mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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Rev is probably on the chopping block after Firebrand+Necro.
My main impression with Ranger is that while they are hitting really hard, when ranked conquest comes back I think what's probably going to be a lot more problematic with them right now is that whether it's Ranger, Druid, or Soulbeast they are just way too slippery in their capacity to disengage from a fight at this point. Considering most things got nerfed in that regard, and I'm playing Sword Mirage which was previously alongside Thief as one of the fastest builds in the game and I can't even hope to keep up with any of these ranger specs. Granted they were just as fast and slippery before but it's a lot more noticeable now that for almost everything else mobility across the board has seen a lot of cuts;
Very high swiftness up time, greatsword 3 1,000 range leap, bird swoop if they're soulbeast and using that pet 1,200 range leap, if they're sword they have the sword 2+aboutface combo. Druid Staff 3 1200 range leap, they're able to use stealth with smoke scale and then use their mobility to cover huge distances, they have good access to a ton of stability stacks at once which can make it impossible to CC them while they disengage, and if they're running wilderness survival their cleanse capacity to shrug off things like Cripple, Chill, and Immobilization also very very high.
I don't think anything outside of a thief at this point can keep up with a ranger at all now.
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> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:
> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:
> > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:
> > > > > > > > Mug can't be spammed even if someone decided to waste it on a clone or a pet.
> > > > > > > > Ice Shard Stab was already hotfixed.
> > > > > > > > CnD won't be abused because it's slow, clunky, relatively buggy and 5 ini just ain't worth it to spam.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not true at all let me break it down-
> > > > > > > using mark on a clone will most likely kill it and refresh mark immediately, this is 100% risk free spammable and can give an insane amount of boons.
> > > > > > > Ice shard was hot fixed but guess what tooth stab wasn’t and it deals the same damage ice shard did.
> > > > > > > Sword burst was basically untouched besides autos so now u can just use w.e u have- tactical strike sword 3 or 5 and u get away with it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You don't nerf a skill that may be abused as a result of other skill usage. Fix mark, don't nerf core. _(also my mark never oneshoted a clone, but I guess it can happen)_
> > > > > > Tooth stab is inaccessible in PvP even on pets, clones and beasts it's a random roll item _(at least I think it's not guaranteed)_, so even if you really happened to get it as stolen item its somewhat of a good reward for wasting your steal in a RNG attempt to get it.
> > > > > > Sword burst was never big to begin with, it's not even a burst set, the fact you can use CnD which happens to have higher dmg than its other skills doesn't magically make it bursty, almost all other professions have about two skills on most weapon sets that hit harder than other weapon skills on the same weapon, it's their purpose. It's simply intended to have some weapon skills hit harder than other skills on that weapon, that's why they cost more to use _(or have higher CD, etc.)_.
> > > > > > CnD simply never was a dangerous nor spammable skill, I don't deny that you might have a different experience, but in my time I've never seen it be useful for anything than very very very occasional combo with steal and even then it randomly didn't land, anytime some Thief attempted to spam it I just undamaged him without even having to dodge.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tooth stab is not inaccessible in pvp and 2 hits from that would ko most targets and that’s obviously busted.
> > > > > My suggestion to add an icd wouldnt affect core builds at all- just put a 5 sec icd on mug etc. to make sure mark doesn’t abuse it and because 5 secs isn’t enough for daredevil or core to get steal back it wouldn’t impact them.
> > > > > And yeah with de ur goona have to spam something with initiative and having a random skill busted is no bueno, but you can disagree it’s w.e
> > > >
> > > > How do you access tooth stab in PvP?
> > >
> > > I think he must mean ice shard stab, and it was already fixed.
> > >
> > > **Ice Shard Stab: Fixed an issue in which the damage increase for this skill was applied in all game modes instead of only PvE.**
> >
> > No I don’t mean ice shard. Tooth stab also has this bug and was not patched, it is a random roll item from beast etc and it can upper limit of 10k per which is busted and will 2 hit ko ppl.
> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > > All these resources are abusable!
> > > >
> > > > 1.) mug or mark require a rework or icd, as it can be used endlessly on clones downed targets or pets for insane boons or healing
> > > > 2.) tactical strike needs a huge nerf to bring it inline, as it is a cc that can do up to 7k on DE
> > > > 3.) tooth stab can do 10k per plz fix
> > > > Other stuff of lower but still very high priority
> > > > 4.) feline grace needs a real icd, in addition to icds for bountiful theft and possibly be quick or be killed, becuz why is there an option that may be permanent boons/stat boost
> > > > 5.) M7 probably gives too much initiative and when combined with mercy I can give permanent full initiative
> > > > 6.) same problem with mark and mug- thrill of the crime needs icd reason already stated
> > > > 7.) many weapon skills damage not touched like cloak and dagger and this will be taken advantage of. where as the change to sw/d 3 is logical because at least flanking strike was nerfed, but maybe do something to prevent larcenous strike spam also Becuz that will also be taken advantage/spammed which isn’t skillful.
> > > > 8.) besides Deadeye builds that are busted with mark spam crit strikes dps and for some builds even the utility is starting to be very busted
> > > >
> > > > I think I can go on and on actually but these things especially the first 3 should be hot fixed immediately. Also hopefully the comment section will be full of things that are just busted on thief atm as I’m sure there’s plenty
> > >
> > > Ill go through the list.
> > >
> > > 1. if anything needs a cooldown, it would be mark.
> > > 2. tactical strike is soft cc, and 7k is very unlikely without plenty of qualifiers, meaning it will never happen in normal play alone even on zerk.
> > > 3. Tooth stab is not in pvp, you must mean ice shard stab, and it has already been patched.
> > > 4. feline grace got a competitive reduction already to 3 seconds, and acrobatics means less burst from a thief, so less burst should allow for more sustain.....
> > > 5. fine nerf those
> > > 6. if anything needs a cooldown, it's mark
> > > 7. many weapons go untouched because (1) they only do slow well telegraphed damage, (2) they are only afffective under certain conditions and/or (3) they have high initiative cost unjustified to their effects. The idea was not to lower every damage skill across the board, because they WERE NOT...across the board.
> > > 8. I don't think you have a real build in mind, but if you do lets see some game play with this eternal intiative busted utility, eternal dodging DE.
> > >
> > > I have heard that bunker staff is back, and I actually believe that one is possibly true.
> > >
> > > I would trust the claims of mortrialus, and shadowpass for broken thief stuff before this list above.
> > >
> > > That and the gameplay from sindrener
> > >
> > >
> >
> > 1.)If mark needs a cd to prevent 3 things on that list from being exploited than it’s very exploitable.
> > 2.)doesn’t matter if it’s hard to get 7k on tactical strike it’s still about 2000% the damage of other ccs and no it’s not really that soft...
> > 3.) yes it is
> > 4.)feline graced nerfed and yet still 300% perma in combat uptime of vigor??? Make it 100% than claim it needs more burst...
> > 5.)yes bunker staff/staff is a thing in 2v2s with crit strikes valk and daredevil rube or at least I’ve been running it and most ppl I talked to think it’s one of the better 2v2 builds
> > 6.)just lol you didn’t name a single expert on thief mechanics and they are more trust worthy than my list of completely exploitable issues atm? Wow
>
> 1. You can nerf your mark all you want, but you will be back here asking for them to roll it back. I hope they do nerf it.
> 2. Yes, it does matter. Also, this is a stealth attack, requires you to flank to get the bonus, and to get that high of damage or access to the attack requires and offensive investment. IT IS FINE.
> 3. Where does it come from? Which pets, because they apparently all have certain rolls they can drop.
> 4. If you use dodges or weapon evades or utilities to gain 3 seconds of vigor, I really don't see a problem. It does have a cost. Enhanced vigor from a defensive trait line is fine.
> 5. I wouldn't be surprised. Staff is a poorly designed weapon.
> 6. @"bluri.2653" is THE thief expert, I think the mention of him was enough. I say @"shadowpass.4236" because he was pointing out the problems with staff thief accurately, and @"mortrialus.3062" because he and his minions or alts can get thief nerfed like no other.
I don't have minions, I have clones and phantasms.
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> @"mrauls.6519" said:
> I've noticed that thieves can seriously lock me down in unranked. I'm not even sure what the heck is going on. I'm assuming it's a mix of F1, Guardian daze/stun stolen skill and Pistol 4. Probably other skills I'm not listing as well. Am I the only one losing their mind? With the decrease of stability access, their CC **hurts**. I think this needs to be addressed ASAP, along with Firebrand and Necromancer
The only major change I can think of that I'm noticing is Shortbow as Choking Gas now 100% a daze regardless of poison stacks.
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> @"Obtena.7952" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > The only thing stopping banning classes is the developer's own will. They can literally do whatever they see fit.
> > > >
> > > Their is a difference here. The ability to do whatever they want isn't what matters. The DISCRETION to do something IS. There will NEVER be a ban on classes, WHATEVER motivates it. It's one of the most nonsensical requests I've seen yet.
> >
> > Arenanet saw fit to hard disable Chaotic Interruption in PvP when CI Mirage was running absolutely rough shot over the game mode, and it absolutely deserved that.
> >
> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp
> >
> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81789/we-need-emergency-nerfs
>
> OK ... but we are talking about banning classes, not changing traits ... or are you confused about your own thread?
Arenanet literally disabled Chaotic Interruption in SPvP. If you moused over the trait it would say "DISABLED". If you picked the trait it literally wouldn't do anything. It wasn't just nerfed months later. It was outright removed from play until they reworked it
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> @"Aza.2105" said:
> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:
> > > @"Aza.2105" said:
> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:
> > > > > @"Aza.2105" said:
> > > > > Probably because mirage has multiple invuls,
> > > > 4 second with max clones per 50 seconds
> > > >
> > > > > evade,
> > > > Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist.
> > > >
> > > > > clone spam (that players have to sort through)
> > > > 1 clone on dodge W O W
> > > >
> > > > > blink
> > > > the only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime
> > > >
> > > > > and access to stealth
> > > > 2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf
> > > >
> > >
> > > Don't forget blurred frenzy. Mirage has the tools, its up to you how you utilize them. Its finally time to learn how to start making good decisions and be penalized for making bad ones.
> >
> > BF is trash. 8x 1sec on retal = dead.
>
> Then make the good decision not to use it on a player with retaliation. Its not like every class has access to it and especially after this patch its not like there will be high up time to it.
Literally every class in the game has access to retaliation through either weapon skills, utility skills, or traits. Literally every single one.
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> @"Refuriation.5246" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said:
> > > They should have banned mirage when everyone and their mother was playing it, and we were begging for it to be balanced.
> > >
> > > Should have banned spellbreaker when it was overpowered.
> > >
> > > Should have banned scourge and FB when it dominated the first half of the PoF lifespan.
> > >
> > > Y'all wanted to sit and defend your classes for ages. You made your bed, now lie in it. I don't feel remotely sorry for anyone after these forums were playing deaf for years when it actually mattered.
> >
> > I asked for Chronomancer post Phantasm rework back when it was 2 shotting people with Phantasmal Disenchanter and Defender to be hard banned. I've called for Condition Mirage and Mesmer nerfs in general for literally years now after the Phantasm rework.
> >
> > And as for Spellbreaker, Scourge, and Firebrand while I've called for nerfs to specific areas I've never suggested they get banned because I've never felt like an achievement like top 10 was impossible for other builds the way it is now, because as strong as they were we lived in an environment where Mirage/Holosmith/Druid(At the time)/Herald/Weaver/Thief in General had competitive builds.
> >
> > So you can keep your accusations of hypocrisy to yourself.
>
> And yet when I go through your post history it is all defending the mesmer class and complaining about other classes. Bro you are getting old, it's time to head for your bed and sleep for a long time.
> @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:
> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:
> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:
> > > > How about leaving things as is?
> > >
> > > Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.
> > >
> > > Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.
> >
> > Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.
>
> Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.
>
> Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.
>
> Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.
>
> > @"Levetty.1279" said:
> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:
> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:
> > > > How about leaving things as is?
> > >
> > > Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp
> >
> > Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.
> >
> >
> You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.
- April 9, 2018
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> @"Arken.3725" said:
> I'm actually for a temporary ban on FB. Not even joking.
Even top tier firebrands agree.
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> @"Spellhunter.9675" said:
> There is at least 1 setup in 2v2 hardcounter both necro and fb. But as I can see most people can't even use their brains to figure this out. So guys, wait a couple of days and metabattle will tell you how to play the game.
Which is why 9 of the top 10 are playing either firebrand or necro right now. And why you're definitely on the top 250 with your secret miraculous hard counter to Firebrand and necro.
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> @"claytonmorby.3751" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Kuma.1503" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon has banned cards.
> > >
> > > I agree that FB Necro comps are too strong, but this is misinformation. It's very, very hard to get a character banned in fighting games. Bayonetta was never banned, but you could easily argue that she should have been. She single handedly lead to the most controversial grand finals tournament at the end of smash 4's lifespan. If you haven't seen the infamous moment, I suggest looking up Lima vs Captain Zac.
> > >
> > > Meta Knight came *very close* to being banned in Brawl, there was a mass effort from the biggest tourney organizers to ban him at all tournaments. Unfortunately, one guy decided not to ban him at his tourney. He just so happened to be the owner of Apex, the biggest smash tourney world wide. Due to this one guy, the entire attempt to ban MK fell apart because people would rather play by the rules set by the biggest stage.
> > >
> > > As for why it's so hard to get characters banned in fighting games. People invest countless hours into those characters. Namely, the big competetors like Zero, Nario, Dabuz, M2k, Leffen, Mango, ect. Players like these have huge influences in the community, they're who spectators come to see. If you ban a top tier like MK, you effectively ban these players from the tournament. It would be like going to a sports game only to realize that all of your favorite players have been replaced.
> > >
> > > tl;dr, banning characters is hard. Attempts to do so almost always fail in fighting games, likely will here too.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Bayonetta was banned in multiple locals until she was appropriately nerfed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Metaknight was absolutely banned in North America.
> >
> > https://www.ign.com/articles/2011/10/03/meta-knight-banned-from-super-smash-bros-brawl
> >
> > Cloud was banned from Doubles.
> >
> > https://www.ssbwiki.com/Cloud_(SSB4)#Banned_in_Doubles
> >
> > Hero was banned in Australia and France
> >
> > https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl
> >
> >
> > I understand that players invest countless hours into their favorite characters and classes. I do not suggest banning Necromancer and Firebrand recklessly and with no thought. I care about Necromancer and Firebrand mains. I want metas where each and every one of the top 10 is occupied by a different top tier player maining a different class, and across all tiers all classes are viable.
> >
> > I do not recklessly call for bans or nerfs.
> >
> > Necromancer and Firebrand deserve to be banned from 2v2.
>
> You are recklessly calling for bans and nerfs. Over a gamemode very few play out of an already tiny PvP population.
The only builds I've ever asked to be hard banned before are Disenchanter Chrono post rework, and CI Mirage. There's a threshold which goes beyond simply being over powered and over performing to being outright mandatory to perform which is where immediate bans are warranted and Firebrand+Necro have both crossed it.
>
> Guess what? At no point has PvP had fair representation of all the classes. And that's in 5v5 where there's more room to balance.
I'm not asking for permanent changed to skills, or traits, or utilities. Those balance choices are going to play out based on Conquest MAT and Ranked performance. But while 2v2s are active, in a very specific time and place and game mode, Firebrand and Necro should be banned for the health of the game.
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> @"Zietlogik.6208" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Kuma.1503" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon has banned cards.
> > >
> > > I agree that FB Necro comps are too strong, but this is misinformation. It's very, very hard to get a character banned in fighting games. Bayonetta was never banned, but you could easily argue that she should have been. She single handedly lead to the most controversial grand finals tournament at the end of smash 4's lifespan. If you haven't seen the infamous moment, I suggest looking up Lima vs Captain Zac.
> > >
> > > Meta Knight came *very close* to being banned in Brawl, there was a mass effort from the biggest tourney organizers to ban him at all tournaments. Unfortunately, one guy decided not to ban him at his tourney. He just so happened to be the owner of Apex, the biggest smash tourney world wide. Due to this one guy, the entire attempt to ban MK fell apart because people would rather play by the rules set by the biggest stage.
> > >
> > > As for why it's so hard to get characters banned in fighting games. People invest countless hours into those characters. Namely, the big competetors like Zero, Nario, Dabuz, M2k, Leffen, Mango, ect. Players like these have huge influences in the community, they're who spectators come to see. If you ban a top tier like MK, you effectively ban these players from the tournament. It would be like going to a sports game only to realize that all of your favorite players have been replaced.
> > >
> > > tl;dr, banning characters is hard. Attempts to do so almost always fail in fighting games, likely will here too.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Bayonetta was banned in multiple locals until she was appropriately nerfed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Metaknight was absolutely banned in North America.
> >
> > https://www.ign.com/articles/2011/10/03/meta-knight-banned-from-super-smash-bros-brawl
> >
> > Cloud was banned from Doubles.
> >
> > https://www.ssbwiki.com/Cloud_(SSB4)#Banned_in_Doubles
> >
> > Hero was banned in Australia and France
> >
> > https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl
> >
> >
> > I understand that players invest countless hours into their favorite characters and classes. I do not suggest banning Necromancer and Firebrand recklessly and with no thought. I care about Necromancer and Firebrand mains. I want metas where each and every one of the top 10 is occupied by a different top tier player maining a different class, and across all tiers all classes are viable.
> >
> > I do not recklessly call for bans or nerfs.
> >
> > Necromancer and Firebrand deserve to be banned from 2v2.
>
> you cherry picked those instances well, but you miss out on the vital piece of information that they are only banned in specific places, during specific times, temporarily. They were never globally banned...ever, each individual TO chose which rule set and which rules to enforce within those rulesets. Your references are the same as me saying "well i ban FB from playing at my house" therefore its banned, case closed, which obviously doesn't amount to anything, locals and tiny areas without any tournaments running beyond a C tier mean nothing, its like custom arenas in that regard.
Nah when NINTENDO OF FRANCE hard bans something it's in an entirely different league than if michaeell123 bans something from his personal 2v2 and 1v1 streams.
-
> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:
> They should have banned mirage when everyone and their mother was playing it, and we were begging for it to be balanced.
>
> Should have banned spellbreaker when it was overpowered.
>
> Should have banned scourge and FB when it dominated the first half of the PoF lifespan.
>
> Y'all wanted to sit and defend your classes for ages. You made your bed, now lie in it. I don't feel remotely sorry for anyone after these forums were playing deaf for years when it actually mattered.
I asked for Chronomancer post Phantasm rework back when it was 2 shotting people with Phantasmal Disenchanter and Defender to be hard banned. I've called for Condition Mirage and Mesmer nerfs in general for literally years now after the Phantasm rework.
And as for Spellbreaker, Scourge, and Firebrand while I've called for nerfs to specific areas I've never suggested they get banned because I've never felt like an achievement like top 10 was impossible for other builds the way it is now, because as strong as they were we lived in an environment where Mirage/Holosmith/Druid(At the time)/Herald/Weaver/Thief in General had competitive builds.
So you can keep your accusations of hypocrisy to yourself.
-
Honestly the loss of Deadshot+Wanderer amulets and all the expertise boosting runes is probably hurting Mirage more than the loss of the second dodge roll. That right there was an effective 50% damage nerf specifically to mirage since Mirage was really the only build using those.
-
> @"Obtena.7952" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > The only thing stopping banning classes is the developer's own will. They can literally do whatever they see fit.
> >
> Their is a difference here. The ability to do whatever they want isn't what matters. The DISCRETION to do something IS. There will NEVER be a ban on classes, WHATEVER motivates it. It's one of the most nonsensical requests I've seen yet.
Arenanet saw fit to hard disable Chaotic Interruption in PvP when CI Mirage was running absolutely rough shot over the game mode, and it absolutely deserved that.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81789/we-need-emergency-nerfs
-
> @"claytonmorby.3751" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"claytonmorby.3751" said:
> > > Imagine wanting to ban/balance around 2v2
> >
> > Never asked for balanced to be based on 2v2.
> >
> > Cards get frequently limited and hard banned in Trading Card Games. Fighters frequently get banned in Fighting Games. Why not ban certain classes in certain PvP game modes when they've reached the status of mandatory?
>
> Nice false equivalence. This isn't a highly competitive game. It's an MMO. Other MMOs like WoW concede certain PvP modes and focus on balancing for their "main" mode.
>
> And the title of this post asks for a ban in 2v2s. That's balancing around 2v2s.
If necromancer and firebrand get banned for 2v2s, when ranked Conquest comes back there are no changes to their skills and abilities in a game mode where balancing is appropriate.
-
> @"Kuma.1503" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon has banned cards.
>
> I agree that FB Necro comps are too strong, but this is misinformation. It's very, very hard to get a character banned in fighting games. Bayonetta was never banned, but you could easily argue that she should have been. She single handedly lead to the most controversial grand finals tournament at the end of smash 4's lifespan. If you haven't seen the infamous moment, I suggest looking up Lima vs Captain Zac.
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> Meta Knight came *very close* to being banned in Brawl, there was a mass effort from the biggest tourney organizers to ban him at all tournaments. Unfortunately, one guy decided not to ban him at his tourney. He just so happened to be the owner of Apex, the biggest smash tourney world wide. Due to this one guy, the entire attempt to ban MK fell apart because people would rather play by the rules set by the biggest stage.
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> As for why it's so hard to get characters banned in fighting games. People invest countless hours into those characters. Namely, the big competetors like Zero, Nario, Dabuz, M2k, Leffen, Mango, ect. Players like these have huge influences in the community, they're who spectators come to see. If you ban a top tier like MK, you effectively ban these players from the tournament. It would be like going to a sports game only to realize that all of your favorite players have been replaced.
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> tl;dr, banning characters is hard. Attempts to do so almost always fail in fighting games, likely will here too.
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Bayonetta was banned in multiple locals until she was appropriately nerfed.
Metaknight was absolutely banned in North America.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2011/10/03/meta-knight-banned-from-super-smash-bros-brawl
Cloud was banned from Doubles.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Cloud_(SSB4)#Banned_in_Doubles
Hero was banned in Australia and France
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl
I understand that players invest countless hours into their favorite characters and classes. I do not suggest banning Necromancer and Firebrand recklessly and with no thought. I care about Necromancer and Firebrand mains. I want metas where each and every one of the top 10 is occupied by a different top tier player maining a different class, and across all tiers all classes are viable.
I do not recklessly call for bans or nerfs.
Necromancer and Firebrand deserve to be banned from 2v2.
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> @"claytonmorby.3751" said:
> Imagine wanting to ban/balance around 2v2
Never asked for balanced to be based on 2v2.
Cards get frequently limited and hard banned in Trading Card Games. Fighters frequently get banned in Fighting Games. Why not ban certain classes in certain PvP game modes when they've reached the status of mandatory?
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> @"Spellhunter.9675" said:
> There is at least 1 setup in 2v2 hardcounter both necro and fb. But as I can see most people can't even use their brains to figure this out. So guys, wait a couple of days and metabattle will tell you how to play the game.
The only thing I have seen come close to Firebrand+Necro is Firebrand+Condi Herald. And Condi herald will be eons less powerful without the firebrand.
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> @"Revolution.5409" said:
> This will not solve the FB problem in other game modes, this specialization must be balanced.
Never said it would. Firebrand and necro should be balanced on their own merits based on conquest. But in the meantime, in 2v2s they should be hard banned.
I mean seriously, can a better solution be theory crafted, tested, and implemented by the developers in the one month time frame the game mode is active? No. Hence why I call for the need for drastic measures like hard bans. This situation is the reason why things would immediately be banned in other, more well managed games like the examples I listed.
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> @"Axl.8924" said:
> Your asking for a entire class to become exempt from SPVP ranked
Yes, at least for 2v2s.
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> @"Sunshine.5014" said:
> Guys, don't ask for a ban so soon. Leave ANet at least 2 weeks to fix. No software company (beside like... Google) can fix, test, release that fast. Especially since this is not a simple fix.
2v2s literally only last for a month. You're asking for 50% of 2v2s to be ruined for most players.
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> @"Axl.8924" said:
> That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
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> Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
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> banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.
One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.
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> @"Axl.8924" said:
> No because thats a entire class. You cannot ban a entire class, that would be like saying: Lets ban all mesmers because mirage is annoying, or lets ban thief because they are annoying.
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> Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon has banned cards.
The only thing stopping banning classes is the developer's own will. They can literally do whatever they see fit.
It's more like if the situation was "Ban Mesmer because it's either play mesmer or lose to mesmer." or "Ban thief because it's either play thief or lose to thief." And if mesmer/mirage thief/daredevil/deadeye were in that state they should have been immediately been banned from ranked play until fixes were launched, just like Firebrand and Necro are now. Firebrand and Necro aren't "annoying". They're **everything** now. The only thing remotely close is Condition Revenant and that's nowhere near as powerful on it's own without a Firebrand up it's ass.
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People have been wanting ranked 2v2s since this game was initially released. It has been eight years asking for an arena type mode. And now that we've finally gotten it 2v2's in the form of a miniseason comes with a balance patch that has left Firebrand and Necromancer in particular universally agreed to be over tuned.
Now obviously, balance is always going to based on a mix of Ranked and MAT performance. The main game mode is conquest and it always will be. I'm not asking for nerfs for builds in game modes that aren't the main mode. But while we wait for the balance team to observe and balance for conquest, can we get an emergency disable on Firebrand and Necromancer in ranked? People have wanted 2v2s for so long it'd be immensely disappointing for the developer team to finally release it only for the only viable team to be Firebrand+Necro.
Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon have banned cards.
Can we get an emergency disable on Firebrand and Necromancer in 2v2s for the love of god?
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Obsidian Flesh never needed this nerf tbh. Like it's strong, but it had an appropriately long cooldown.
How to nerf necro (from a necro)
in Player vs. Player
Posted
I think you're probably going to see; Faster degeneration of normal Death Shroud, lowering the inherent -50% incoming damage and condi damage from Death Shroud, Lowering Signet of Undeath and Eternal Life's Life Force generation. Probably some other stuff too. Some combination of those sorts of changes. Lich Form almost certainly deserves a damage nerf. But the highest priority is tuning Death Shroud to be more appropriately balanced at this damage level.
Necromancer is currently in a position where it if it's threatened it can heal, go into death shroud, and survive for a long long stretch of time, and then once it's death shroud has run out it's healing skill is back up and by the time it's threatened it's regenerated more than enough life force to dip back into shroud again outside of truly insane incoming pressure. It was already strong and balanced pre-patch when everyone was doing 50-100% more damage than they currently are. It reminds me of rework scrapper in terms of creating fights were literally no progress is made and it's just an endless stall.