mortrialus.3062

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > I'd like to see the Video.

> > >

> > > EDIT: Nevermind, I found it in the Thief subsection for some reason.

> >

> > I KNOW right? But if there's any specific profession you'd like me to dig up and compare it to modern footage of said profession on the same or at least similar stats I'm happy to attempt to do so.

>

> Ye, Ranger, good luck with that one =D

 

2014 No Might 4.8k Maul, medium armor target.

 


 

2020 No Might 3.2k Maul Medium Golem, light golem 4,001 damage

 


 


 

Video I referenced:

 

Neither of which come close to slapping a _thief_ as hard as it did in 2014.

 

Edit: MORE Post 2020 patch damage numbers, crits on Berserker's amulet no might. Still don't compare.

 


 

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> I'd like to see the Video.

>

> EDIT: Nevermind, I found it in the Thief subsection for some reason.

 

I KNOW right? But if there's any specific profession you'd like me to dig up and compare it to modern footage of said profession on the same or at least similar stats I'm happy to attempt to do so.

Because some people who clearly don't deserve the paycheck they're getting can't read, my thread was tossed into the trash bin.

 

So to isolate this topic into a more easily digestible form;

 

**Everyone** is doing less DPS overall compared to what their professions with the same stat set did back in Pre-Heart of Thorns. Damage and burst are significantly lower overall than it has ever been in game, even compared to the "slow" Core-GW2 era. And if you want and ask for it I can post video evidence of a Vanilla Guild Wars 2 class and a class now and show how much more damage the Vanilla class does with the exact same stat type.

Seriously? Some stupid ass moderator tossed this in the thief subforum? What in the ever loving FUCK is the matter with you? My point stands across literally ALL builds. I can post Beserker pre-hot warriors getting 20k hundred blades on targets while current warriors will struggle to do half as much. I can post mesmers getting 7k Mirror blades. THAT's what this thread is about. This is not a thief thread, this is about literally EVERY profession in SPVP. EVERYONE is doing less damage than what they were doing in Core GW2 SPvP.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > Backstab in 2013: 2.4 coefficient

> > > > Backstab in 2020: 1.8 coefficient

> > >

> > > Though many modifiers now are vastly superior

> >

> > Lead Attacks is only in combat,

> > Marauder amulet has 50 less power and 60 less ferocity,

> > I don't even count other DA nerfs.

>

> U seem to forget that elite specs exist also they tweak some skills yes ex. Swindlers equilibrium now gives power which helps a lot. But not counting De just look at daredevil +5% per dodge which is up to 15% which is really good and again look at bounding dodger another 15% that’s 30% alone from taking daredevil which alone brings the coefficient near what you mentioned also damage per unique condition is nothing to laugh about in DA and for one you have more condition and a completely superior new skill - even the odds which adds 5% more and extra power.

> So sry no matter which way you look at it modifiers are vastly superior bringing damage to actually great levels in addition to many new skills which are actually great like basically everything in SA rn

 

Yes, go ahead and berzerker amulet bounding dodger into backstab oh wait, you're (just like I said) doing less damage than Vanilla Guild Wars 2. Just like how Bull's Rush with Peak Performance into Arcing Slice Into 100 Blades is less damage than just Bull's Rushing into 100 Blades back in Pre-HoT (Or Earth Shaker into Hundred Blades which is what I used to use back then).

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > Don’t need to compare with warrior lol they are thief builds ?

> >

> > He means "check warrior damage now and check warrior damage in core, then compare those two"

>

> I already checked the thief damage of similar builds and got the exact same and sometimes higher though so why would i

 

Alright post it. I'm waaaaaaaiiiiting.

 


 

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Most builds deserve less condition cleanse, to be honest. Like daredevils being able to take both Escapist's Fortitude and Shadow's Embrace? That's a nonsensical level of condition cleanse, functionally immune unless you are stunned for something like eight seconds straight with no stunbreaks. Spectral walk? Absolutely never needed condition cleanse on it and adding that only power crept it to being an insanely uncompetitive best in slot skill no other utility can compare with.

>

> ... do you think condi builds only apply 1 condition per second, rather than several instantly? Or that they can use both of them at the same time (as in dodge in stealth)? Thief is still poorly matched up against condi, even with those. That is, if they were running both. Thieves arent running Escapist's Fortitude anymore, its not good. You run Marauder's Resilience.

 

[sindrener himself says run Escapist's Fortitude against heavy condi](

). It's not a matter of "Thieves run Marauder's Resilience and that's that." it's a matter of what exactly they are matched up against. So you have a tech choice, MR vs Power and EF vs Condition. He even says one of the things that is good on thief right now is not an exact perfected science and that you can play around with a number of traits depending on what you are facing. Wild!

 

No build should be 100% immune to condition damage. Yours and other's insistence on this idea is ridiculous. Cleanse should potentially save you, the way having protection before eating a power burst should potentially save you. But if you're eating blow after blow after blow of high value condition damage skills you should die to condition damage overall regardless of build. It should be up to you to _avoid_ taking damage entirely, which is entirely possible as in terms of landing damage conditions play by the exact same rule as power damage, with the variance of power dealing damage immediately but dealing with toughness and protection and condition doing higher dps overall but with the potential to be cleansed. Emphasis on potential, no build should be unkillable to condition damage.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No one is willing to challenge me on this.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I already tested it and u seem to be wrong. A video is useful if it’s helpful, but anyone can tell that their builds are way different and figure it’s just not 1-1 and if they test this 1 case? They will find it’s not much different just certain skills and equipment that are different. I just see near zero evidence that this is overall true

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Alright, post your videos on Berserker Amulet no Assassin Signet Back Stabs hitting harder than the 8k they were hitting in Core GW2

> > > > >

> > > > > Again that would be completely irrelevant a video is useful if it’s helpful which in this case a single extreme case backstab doesn’t prove that the entire game has less damage than it did before. Actually what I’d suggest this being moved to the thief sub forum as it is only about thief and only a thief meta issue not pvp in general

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This doesn't apply to thieves. It applies to every build. Thief is just the quickest example because there are so many sweaty pre-hot thief pvp videos.

> > >

> > > No it doesn’t apply to anything but thief’s as you only posted 2 thief builds that aren’t 1-1 except for the fact that they are popular. This is a thief meta issue not a pvp issue

> >

> > You are more than welcome to go on warrior and record yourself doing a 100 blades burst and comparing it against a 2012-2015 hundred blades burst on the same stat set and proving me wrong. There are plenty of Berserker's Amulet warrior PvP videos to compare yourself with.

>

> Don’t need to compare with warrior lol they are thief builds ?

 

This might be a hard concept for you

 

But you can post your own build of any other class, and compare it's damage output compared to pre-heart of thorns variants of the build running the same stats, and then actually draw a conclusion on what damage numbers are based on your ability to interpret data and numbers.

Most builds deserve less condition cleanse, to be honest. Like daredevils being able to take both Escapist's Fortitude and Shadow's Embrace? That's a nonsensical level of condition cleanse, functionally immune unless you are stunned for something like eight seconds straight with no stunbreaks. Spectral walk? Absolutely never needed condition cleanse on it and adding that only power crept it to being an insanely uncompetitive best in slot skill no other utility can compare with.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No one is willing to challenge me on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

> > > > >

> > > > > I already tested it and u seem to be wrong. A video is useful if it’s helpful, but anyone can tell that their builds are way different and figure it’s just not 1-1 and if they test this 1 case? They will find it’s not much different just certain skills and equipment that are different. I just see near zero evidence that this is overall true

> > > >

> > > > Alright, post your videos on Berserker Amulet no Assassin Signet Back Stabs hitting harder than the 8k they were hitting in Core GW2

> > >

> > > Again that would be completely irrelevant a video is useful if it’s helpful which in this case a single extreme case backstab doesn’t prove that the entire game has less damage than it did before. Actually what I’d suggest this being moved to the thief sub forum as it is only about thief and only a thief meta issue not pvp in general

> > >

> > >

> >

> > This doesn't apply to thieves. It applies to every build. Thief is just the quickest example because there are so many sweaty pre-hot thief pvp videos.

>

> No it doesn’t apply to anything but thief’s as you only posted 2 thief builds that aren’t 1-1 except for the fact that they are popular. This is a thief meta issue not a pvp issue

 

You are more than welcome to go on warrior and record yourself doing a 100 blades burst and comparing it against a 2012-2015 hundred blades burst on the same stat set and proving me wrong. There are plenty of Berserker's Amulet warrior PvP videos to compare yourself with.

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > You must have not met tiger and pigeon

>

> Ranger pet damage completely supports op. Tiger and bird damage has seen little to no changes since the early vanilla days and now that current damage for most weapon skills is significantly lower than any other point in this game's history, pet damage seems really strong only because it hasn't changed.

 

Bird was core, Tiger was introduced in Heart of Thorns. So Tiger is a genuine example of potential legitimate power creep. Bird damage, however, is not. Bird damage is just bird damage which seems massive in an environment where everyone is doing significantly less damage than was bird was designed to compete with.

 

I hate to be a pet peeve but I emphasize being as accurate as possible. So while I reject your tiger example, if damage numbers were truly so low in 2012-2015 GW2 why does unchanged bird feel so explosively lethal compared to everything else? The answer is because Bird was designed to compete with significantly higher DPS numbers from everyone, which no one can compare with post balance patch.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

> > > >

> > > > Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

> > > >

> > > > No one is willing to challenge me on this.

> > > >

> > > > Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

> > >

> > > I already tested it and u seem to be wrong. A video is useful if it’s helpful, but anyone can tell that their builds are way different and figure it’s just not 1-1 and if they test this 1 case? They will find it’s not much different just certain skills and equipment that are different. I just see near zero evidence that this is overall true

> >

> > Alright, post your videos on Berserker Amulet no Assassin Signet Back Stabs hitting harder than the 8k they were hitting in Core GW2

>

> Again that would be completely irrelevant a video is useful if it’s helpful which in this case a single extreme case backstab doesn’t prove that the entire game has less damage than it did before. Actually what I’d suggest this being moved to the thief sub forum as it is only about thief and only a thief meta issue not pvp in general

>

>

 

This doesn't apply to thieves. It applies to every build. Thief is just the quickest example because there are so many sweaty pre-hot thief pvp videos.

 

Literally everyone's damage, across the board, is lower than it was in 2012-2015. Across literally all of the professions.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

> >

> > Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

> >

> > No one is willing to challenge me on this.

> >

> > Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

>

> I already tested it and u seem to be wrong. A video is useful if it’s helpful, but anyone can tell that their builds are way different and figure it’s just not 1-1 and if they test this 1 case? They will find it’s not much different just certain skills and equipment that are different. I just see near zero evidence that this is overall true

 

Alright, post your 2020 videos of your Berserker Amulet no Assassin Signet Back Stabs hitting harder than the 8k they were hitting in 2012-2015 GW2.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

> >

> > Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

> >

> > No one is willing to challenge me on this.

> >

> > Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

>

> "PSA: These are not Pre-HoT Damage Numbers. Damage is significantly lower than Pre-Hot"

>

> Actually all anyone has to do is prove to you damage is not "significantly lower than Pre-HoT" so it seems to me quite easy to do by simply looking up skill coefficients and adding in damage mods. I might do that tomorrow evening but for now I have sleep.

>

> For argument's sake I will say significant is 25% less damage in total, that sound fair?

 

Considering I've already shown historically thieves did 70-100% more damage on their major damage skills than they do now, it's going to take more than just picking out one CC that somehow escaped getting tweaked at all like Shadow Shot. We're looking at skills that actually matter like Burning Rush on Eles, Arcing Slice on Warriors, Hundred Blades on Warrior, Pistol Whip on Thieves, Mind Wrack on Elementalists, Lich Form autos on necromancer.

 

At the end of the day, after all these replies, has anyone ACTUALLY provided video evidence of equivalently equipped MegaBalance builds doing **more** damage than their Pre-Heart of Thorns counter parts? Like seriously folks, if you've got it bring it. It should be child's play. Finding modern day Berserker's stats thief and 2014 Berserker's stats thief was EASY. Heck I checked Guardian and warrior before I even started talking about how we're in a lower damage meta than Pre-Hot.

 

Like it should be trivially easy, "oh here's 2020 core zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior and it's doing WAY more damage than 2012 zerker ranger/guardian/necro/mesmer/warrior!" reapply to whatever class you see fit.

 

No one is willing to challenge me on this.

 

Damage is lower post-megabalance than it has ever been. Period. This isn't "a return to form."

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> >

> > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> >

> > Core Guild Wars 2:

> >

> >

> >

> > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> >

> > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> >

> >

> >

> > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> >

> > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> >

> > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

>

> Lol u look at one skill comparing 2 builds that still aren’t close in dps and claim damage is worse. Why don’t we look at a decent core dp build -

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAgqlNw2YYMQGJWKP6rTA-zZALBbHA

>

> What I get with this on a light golem after stealing in is about 7k including leaching venoms and about 6k on heavies. And this doesn’t have all the modifiers you would see in combat like full lead attacks, also the highest I’ve seen in matches is 8k on the actual backstab and then u have to including leeching venoms and boon steal + fear which wasn’t around at the time.

> Now this seems like damage is about the same, the only problems I really think are valid imo would just be that build doesn’t do a lot though part of it is the nerf to lead attacks. But you seem to be very wrong on this, it’s just the build you present that has less damage and yet this one seems fine and btw is way tankier while still having incredible stealth.

> Conclusion: L2P issue

 

You're comparing Assassin's Signet burst with two different bursts neither of which are using Assassin's Signet. Sure one is using Deadly Arts and one is Using Daredevil. But both are using Berserker Amulet. No offense, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and that assume the higher end tier of back stabs Sindrener is getting here are competently executed and high damage for what we can expect from thief/daredevil right now.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3k-4k-5k.....And the healing/sustain was much higher than now too...did you consider that? If you want that level of dmg than we must get back also that level of sustain

> > > >

> > > > I never asked for a return to core-gw2 balance, let alone **this**.

> > >

> > > Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true!

> >

> > I didn't wish for jack aside from maybe a 10% damage reduction from where we were, and certainly not a 30-50%. I thought pre-megabalance we were within 10% of reaching the overall goal for balancing with a small handful of exceptions. Druids, Renegades, Chronos, Dragonhunters and Scourges needed buffs. But you saw Power and Condition guardians, aggressive and support firebrands, Fire Weavers, Support Tempests, Condition mirages and core mesmers, core warriors and duelist spellbreakers, Daredevil SP thieves and DP core and Deadeyes, Soulbeast and Core Ranger, Reapers and Core Necromancers, Rifle Holos Prot Holos and Scrappers. All of which were VERy common in ranked.

> >

> > We've regressed to a point where if you aren't playing; Core Necro, Symbolbrand, ProtHolo, Lightning Rod Weaver/Tempest, Core DP Thief, and Power/Condi Revenant you might as well not play. Revenant having viable power and condition builds is basically the most build variety you will see now.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3k-4k-5k.....And the healing/sustain was much higher than now too...did you consider that? If you want that level of dmg than we must get back also that level of sustain

> > > >

> > > > I never asked for a return to core-gw2 balance, let alone **this**.

> > >

> > > Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true!

> >

> > I didn't wish for jack aside from maybe a 10% damage reduction from where we were, and certainly not a 30-50%. I thought pre-megabalance we were within 10% of reaching the overall goal for balancing with a small handful of exceptions. Druids, Renegades, Chronos, Dragonhunters and Scourges needed buffs. But you saw Power and Condition guardians, aggressive and support firebrands, Fire Weavers, Support Tempests, Condition mirages and core mesmers, core warriors and duelist spellbreakers, Daredevil SP thieves and DP core and Deadeyes, Soulbeast and Core Ranger, Reapers and Core Necromancers, Rifle Holos Prot Holos and Scrappers. All of which were VERy common in ranked.

> >

> > We've regressed to a point where if you aren't playing; Core Necro, Symbolbrand, ProtHolo, Lightning Rod Weaver/Tempest, Core DP Thief, and Power/Condi Revenant you might as well not play. Revenant having viable power and condition builds is basically the most build variety you will see now.

>

> That's not reason to wish back the hell that was GW2 when thieves had access to broken trait dmg like **Pulmonary impact**, your title is misleading....you're maybe asking the devs to fine tune current dmg/sustain levels and that's fine.....**but nobody with memories still fresh** want to see dmg buffs on thief

 

You can go back and watch someone like WoodenPotatoes play Scepter Focus Ele back in Pre-Hot and get higher damage numbers than Scepter Eles are seeing now.

 

I posted thief videos because it's an easy example and the first thing that came up with the search "GW2 2014 PvP".

 

Everyone is doing less damage than in Pre-Heart of Thorns. Literally everyone. Elementalists, Necromancers, Mesmers, Rangers, Thieves, Engineers, Warriors, and Guardians.

 

Thief was just any easy example where I thought people could easily see "Oh snap that's clearly way lower than it was back then".

 

This isn't about thief, it's about literally everyone.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > >

> > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > >

> > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > >

> > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > >

> > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > >

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> > > >

> > > > Core Guild Wars 2:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > >

> > > > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> > > >

> > > > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> > > >

> > > > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> > >

> > > 3k-4k-5k.....And the healing/sustain was much higher than now too...did you consider that? If you want that level of dmg than we must get back also that level of sustain

> >

> > I never asked for a return to core-gw2 balance, let alone **this**.

>

> Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true!

 

I didn't wish for jack aside from maybe a 10% damage reduction from where we were, and certainly not a 30-50%. I thought pre-megabalance we were within 10% of reaching the overall goal for balancing with a small handful of exceptions. Druids, Renegades, Chronos, Dragonhunters and Scourges needed buffs. But you saw Power and Condition guardians, aggressive and support firebrands, Fire Weavers, Support Tempests, Condition mirages and core mesmers, core warriors and duelist spellbreakers, Daredevil SP thieves and DP core and Deadeyes, Soulbeast and Core Ranger, Reapers and Core Necromancers, Rifle Holos Prot Holos and Scrappers. All of which were VERy common in ranked.

 

We've regressed to a point where if you aren't playing; Core Necro, Symbolbrand, ProtHolo, Lightning Rod Weaver/Tempest, Core DP Thief, and Power/Condi Revenant you might as well not play. Revenant having viable power and condition builds is basically the most build variety you will see now.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said:

> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 64,804.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is:

> > > > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%.

> > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

> > > > >

> > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn.

> > > > >

> > > > > Solutions:

> > > > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above

> > > > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds.

> > > > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time.

> > > > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there.

> > > >

> > > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.**

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> > > >

> > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously.

> > >

> > > It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted.

> >

> > "Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN"

> >

> > Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are.

> >

> > Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released.

> >

> > Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian.

> >

> > I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got.

>

> Mortrialus, i have a question to ask you, what is the problem that you have with Necromancer Profession? Obviously, we do not have 'all-in-one' design like others including Thief Profession so exactly, what is the problem that make your experience fighting with Necromancer Toxic?

 

Lots and very little at the same time tbh.

 

Pre-MegaBalance patch Core Necromancer was a top tier excellent build with multiple MAT victories and Top 10 Ranked placements under it's belt despite not being outright godly. Post megabalance with everyone's damage nerfed even lower than it was in PreHoT-GW2, Necromancer has gone from being top tier in terms of defensive capabilities to literally god like. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if literally every necromancer wasn't running both Power Crept Spectral Walk and boosted Flesh Wurm, and thus any fight necromancer engaged in was something they committed to. But right now you can expect a flesh worm planted max range from the node, the necromancer to engage with Spectral Walk and the second you look at them they'll snap back. Then when they charge back in they snap back with Flesh Wurm again. Necromancers are both exceptionally tanky while having more squirrelly evasive combat mechanics than Mesmer right now. It's literally packing more ports on a tankier class than Mesmer right now.

 

>

> - And also unlike Thief Profession and others, it is our lore and our core root to remain alive as long we can...i just don't understand why some don't understand this. Sure it took us a very long time to get to this state and that it causes some to feel uncomfortable but understand this, this is who we are, this is our identity-we feed on life force to stay alive

 

Like he's the thing about lore... even if you're channeling the same god or power source everyone's capability of channeling said power is going to be different. Just like everyone's capacity to strength train is different. Or everyone's capacity to sprint long distances is different.

 

All the core professions channel different gods or combinations of gods, or rather, at least their spectrum of magic. This includes thieves, mesmers, and necromancers.

 

> (by the way, i clearly know that you are a very skillful experience player and have absolutely no problem fighting us...so what is it?)

Outside of portal, in terms of combat efficacy I don't think anyone can be honest and not admit Mesmer isn't the least impactful class in the game right now.

 

 

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> >

> > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> >

> > Core Guild Wars 2:

> >

> >

> >

> > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> >

> > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> >

> >

> >

> > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> >

> > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> >

> > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

> >

> > Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

> >

> > Core Guild Wars 2:

> >

> >

> >

> > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> >

> > 2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

> >

> >

> >

> > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

> >

> > You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

> >

> > Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

>

> 3k-4k-5k.....And the healing/sustain was much higher than now too...did you consider that? If you want that level of dmg than we must get back also that level of sustain

 

I never asked for a return to core-gw2 balance, let alone **this**.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> um...

>

> are you ok Morty?

>

> did something hit your head.

>

> you are not supposed to defend thieves, even indirectly.

>

> about face.

 

PLEASE.

 

I am not defending thieves.

 

I'm **using you** as an example.

 

It's **NOT** like I like you or anything.

 


 

I've quickly gotten rather fed up with all the wild smoldering hot takes about how post balance patch is a "Return to Pre-HoT Guild Wars 2". Or that this a return to form for Guild Wars 2.

 

Damage in Pre-Heart of Thorns was considerably higher than it is compared to post Mega Balance Patch.

 

Core Guild Wars 2:

 

 

7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. 8k on really ridiculous montage crits. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

 

2020 Post Mega Balance Patch:

 

 

For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Here we're looking at 3k back stabs, 4k back stabs, 5k backstabs at most.

 

You can talk about how much you prefer things now. But this isn't a "return to form." We have shot back past the "form" by 25%. And if you look at other classes like Warrior you'll find a similar situation; We are all doing less DPS now than were were in Core GW2.

 

Prefer what you prefer. But get off your high horse like this is some sort of reorigination of GW2's PvP. GW2's PvP was never this slow and burst was always higher than it currently is now.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time.

> > > >

> > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer

> > > >

> > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits

> > > >

> > > > 64,804.

> > > >

> > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option.

> > > >

> > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.**

> > > >

> > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own.

> > > >

> > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are.

> > > >

> > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > >

> > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > >

> > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> > > >

> > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage.

> > >

> > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta.

> > >

> > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is:

> > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%.

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

> > >

> > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn.

> > >

> > > Solutions:

> > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above

> > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds.

> > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time.

> > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there.

> >

> > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.**

> >

> >

> >

> > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

> >

> > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously.

>

> It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted.

 

"Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN"

 

Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are.

 

Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released.

 

Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian.

 

I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got.

 

Like maybe if pre-hot you played celestial engineer or soldier's engineer for your entire career, you took a break, and then you came into Path of Fire where the tankiest amulet in the game was Paladins I'm sure the increase in speed of combat was shocking. But compared to the defensively crept nonsense of Heart of Thorns and even the absolutely most noxious nonsense from Core, Path of Fire felt reasonably well minus maybe 100-200 healing per second.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away.

> > >

> > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time.

> >

> > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer

> >

> > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits

> >

> > 64,804.

> >

> > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option.

> >

> > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.**

> >

> > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own.

> >

> > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are.

> >

> > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> >

> > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> >

> > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now.

> >

> > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage.

>

> Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta.

>

> The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is:

> August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud

>

> What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn.

>

> Solutions:

> Revert the Death Shroud degen change above

> Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds.

> Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time.

> Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there.

 

Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.**

 

 

7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now.

 

For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is.

 

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values.

>

> I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting.

>

> The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe.

 

For starters, shroud was build for 2012 damage when damage across the board was higher than we're seeing now. Shroud was literally not built for this level of damage, hence why necros are so bloated defensively it's taking three players to kill one.

 

Sorry but this idea of "Everything should be unkillable and no one should die unless they get focused by the entire enemy team at once" that people like you propagate is fucking stupid. We saw the same stupid shit when Scrappers got reworked. Literally nothing, nothing is more unhealthy for the game mode than things that are broken defensively and grinding the game to a halt. Even overpowered one shot builds aren't that toxic if they suitably glass. 40% damage boost sic em soulbeast was never as toxic for the game mode as Reworked Scrapper was then and Core Necro is now because it can't twist literally the entire game around itself the way real bunkers do.

 

You're seeing games with 40% necro representation in them. That's time to wake up and realize something is wrong.