mortrialus.3062

> @"Khalisto.5780" said:

> When we have bots of all 9 classes anet could gatter them up and make get a tutorial for new comers instead of throwing them against 4 man plat pt off hours

I genuinely think something like that would be nice for the game for complete noobs dipping their toes in the water.

I never minded scourge. I don't mind them being AoE condition kings since that's in theory supposed to be a big part of necromancer in general with scourge excelling. As long as they can be fairly easy focused with coordinated burst they've never really been the the most toxic thing in the game. The question is how susceptible are they to burst anymore with everyone's damage gutted post megabalance. I haven't run into one post megabalance yet so idk they could feel like pre-nerf core necro post megabalance as this truly absurd health sponge.

If anything should really change with necromancer is removing the cleanses from Spectral Walk and nerfing worm. It's kind of ridiculous that every Necromancer is walking around with more ports than Mesmer these days. Power creeping spectral walk was 100% unnecessary when they did it.

I don't get how it's impossible to code that? When Mirage was able to do stuff like Channel the Temple of the Silent Storm buffs like Tranquility and Mirage Cloak they cut that. I know we're largely talking about PvP but there are multiple moments in the PvE story where a boss stuns you as part of the story and Mirage can't dodge while under these stun effects. I don't know what in the game code could possibly be preventing them from doing this I could probably implement it myself.

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > The Mirror mechanic is garbage and most competent players avoid it, the utilities pretty much again not worth using, the whole thing boils down to the simple fact that Mirage is total kitten in general without MC. Actually without MC mirage isnt even an espec its core w crappy deceptions. IMO If Anet has big issues with MC then they need to do a total redesign on Mirage, BUT ohh wait they don't have the resources for full redesign, so they are looking for ways to "fix" Mirage, well then we need 2 dodges AND MC or just leave Mirage and stop teasing us!

> >

> > Seriously, maybe at this point Anet needs to explain to us what is wrong with MC and what they think would work to "limit its use" The way I see it MC was always VERY limited. What I mean is, MC has always been limited by energy pool and ones ability to apply an ambush when you dodge. MC is NOTHING but a dodge that opens up Ambush. Nothing else. Its really really dirt simple and I have never understood what the issue was with adjusting ambush damage. I really cannot help but question the basic competence of Anets "game designers" in general when I really think about this issue.

>

> yes i totally agree but sadly it will not work like that. i can just tell you what cmc clearly said to that topic (and what also was inbetween the lines more or less):

>

> **for them** mc is an unhealthy and broken mechanic, the ability to dodge while being stunned with endurance dodges should not exist in the first place, just as the ability to cover casts with endurance dodges should not exist either, at least not both in one dodge (obviously it was not cmc creating mirage for pof, dunno what happend to the devs creating mirage and why they dont explain the mechanics to cmc and why it is not as broken as cmc sees it, at least not on a class like mesmer and compared to what other classes still have and why they dont explain to cmc why the one dodge change is just unbearable).

>

> my questions about if it is possible to rework mc directly so it can lose at least one of these 2 "broken" abilities was negated. it seems to be not possible to rework mc like that. they also had no other idea how to deal with it (without deleting it completely, what ofc is not possible bc as you say mirage wouldnt be anything worth taking without that). so the only idea they had, was to just delete one dodge. that is as simple, as low effort, as hard and as clueless as possible for sure. i will not deny. but that is why we need to give them better ideas. bc how it felt for me while talking to cmc about mirage was more like he turned into a stone and was just repeating, that it is unlikely that they will ever revert the second dodge based on current spec design. they dont want to see a mirage with 2 mc available. so we need alternative mechanical spec designes will lead to the same goal: to limit the uses of mc. but at least without all the bad side effects we get from the one dodge change. it didnt feel like we have any room to discuss that goal from anet itself. it seems to be cut in stone. and i just try to work around that together with you guys. more i cant do.

Dodge while stunned is 100% toxic and should be removed. Mirage Cloak in General is strong, but really all it does with how it allows casting while evading is give mirage the sort of protective evasion frames you see on things like Thief Skills like Withdraw, Flanking Strike, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom, and Vault, but it's a bit more flexible in what you chose to apply evade frames to and it's on a significantly more fair and limited mechanic than evasion, whereas on thief you can spam things like Flanking Strike 3-4 times in a row.

Remove dodge while stunned and Mirage Cloak is largely fine imo.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Druid is actually on paper one of the better designed elite specs.

>

> On paper, sure.

>

> But on paper, you can also see that without the 20% nerf to pet stats, they are simply just Core Ranger if they picked a non-damage focused 3rd spec.

>

> Like, the fundamental difference between Druid and say, Marksmanship/Beast Mastery/Nature Magic Ranger is... Druid has additional stuff. They have the additional Celestial Avatar mechanic, the additional weapon and the additional utilities.

>

> They have less damage potential due to not being able to pick full glass cannon 3 damage specs, but that's about it.

And that's enough because staff and Celestial Avatar do change what a ranger is and what it does on a massive level while the fundamentals of core ranger still allow it to shine and have niches without needing to crow bar in nerfs to a spec that was already struggling massively in PvP and with that finally killed it dead. You complain about power creep ect. ect. but there's literally no argument about culling power creep when you're talking about elite specs that were already massively underperforming compared to their core version. The druid pet nerf was completely unjustified in an actual balance sense and frankly that's more important.

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Like what makes Scourge and Reaper good is because they very potently push Necromancer into specific unique playstyles. Scourge makes necro a more potent Condi and AoE spec at the cost of having a sort of turret based gameplay and no shroud. Reaper becomes a melee damage monster at the expense of faster shroud degeneration and being forced to take more damage in general because it has to physically go into melee range and open itself up for damage rather than kiting with normal Death Shroud.

>

> What makes Scourge so good, is that their class mechanic is fundamentally changed. Instead of using the mechanic of building up Life Force to then enter a transformation that removes utility skills, gives a different weapon set and drains Life Force while having LF replace your health bar. They simply get the Shroud skills as always available F buttons.

>

> This changes the way the class plays as a whole, as it's no longer focused around flipping into Shroud and losing half of your kit to be substituted by a plethora of traits that jack up your stats to compensate.

>

> While Reaper doesn't do this. It still functions on the exact same mechanic as core shroud. The "Tradeoff" of having faster LF drain is mitigated by having LF gain on auto attacks. The "Tradeoff" for being more melee focused is having Necro's only good mobility skill.

>

> The only notable differences that make Core playable compared to Reaper is that Reaper sucks at Condi damage which is relevant for PvP where Condi Bunker is a thing for Core (Which cannot be done by Scourge since Scourge's mechanic doesn't lend itself to being as hard to kill as Core Shroud even if Scourge has better Condi Damage output with more access to Burning)

I think scourge is pretty cool. I also think reaper is pretty cool. There have been eras, pre-megabalance before scourge selfshade loss where all three specs saw heavy use in Ranked PvP. Reaper isn't just faster shroud degen. It also is 100% melee while in Shroud. It fundamentally changes how you play necromancer by reorientating it towards melee, which makes it powerful but also means you WILL take more damage than Death Shroud where you're free to kite while attacking, preserving your shroud. And it isn't just core has condis, power core necro saw a massive resurgence post megabalance.

Seriously, reaper is fine. You're probably the only person I've ever seen that hates it. If you ask the community which was worse for the game for balance throughout the game's history, reaper or scourge, scourge would win that poll 100%.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Chronomancer? All they did was make shatters fundamentally worse and massively disrupt their playability by removing Illusory Persona.

>

> ANet's complete inability to balance anything doesn't detract from the fact that Chrono has unique shatters that bring something different to the class. Even if the only one that has a real functionality change is Continuum Split due to ANet not knowing how to balance Mesmer properly after making them hyper focused around Shatter playstyle since the removal of permanent Phantasms.

>

> Of course, it'd be far more interesting if they did go all out with more focus on providing support with shatters as opposed to them still being a primary source of damage output. But even in its current state, its attempt at "Tradeoffs" with a change of class mechanic is still infinitely more interesting than "Just remove some stats from the powercreep E-Spec"

>

> Even more so when it can still (relatively) easily transition into that state where it's entire concept plays out differently, as opposed to being stuck in some awkward spot where it's a matter of balancing out the powercreep with various arbitrary nerfs to aspects of the class, be it stat nerfs, loss of endurance bars, or just nerfs to the class mechanic (Such as Spellbreaker's 2 adrenaline cap and level 1 burst limit or Daredevil's loss of 600 range on their F1. As well as some people suggesting things for Mirage such as being capped at 2 clones)

We're going to have to fundamentally disagree, I don't think we'll ever find common ground. I have literally zero positives to say about the Chronomancer shatter reworks. Literally nothing. Chronomancer does not have unique shatters outside of Continuum Split. They are fundamentally the exact same shatters as core but worse. You still shatter clones, your clones still run at the target and explode, and they come in the exact same Power, Confusion, and Daze framework. Calling them "Unique shatters" or that the change was good is just ridiculous and indefensible.

Balance IS more important than Arenanet being able to pat themselves on the back and say "We made chronomancer unique!" while the spec lies dead in the gutter, untouched for a year when there was every indication what they were about to do would kill the spec.

Elite specs are always going to some form of interpretation of the core class with unique attributes, and every class's traits are so fundamentally ties to their profession mechanic that they will never truly getaway from them. They're never going to completely divorced from their core class, not even scourge does that. What matters is do they bring enough interesting to the table, do they have a unique niche, strengths and weaknesses that facilitates new gameplay styles, do they do it without completely stepping on the core's toes balance wise, and do they fit reasonably well into the competitive meta in general to be neither over powered or under powered.

What matters more for elite specs is that they have different strengths and weaknesses than core and the other elite specs. And targeting the right stats smartly is a blunt but effective way of doing that. Take another example, even Holosmith lost ALL their toolbelt skills for Photon Forge, it wouldn't be an appropriate trade off because of how much Holosmith's Photon Forge and Traits are some of the worst example of "It only does anything" specs in the game, granting them more power damage, condition damage, mobility, active mitigation, protection and durability, self healing, crowd control over core Engineer. Just completely ripping out the Toolbelt skills in favor of Photon Forge doesn't fix what's actually wrong with the profession in a competitive sense. Now if you gave Holosmith a -20% healing penalty for taking the elite spec, you've shaped it in a significant way, giving it strengths in it's higher damage and mobility, but in exchange for that damage and mobility it's inherently riskier to play and it gives you a clear answer for why you might want to play Core Engineer over holosmith. It'd become a high risk high reward spec that's very potent but significantly easy to punish when it missplays. That's more important than arbitrarily tinkering with the F skills for the sake of tinkering them.

Also after the megabalance it's lost past the time to give a single fuck about power creep. We're in an era where everyone is doing 30% less damage on the same build and stats in PvP than they were in Core GW2. We're in full on power decay, literally everyone is weaker than they have ever been.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Also I've said before the entire philosophy and implementation of trade offs has been fundamentally flawed, and feels scattershot, poorly thought out, and seems like it completely disregards the notion of balance in favor of being able to throw out the buzzword "Trade off" and tick a check off their to do list. I've said before 1000x but the better designed elite specs from a design stand point tend to be very focused in nature in terms of what the spec is supposed to do and augment.

>

> > A change I've always liked is a -300 vitality penalty to Mirage. It makes leagues more sense than losing an endurance bar, on the dedicated evasion elite spec and unnecessarily gutting profession mechanics in the name of it NEEDING to be different with ZERO regard in terms of actual balance, playability, or fun.

>

> Personally, I abhor the E-Spec "Tradeoffs" that are simply "This thing is now worse"

>

> Especially when it's trying to justify what is essentially just powercreep over Core - Given that at one point e-specs were _supposed_ to be sidegrades, giving alternate ways of playing and build options. While the current result is we simply have powercreep and you just pick an E-Spec because it's better than core, even with some penalty tacked on top.

>

> I much prefer the E-Spec implementations that **change the class mechanic** into something similar, but different. Such as the likes of Scourge, Chronomancer, Berserker (Aside from the -300 Toughness penalty and the janky need to run Rage skills) and to a lesser extent Weaver (It uses the same Attunements as core, but in a unique way via dual attunement)

>

> Not only does it help create a different feel for the E-Spec, but it helps them not feel like simply powercreep because of just being Core, but with extra stuff on top (For example, Druid is just core Ranger but with Celestial Avatar. Soulbeast is just core Ranger but with Merge. Tempest is just core Elementalist but with Overload. Both Guardian E-Specs are just core Guardian but with better Virtues. Both Engineer E-Specs are just core Engie with better F5 skills. Reaper is just core Necro with better Shroud skills)

>

> Since when the class mechanic is being changed, then the "Tradeoff" is inherently, no longer having access to the core mechanic as the trade for getting the new mechanic.

>

> As such, my preferred outcome for Mirage, is getting unique shatter skills. Ones that function in a unique way in order to emphasise the way that Mirage should play. Rather than just being core shatters with Mirage's Ambushes slapped on top as an additional mechanic and advantage over Core Mesmer.

Druid is actually on paper one of the better designed elite specs. Everything about the spec pushes Druid in one specific direction; sustain. Just the simple act of taking Druid means no matter what you will never be able to deal as much damage as a core ranger, let alone a Soulbeast. There's reasons for running Druid and there's reasons for running core right there without any artificial tradeoffs. It's hard baked into the weapon, the traits, and the utility skills. So there are reasons to run Druid and reasons to run Core Ranger and reasons to run Soulbeast without having to artificially crowbar a "trade off" nerf into a build that was already _genuinely dead_ competitively. The problem with Druid was a double whammy of staff and the Glyphs are not actually good for supporting teammates in a competitive setting and Guild Wars 2's combat system struggle where anything that heals it's team a lot to theoretically support them also heals itself a lot and becomes an absurdly resilient bunker.

Like what makes Scourge and Reaper good is because they very potently push Necromancer into specific unique playstyles. Scourge makes necro a more potent Condi and AoE spec at the cost of having a sort of turret based gameplay and no shroud. Reaper becomes a melee damage monster at the expense of faster shroud degeneration and being forced to take more damage in general because it has to physically go into melee range and open itself up for damage rather than kiting with normal Death Shroud.

Chronomancer? All they did was make shatters fundamentally worse and massively disrupt their playability by removing Illusory Persona. If they actually redesigned the shatters that followed a certain toolset, theme and design path and make it really strong in unique ways that's different than Core that'd be one thing, like if all the shatters were actually different skills focused on buffing your team and pushed Chronomancer into like a very potent teamfight support build like Firebrand or Tempest that can swing the entire teamfight. But what they did with Chronomancer failed on every single front. It doesn't provide a new interesting angle to a class, all it did was crowbar nerfs into a class so hard it literally killed it for a year in PvP because they ran with this philosophy at any and all cost with zero regard for balance.

Also you mention firebrand, holosmith, and reaper as bad examples of trade offs but Arenanet have identified those as having great trade offs despite Firebrand and Holosmith probably being the worst case of "It only does everything" power creep elite specs the game has ever added, which again illustrates my point that Arenanet's philosophy and handling of trade offs is bad and halfhazard and has zero regard for the game's actual balance.

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

>

> sry im not sure what you mean. all i was saying is, that i want to split balance suggstions into different and for that shorter and more focused on a specific topic documents easier to consume for cmc. i think doing more shorter documents makes more sense than giving him one big document to eat. you are all still free to add core trait and weapon suggestions and as said i keep them in mind for later documents. it will not be a waste of time for you.

>

> i also ask for more concrete mechanical suggestions to the mirage topic, bc the goal is to find a few different consepts to change mirage to balance out mc as alternatives to the one dodge nerf. saying make ih baseline ofc is one good suggetsion but it needs to come with some other changes, it needs to be put into a whole consept otherwise it will just be broken (like it doesnt solve any problem of mc, it would be just a straight up buff, ofc it will make balancing ambushes easier after but still first of all its a buff that doesnt sovle any issues from mc). i dont think im asking for too much or do i?

>

> @"mortrialus.3062" yes i agree to that basic consept of how elites could be designed. and i also can add your vita penalty suggestion to the document (i would be totally fine with that), its such an easy change anet might like it ;)

Thank you. Peace? I apologize for being rude. It's just in the face of stuff like how much mesmers have already discussed ways to change that class that would improve quality of life and balance and consistently been ignored, while Anet goes ahead with changes like removing Chronomancer's Illusory Persona for a year with zero regard for how Chronomancer would survive competitively, let alone how unfun it would be, or removing Mirage's dodge roll and acting like that's equivalent to stuff like Holosmith and Firebrand and the game is better for it, it's just easy to lose any faith or confidence in the balance team at this point.

Also I've said before the entire philosophy and implementation of trade offs has been fundamentally flawed, and feels scattershot, poorly thought out, and seems like it completely disregards the notion of balance in favor of being able to throw out the buzzword "Trade off" and tick a check off their to do list. I've said before 1000x but the better designed elite specs from a design stand point tend to be very focused in nature in terms of what the spec is supposed to do and augment. Like did anyone anywhere look at Chronomancer losing Illusory Persona and Holosmith losing it's Elite Toolbelts as trade offs and actually think these are equivalent changes and that removing Illusory Persona on Chronomancer would somehow give the class a unique niche with it's own strengths and weaknesses that allows it to succeed when played well and balance them competitively?

Here's a visual aid.

If Core Mesmer's capabilities look something like this;


Then Mirage and Chronomancer and really all the elite specs should be doing this to the class's overall capability with varying levels and in varying areas depending on what the elite spec's goal is supposed to be;



Mirage is supposed to augment mesmer and transform it into a potent, mobile, evasive condition skirmisher. Like 90% of what Mirage grants you access to is all about this. But their supposed trade off was to make Mirage worse at evading than core mesmer. It's similar to Scrapper receiving a vitality nerf and or if they gave Daredevil -50% endurance regeneration or make Druids unable to cast their dedicated healing skill. It just runs so counter to what the elite spec is even supposed to do.

A change I've always liked is a -300 vitality penalty to Mirage. It makes leagues more sense than losing an endurance bar, on the dedicated evasion elite spec and unnecessarily gutting profession mechanics in the name of it NEEDING to be different with ZERO regard in terms of actual balance, playability, or fun. Taking Mirage allows you to become significantly more mobile, evasive, and with higher condition pressure but the cost is that you're less durable than a standard mesmer. Clear strengths and weaknesses, actual attention to balance rather than gutting the profession mechanic with absolutely zero regard for the actual balance of the game the way they did with Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid, Scrapper.

If you can think of a change to the profession mechanics thats unique, fun, has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses and gives the elite spec an interesting or unfilled niche go for it. I think necro is a good example in that Core Deathshroud is extremely tanky, double so because it's ranged. Reaper has extremely high melee damage but depletes faster and won't last as long as you have to wade into melee range to take advantage of it, and Scourge is an AoE condition augment but it only gets barrier rather than a proper Death Shroud life force pool to tank damage with. But the way Anet has gone about the entire approach to trade offs feels completely haphazard and with literally zero regard for balance.

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>

> > You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

> >

> > Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

>

> ooof you are a sunshine are you? i will never @ you again, sry for dat, you dont rly seems to be up for constructive discussion anyway. in case you ever will waste your own golden time again for another post in this waste-of-time-thread could you pls consider to do it in a less aggressive and less anti- way and for that in a more respectul and constructive way instead? thx in advance! <3

I did contribute positively and constructively to your thread. I simply don't appreciate being @ed and talked down to and I doubly baffled the end result of this thread is for you to send Bravan's, who has explicitly said in the PvP forum condition mesmer should never be viable, trojan horse suggestions to the devs as one of the big takeaway from this thread.

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> it seems that we slowly reach the point where everyone who is interested in participating did it. i will try to make a summery for the document this or next weekend. but i would like to have few more concrete suggestions to specific topics from you.

>

> maybe few things before that:

>

> the first document is planned as only trying to give alternatives to the mechanical horrible changes of mirage and chrono. while the last patch gave ip back to chrono and there wasnt enough time to see how it turns out, i would even say, that we make the document about mirage one dodge alternatives first and waiting for chrono suggestions until we had more time to try it out.

>

> i read through all of your posts and a lot of suggestions are about full class reworks (incl core mesmer) or suggestions to weapons/ utility skills or phantams/clones. i am sure, that we will not get a full class rework ever, simply bc the pvp team cannot do such big changes without pve skill team and overall the resources of anet will not be there to do it. also tbh i dont rly like the ideas to make mesmer clone- or phantasmless or give them way more hp. im also not a fan of reworking mirage shatters into something totally different (as suggested make all f skills do only clone command skills to activate ambushes on mirage). i think for the identity of gw2 mesmer there are instant shatters with the normal core nature for all specs needed (but ofc they can be modified in dmg for elites and also can get further requirements which are elite based, like that mw does more dmg on slowed targets for chrono). i think phantams and clones are also basic for the mesmer spec to feel like a mesmer. also tbh i dont rly have that much of a problem to have my clones and phantasm survive so i can do my job, even in teamfights (wvw zergfights are ofc a different story). it barely happens to me that they die without doing what i want them to do before. our illusions sure have pros and cons for us as mesmer player and working around the cons is something makes playing mesmer interesting i think, just as working around the pros gives enemies the ability to counterplay the visual and confusion aspect of the npcs. but that is just my opinion. in the end it doesnt matter bc it will not be possible for anet to make such big class reworks anyway. maybe they create a illusionless elite spec next (i probs will not touch that thing then but i dont need to like every elite spec myself tho).

>

> **also i want to keep the documents short and focused on specific subjects. for example staff rework suggestions are for sure worth giving but i will not include it in the first document. still ppl like for ex. @"Terrorhuz.4695" who made a lot of suggestions for core traits and weapon pls do not feel ignored or as if you have wasted your time writing that. i keep that in mind for later documents.**

>

> for the first document subject (mirage rework, alternatives for the dodge nerf) there seems to be a big consensus from you guys about making ih baseline for mirage by turning it into a minor. i think too, that mirage should have been created like that right from the start. sadly it wasnt. the problem now is, that when you make ih a minor in current state of ambushes, it will be a huge buff, ppl rly seems to underestimate. also again im not sure, if anet will be able to do such big traitline rework (even tho they did it for engi explosive line tho who knows). so i think this suggestion sure should make it into the document. but we have to give up something for it. like current ambushes (condi and power) need to become weaker as baseline first. then you can create new gm traits to buff aspects of the ambushes or aspects of mc. how much weaker condi and power ambushes of each weapon need to be in the end to make it balanced is then anets job of fine tuning dmg and effect duration numbers. so we dont need to have beef about if the mechanical changes will have too less condi dmg for condi mirage. that is anets job to then fine tune dmg numberes, so that condi- and power mirage have overall enough dmg or utility rewards out of the mirage mechanic.

>

> also what i think seems to be key (doesnt matter if ih becomes a minor or not) is to rework condi ambushes more into what we have for power weapons. here i agree to @"bravan.3876" , that creating the need to dodge offensive is important to limit the usage of mc to dodge follow ups during stun or to cover casts while still doing a lot of clone ambush dmg during that. i think making clone ambushes mostly utility focused is a good way. leave the big dmg to shatter combos while mesmers own ambushes add some sustain dmg and dmg supporting utilities (might, temporary boni to condition dmg or duration, vulnerability stacks etc.) to buff shatters/ weapon dmg for both condi and power.

> to the question about makes it sense to add utility conditions over dmg conditions to create the need to dodge offensive and to make the whole playstyle more active i have to disagree to @"viquing.8254" , i work active and time my sword ambush and the clones sword ambushes by offensive dodges a lot for different purposes and outplays, just as i need to dodge offensive on gs a lot to buff my dmg on shatter- and weaponsskills otherwise i would not do much (sadly one dodge only ofc limits the ability to dodge offensive way too hard). meanwhile the dircet dmg clone ambushes add by themself simply by clones doing their thing isnt rly high on power (zero on sword, and on gs the mesmers ambush is the strong one, so the mesmer clearly lose a lot of dmg when being stunned and only gs clones casting their ambush when dodging). also ppl like @"mortrialus.3062" seems to underestimate how strong utilites can be, its not always only about pure direct dmg numbers. i would even give up the clone dmg on gs clone ambushes and let them only be there for the vulnerability stacks alone. so adding utility rewards to clones and mesmers ambushes ofc make the mechanics more active and with that also increase the skill need over pure direct dmg ambushes, where you just dodge attacks and be happy that your clones to dmg as a side effect.

>

>

> **anyway we need MORE concrete suggestion for what we could change (only mirage traits and ambushes) to get our second dodge back but still limit the usage of the op mc abilities without destroying the mirage ambush mechanic by deleting one dodge. and i would like to have more of these concrete suggestions from you guys bc in this thread lof of sugestions for exaclty that topic arent that concrete. so pls think about how would you rework gm traits to make ih baseline (how would mirage traitline look concrete) and how you would change condi ambushes to give them more need to dodge offensive (what utility condis or defensive effects you would like to see on condi ambushes?). or do you have a complete different idea which seems to be possible to do for anet with limited resources and and with a low effort co-work with the pve skill team that does not need to make ih baseline or can keep condi ambushes as they are now? whatever idea you have to exactly that topic write it down**

>

>

> that for the basics we have to start working from.

> i will make another post soon where i try to react to more concrete suggestions already were done in this thread to that topic. while combining them with my own suggestions. so we can further discuss different options while hopefully being more focused on the topic of the first document from now on.

You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" Anybody with Revocation will be able to deny a Jalis user in the middle of it's road with proper timing.

> >

> > That goes for the same with Resistance if it's re-applied too much at once and those who don't apply it with Spirit Boon often will have it for 6(8 with FT)seconds if using Pain Absorption paired with Demonic Defiance at best. Talking about all the way? Then they also heal which is now 8(10 with FT)seconds, then you calculate the whole setup after 5 seconds if they have the Energy, that's another 4 seconds so technically 12(14 with FT)seconds in total while they have to wait another 5 seconds AND if enough Energy again for Pain Absorption before swapping for 4(6 with FT)seconds then can add another 2 or 3 seconds depending on the traits with Glint F2 (Unlikely because transfers) for a total of 16(21 with FT) seconds, then you have to deal with Glint because if they don't swap they have no Energy to gain Resistance from anything.

> >

> > You think that's OP? Well they haven't achieved any damage, wasted a heal and are vulnerable to CC/Boon Strips all the way back to Glint to get all that resistance, the only reason why people would lose to that is because they facerolled conditions instead of ruining/waiting anything that could have turned the situation in their favor like NOT dishing everything out when the Revenant is CLEARLY on the defensive for conditions.

> >

> > Me press buttons, me do damage, me gets conditions back because I give opportunity to transfer, me die, me wonders why, me says condi rev op. Rinse and repeat.

>

> clearly l2p issue on my part and everyone else, better bow down before all those revs that I keep seing in my games, better gamers all of them lol

> and expecting sigil of revocation to actually remove resist when it matter is actually delusional.

> What it comes down to is the fact that you have to counter their build AND outplay them to stand a chance in killing them.

>

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" Anybody with Revocation will be able to deny a Jalis user in the middle of it's road with proper timing.

> >

> > That goes for the same with Resistance if it's re-applied too much at once and those who don't apply it with Spirit Boon often will have it for 6(8 with FT)seconds if using Pain Absorption paired with Demonic Defiance at best. Talking about all the way? Then they also heal which is now 8(10 with FT)seconds, then you calculate the whole setup after 5 seconds if they have the Energy, that's another 4 seconds so technically 12(14 with FT)seconds in total while they have to wait another 5 seconds AND if enough Energy again for Pain Absorption before swapping for 4(6 with FT)seconds then can add another 2 or 3 seconds depending on the traits with Glint F2 (Unlikely because transfers) for a total of 16(21 with FT) seconds, then you have to deal with Glint because if they don't swap they have no Energy to gain Resistance from anything.

> >

> > You think that's OP? Well they haven't achieved any damage, wasted a heal and are vulnerable to CC/Boon Strips all the way back to Glint to get all that resistance, the only reason why people would lose to that is because they facerolled conditions instead of ruining/waiting anything that could have turned the situation in their favor like NOT dishing everything out when the Revenant is CLEARLY on the defensive for conditions.

> >

> > Me press buttons, me do damage, me gets conditions back because I give opportunity to transfer, me die, me wonders why, me says condi rev op. Rinse and repeat.

>

> clearly l2p issue on my part and everyone else, better bow down before all those revs that I keep seing in my games, better gamers all of them lol

> and expecting sigil of revocation to actually remove resist when it matter is actually delusional.

> What it comes down to is the fact that you have to counter their build AND outplay them to stand a chance in killing them.

>

Don't be MAD a rev OUTSKILLED you

I'd rather not see phase Retreat changed. Knowing and landing tricky ports is a huge part of the fun and making it ground targeted dumbs it down.

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> For Mirage, I'd really just reinstate the second dodge bar and just remove one clone slot. I'd like Mesmer to be for optimal damage, Chrono for group support and Mirage for personal sustain. If another elite spec comes in, make it THE damage choice (or some other particular niche) and promote base Mesmer as an unrestricted jack of all trades, master of none choice.

Literally what part of mirage even suggests it should be a sustain build? 90% of everything on it is either mobility, evasion, or condition. There's no healing like Celestial Avatar or druid staff, no barrier like scrapper. No resistance or blocks.

One of the main problems with condition mesmer in general right now is that it was more or less the only class before the megabalance patch that was using the Expertise amulets and runes, and with those removed it took a massive loss in it's damage compared to most other condition builds. Condition mesmer revolves around Cry of Frustration to do lethal damage and Cry of Frustration and it's traits have been gutted to the point where the skill is super limp even with full trait and stat investment into it. It's a 25 second primary damage cooldown requiring three clones and the mesmer in melee range that does 3 seconds of confusion. Nothing is taking more than 3k damage from a 25 second primary damage cooldown. And Cry of Frustration isn't like Mind Wrack in that you can spawn one clone in melee range and be in melee range and still get 70% of the skill's maximum value. It's 100% additive in how it scales with clones.

The expertise amulets should get added back to the game or the duration of skills that are supposed to be high value should go up. Mesmer was the only condition class that actually had to suffer the loss of losing 50% condition duration because of the megabalance. On it's face a 25 second cooldown for 3 seconds of confusion should show how hilariously undertuned mesmer's condition damage is post megabalance.

Also Infinite Horizons was never a particularly strong trait for PvP aside from staff where there was an oversight in ensuring the clones had weaker attacks as their condition are 100% the capabilities of the mesmer itself. Infinite Horizon became the defacto choice after a double whammy of Anet completely nuking condi shatters to not even being worth doing anymore and Elusive Mind was nerfed into becoming a massive massive liability. If we were still at pre-megabalance numbers and we got the Elusive Mind rework condi mirage would probably have swapped to running that. Other than staff none of the ambushes did more than boost individual ambush attack damage by 50%.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon when it was meta in terms of health of the game was that clones would ambush even without the mesmer's input, which was an actual toxic interaction of the trait that wouldn't be an issue if they just made it so that clones ambush when the mirage ambushes, not immediately when Mirage gets Mirage Cloak.

Also they should unnerf the staff ambush on the Mirage itself. It should have always followed the reduced duration/stacks of the other ambush skills and when they nerfed it they shouldn't have touched the actual mirage's damage.

The ambush attacks are basically a bandaid that patches up mesmer's generally weak weapon kits. All of the Mirage ambushes give the weapons something they're lacking that roundsout the kits.

Greatsword's auto attack is a single target beam that can pierce and Split Surge gives high target AOE cleave by allowing you and your clones to tag tons of target at once.

Sword's Mirage thrust dazes and that's nice, but what's most important on the kit is the mobility, which helps the kit both as an exclusively melee kit as Illusionary Leap is pretty weak compared to the likes of Infiltaror's Strike, Shadow Strike, Heartseeker, Rush, Swoop, and it makes it more potent at out of combat roaming.

Imaginary Axes gives it a modest range projectile attack which helps it keep pressure on fast moving targets, especially with how unreliable Axes of Symmetry is considering the rest of the kit is entirely melee.

Scepter's Illusionary Barrage originally had a slightly Shorter Phase retreat effect which was unfortunately clunky and scrapped before PoF but could have been really nice for the skill had there been more of a way to control when you attack and when you port. It doesn't provide much more damage than standard autoattacking. But it does provide significantly faster projectiles for tagging faster moving targets, especially ones trying to flee as Scepter projectiles struggle to hit anything moving with how slow they are and how poor their tracking is.

Staff is almost entirely an unconventional defensive weapon kit. Even it's phantasm is pretty low impact on the damage front. The ambush patches up staff's main weakness in that it has no real proper skill shot to do damage by giving it a potent but fair damage attack with a nice wind up and tell and projectile that's very fair to dodge and counter so it's a bit more even as a weapon kit.

Complaining about the ambushes in their current form aside from how heavily over nerfed most of them are at this point, seems so incredibly misguided to me. All of the ambushes give the weapons something fun and bandaids them to be more well rounded kits akin to other profession's weapons. Like literally, what can you even add that's better for the weapons than what they already have on like a design on paper perspective? Some cripple or a blind or immobilize? Like really? It's like complaining about how Chronomancer's Time Catches Up gives shatters a reasonable chance to actual hit the target if you're casting from range so shotgunning clones right in an opponent's face isn't a necessity 100% of the time. They're fine.

The only one I can see reworking is the scepter one because it's the weakest as it's just autoattacking level damage that flies faster. But those faster projectiles have absolutely secured kills for me on fleeing target that scepter as a kit just literally cannot do otherwise if they aren't using skills while being hit by Confusing Images.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

> >

> > God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> >

> >

> >

>

> No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

>

> Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power, because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly only pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and without condi ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

>

> Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

Your suggestions not only prevent cmirage from getting competitive damage levels out of weapon skills in PvP it would also literally destroy condi mirage in PvE as well because of your stupid"condi weapons shouldn't do condi damage" nonsense philosophy.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

God will you fuck off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > You guys should stop qqing, these changes to chrono are kitten great! Except for the fact that they didnt rework chronophantasma.

> >

> > Mirage.

>

> Yeah the mirage changes were kitten

It's it's hard to feel good about changes that everyone called out were terrible and would kill the class outside of raid settings that they pulled the trigger on anyway.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> You guys should stop qqing, these changes to chrono are kitten great! Except for the fact that they didnt rework chronophantasma.

Mirage.

> @"Magolith.9412" said:

> > Mirage Retreat: This skill no longer breaks enemy targeting.

> Interesting. Are mirages in PVP running this? I pretty much only roam WVW anymore and have *never* seen this skill used.

No.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Finally Anet does a revert.

>

>

If Anet listened to mesmers they wouldn't have made that stupid Chronomancer change in the first place

No Explosives Entrance or Grenade Barrage adjustment or any substantial Herald adjustment which is wild since like every ranked game is like 40% Grenade Holos and 40% Heralds. Shaving some protection off the Elite Facet and the shield heal isn't going to do anything in terms of how dominant both condi and power herald are in PvP right now.

I don't get the desire to break ambushes from Mirage Cloak. Aside from Axe none of the Ambush skills can be cast to completion within the window of Mirage Cloak and with Axe the animation after casting still has a long windup you can predict and react to. When you factor in the 0.25 second window before you're able to cast the ambush, Sword, Greatsword, Staff, and Scepter all offer plenty of time within the animation to interrupt. With staff you're still vulnerable for 0.5 seconds of the cast, scepter you're vulnerable for 1s of the cast, Sword 0.25 seconds of the cast. The main problem with Mirage Cloak was dodge while stunned which should have never made it to live.

Like thieves can spam stuff like Flanking Strike, Death Blossom, Pistol Whip, and Vault 3-4 times in a row that are potent attacks with built in evade frames. The Ambush attacks themselves operate on a more fair and limited system than that already even with two dodges, and with the Mirage Cloak icon its even more fair in showing exactly when the evade frames are than a lot of other evade skills you just have to learn over time when they're still vulnerable.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said:

> I stg if they force chrono into a support I will just uninstall the game for real.

I personally feel Chronomancer should be an offensive support with more quality of life than it currently has outside of clunky wells and if it's winning 1v1s it's through heavy use of slow, and the third upcoming elite spec is the power damage king. This would give all three elite specs a niche: power, condition, support and defense so they aren't stepping on each other's toes with core being the all-rounder.

All the crit damage boosts they stuffed into Chronomancer never sat right with me