mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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Hackers should be full on hardware banned.
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Never mind that not only can Daredevil outrun everything, it also has Swipe and Shadow Shot, Infiltrator's Strike to stick to targets better than anything. Plus Shadow Step has Shadow Return so while in the context of straight race it's only 1200 units, in the context of an actual game with flowing objectives it's 2400 movement every 50 seconds. Not only is it the best at a straight race, it's also even faster in the context of an actual match with combat objectives.
Thief just matter of fact is the most mobile class in the game.
Also never mind that when I did my tests I just ran straight Meta DP Daredevil whereas on Spellbreaker and Soulbeast And Mirage I contorted their builds far outside what their meta builds are purely for the sake of racing and they still cannot keep up.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
> > > > > > > > Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
> > > > > > > > Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills *over time*. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere *close* to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you *severely* underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for *1200* range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even *before* the time factor comes in.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.
> > > >
> > > > I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.
> > >
> > > To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.
> >
> > You mean like this?
> >
> >
> >
> > Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.
>
> Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.
I actually tried Mirage Thrust in this location and 2x Mirage Thrust actually travels a bit farther than Blink.
So this seems like something more pronounced and unique with thief and heartseeker than any sort of inclines negatively impacting dashes.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
> > > > > > Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
> > > > > > Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills *over time*. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere *close* to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you *severely* underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.
> > > > >
> > > > > But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for *1200* range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.
> > > >
> > > > Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even *before* the time factor comes in.
> > >
> > > > Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.
> > >
> > > No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.
> >
> > I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.
>
> To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.
Also I tested this on my mesmer with Blink and my warrior with Rush. Both "1200 range" skills.
The warrior doesn't travel as far because part of Rush's range is included in the attack, while Blink is just a ground targeted directional ability, so it's "range" is 100% accurate in regards to distance traveled. The loss on account of attack range is doubly pronounced using Heart Seeker because you're accounting the attack range twice.
Basically the type of shit you see "Fixed a tool tip" for.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
> > > > > > Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
> > > > > > Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills *over time*. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere *close* to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you *severely* underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.
> > > > >
> > > > > But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for *1200* range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.
> > > >
> > > > Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even *before* the time factor comes in.
> > >
> > > > Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.
> > >
> > > No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.
> >
> > I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.
>
> To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.
You mean like this?
Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
> > > >
> > > > Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
> > > >
> > > > Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
> > > > Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
> > > > Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
> > > >
> > >
> > > Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills *over time*. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere *close* to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you *severely* underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.
> > >
> > > But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for *1200* range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.
> > >
> > > > I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
> > >
> > > Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.
> >
> > Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.
> >
>
> I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even *before* the time factor comes in.
>
> > Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.
>
> No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.
I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > > > >
> > > > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> > > >
> > > > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
> > >
> > > Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
> >
> > Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
> >
> > Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
> > Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
> > Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
> >
>
> Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills *over time*. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere *close* to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you *severely* underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.
>
> But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for *1200* range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.
>
> > I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
>
> Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.
Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.
Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
> > >
> > > No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
> >
> > It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
>
> Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will *never* catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.
Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.
Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650
I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
>
> No. Only that it isnt the highest *horizontal* mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.
It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.
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Holy fuck are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?
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Is this a Cuilan thread?
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> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> Currently in spvp "all modes" I see 3x main problems concerning the intra-class balance & dynamic that are seriously dragging down the fun factor of the game. The first problem is concerning how conditions are currently working in a condi heavy meta. The second is how too much passive CC is making the game feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. The third is that support classes have seriously been buffed way too much.
>
> **Conditions:**
>
> 1. Condition play is too strong and too bursty right now. Since year 1 we've all seen how condition dominant metas always bring in the laziest, spammiest, sloppiest, and most RNG type of play, which players generally have less fun with for several reasons. Most of the condi based attacks in the game are AoE in nature or activated through traits & utilities that create these primer abilities that cause condi damage to happen through any attack the user wants, including auto 1 spam. The real problem here is that the telegraphs for these AoE abilities and primed traits & utilities, have little to no telegraphs at all.
> 2. All of the attack animations in the game are tied to power side damage. With power side damage, there is always a clear wind up animation and strike animation, regardless of the speed of the attack. However with condi based attacks or condi effects tied onto power based weapon attacks, they have slight tiny animations that don't even occur until after the skill is used or in some cases no animation at all. Without going into too much detail, I'll give a simple example to think about: Situation (A) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Holo, a Spellbreaker, and a Reaper. In this situation it is possible to counter play the telegraphs well enough that you can avoid most of the damage or maybe all of it. But in Situation (B) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Core Burn Guard, a Scourge, and an Ele. In this situation there is so much no animation no warning pulsing condi AoE, that you will get hit and you will take a lot of damage. I'm not saying that anything is OP or UP here. I am saying that this is the difference between when the game's dynamic feels good, and when it feels bad.
> 3. With power dominant metas, we've seen over the years that this is when the difference in player skill levels really shines. Good players can see telegraphs and outplay a class/build that normally should be beating it. But in condi dominant metas, the gap in player effectiveness between a strong player and a weak player begins to shorten. This is because condi dominant metas force a type of playstyle that is less about watching telegraphs & outplaying, and more about just running whatever statistically has the strongest attributes in the current given patching, because no one can really avoid damage. Sure, being experienced does matter, but it matters a lot less in condi dominant metas.
> 4. Condition builds also get out of control more easily than power builds in terms of being OP. This is mainly because of the way condi clear & stun breaks & other effects were implemented into the game. Most stun breaks and condi clears are utility skills and are often the same skill. We are talking skills such as "Shake it off" "Contemplation of purity" "Ranger utilities in conjunction with Wilderness Lore" "Plague Sig/Spectral Walk" "ect ect". So what happens is that while vs. power damage, a player only worries about using these skills for stun breaks. But while vs. condi damage, a player has to use these skills for clears and stun breaks. Condi builds, especially ones that can burst, often make a player have to cycle through their utilities & other abilities twice as quickly as normal. When condi builds are left too strong, they become dominant to the point that there is little to no practical counter play at all for this reason for forcing cool downs out of players too quickly with unavoidable nearly no telegraph AoE damage.
> 5. **My Suggestion - Due to how conditions were implemented into Guild Wars 2 in conjunction with how clears & stun breaks & other effects were implemented, conditions should only ever be attrition. Under no circumstances should any class/build ever be able to burst with conditions in the same way that a power build can burst. Condition based attacks have a negligent amount of telegraphs and too much AoE spam which makes the game dynamic feel sloppy, less skill based, and in general less fun to play.**
Nah.
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I had a write up for a mesmer Elite Spec that replaced clones shatters with Deadeye's Mark style Hexes that recast their spell effect whenever you would have summoned a clone. The utilities, Subjugation, I wrote up also functioned very similar to Hexes.
But yeah I want the next mesmer elite spec to focus less on clones and phantasms and onto the darker mind manipulating aspects of illusion magic.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > Don't take it mad but warrior were the definition of 3 in 1 skills. Mean I clic and it did multiple strong effects each clics.
> > > 4k old bullcharge = 1 evade + 1 hard CC + mobility + damage spike.
> > > 2k5-> 4k old Reckless dodge = old mesmer clone death on steroïds (traits who get removed gutting a third of mesmer gameplay because of cheese.). => main damage output when facing goku or boyce.
> > > Old berserker Head butt = same as old bullcharge = breakstunt + hard CC + damage + jump.
> > >
> > > Don't know if you understand some classes had to perform a 4 to 5 actions combo to do the same result as war prepatch.
> > >
> > > Mean now war have to choose between sustain or damage and can't have the two in the same build which is the goal of the last big rework and what every spec should be.
> >
> > Currently only warrior and elementalist have to pick between sustain or damage. Every other class gets both for free, all the time, in half their trait lines.
>
> When running power mirage I drop condiclear and had 1 breastunt. While on signet I have plethora of condi clear/disto while dropping pressure. That's the example of choice.
>
"**breast**unt"
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > If anything dagger storm should get nerfed to remove the stupid RNG projectiles. The melee damage on top of the reflection and evade is already enough to make it an extremely excellent elite skill.
> > >
> > > It doesnt have melee damage. Its damage exclusively comes from the daggers.
> >
> > It should just be a point blank AoE. It's stupid that the 3 second evade will randomly hit you and cripple you from 900 units with some of the least visible projectiles in the entire game.
>
> It would have to have its damage buffed up pretty significantly to compensate then. Not that I disagree that the skill is quite unreadable.
It doesn't need buffs. It's already plenty strong as a 3 second evade with projectile reflection with decent easy damage to boot.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > If anything dagger storm should get nerfed to remove the stupid RNG projectiles. The melee damage on top of the reflection and evade is already enough to make it an extremely excellent elite skill.
>
> It doesnt have melee damage. Its damage exclusively comes from the daggers.
It should just be a point blank AoE. It's stupid that the 3 second evade will randomly hit you and cripple you from 900 units with some of the least visible projectiles in the entire game.
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If anything dagger storm should get nerfed to remove the stupid RNG projectiles. The melee damage on top of the reflection and evade is already enough to make it an extremely excellent elite skill.
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> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:
> I just saw someone say Core Engineer is amazing and it has no weaknesses. Someone shut down these forums because there is nothing else to discuss here.
>
> This is just as bad or if not worse than the people that had the gonads to defend mirage when it was stupidly broken that literally you were seeing two of it every game. Anet should not listen to you people, period.
Imagine thinking the current state of Holo and Scrapper are perfectly fine.
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Don't be MAD a rev OUTSKILLED you
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So with Holosmith+Scrapper teams winning the MAT 2 months in a row can people finally admit maybe it's NOT just Holosmith that's op? Tune in next week to Dragon Ball Z!
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> @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"MidJuly.1839" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > In PvP and WvW staff phantasm has to be a top 5 worst weapon skill in the entire game. Thing literally does like 50 damage when it should be the weapon kit's heavy hitter.
> > >
> > > Staff 3 as it is right now, is arguably the WORST Phant skill in the game. It's only purpose is to generate a clone on delay. Biased much CMC?
> >
> > Oh it's 100% the worst phantasm. But it actually might be the single worst weapon skill across literally all the professions. No damage, no survivability, barely any utility, its basically JUST a clone generator and it takes like 7 seconds to get that clone.
>
> It does nothing. It's very weird.
Holosmith: it only does everything.
Mesmer: It only does nothing.
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> @"MidJuly.1839" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > In PvP and WvW staff phantasm has to be a top 5 worst weapon skill in the entire game. Thing literally does like 50 damage when it should be the weapon kit's heavy hitter.
>
> Staff 3 as it is right now, is arguably the WORST Phant skill in the game. It's only purpose is to generate a clone on delay. Biased much CMC?
Oh it's 100% the worst phantasm. But it actually might be the single worst weapon skill across literally all the professions. No damage, no survivability, barely any utility, its basically JUST a clone generator and it takes like 7 seconds to get that clone.
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In PvP and WvW staff phantasm has to be a top 5 worst weapon skill in the entire game. Thing literally does like 50 damage when it should be the weapon kit's heavy hitter.
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"Grenades holo is the type of innovation we like to see from players." -CMC
Mesmer Update Notes - December 1, 2020
in Mesmer
Posted
Hey at least mesmers didn't get nerfed, right?