only combatant left to engage.

Ha, bit too soon for this post OP. Recently they announced plans for necro changes (the part of the fall traits removal). Our fall trait will be changed to apply torment on applying control effect. Wiki states that "control effects" contain both hard and soft cc. If we get to apply torment stack each time we chill or cripple (along with fears ofc), then condi reaper might see pretty nice buff to his output.

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> It's not that difficult to do, everyone just needs to not use their CC skills until that break bar pops then unload them all at once, once the bar depletes he resets and it starts all over again. Since the fix I've been part of complete success runs where no Vigil are lost, partial success with some Vigil loss...and a lot more failures, but I think there's a bug with that too because the event fails with even one Vigil left alive(at least on my screen it shows 2 alive and if 1 of those 2 gets killed then it fails)...unless that's intended and that would make it rather morbid as you would be leaving the last Vigil survivor to his death instead of at least rescuing 1 of them.

Got a feeling all players that joined Order of Whispers or Durmand Priory are now patting themselves on the back for dodging a bullet - no Boneskinners hunting your ass!