mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Some quick and dirty damage per second numbers post mega balance.
> >
> > Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage
> > Axe: 900
> > Scepter with three clones: 850
> > Staff with three clones: 1,500
> >
> > Berserker's Amulet Power Greatsword
> > Greatsword Autos Max Range: 1,600
> >
> > Compared to something like
> >
> > Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet
> > Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400
> > Axe Autoattack: 2,000
> >
> > Berserker's Amulet Grenades Holosmith:
> > Grenade Auto: 2,200
> > Photon Forge Auto: 1,900
> >
> > Berserker's Amulet Power Herald
> > Sword 2,000
> >
> > Sage Amulet Condi Herald
> > Mace Auto: 1,500
>
> I bet its also like standing still and hitting golem, when you add in the fact that other classes also gain ~15 might, and sometimes even quickness the difference gets even bigger.
Yep. Medium golem standing still auto attacking. If you actually use a few skills and then auto you'll see output like this;
Condition Revenant using Mace 2+3 off cooldown and autoing: 2,200 dps
Power Revenant Phase Traversal into Impossible Odds Auto Attacking: 3,600 dps
Core Ranger Greatsword with Owl, Mauling off cooldown with autos: 3,700 (attack of opportunity on pet attacks is NO joke)
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Some quick and dirty damage per second numbers post mega balance.
Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage
Axe: 900
Scepter with three clones: 850
Staff with three clones: 1,500
Berserker's Amulet Power Greatsword
Greatsword Autos Max Range: 1,600
Compared to something like
Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet
Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400
Axe Autoattack: 2,000
Berserker's Amulet Grenades Holosmith:
Grenade Auto: 2,200
Photon Forge Auto: 1,900
Berserker's Amulet Power Herald
Sword 2,000
Sage Amulet Condi Herald
Mace Auto: 1,500
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> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > worst autoattacks in game, YEP
> > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP
> > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol
> > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP
> > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.
> > shattered clones AI stupid YEP
>
> As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is.
>
> @"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes
I'm not talking about scepter 3. It's scepter autos with 3 clones and scepter ambush with 3 clones.
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> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).
> > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.
> > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).
> > >
> > > @"bravan.3876" :
> > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.
> > > The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.
> >
> > Clones shouldn't apply conditions but that's more to prohibit turret style gameplay than condition mesmer have a damage advantage over power.
> >
> > These are premega balance numbers but with the auto attacks on deadshot and berserker amulets mesmer dps looked like this;
> >
> > > Condition Mirage Axe: 1492
> > > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)
> > > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202
> > > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)
> > > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675
> > > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984
> > > Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498
> > > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170
> >
> > This numbers are outdated, pre-megabalance and all. But the principal is true in that generally speaking mesmer condition weapons are actually rather undertuned, especially axe considering it's a melee weapon and they rely on clones supplementing their damage to get even decent dps numbers. Even with the difference between Deadshot and Wanderer, the only weapon that got close to Greatsword's auto attack was staff and that's when it's within 400 range.
>
> When it comes to clone ambush dmg scepter and staff were/ are the most problematic. And the current nerfed state barely touched them directly. Like instead reworking scepter ambush to only hit 1-2 projectile each ambush and be more about applying an utility effect (like a daze on sword, but no dmg) they just nerfed a core trait into the ground (sharper images if i remember the name right from the bleed trait). Sword clone ambush does zero dmg, gs clones do half decent dmg (more should not be tho, it is balanced dmg with main purpose of stacking might and vuln on targets). And normal clone autoattacks do way to much condi dmg compared to power clones.
Lol no.
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones ambush spam on a moving target: 1439
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465
Scepter 3 is barely an increase over the standard auto attack . The Staff ambush was still good when it connected with all clones but it could also just be circle strafed. Again, the problem with clone conditions is that they allow for turret style gameplay, not that they had good damage ouput. Mesmer damage output on those weapons is balanced around the clones being there assisting.
Again, the memser condition weapons are notoriously among the lowest damaging kits in the game. You seem to have some vendetta about the ambush skills allowing for actual decent damage output from them due to your ridiculous anti-condition vendetta.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).
> Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.
> And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).
>
> @"bravan.3876" :
> Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.
> The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.
Clones shouldn't apply conditions but that's more to prohibit turret style gameplay than condition mesmer have a damage advantage over power.
These are premega balance numbers but with the auto attacks on deadshot and berserker amulets mesmer dps looked like this;
> Condition Mirage Axe: 1492
> Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)
> Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202
> Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)
> Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675
> Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984
> Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498
> Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170
This numbers are outdated, pre-megabalance and all. But the principal is true in that generally speaking mesmer condition weapons are actually rather undertuned, especially axe considering it's a melee weapon and they rely on clones supplementing their damage to get even decent dps numbers. Even with the difference between Deadshot and Wanderer, the only weapon that got close to Greatsword's auto attack was staff and that's when it's within 400 range.
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Pre-Mega Balance Core Necro, Thief, Ranger, Mesmer, Warrior and maybe Guard would all be good. Rev would be just okay and Engineer and Ele would be pretty bad.
Post mega balance it'd be just Rev, Necro, Ranger and Thief. Engie and Guard would be okay. Warrior and Mesmer Ele would be bad.
I do think a core only mini season would be cool to see. I think I'd rather see No Downstate season first tho
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> @"Buran.3796" said:
> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > The greater the built in sustain, the lower the overall damage per second should be.
> >
> > And vice versa.
>
>
> The problem is that stats weren't born equal in GW2. On one hand you have physical damage, which to be maximized requires to invest stat points in power, critical chance and ferocity. On the other hand, you have condition damage, which requieres to spent points in condition damage (expertise will also enhance damage in PvE, but in PvP and WvW doesn't work that well due your foes will actively cleanse the conditions, so having ways to re-aply conditions has more value than having conditions that stay for longer).
>
> This means that you need to spent stat points in 3 stats to maximize physical damage, whereas for condition damage you only need to spent points in one or two stats, and due the max amount of points you can spent in a single stat is hard capped, condition builds can asign sparse stat points to vitality, thoughness, power healing or concentration, maximizing condition damage AND sustain at the same time.
>
> This is why in the current meta of low physical damage condition tanks acts like bruisers, performing great in terms of dps and sustain. And the problem (if you think that this is a problem, which I don't think) is difficult to solve because are simple mathematics. Condition damage is less stat intensive, to compensate how is easier to counter due stacks damage at slower pace (and easier to counter) than direct damage. But the numbers are off, giving the edge to condi stats in the current meta.
Scourge with a support and Mirage saw good use of Deadshot and Wanderer's Amulets (Defensively equivalent to Marauder's and Demolisher's respectively) at various points throughout Path of Fire. While you probably can't adjust conditions with a new third stat, you can probably rework conditions to make better use of Precision so that they feel that same three stat pull that power builds currently do. There's a number of traits that do things like give a33% chance to inflict Bleeding on crit. You can bump up traits like that to 100% chance to bleed/torment/burn and put them into dedicated damage trait lines and then prune some of the damage off skills themselves.
This would deincentivize amulets like Sages and Carrion that don't have precision and would push condition builds into needing to invest in 3 stats to really gain full effectiveness of their condition damage output even if a little bit indirectly, provided the expertise amulets were put back into the game.
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> @"Arkantos.7460" said:
> no nerf mesma , because everytime they say things like come 1vs1 me , they are lying and always play unfair and bring up other guys who help them ...
Those are clones
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No Downstate Conquest
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If you made a poll "should Mesmer, Chronomancer and Mirage get buffed" buffing Mesmer would lose 80-20.
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> @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > The thing you don't understand is that Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win.
> > > > > > > > > You guys need to grow up and stop quoting someone without mentioning the context in which the quote was made because this is at best lying, at worse manipulation.
> > > > > > > > > It's like posting a video of chronomancer then complain about how broken it is, whithout mentioning that the video was filmed in 2016.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lol. Okay. The context was "The MAT Final had Double Rev on both teams. I thought balance was supposed to increase class diversity and representation?" to which CMC replied with that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Correct, and that was what? Over half a year ago?! Back then the condi revenant builds that are problematic now didn't even exist! It was power rev all the way and that got nerfed hard in february - with all the other powercreeped kitten. Power rev indeed requires some skill to play decently (although it's still overperforming).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (edit) I dug it up, here's a link to the thread:
> > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1099919#Comment_1099919
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean sure, it's a nice meme. But complaining incessantly about the developers while citing something that's hardly relevant today and is not at all applicable to the current balance of the revenant profession just to make a dev look bad... that's ridiculous.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "This class is winning and performing very well but that's just because only GOOD players are playing it" is hilariously backwards line of thinking regardless of when it was said. Top players will play whatever is meta, and they did and still are playing Revenant because it is meta not because of any special attachment to the profession per say, and that quote is really only one balance patch ago.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe you should read the post again that you're referring to. I'll copy it here for you:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > > > > > Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.
> > > > >
> > > > > He doesn't say at all what you claim. He says the best players favor power rev. Which was factual at the time. After all it's always the same couple of players that win the mAT - no matter what comp they're playing. So, why did they favor it? Because it's the best build around or just because they liked playing it more? He says in the very next sentence - so you don't misunderstand - that rev is "definitely strong" and is being reevaluated.
> > > > > As we all know today that resulted in nerfs to revenant across the board like the removal of stunbreaks on legend swap, less endurance regeneration, higher energy costs on utility skills, nerfs to might/boon stacking and of course the blanket power coefficient nerfs. All good changes which brought power rev more in line and even made it more skillful. Although it needs some more changes now.
> > > > >
> > > > > The current state of condi rev however is entirely unrelated to Cal's post from half a year ago. That build clearly is favored by monkeys.
> > > > >
> > > > > **Tldr;** If you read just the one sentence right after the one you keep "citing", you're entire argument falls flat.
> > > >
> > > > You've got it backwards, just like he did. The best players didn't FAVOR rev. Rev was picked by the best players because at that point in the game after super charging the Sword Off hand skills and nerfing the most prominent counters to rev it made Revenant hands down the best class in the game for a variety of roles, specifically both Team Fight Damage and +1 Roamer.
> > > >
> > > > Revenant spent a huge chunk of Path of Fire largely considered unviable in high end play. Considered even worse than Water Weaver. At which point it was abandoned by players both high end and low end. It's not that rev appealed to high end players who stuck through it through thick and thin. High end players realized the necessity of it after it's buffs and gravitated towards it. Just like we're seeing now.
> > >
> > > You're correct, although some of the best players still stuck with power rev throughout all of PoF. Because it's fun. Obviously later on the devs came to the conclusion it was in fact overperforming now, and not simply a community favorite anymore. That's why it received many nerfs.
> > >
> > > So, in light of that, I don't understand why you're so obsessed with that quote. Because he didn't say "yes, rev's kitten broken and we'll nerf it"? Instead of "rev was favored by the best players this mAT but that doesn't necessitate a nerf by itself, we'll reevaluate revenant ourselves"? Yes, the quote's funny when taken out of context. But I think it's a little immature to use it for your agenda against the devs.
> >
> > For starters in context with what it is responding to the quote reads "Double firebrand both teams is a problem but double revenant on both teams isn't because rev players are just that good"
>
> No, it just doesn't. And you can't even misunderstand it that way if you read the very next sentence that follows.
Keep licking that boot buddy.
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> @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > The thing you don't understand is that Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win.
> > > > > > > You guys need to grow up and stop quoting someone without mentioning the context in which the quote was made because this is at best lying, at worse manipulation.
> > > > > > > It's like posting a video of chronomancer then complain about how broken it is, whithout mentioning that the video was filmed in 2016.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lol. Okay. The context was "The MAT Final had Double Rev on both teams. I thought balance was supposed to increase class diversity and representation?" to which CMC replied with that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct, and that was what? Over half a year ago?! Back then the condi revenant builds that are problematic now didn't even exist! It was power rev all the way and that got nerfed hard in february - with all the other powercreeped kitten. Power rev indeed requires some skill to play decently (although it's still overperforming).
> > > > >
> > > > > (edit) I dug it up, here's a link to the thread:
> > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1099919#Comment_1099919
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean sure, it's a nice meme. But complaining incessantly about the developers while citing something that's hardly relevant today and is not at all applicable to the current balance of the revenant profession just to make a dev look bad... that's ridiculous.
> > > >
> > > > "This class is winning and performing very well but that's just because only GOOD players are playing it" is hilariously backwards line of thinking regardless of when it was said. Top players will play whatever is meta, and they did and still are playing Revenant because it is meta not because of any special attachment to the profession per say, and that quote is really only one balance patch ago.
> > >
> > > Maybe you should read the post again that you're referring to. I'll copy it here for you:
> > >
> > > > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > > > Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.
> > > >
> > > > Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.
> > >
> > > He doesn't say at all what you claim. He says the best players favor power rev. Which was factual at the time. After all it's always the same couple of players that win the mAT - no matter what comp they're playing. So, why did they favor it? Because it's the best build around or just because they liked playing it more? He says in the very next sentence - so you don't misunderstand - that rev is "definitely strong" and is being reevaluated.
> > > As we all know today that resulted in nerfs to revenant across the board like the removal of stunbreaks on legend swap, less endurance regeneration, higher energy costs on utility skills, nerfs to might/boon stacking and of course the blanket power coefficient nerfs. All good changes which brought power rev more in line and even made it more skillful. Although it needs some more changes now.
> > >
> > > The current state of condi rev however is entirely unrelated to Cal's post from half a year ago. That build clearly is favored by monkeys.
> > >
> > > **Tldr;** If you read just the one sentence right after the one you keep "citing", you're entire argument falls flat.
> >
> > You've got it backwards, just like he did. The best players didn't FAVOR rev. Rev was picked by the best players because at that point in the game after super charging the Sword Off hand skills and nerfing the most prominent counters to rev it made Revenant hands down the best class in the game for a variety of roles, specifically both Team Fight Damage and +1 Roamer.
> >
> > Revenant spent a huge chunk of Path of Fire largely considered unviable in high end play. Considered even worse than Water Weaver. At which point it was abandoned by players both high end and low end. It's not that rev appealed to high end players who stuck through it through thick and thin. High end players realized the necessity of it after it's buffs and gravitated towards it. Just like we're seeing now.
>
> You're correct, although some of the best players still stuck with power rev throughout all of PoF. Because it's fun. Obviously later on the devs came to the conclusion it was in fact overperforming now, and not simply a community favorite anymore. That's why it received many nerfs.
>
> So, in light of that, I don't understand why you're so obsessed with that quote. Because he didn't say "yes, rev's kitten broken and we'll nerf it"? Instead of "rev was favored by the best players this mAT but that doesn't necessitate a nerf by itself, we'll reevaluate revenant ourselves"? Yes, the quote's funny when taken out of context. But I think it's a little immature to use it for your agenda against the devs.
For starters in context with what it is responding to the quote reads "Double firebrand both teams is a problem but double revenant on both teams isn't because rev players are just that good"
Perhaps said dev should have applied the same logic to Firebrand that they promised adjustments in that same post?
And no, players who preferred rev, which are a real section of player were not stacking double herald to win MATs. It was only when rev was truly busted in context of the meta shifting around it that we started seeing rev stacking.
And yes the quote is hilarious.
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> @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > The thing you don't understand is that Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win.
> > > > > You guys need to grow up and stop quoting someone without mentioning the context in which the quote was made because this is at best lying, at worse manipulation.
> > > > > It's like posting a video of chronomancer then complain about how broken it is, whithout mentioning that the video was filmed in 2016.
> > > >
> > > > Lol. Okay. The context was "The MAT Final had Double Rev on both teams. I thought balance was supposed to increase class diversity and representation?" to which CMC replied with that.
> > >
> > > Correct, and that was what? Over half a year ago?! Back then the condi revenant builds that are problematic now didn't even exist! It was power rev all the way and that got nerfed hard in february - with all the other powercreeped kitten. Power rev indeed requires some skill to play decently (although it's still overperforming).
> > >
> > > (edit) I dug it up, here's a link to the thread:
> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1099919#Comment_1099919
> > >
> > > I mean sure, it's a nice meme. But complaining incessantly about the developers while citing something that's hardly relevant today and is not at all applicable to the current balance of the revenant profession just to make a dev look bad... that's ridiculous.
> >
> > "This class is winning and performing very well but that's just because only GOOD players are playing it" is hilariously backwards line of thinking regardless of when it was said. Top players will play whatever is meta, and they did and still are playing Revenant because it is meta not because of any special attachment to the profession per say, and that quote is really only one balance patch ago.
>
> Maybe you should read the post again that you're referring to. I'll copy it here for you:
>
> > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win the monthly. With that said it's definitely strong, and it's on our watch list following the next balance update along with symbol firebrand and weaver. Essentially we're going to keep a close eye on the meta builds that aren't seeing any changes, but we want to see how the new meta shakes out first. Like I've said previously, we have the opportunity to make additional changes outside of the usual balance cadence if something terrible happens.
> >
> > Support firebrand is more of a big picture issue. It's definitely the dominant support build, which pushes out some other builds that just don't bring as much to the table. This is something we're looking at for the larger update, but isn't really solvable with a few quick changes in the short-term. There are some shaves we can do if support fb is overperforming relative to the power of the meta, but it's likely to continue being the best support build for the time being.
>
> He doesn't say at all what you claim. He says the best players favor power rev. Which was factual at the time. After all it's always the same couple of players that win the mAT - no matter what comp they're playing. So, why did they favor it? Because it's the best build around or just because they liked playing it more? He says in the very next sentence - so you don't misunderstand - that rev is "definitely strong" and is being reevaluated.
> As we all know today that resulted in nerfs to revenant across the board like the removal of stunbreaks on legend swap, less endurance regeneration, higher energy costs on utility skills, nerfs to might/boon stacking and of course the blanket power coefficient nerfs. All good changes which brought power rev more in line and even made it more skillful. Although it needs some more changes now.
>
> The current state of condi rev however is entirely unrelated to Cal's post from half a year ago. That build clearly is favored by monkeys.
>
> **Tldr;** If you read just the one sentence right after the one you keep "citing", you're entire argument falls flat.
You've got it backwards, just like he did. The best players didn't FAVOR rev. Rev was picked by the best players because at that point in the game after super charging the Sword Off hand skills and nerfing the most prominent counters to rev it made Revenant hands down the best class in the game for a variety of roles, specifically both Team Fight Damage and +1 Roamer.
Revenant spent a huge chunk of Path of Fire largely considered unviable in high end play. Considered even worse than Water Weaver. At which point it was abandoned by players both high end and low end. It's not that rev appealed to high end players who stuck through it through thick and thin. High end players realized the necessity of it after it's buffs and gravitated towards it. Just like we're seeing now.
That you've bunkered down defending said delusional quote only goes to show how delusional you are in turn.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).
> > > > > > But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.
> > > > > Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...
> > > > >
> > > > > Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.
> > > >
> > > > Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now
> > >
> > > I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.
> > > They have unblocable skills which mean that even if you know they will do something chance are high you can't counter it with your usual tempo. They are basically immune to cripple, can build to be very resistant to hard CC. I will not make 300 lines about war because I have basics knowledge on it but even by not poping 4k+ minimum each attacks they have strong particularity.
> > > They have to turn it more into teamfight than into duellist with atomic buttons full of passive effects IMO.
> > > It's all to anet to find what gameplay they want to give to them.
> > >
> > > And what about chrono who has highly telegraphed skills but has no sustain or damage.... (Mean getting hit by grav well is the same obviousness to get hit by bullcharge and it didn't give evade to the mes. I didn't even talk about trahs other wells).
> >
> > wait, what about berserker who has higher telegraphed skills and has worse sustain and worse damage? yes nerf spellbreaker because it was better then chrono, also nerf chrono because it's obviously better then berserker LOL, can we also nerf all mesmer spec because throw bola is so bad? tanks.
>
> Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.
> Welcome.
> We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.
>
> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).
> > > > > > But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.
> > > > > Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...
> > > > >
> > > > > Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.
> > > >
> > > > Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now
> > >
> > > I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.
>
> > The quickness is the telegraph. If they use Quickness, thats when that combo is coming and you should probably dodge.
> They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.
> > > They have unblocable skills which mean that even if you know they will do something chance are high you can't counter it with your usual tempo. They are basically immune to cripple, can build to be very resistant to hard CC. I will not make 300 lines about war because I have basics knowledge on it but even by not poping 4k+ minimum each attacks they have strong particularity.
> >
> > Most classes rely on evades more than blocks. For that matter, their unblockable skills were not very high damage. So thats an odd thing to complain about.
> You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.
> And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.
> > > They have to turn it more into teamfight than into duellist with atomic buttons full of passive effects IMO.
> > > It's all to anet to find what gameplay they want to give to them.
> > >
> >
> > The gameplay they had was perfectly fine. Warrior is and was always the most fair class to fight (well, out of the ones actually played). So I have to say, finding people who dislike it is just amusing to me. Though, word of advice: If Arheundel agrees you with, youre most likely wrong.
> No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.
> > > And what about chrono who has highly telegraphed skills but has no sustain or damage.... (Mean getting hit by grav well is the same obviousness to get hit by bullcharge and it didn't give evade to the mes. I didn't even talk about trahs other wells).
> >
> > 2 wrongs does not make a right. If Chrono was underperforming, then buff up chrono. Dont nerf everything else.
> Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.
>
>
>
> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"mortrialus.3062" :
> > > No, it's not a cele ele meta, neither a chrono bunker like meta, people can be killed if they rollface contrary to what few players seems to brainspam in this forum trying to make it a truth like it ever been.
> >
> > Yes, thats why we saw 2 people dancing in the MOTA because they both knew they couldnt kill each other. Its worse than the Cele Ele meta, Cele Ele actually did damage. As did Cele Engineer.
> How many time did this happen.
> It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.
> > > With more combat duration you have the time to do complete rotations or combo on some build who never existed before because it was just "spam burst combo".
> > >
> >
> > Yeah except fights were long enough for almost all skills to come up again pre-patch. We already did full rotations and combos. Now however, well fights are so long and so slow that combos or rotations dont matter. You just use everything off cooldown and hope that you can kill them. Its less skillful. Its more spammy.
> No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.
> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" :
> > > Ho after reading your last answers you obviously being carried by plethore 3 in 1 buttons pre patch, I understand why you get so mad (But hey, just dodge hu :) .).
> >
> > Yes, because Warrior, the notoriously balanced and fair class, "carried" people. What a load of nonsense.
> Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.
> But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.
> > > Stranghely warriors are the more impacted by the patch because they had the best 3 in 1 buttons in their toolbar, that's all. It's certainly hard to do as much actions as other to have results when you aren't used to.
> >
> > If youre referring to bull rush, thats not the reason warrior sucks right now. Its still a good skill. Same with Rampage. Its everything else that sucks.
> Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.
>
>
>
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).
> > > > > > But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.
> > > > > Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...
> > > > >
> > > > > Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.
> > > >
> > > > Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now
> > >
> > > I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.
> >
> > Quickness didn't increase the speed of Bull's Charge so you still have that. Again if there's issues with tells we could still have address Warrior on an individual level by trimming quickness uptime, I actually agreed with sigil of agility being removed, or upping the time on certain skills like Arcing Slice. Without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> >
> > It's really funny seeing so many players suddenly have a vendetta against spellbreaker because literally EVERY time a "What is the most fun/fair class to fight" it won every time with like 30-45% of the vote.
> Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.
> To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.
> And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level...
Wasn't "my " most fun class to fight. Just that it WON the most fair/fun class to fight every single time through Path of Fire, which it always did. That isn't me. That's the community. The reason I brought up warrior and broke down why certain skills have such high value is because @"Arheundel.6451" kept bringing up Warrior as being unfair. And again individual class issues remaining could easily have been adjusted like removing unblockable run Reckless dodge. Spellbreaker's bread and butter was still always Arcing Slice.
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"mortrialus.3062" :
> > > No, it's not a cele ele meta, neither a chrono bunker like meta, people can be killed if they rollface contrary to what few players seems to brainspam in this forum trying to make it a truth like it ever been.
> > > With more combat duration you have the time to do complete rotations or combo on some build who never existed before because it was just "spam burst combo".
> >
> > Literally go back and youtube Cele Ele 2015 and watch some of the 1v1 duel videos of people still lingering around with people literally fighting for 5-7 minutes. They aren't hard to find. This is a cele ele meta. Builds don't have massive strengths or weaknesses. Everyone is a slushy hybrid that does a little bit of everything and has way too much sustain.
> >
> > Spamming your Burst Combo would only get you so far because competent players can both predict and react to incoming combos, avoid your attack, and then counter attack with their own combo.
> The passive pressure around this coming from 3 in 1 tools took a more important part than predict and react.
Nah. For starters I had issues with Holosmith, but even then if I saw them stealth I could expect them to try and heal and then reengage with photonic shockwave. So I could know well enough to kite away from where they stealthed at and then and avoid the shock wave and if they still managed to land it I could do things like Blink or Signet of Midnight within a fraction of a second because I was expecting exactly that.
Let's look at another "3 in 1" tool. The Prestige when used in close range would blind the target and stealth the mesmer. After three seconds the mesmer would unstealth and an explosion would occur around them for burning damage in a melee radius around the mesmer. So it can be used from ranged to engage, or to escape combat, or to deal damage in melee range, but it couldn't be used for all three at once. That's flexibility for sure, but you're always PICKING between two potential options; escape with it or attack with it. As far as I'm concerned. That was fine. Except now the mesmer even on a condition build can't do even 80% of the targets health with one of their primary damage dealing attacks even when fully speced for condition damage.
A traited 24 second primary DPS cooldown did 14% of the medium golem's health while carrion stated which means it would take at least literally _168 seconds_ to kill someone with this skill and it's a PRIMARY damage dealing ability for condition mesmers. And that's IF they don't cleanse and if they don't heal. Almost every build in the game can face tank that skill 4 times back to back, use their healing skill and be back to 80-100% health depending on the class and healing skill.
This whole idea of "well CC skills need to do basically no damage." Like I literally have no idea where that came from on a philosophical level. There wasn't some huge demand on the forum to eliminate damage dealing CC skills. The most complained about ones were like Photonic Shockwave from stealths or Overcharged Shot when the Engineer had stab and was in melee range making it basically an instant cast blow out. In real fighting games if you whiff and open yourself to getting punished you can expect to be hitstunned for several seconds. Because it was _your_ fault. Because you opened _yourself_ up to being countered.
I don't recall literally anyone asking for this and it's lead to some for real nonsense like Warrior Hammer having three out of it's six skills do literally no damage including the kit's primary damage dealing skills, Earth Shaker and Backbreaker.
Like let's look at a skill I _did_ want to see nerfed; Prime Light Beam. Prime Light Beam hit hard, and it was a massive blowout which is the strongest CC type in the game. But it had a reasonable cooldown of 60 seconds and it had a very forgiving wind up animation. My problem with Prime Light Beam wasn't that it did damage, but because of it's projectileless nature if cast from stealth there would be no opportunity to dodge it if the holosmith was stealthed. My solution? Have prime light beam apply reveal to the holosmith when the begin casting it so that there's no opportunity to tag an opponent from stealth without them being able to see and react to the animation as a whole. Which actually would have given Prime Light Beam more counterplay why keeping it a powerful skill when used right. Which is a significantly better change than putting all CC skills at 0 damage, a change literally no one asked for before the Megabalance.
Seriously. Bring me up the thread of players across all tiers of gameplay puzzled why certain skills both did CC and Damage and their personal outrage over the injustice.
The entire Megabalance has been nonsense. Pure absolute nonsense.
> >
> > Which is what good competitive games ACTUALLY look like. There's high damage. Things are high impact and dangerous. And it's about the mind games that allow you to play your opponent and avoid their attempts to attack you while you land your skills. Of you're you'd probably look at other games like Street Fighter, or LoL and wet the bed about how skill can do 30% of a person's health in one attack.
> Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.
Or, you know, the other better ones I listed and on page 3 wrote down a breakdown of how at the more deadlier Era before the Megabalance Patch more closely resembled other good NonFPS competative games in a good way? And even then, would anyone even play CS if even after 20 headshots your opponent was still running around with 80% health? That's GW2 right now.
But keep defending the way things are when Dive Kick's 2019 championship, a literal joke game with one button, has higher championship viewership than GW2's "Masters of the Arena." and by a huge margin. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. Dive Kick is at this point, unambiguously, a better PvP game than GW2 and it's sludge meta. It's literally a fucking joke game and STILL manages to have better fundamentals than GW2 post megabalance..
But if you're such an adamant "Oh go play some other game then". I have been! And it's been tons of fun. I've been playing a bunch of Monster Hunter for my superior PvE fix, and then Blazblue and Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator in anticipation for the upcoming Guilty Gear game for my PvP fix. I gave the megabalance patch a try with 2v2s and the couple of weeks of proper conquest the season after and basically haven't looked back. This shit is an embarrassment. If i was a part of the PvP team and it came out looking like this I would ask Arenanet to leave me uncredited because I wouldn't want to be associated with having any hand in this going forward with my Game Dev career.
I just still can't help but be nostalgic for better times in GW2 and look at what is is now and think "Wow shit is fucked" and comment on it.
-
> @"Buran.3796" said:
> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
>
> > Condi herald is too strong at all skill levels
>
> Then why Rank 55 is consistently crushing teams which stack 2-3 condi Revs while the only one they have is a power herald? Listen: condi Revs are powerfull at midfights, but they move slower around the map so teams which stack them oftenly struggle to prevent home decaps; they can also be easily focused due the lack of disengagement tools. Understand also that condi Rev nerfs automatically will buff power Revs (which are already stronger, albeit harder to play).
Because it's Rank 55 and they would crush those teams just as hard with mirror comps.
-
> @"mixxed.5862" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > The thing you don't understand is that Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win.
> > > You guys need to grow up and stop quoting someone without mentioning the context in which the quote was made because this is at best lying, at worse manipulation.
> > > It's like posting a video of chronomancer then complain about how broken it is, whithout mentioning that the video was filmed in 2016.
> >
> > Lol. Okay. The context was "The MAT Final had Double Rev on both teams. I thought balance was supposed to increase class diversity and representation?" to which CMC replied with that.
>
> Correct, and that was what? Over half a year ago?! Back then the condi revenant builds that are problematic now didn't even exist! It was power rev all the way and that got nerfed hard in february - with all the other powercreeped kitten. Power rev indeed requires some skill to play decently (although it's still overperforming).
>
> (edit) I dug it up, here's a link to the thread:
> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1099919#Comment_1099919
>
> I mean sure, it's a nice meme. But complaining incessantly about the developers while citing something that's hardly relevant today and is not at all applicable to the current balance of the revenant profession just to make a dev look bad... that's ridiculous.
"This class is winning and performing very well but that's just because only GOOD players are playing it" is hilariously backwards line of thinking regardless of when it was said. Top players will play whatever is meta, and they did and still are playing Revenant because it is meta not because of any special attachment to the profession per say, and that quote is really only one balance patch ago.
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).
> > > > But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....
> > >
> > > Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.
> > > Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.
> > >
> > > Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.
> > >
> > > If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.
> > >
> > > About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...
> > >
> > > Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.
> > >
> > > Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)
> > >
> > > Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.
> >
> > Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now
>
> I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.
Quickness didn't increase the speed of Bull's Charge so you still have that. Again if there's issues with tells we could still have address Warrior on an individual level by trimming quickness uptime, I actually agreed with sigil of agility being removed, or upping the time on certain skills like Arcing Slice. Without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It's really funny seeing so many players suddenly have a vendetta against spellbreaker because literally EVERY time a "What is the most fun/fair class to fight" it won every time with like 30-45% of the vote.
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> @"mortrialus.3062" :
> No, it's not a cele ele meta, neither a chrono bunker like meta, people can be killed if they rollface contrary to what few players seems to brainspam in this forum trying to make it a truth like it ever been.
> With more combat duration you have the time to do complete rotations or combo on some build who never existed before because it was just "spam burst combo".
Literally go back and youtube Cele Ele 2015 and watch some of the 1v1 duel videos of people still lingering around with people literally fighting for 5-7 minutes. They aren't hard to find. This is a cele ele meta. Builds don't have massive strengths or weaknesses. Everyone is a slushy hybrid that does a little bit of everything and has way too much sustain.
Spamming your Burst Combo would only get you so far because competent players can both predict and react to incoming combos, avoid your attack, and then counter attack with their own combo.
Sure a Warrior can open up with a Bull's Charge, but the enemy will probably dodge it. And even if you land it they might stunbreak out and avoid your attempt to deal damage to them meaning you've wasted a 30 second cooldown with little reward and now the enemy can counter attack you more aggressively.
Which is what good competitive games ACTUALLY look like. There's high damage. Things are high impact and dangerous. And it's about the mind games that allow you to play your opponent and avoid their attempts to attack you while you land your skills. Of you're you'd probably look at other games like Street Fighter, or LoL and wet the bed about how skill can do 30% of a person's health in one attack.
**_Dive Kick_** is more nuanced and sound in its competitive design than Guild Wars 2 is now. This shit is an embarrassment.
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > ...by comparison we had builds like **Mantra of Distraction** with immobilize before nerfs....
> > > > > Are you talking about the things who get disabled mid season last year ?
> > > > > As far as I know mesmer is the only class who has a trait removed mid season during months while not even having the ladder representation of current rev or pre patch thieves.
> > > > > Mean the amount of hate from dev and players on the supposed golden child is hudge and I have doubt it's based on efficiency data...
> > > > >
> > > > > >Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.
> > > > > Not really, people hating mesmer since launch because of illusions.
> > > > >
> > > > > On another note I'm totally fine with the rework patch who gut 3 in 1 buttons for everyone.
> > > > > And It will be good if people stop arguing about skill when before patch there was clic to win buttons...
> > > > > Pre-patch game was clearly less skillier and way more carrying IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Not even close, u got punished way harder. People whined pre patch about damage cuz they got punished by better players on squishy burst classes when they fd up and couldn't handle it so cried like babies. Now u just build high sustain and condi and spam and servive way more than u should. Games gbage right now
> > >
> > > Ok first I I didn't agree about the tank meta in the sense that I already kill people, even rev or ele on power mes. (Which is why i get plat 3 last season.)
> > > There were way more tankier meta.
> > > Secondly pre patch wasn't about get punished but about the first who push his 3 in 1 buttons, the counter strike headshot hype which IMO :
> > > - Limit build diversity.
> > > - Limit counterplay.
> > >
> > > mean you would always had class with better carrying skills. And this gap was greatly reduced thanks to the push 1 button to do 1 things concept.
> > > Now we shouldn't wait 6 months for fixes.
> >
> > The only builds that could "really" unpredictably "one shot" people with a burst were DP Thief, Power Mesmer, and Deadeye. All of which could be addressed on an individual level without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> >
> > Keep waiting for balance. Even if they balance this mess it will never be good. You can't call this"build diversity" when everyone is for all intents and purposes a 2015 cele ele.
>
> I should precise while playing power mirage.
> And we aren't in a cele ele like meta.
This is a Cele Ele meta. Sluggish, unimpactful damage. Combatants being literally unable to kill each other for 15+ minutes at a time, unable to outdps their enemy's healing potential no matter how many attacks land back, to back, to back, to back, to back with pure face tank and no regard for avoiding important attacks. Everyone is a jack of all trades hybrid that does a little bit of everything and takes ages to kill if it's even mathematically possible.
To be honest, you're right in that this isn't EXACTLY like cele ele. Cele Ele hit and crit harder than builds do now.
> Dont try to extrapolate the few things that have to be addressed.
There's nothing to address. Bringing down the most powerful builds right now doesn't address how awful the game feels to play post megabalance. Even if the game gets perfect balanced it will continue to be a boring AF slow sluggish affair under this paradigm.
I really don't know how you can defend the game in this era.
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > ...by comparison we had builds like **Mantra of Distraction** with immobilize before nerfs....
> > > Are you talking about the things who get disabled mid season last year ?
> > > As far as I know mesmer is the only class who has a trait removed mid season during months while not even having the ladder representation of current rev or pre patch thieves.
> > > Mean the amount of hate from dev and players on the supposed golden child is hudge and I have doubt it's based on efficiency data...
> > >
> > > >Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.
> > > Not really, people hating mesmer since launch because of illusions.
> > >
> > > On another note I'm totally fine with the rework patch who gut 3 in 1 buttons for everyone.
> > > And It will be good if people stop arguing about skill when before patch there was clic to win buttons...
> > > Pre-patch game was clearly less skillier and way more carrying IMO.
> >
> > Not even close, u got punished way harder. People whined pre patch about damage cuz they got punished by better players on squishy burst classes when they fd up and couldn't handle it so cried like babies. Now u just build high sustain and condi and spam and servive way more than u should. Games gbage right now
>
> Ok first I I didn't agree about the tank meta in the sense that I already kill people, even rev or ele on power mes. (Which is why i get plat 3 last season.)
> There were way more tankier meta.
> Secondly pre patch wasn't about get punished but about the first who push his 3 in 1 buttons, the counter strike headshot hype which IMO :
> - Limit build diversity.
> - Limit counterplay.
>
> mean you would always had class with better carrying skills. And this gap was greatly reduced thanks to the push 1 button to do 1 things concept.
> Now we shouldn't wait 6 months for fixes.
The only builds that could "really" unpredictably "one shot" people with a burst were DP Thief, Power Mesmer, and Deadeye. All of which could be addressed on an individual level without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Keep waiting for balance. Even if they balance this mess it will never be good. You can't call this"build diversity" when everyone is for all intents and purposes a 2015 cele ele.
-
> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > The thing you don't understand is that Rev is a class that's favored more by the best players, and the best players tend to win.
> You guys need to grow up and stop quoting someone without mentioning the context in which the quote was made because this is at best lying, at worse manipulation.
> It's like posting a video of chronomancer then complain about how broken it is, whithout mentioning that the video was filmed in 2016.
Lol. Okay. The context was "The MAT Final had Double Rev on both teams. I thought balance was supposed to increase class diversity and representation?" to which CMC replied with that.
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > ...by comparison we had builds like **Mantra of Distraction** with immobilize before nerfs....
> Are you talking about the things who get disabled mid season last year ?
> As far as I know mesmer is the only class who has a trait removed mid season during months while not even having the ladder representation of current rev or pre patch thieves.
> Mean the amount of hate from dev and players on the supposed golden child is hudge and I have doubt it's based on efficiency data...
>
> >Majority of people started hating on mesmer with the introduction of Condi mirage, which not surprisingly is what the vast majority of current mesmer can play effectively.
> Not really, people hating mesmer since launch because of illusions.
>
> On another note I'm totally fine with the rework patch who gut 3 in 1 buttons for everyone.
> And It will be good if people stop arguing about skill when before patch there was clic to win buttons...
> Pre-patch game was clearly less skillier and way more carrying IMO.
You can be wrong. I'm okay with that.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And what is good design?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"
> > > > > > > > 2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"
> > > > > > > > 3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe we would get somewhere.......
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Funny that you bring up fighting games. [You want to see a good break down on what a good competitive fight should look like? ](
)> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.
> > > > >
> > > > > You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.
> > > >
> > > > You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance. **Stop trying to act smart and answer my question**
> > > >
> > > > I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!
> > >
> > > My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.
> > >
> > > But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?
> > >
> > > 1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
> > > 2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
> > > 3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
> > > 4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
> > > 5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
> > > 6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.
> > >
> > > Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.
> > >
> > > The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.
> >
>
>
> > Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , **I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen** , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.
> >
>
> Same reason why being counterhit by Susanoo in BBCF makes you lost almost all of your health.
[WHEN YOU DIE WHERE'S YOUR GOD](
) -
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And what is good design?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"
> > > > > > > > > 2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"
> > > > > > > > > 3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Maybe we would get somewhere.......
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Funny that you bring up fighting games. [You want to see a good break down on what a good competitive fight should look like? ](
)> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.
> > > > >
> > > > > You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance. **Stop trying to act smart and answer my question**
> > > > >
> > > > > I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!
> > > >
> > > > My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.
> > > >
> > > > But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?
> > > >
> > > > 1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
> > > > 2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
> > > > 3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
> > > > 4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
> > > > 5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
> > > > 6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.
> > > >
> > > > Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.
> > > >
> > > > The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.
> >
> > I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.
> >
> > >
> > > Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , **I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen** , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.
> >
> > And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.
> >
> > > There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO
> >
> > Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.
>
> Again you're using builds to justify your argument ,
I used a hypothetical, like the way Core-A-Gaming walked through a potential Zangief vs Ryu match up and the interplay of mindgames and predicting what your opponent is going to do and maneuvering around each other, and wasn't commenting on the specific power or how balanced the two fighters are in relation to each other and the game as a whole.
> I should not be forced to play bunker in order to play the game....why don't add a stats check to pvp at this point? It won't allow people to use certain classes in pvp unless they reach a certain level of healing power/toughness/vitality...else they become a detriment for the team.
It's funny you have such a weird vendetta against Warrior and Spellbreaker considering multiple threads and multiple polls across PoF's entire life warrior and spellbreaker consistently won as the most fun and fair class to fight.
"You die as fast as you kill" but Spellbreaker DID die easy when caught off guard, especially once they moved away from Defense Spec onto Strength. It DID die easy when you baited defensive cooldowns. They had high melee damage, excellent active defenses, but bad self healing that's a serious double edged sword with how it's 100% gradual. A warrior running Healing Signet, even with Might Makes Right and Magebane Tether, had very little capacity to make a comeback from a fight going poorly. They couldn't just snap from 20% to 100% health the way Engineers could and still can.
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> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > Warrior has to work for it's damage and is incredibly satisfying to combo and kill people with.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Warhorn tempest has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Meditrapper guardian has to work for it's damage and is fun to get kills on.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The issue is they forgot that ranger and holosmith have 40604707004047047074070470470 free HPS and ranger/thief/holo have 460470 blocks/evades/invuls/dodges that have no limit.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They need to put a limit on the amount of attacks a dodge/block/invul can negate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your desire to have GW2 be a game of "If you chain attacks 1a, 2a, 7h, 12c, 92q, 5u in this exact order in under 3.5 seconds you might get a lucky crit and do 15% of your opponent's health and if any part of that hoes wrong they'll remain at 100% health for 20 seconds until your cooldowns are up and you can try again" the way you want it is terrible design. This is not what a good competitive game looks like.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And what is good design?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) "I have failed my burst..let me sit in stealth and let me try again and again"
> > > > > > > 2) "I can keep attacking while the game sustain itself for me, I don't even need to dodge"
> > > > > > > 3) "My l33t burst failed...it's ok I have infinite evade/block or can use my 2nd health bar and tank everything"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I tell you what is good design : Huge burst on others= easy death for you and none of the builds seen before the patch were indication of it, that's what upset me there shouldn't be any High reward= low risk kitten in this game! But there is still and it was getting abused to no end before the huge patch , we had specs doing way too much dmg for the sustain they had.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If Anet would stop with their mantra : "instant gratification builds"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe we would get somewhere.......
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Funny that you bring up fighting games. [You want to see a good break down on what a good competitive fight should look like? ](
)> > > > > >
> > > > > > And this video also showcases the kinds of mind games and combat flow that GW2's pre-megabalance patch was significantly closer to. Of course you'd probably scream "OMG that one attack did 25% health that's OP!" and "OMG The OTHER player did 33% of the other player's health in ONE SECOND?! NERF!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This breakdown of a few ways a fight can play out explains a lot of what makes competitive games fun and why GW2's PvP was significantly more fun before the megabalance patch. Attacks mean something. Any attack landing has immediate ramifications on the rest of the fight. Any attack missing can have immediate ramifications on the flow of combat, especially if you whiff and you get punished. And regardless of who landed their attack the fight is progressing towards an actual victor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's the thing. GW2's actual mechanics are pretty simple. Every weapon kit has an autoattack of varying damage and utility based on a variety of factors such as range and the mechanical purpose of the kit. The rest of their kit tend to have a 1-2 very serious damage dealing skills, and then a mix of defensive, mobility, ranged and crowd control skills. Everything typically does a bit of damage but it's your main damage skills that are, well, your main source of damage. And all of them are just one keybind away. GW2 doesn't make you do Forward Quarter Circle, or Forward, Down, Down-Forward, or Quarter Circle Half Circle Back to use skills, let alone perform One Frame Links.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure, you could Arcing Slice someone for 6k-10k damage. But it was never as simple just "oh I press button and haha big damage go brrrrrr." It was a dance between "Okay I can Arcing Slice this guardian but they have Shield of Wrath up which will negate my attack and if I'm close to him and don't manage to break his shield it'll suffer huge damage, so I'm going to stay out of his range until it explodes and then try and bait their last dodge with a Blade Trail into Whirlwind Blade, I do need to be careful though because if they use Zealot's Blade while I try to Blade Trail it'll just destroy my attack, and if I can get him to spend his last dodge I can land Arcing Slice."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GW2's combat more closely resembled the way fights played out in a fighting game. High stakes, fast paced, and a mind game of positioning and working to land your high value skills while trying to use positioning, your dodges, and your defensive cooldowns to avoid their high damage skills because if it lands it will end the fight while they do the same. It was about knowing your enemy's potential and knowing what is punishable, knowing when they whiff a skill or poorly waste a defensive skill you've seriously shifted the outcome of the fight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GW2's combat now is like if they tried to import the worst aspects of competitive RTS games into GW2; Fights can take half an hour before they can end. There isn't any real decisive blow or impressive kill shot, but about performing thousands of low value actions over those 30 minutes. Skills are no longer akin to actually attacking someone, but more akin to making a worker at your base and carry the same level of excitement. Even MOBAs have significantly faster and more exciting combat than the current state of GW2's combat. Sure a MOBA match can last for a half hour but there's tons of individual fights and fights between champions can end in under five seconds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even if the next balance patch perfectly balanced the game where every class and spec can perform equally well competitively, the environment post megabalance will never be good. It will never be anything more than a boring, slushy, slow, slog of a game.
> > > > >
> > > > > So it's fine if say a warrior deal 10k dmg on say an ele ok......so because ele by design is more squishy it should deal 2x that dmg and on the same CD of 6-8s and from range being a caster class after all am I right?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Because the Elementalist could see the Arcing Slice wind up, avoid it, and then counter with a Fire Sword 2+Glyph of Elemental Power+Primordial Stance combo now that the warrior's main damage dealing attack is spent and they're safe to go on the offense and could potentially win the fight right there depending on the Warrior's remaining defensive options.
> > > >
> > > > You've basically dodged the entire point of my post to get into weeds about specific builds. There's always too strong builds that should be nerfed. There's always too weak builds that should see buffs. But regardless of balance the principal of combat and the flow of gameplay were significantly more sound than they are now. Even if next balance patch perfectly balanced everything, combat is such a slow, boring, slushy slog that it will still not be good. We are all 2015 Cele Eles now.
> > >
> > > You accuse me of dodging question and going into specific builds while you use specific builds to "justify" your idea of balance. **Stop trying to act smart and answer my question**
> > >
> > > I want to know the reasoning why a warrior should deal that much damage.....just say it, don't use builds to justify your ideas!
> >
> > My example was a realistic breakdown of the push and poll of a fight between two popular builds before the megabalance.
> >
> > But if you want a general breakdown on why that skill hit as hard as it used to?
> >
> > 1. Unless we're talking about dedicated support fighting a dedicated support all builds should be able to kill each other across every tier of play.
> > 2. Arcing Slice is a burst skill, requiring the build up and spending of adrenaline, which means the value of the skill should be among the highest in the Warrior's repertoire alongside other burst skills.
> > 3. Arcing Slice is a melee skill, and the increased risk of going into melee range and opening yourself up to damage as well as the increased requirement of getting in range vs a range opponent justifies the skill being higher value.
> > 4. Arcing Slice has an execute mechanic, and only does the more higher end values of it's damage potential when the target is below 50% health meaning you if you can avoid being below 50% health when they're trying to use the attack the attack will do significantly less damage than it's higher end potential.
> > 5. Arcing Slice has a very clear and visible wind up animation giving clear indication that that skill is arcing slice and has an animation that barring extreme lag most people can react to and avoid.
> > 6. Arcing Slice could only get that level of damage with Peak Performance as well as a large amount of Might, requiring set up.
> >
> > Again, you've derailed the argument and dragged things out into the weeds.
> >
> > The game shouldn't be "You need to outskill your opponent by 32.78599181% or you two will be in perpetual stalemate" which is where it's been since the MegaBalance. It should be "The more skilled player wins the fight."
> >
> >
>
> It's pointless keep using the word "derail" .....you're just randomly using the word.
I'm using derail because you're derailing from my overall point that the game is more sound competitively with high impact skills, that are avoidable, with clear tells, that fights should always inevitably end with a victor, and that the PvP game mode is at it's most exciting when every offensive and defensive skill on both sides of the fight and how they are used have serious ramifications for the fight going forward. And you're derailing it for some petty class vendetta against Warrior.
>
> Your logic is flawed, you have not explained why a class should be allowed to deal so much dmg worth over 90% of another class health , **I don't give a donkey kong what it required for that dmg to happen** , even if the warrior player must dance Tic Tac Toe for 10m before anything...I still wouldn't care.
And yet even with that era Ele had a build that could go toe to toe with and was significantly favored against Spellbreaker in the form of Fire Weaver.
> There is nothing to justify that damage other than class bias, ofc I don't agree with perma stalemate but neither I will ever accept a "one shot" meta where you die if you miss one dodge...it's stupid, it's ill designed, it's not for a MMO
Lol. If anything GW2 is merciful in how limited it actually has been to truly one shot a player compared to basically every other MMORPG that has ever existed. I don't think builds should be able to just one shot anything they look at. But you should die if you miss the wrong dodge at the wrong time.
Make mesmer viable.
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"bravan.3876" said:
> I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you.
I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense.