mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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> @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > What do you guys think about this?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. I dont agree with this statement because its not entirely true. The side with fewer numbers can res multiple times should the side with higher numbers have people who go down or die more easily / often so i feel like this statement is a bit subjective.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Learning is a part of the process once again though im not so sure about this statement if your team is going down cause your comp is not as good as the enemy teams it does not mean your teammates are purpose feeding some times you are just mechanically out matched and need to try a different strategy but not everyone catches onto the idea that there might be another option unless someone tells them to try something different.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. condition builds become super meta... imagine having condis throwing on you and instead of getting a second chance with down state you just die instantly feeels bad man.
> > > > > > > 4. imo Zerker and assassin ammy shouldn't be options in spvp in general. This also changes nothing with your previous statements techncially speaking the side with the better team or higher numbers in a fight will still heavily favor that side.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5. It wont though it will still be the same. Dont be fooled into the idea that this changes much.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 6. I wouldnt mind no down state events or some maps having no down state like if team death or other game modes were supported but in the standard capture and hold i dont really see the point.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Um... if you have to add a condition to make a statement true, it's probably because it isn't true to begin with. Rezzing _heavily_ favors the side with more numbers, period. Just because the side with less numbers _can_ potentially rez more often is irrelevant because I could counter with: the side with more numbers _can_ potentially rez more often than the side with less. If you just look at how the rez mechanic works, the side with more players will ALWAYS have an advantage. There are no exceptions to this, currently.
> > > > > 1. But you added a condition to make your statement true. Thats why i said it was subjective to start with.
> > > > > Infact one could say that the side with the numbers advantage period (regardless if downstate is included or not) has the advantage so whats the point of even bothering to make this claim when the side with the numbers advantage has the advantage before down state would even be applied. like what.... sorry but no... you were already at the disadvantage to start with removing downstate wont change that.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2. The problem is... there's no way to win a match if your PUGs are mechanically out-matched. You, as a single player, _cannot_ carry a game alone if your PUGs are completely incompetent. There are no "different strategies" you could try when Conquest revolves around winning fights/snowballing/pushing your advantage with good rotations.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. That depends if you can win smaller fights2v2 or 3v3 etc but not and 4v4 or 5v5 match ups then obviously then the obvious solution would be to try and force the enemy team to split up and take the advantage that way. Not every team comp thats good in bigger fights is just as good when you split them up into smaller fights.
> > > > > There are different strategies depending on the map, your team and its comp, and their team and its comp. If you only see things as one line and one line own where "well they have x and y gg cant win" then you shouldnt be in pvp to start with. Conquest and anet do not often support different strats but its up to you to take the risk on trying them. IF plan A is not working and is failing over and over again why do you keep trying plan A. Thats common sense that you try something else.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. No, condition builds wouldn't become any more meta than power builds would. In fact, you'd have more time to react and save yourself vs. burst conditions builds than you would against burst power builds. Imagine being at 7k HP and having to choose between getting hit by a Mirage's condi bomb or a Warrior's Eviscerate. Which one would you pick? In this scenario, you'd die faster from the Eviscerate.
> > > > > 3. I dont think it matters you are not in the advatnage here if i have to chose between one of them but cant opt to avoid both then it does not matter you are still dead. Leading back to my first comment .... it dont matter cause the advantage here was already lost before we would even get to a down state.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 5. It will change a lot. Currently, it doesn't matter how many people you down, a single support Firebrand rotating in to rez means you've lost that fight. It's almost impossible to outcleave that build as a single player. Preventing them from rezzing and instead forcing them to support their allies that are still _alive_ would result in a completely different dynamic and would help reduce the impact builds like Firebrand/pre-nerf Blood Scourge have on the match. It's no wonder builds that have had the ability to _consistently_ guarantee (or almost guarantee) rezzes have been _consistently_ meta.
> > > > > 4. Then that means firebrand is over-performing obviously which we all know to be true. Thats not a down state problem thats a firebrand problem.
> > > > > In the case of scourge (why is the scourge alive even when you know it should be the first target) if your team opted to kill other targets first thats a your team problem.
> > > > > IF a firebrand is with the scourge then we have already confirmed thats a firebrand problem.
> > > > > Do not think that its fair to say no down stat should be a thing just because a firebrand always comes alone and ruins your attempts to finish off a player. Thats directly calling out that the problem is a firebrand issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. If anything take the creative approach and ask for more skills that can directly finish off players The game imo needs more skills like this considering most people dont commit to using the "stomp" action anymore (unless mirage) and would rather just cleave a downed player to death because its faster and you can ideally ignore the interrupt from the downed player.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 6. These changes would help slow down the pace of the game. It would give individual players a much easier time winning matches _if_ they play well. It would also reduce the snowball effect derived from the highly mobile + high damage meta builds.
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. If anything it would speed up the game players die faster, teams get more points per kill. Speeds up snowball effect via the previous 2 statements pluse the fact that people cant delay an enemy from de capping or capping a point by being in down state on that point as they die.
> > > > > Lastly this is a team game mode not a individual player game mode. While i would love to see other supported game modes you have to accept this as a fact. You cant always carry your team deal with it. there are 9 reasons why you cant individually decide the outcome of a match and each of them is a player in the match with you.
> > > > > If you want individual wins to satisfy yourself ask anet for a 1v1 mode or play 2v2 etc.
> > > >
> > > > 1. It is literally not subjective at all. 3 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 4 people. That's pretty objective. The only time this would ever be up for debate (thus becoming subjective), are when you start adding in conditions that effect rez speed. Even then, with 10% rez speed modifiers, you'd need 10 players to compensate for the speed you'd gain from simply having an additional person.
> > >
> > > The advantage was never yours to start with down sate has nothing to do with this lol
> > > if you are 2v5 your advantage is already gone regardless of down state why are you putting the illusion that down state is more of an advantage to the side with the bigger number when they already had the advantage from the start this is what i dont understand.
> >
> > Let me put it into a more understandable version.
> >
> > In a 2v4, the side with only 2 is straight up at a disadvantage. That's just numbers. But in a world without downstate, it's a lot more likely that if the side with 2 are very skilled and have excellent use of focus, burst, as well as kiting and positioning they can win the 2v4 if they out skill their opponents to a high degree. However, downstate makes it so that in a 2v4 regardless of kiting and positioning, skilled use of terrain, and burst, the side with 4 are unlikely to lose, because if any one of their players die they have three players to rez them up. And if two of them are rezing, unless you have 100% poison up time on the downed body and a ton of cleave you can't even safe stomp fast enough to stop their rez.
>
>
> In a world of good matchmaking 2 teams should never be matched together where 2 people have such a skill gap over the 4 people that they can do that commonly. If so then well gg because that game is a wash out.
I, too, wish GW2's PvP had a stable 50,000 active players or more. This is reality. And in real games there are usually strong links in a team and there are weak links in a team.
You've largely completely missed the point of what I was trying to say so I'm going to try again.
1 . Downstate turns close fights into massive all or nothing blowouts.
Take for example A standard opening game. I'm a side noder. I'm capping home. Home is uncontested. Four of my team faces four of the enemy team in mid. Both teams score two downstates at more or less the same time. One team manages to cleave out one of my teammates and rallies their two guys. They then cleave out the remaining guy. Now the encounter is 4v2. Even if I rotate into the fight now it'd just be 4v3 and I'm unlikely to make a difference. The 3 of us will be eaten alive, especially as the person on home will rotate in making it a 5v3, which again because of downstate it is nearly impossible for any of us to secure any kill before a rez happens no matter how well we play and how low they are on health and cooldowns.
Now I have few options. I can either try to regroup with my team at home when they come off respawn, and I'll inevitably have to deal with 3-4 of the enemy team snowballing onto home all at once. Or I can go for a far push, hopefully sneakily decap their node uncontested and hope the way way the enemy team has rotated leaves them off kilter and allows my team to come back. I'm also resigning my team to die.
Without downstate, when the two allies and the two enemies ran out of health they didn't just go into downstate, they died. Mid is now 2v2 instead of 4v2. The close fight remains a close fight and it has done so in a way that is overall fair. Now rather than being left with an unsalvagable blowout in mid, me and the enemy side noder rotating into mid is a lot more significant as both of us can swing the entire mid fight depending on who is more skilled between us.
Heck even if the mid fight plays out in a similar way and my team scores 2 kills but all four of the fighters going mid die, that has significant ramifications on me due to the fact that the fight that just happened wasn't an all or nothing blow out. Now whatever snowball I have to deal with at home is much more manageable, if they even feel bold enough to try with only 3 teammates alive and four coming off respawn.
The end result could be a crazy slug fest where one by one each teammates die in this team fight leaving a close exciting 1v1 as all the remaining teammates fell in battle. And this makes sense because without downstate this fight was very close the entire time. And it would be an amazing feeling to be that last player standing, the guy who survived it all and secured the node for your team. And it would still be fair.
Instead we have a system where as soon as one team won one rally race, it was just a matter of mopping up the remaining 3 players with little difficulty.
2. Downstate compresses skill gap.
Again imagine a realistic scenario in the same game. My entire team wiped mid. I have resolved to stay home, defend it if need to, and regroup with my respawning teammates. While defending home I get rushed 2v1. I massively outskill at least one of the two players who have chosen to rush me at home. We end up in a protracted fight where I repeatedly down the weak link of this 2v1. However he is able to be easily rezed by his teammate and without cleave I cannot secure the kill even with safe stomp and the enemy that is doing the rezing is good enough to pop stability each time so I cannot just interrupt him, cleave him, and scare him away from attempting the rez.
The end result; even though I outskill the opponent, aside from stalling and creating a numbers advantage elsewhere on the map, I'm still in an overall unwinnable situation. The bad player who has no business trying to engage me in a fight due to the difference in skill is cushioned from failure and death because he has a numbers advantage.
Without downstate; When I engage in the 1v2 rather than the enemy being repeatedly rezed they die outright the first time. Now I'm in a potentially interesting 1v1 and if I win that I've created a very important swing due to my skill and my capacity to handle these two opponents.
And you can extrapolate this up and up. If there's an extremely skilled player, downstate reduced their capacity to swing the game in his favor.
3. Downstate can feel extremely unfair.
Let me bring you back to 1997 at my local arcade. This is a very, very small town so we still had a Street Fighter 2 cabinet as one of the most popular machines despite the game being close to 6 years old at the time. Now in Street Fighter 2 there is a hidden "Stun Meter." When this stun meter fills up due to enough damage to this stun meter, they are stunned. All attacks cause some damage to the stun meter, and some of them do a lot more damage by design. You probably know exactly what this looks like either due to playing Street Fighter 2 or through pop culture osmosis.
At my arcade and I know _many others_ there was always a house rule; You don't hit the stunned opponent. Now people were fine with hit stun and combos. But there was something that felt fundamentally wrong about the actual stun / dizzy mechanic. A losing player, who is already been on the receiving end of damage, being made literally helpless felt unfair. It felt dirty. And so a lot of local places straight up decided "Sorry but we don't play that way around here."
Downstate when forced into an outnumbered fight feels unfair. This enemy team already has an advantage, whether it is a roamer +1ing a fight or a weak link on your team being focused down a split second before you can focus down their weaklink. Because of the way it gives a side with the momentary advantage a BIGGER advantage than they already get just by having the bigger side, it feels fundamentally unfair to go up against. Because again like point 1 states, Downstate turns very close fights into massive All or Nothing blowouts.
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> @"TorQ.7041" said:
> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:
> > > @"KrHome.1920" said:
> > > > @"Zenix.6198" said:
> > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > > > > Or better yet:
> > > > > Chop down Condition damage in general.
> > > > > It should not be able to burst.
> > > >
> > > > That hasn't been true since HoT really.
> > > > Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
> > > > So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
> > >You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.
> > > So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.
> > >
> >
> > Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.
> >
> > There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.
> >
> > Just like mortrialus said:
> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.
> >
> > Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.
> >
> >
> >
>
> While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.
>
> Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.
>
> (I am ok with how mesmer currently is,this is for reference) For example you can evade a mesmer (the old build), pistol 4 and 5. You are safe right? You are not. It's clones will passively tick your hp and you will have to leave over time. Is there smart play involved? You dodged his skills right?
Here's the thing though. So let's flip the script here a little. So let's say you're fighting a Holosmith. You avoid Photon Forge 3, the 5, and the 4. Are you safe? No. Because you still have to contend with unlimited Photon auto attacks and nearly unlimited Photon Forge 2s.
Damage is an unlimited resource in GW2, this applies to both Power damage and Condition Damage. There's no mana system that prevents you from ever straight up 100% running out of attacks.
There might be a lot of stuff about mesmer's kit that does need ironing out and being made more fair to combat. For example condition clone autos. But condition staff is balanced around having those clones. Now the game might be healthier if mesmer clones didn't do condition damage, but that damage would still need to be rolled into the main mesmer's damage to balance it out.
Not that anyone asked but here's a list of DPS numbers on both auto attack chains on meta builds as well as a handful of relevant combos. On these assume that
1. Meta build. This means that for thieves, guardian and herald we're looking at Maurader amulet. For Warriors, Rangers, Soulbeasts, Reapers and Holosmiths we're looking at Demolisher amulet. For Weavers we're on sage with the meta build. For core Necromancer and Condition Guardian we're on Carrion. For Mirage we're on Deadshot. For Power mesmer we're on Berserker's.
2. For most of these they are done on the Medium Target Golem. For a handful that have a long ramp up such as Condition Mirage and Weaver I also double tested it against the Indestructible golems to see how it compares with full ramp up potential and am posting the higher number.
These are the DPS numbers using arc dps, with some slight amount of noise as all these need to leave combat after finishing the kill or waiting for the combat break after getting distance from the Indestructible golem.
Engineer Rifle: 1479
Photon Forge Auto: 2137
Photon Forge Auto with Quickness: 3328
Warrior Greatsword Auto Attacks: 2272
Warrior Arcing Slice into Greatsword Autos: 3158
Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Hundred Blades Arcing Slice ASAP combo: 5157
Spellbreaker Dagger: 2225
Warrior Rifle: 1305
Herald Sword: 2223
Herald Phase Traversal into Sword 4+5 then Auto Attacks: 5391
Daredevil Sword: 2523
Daredevil Pistol Whip Spam: 2638
Daredevil Dagger: 2483
Daredevil Shortbow: 3433 with bounces (I think its safe to assume 1144 without bounces, golem positioning makes this kind of impossible to test)
Daredevil Cluster Bomb spam: 2706
Deadeye Kneeling Rifle: 1937
Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Three Round Burst Spam: 7162
Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Spotter's Shot: 5095
Condition Mirage Axe: 1492
Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1684 3 Clones with bounces (Safe to assume ~850 without bounces)
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465
Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones with ambush spam: 1164
Condition Mirage Pistol 4 into Staff Ambush spam: 2452
Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170
Power Mesmer Sword Berserker's Amulet: 2190
Power Mesmer Berserker's Blurred Frenzy into Sword Autos: 3513
Power Mesmer full burst combo (LOL): 16,400
Ranger Greatsword: 1774
Ranger Greatsword with Rock Gazelle: 2857
Ranger Quickening Zephyr into Maul into greatsword autos with Rock Gazelle: 4452
Axe Autos No Bounce: 1626
Axe Autos no bounce with Rock Gazelle: 2283
Ranger Longbow max range autos: 1464
Ranger Longbow max range Rapid Fire into autos: 1885
Ranger Longbow Max Range Rapid Fire into autos with Smokescale: 2615
Sic Em Soulbeast Merged Quickening Zephyr Rapid Fire into autos: 5232
Fire Weaver Sword Autos in Fire Attunement: 1712
Fire Weaver Fire Attunement Glyph of Elemental Power and Primordial Stance: 2842
Fresh Air Weaver Scepter Autos in Air Attunement: 1661
Guardian Greatsword: 2321
Guardian F1 Judges Intervention Whirling Wrath into Greatsword Autos: 3211
Guardian Sword: 2340
Guardian Power Scepter: 2151
Condition Guardian F1>Torch4>auto: 2481
Dragonhunter Longbow: 1565
Power Reaper Axe: 1519
Power Reaper Build 10 vuln with auto then Ghastly Claws: 2642
Power Reaper Greatsword: 2715
Reaper's Shroud Reaper's Onslaught Autos: 4436
Reaper's Shroud Soul Spiral into Autos: 5822
Core Necromancer Scepter: 899
Condi Core Necromancer Death Shroud: 1803
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> @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > What do you guys think about this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. I dont agree with this statement because its not entirely true. The side with fewer numbers can res multiple times should the side with higher numbers have people who go down or die more easily / often so i feel like this statement is a bit subjective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Learning is a part of the process once again though im not so sure about this statement if your team is going down cause your comp is not as good as the enemy teams it does not mean your teammates are purpose feeding some times you are just mechanically out matched and need to try a different strategy but not everyone catches onto the idea that there might be another option unless someone tells them to try something different.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. condition builds become super meta... imagine having condis throwing on you and instead of getting a second chance with down state you just die instantly feeels bad man.
> > > > > 4. imo Zerker and assassin ammy shouldn't be options in spvp in general. This also changes nothing with your previous statements techncially speaking the side with the better team or higher numbers in a fight will still heavily favor that side.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage.
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. It wont though it will still be the same. Dont be fooled into the idea that this changes much.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down.
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. I wouldnt mind no down state events or some maps having no down state like if team death or other game modes were supported but in the standard capture and hold i dont really see the point.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. Um... if you have to add a condition to make a statement true, it's probably because it isn't true to begin with. Rezzing _heavily_ favors the side with more numbers, period. Just because the side with less numbers _can_ potentially rez more often is irrelevant because I could counter with: the side with more numbers _can_ potentially rez more often than the side with less. If you just look at how the rez mechanic works, the side with more players will ALWAYS have an advantage. There are no exceptions to this, currently.
> > > 1. But you added a condition to make your statement true. Thats why i said it was subjective to start with.
> > > Infact one could say that the side with the numbers advantage period (regardless if downstate is included or not) has the advantage so whats the point of even bothering to make this claim when the side with the numbers advantage has the advantage before down state would even be applied. like what.... sorry but no... you were already at the disadvantage to start with removing downstate wont change that.
> > >
> > > > 2. The problem is... there's no way to win a match if your PUGs are mechanically out-matched. You, as a single player, _cannot_ carry a game alone if your PUGs are completely incompetent. There are no "different strategies" you could try when Conquest revolves around winning fights/snowballing/pushing your advantage with good rotations.
> > >
> > > 2. That depends if you can win smaller fights2v2 or 3v3 etc but not and 4v4 or 5v5 match ups then obviously then the obvious solution would be to try and force the enemy team to split up and take the advantage that way. Not every team comp thats good in bigger fights is just as good when you split them up into smaller fights.
> > > There are different strategies depending on the map, your team and its comp, and their team and its comp. If you only see things as one line and one line own where "well they have x and y gg cant win" then you shouldnt be in pvp to start with. Conquest and anet do not often support different strats but its up to you to take the risk on trying them. IF plan A is not working and is failing over and over again why do you keep trying plan A. Thats common sense that you try something else.
> > >
> > > > 3. No, condition builds wouldn't become any more meta than power builds would. In fact, you'd have more time to react and save yourself vs. burst conditions builds than you would against burst power builds. Imagine being at 7k HP and having to choose between getting hit by a Mirage's condi bomb or a Warrior's Eviscerate. Which one would you pick? In this scenario, you'd die faster from the Eviscerate.
> > > 3. I dont think it matters you are not in the advatnage here if i have to chose between one of them but cant opt to avoid both then it does not matter you are still dead. Leading back to my first comment .... it dont matter cause the advantage here was already lost before we would even get to a down state.
> > >
> > > > 5. It will change a lot. Currently, it doesn't matter how many people you down, a single support Firebrand rotating in to rez means you've lost that fight. It's almost impossible to outcleave that build as a single player. Preventing them from rezzing and instead forcing them to support their allies that are still _alive_ would result in a completely different dynamic and would help reduce the impact builds like Firebrand/pre-nerf Blood Scourge have on the match. It's no wonder builds that have had the ability to _consistently_ guarantee (or almost guarantee) rezzes have been _consistently_ meta.
> > > 4. Then that means firebrand is over-performing obviously which we all know to be true. Thats not a down state problem thats a firebrand problem.
> > > In the case of scourge (why is the scourge alive even when you know it should be the first target) if your team opted to kill other targets first thats a your team problem.
> > > IF a firebrand is with the scourge then we have already confirmed thats a firebrand problem.
> > > Do not think that its fair to say no down stat should be a thing just because a firebrand always comes alone and ruins your attempts to finish off a player. Thats directly calling out that the problem is a firebrand issue.
> > >
> > > 5. If anything take the creative approach and ask for more skills that can directly finish off players The game imo needs more skills like this considering most people dont commit to using the "stomp" action anymore (unless mirage) and would rather just cleave a downed player to death because its faster and you can ideally ignore the interrupt from the downed player.
> > >
> > > > 6. These changes would help slow down the pace of the game. It would give individual players a much easier time winning matches _if_ they play well. It would also reduce the snowball effect derived from the highly mobile + high damage meta builds.
> > >
> > > 6. If anything it would speed up the game players die faster, teams get more points per kill. Speeds up snowball effect via the previous 2 statements pluse the fact that people cant delay an enemy from de capping or capping a point by being in down state on that point as they die.
> > > Lastly this is a team game mode not a individual player game mode. While i would love to see other supported game modes you have to accept this as a fact. You cant always carry your team deal with it. there are 9 reasons why you cant individually decide the outcome of a match and each of them is a player in the match with you.
> > > If you want individual wins to satisfy yourself ask anet for a 1v1 mode or play 2v2 etc.
> >
> > 1. It is literally not subjective at all. 3 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 4 people. That's pretty objective. The only time this would ever be up for debate (thus becoming subjective), are when you start adding in conditions that effect rez speed. Even then, with 10% rez speed modifiers, you'd need 10 players to compensate for the speed you'd gain from simply having an additional person.
>
> The advantage was never yours to start with down sate has nothing to do with this lol
> if you are 2v5 your advantage is already gone regardless of down state why are you putting the illusion that down state is more of an advantage to the side with the bigger number when they already had the advantage from the start this is what i dont understand.
Let me put it into a more understandable version.
In a 2v4, the side with only 2 is straight up at a disadvantage. That's just numbers. But in a world without downstate, it's a lot more likely that if the side with 2 are very skilled and have excellent use of focus, burst, as well as kiting and positioning they can win the 2v4 if they out skill their opponents to a high degree. However, downstate makes it so that in a 2v4 regardless of kiting and positioning, skilled use of terrain, and burst, the side with 4 are unlikely to lose, because if any one of their players die they have three players to rez them up. And if two of them are rezing, unless you have 100% poison up time on the downed body and a ton of cleave you can't even safe stomp fast enough to stop their rez.
Downstate takes a disadvantageous but theoretically winnable fight and turns it into an _impossible_ fight.
-
It would be interesting to see a No Downstate season.
I will say that having participated in the WvW No Down State week a little bit and done a lot of 1v1s and 1vX during that time, holy moly does GW2's combat feel significantly more snappy and fun without downstate. It almost feels like cheating, seeing people die when they are killed. And to see your capacity to completely win outnumbered fights outright skyrocket is really powerful feeling.
I do think there is some reason to have a resurrection mechanic of some sort. I like the idea of Signet of Mercy and Undeath, and Glyph of Renewal and Illusion of Life. Paladins, druids being able to resurrect their allies from the dead is a huge part of those professions flavors and part of fantasy RPGs. I think GW2 might have been better served long run if, instead of downstate players died when they killed. And teammates have a 10 second window to use a Resurrect skill on their body before their body rots into a skeleton and they can't be resurrected at all and have to wait on the manual respawn timer. To me it makes certain professions and skills feel really special and everyone being able to revive everyone has never felt "right" to me.
On the other end of the spectrum the most exciting fights I've ever had involve extremely down to the wire Downstate Races. These are really rare though. I do also really relish the opportunity to rot a player for as long as possible off node as I've secured a kill. This is fairly common. It's no joke one of my favorite things to do, especially if they make the mistake of trying to bandage and I can let them get up to 99% and then tap them and force them to bleed out that much longer. I like I think the initial developers wanted you to feel really badass when you use a Finisher. Like "Yeah that's my finishing move and you have to watch get schrecked" but rotting a helpless opponent is immensely more satisfying.
Overall I'm kind of neutral towards it all things considered.
-
> @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > @"Zenix.6198" said:
> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > > Or better yet:
> > > Chop down Condition damage in general.
> > > It should not be able to burst.
> >
> > That hasn't been true since HoT really.
> > Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.
> > So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.
> > And tbh ....who really cares what the kind of "type" the damage is.
> > If you get hit for 10k powerdamage within 3 seconds or 10k condition damage over the same timespan....does it really matter?
> > Sure, there is a dedicated stat that lowers powerdamage....but condition damage can be removed retrospectively after being hit by it. Its all the same really.
> >
> > But don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing damage IN GENERAL.
>
> If all types of damage burst, why not make all damage be power?
> If the game has two types of damage, they should effectively be different.
>
Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.
Do you really think a system where condition damage gets punished for playing better and landing more attack is going to be better than what we have?
-
> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > To put it in very simple terms...**stealth in Gw2 is just broken**, the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements found in all other well known MMOs out there sporting the same stealth concept. To cite few examples :
> > >
> > > 1) World of Warcraft
> > > https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stealth
> > >
> > > 2) Final fantasy : A realm reborn
> > > https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Hide
> > >
> > > 3) Elder scroll Online
> > > https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth
> > >
> > > The main points here are :
> > > - You cannot restealth while in combat
> > > - AoE dmg reveals you
> > > - Penalties while stealthed
> > > - Easy for the enemy to detect you
> > >
> > > All the elements above are **missing** from Gw2 in their entirety, it is for this reason that I consider stealth in GW2, one of the worst implementations I have ever seen in a MMO, there is no other way to say it but I still have hope in one small corner of my heart that anet devs will address all these issues with the next balance pass..a faint hope.
> > >
> > > I have no doubt that the thief/mesmer police will come here mocking, "insulting" and with the usual L2P gibberish but..I am not worried about that, those among you who played other MMOs..know that I am right, the devs here know that I am right...whether any of this will ever be addressed.......
> > >
> > > Things like deadeye, PU one shot....should not exist in a MMO
> >
> > In all those games it's also literally permanent until you decide to end it manually or damage an opponent.
> >
> > Also in all those games are ways to re-enter stealth in combat, it's just a different spell.
> >
> > So yeah the actual rogue skill Stealth doesn't work in combat. But the skill Vanish puts them back in stealth in combat.
> >
> > Or Mage casts Invisiblity on themselves to become invisible. Or Mass Invisiblity to make them and their allies invisible. And yes, it works in combat.
> >
> > Also while I can't say for how it is in retail WoW right now, between Classic and WotLK when I played stealth was not easy to detect. Impossible if they were behind you and if the rogue was in front of you trying to attack very, very little warning. About melee range +50%.
> >
> >
> >
> > At around 19 minutes in you can see exactly what Stealth looks like and how "easy to detect". And that is consistent with stealth until I stopped playing during WotLK.
> >
> > And I know that by Legion WoW stealth lost it's movement penalty removed.
> >
> > So right from the word "go" your post is loaded with outright misinformation or hiding important facts like the fact that in at least WoW and FF14 Stealth is PERMANENT until cancelled.
>
> Dots/Posions/Bleeds , didnt allow you to restealth
They wouldn't allow you to stay restealthed, but as long as you weren't hit with another attack or didn't do another attack you could break combat with a cc, restealth and then land another stealth attack if you timed it right.
And later on they added ways for rogues to remove all dots except bleeds.
> Only in you where a Mage , where you casted ''Shields'' (Mana Shield) on yourself and the damage of Dots/Posions/Bleeds couldnt destealth you .
> But mages got a 5 min cd , Mass invisibility 2 expanions later
>
> Not damaging-Aoes-Debuffs , like warriors Reduce-Attack-Power-aoe-Shouts could destealth you
First off they need to know you're there. If you're competent on rogue that isn't happening until it's too late. Second they need to spend cooldowns like Blood Rage to get the rage needed to actual cast those shouts, and if those shouts missed which is entirely possible because they don't have a huge range that was you're one chance to do so for an entire minute.
>
> Potions of lesser detect invisibility , which gave the exact buff as Felhunter , or you could command your pet to give its buff to every team8 , while you waited in 1:30 min before the match starts .
I don't think this is accurate. Invisibility is different than stealth in World of Warcraft. I do not think this potion impacts stealth detection. Detect Invisibility is about stuff like the Ghosts that are in the entrance of Undercity or in front of Scholomance. Stealth is just stealth.
> (i used to be a Human Soul link(trasfer 30% of damage to the pet) Warlock)
> @@ Human for their Racial -See-more-easily-stealth
Again it's a three minute cooldown and they need to know you're there before hand and a smart rogue will either stay far enough away to not get seen or is rushing them before they know they'll even need to push it.
>
> If the Rogue was moving towards you , without the 50% increase movement speed cd (Sprint) , there was a 50% chance to detect him (bonus survibility if you had a mount) .
> The chance depents of the engine + if you where moving sideways (while the thief towards you) to give the engine 2-3 sec to ''proceess it'' (just like the ''culling'' in the WvWvW 2expanions ago , that you could see the enemy showing in your schreen 2000 yards away from you , rather to see him from afar) .
> As the optimazation of the engine became beter and you could see enemies from afar more faster , they implanted traits in TBC or Wrath , that stealth was more hard-to-see-them (but flying mounts where introduced in TBC for open-World-Pvp/pve , so they counter each other ?)
I don't think any of this is accurate. 50% chance to detect a rogue doesn't even make sense. It's based on proximity and cone of vision. Even the way you'd code a mechanic like that into the engine, it'd be something like increase the range at which you detect the rogue by 50% based on certain variables.
> (In Vanilia PvP from the Allaince (good guys) you didnt have a healer , bcause the Horde had Shamans (spamm removed boons / 4 sec silence / 20% chance to hit you for 40% of your hp with Windfurry + the damage vs healing was too high....
Uhhh. In Vanilla PvP your healers are Priests, Druids, and the Alliance only Paladins.
> but thank god we had Warrior => if the enemy dodged (Rogue had more chance) => they casted Overpwered (if crit=30% of Rogues hp as damage) cannot be Dodged)
>
A rogue who knows what they are doing will beat the warrior in vanilla wow. Overpower helps it from being insanely onsided in the rogues favor, but Evasion is still a brutal cooldown to have to go up against for a warrior.
And even if the rogue can't beat the warrior there's...
-
> @"otto.5684" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean..... demonstrably false.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.
> > > >
> > > > My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.
> > >
> > > That's all true.
> > >
> > > But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.
> > >
> > > This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.
> > >
> > > Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.
> > >
> > > I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.
> >
> > 1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.
>
> This is not exactly accurate. Being able to solo contest and take nodes is very useful. But this exact same build has to be able to escape if you get outnumbered. And FB cannot. And thus cannot be played as a side noder. The 1v1 potential does not mean much of you can easily get +1 and downed.\
It literally won an MAT as a 1vX side noder back in November.
-
> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean..... demonstrably false.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.
> > > >
> > > > My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.
> > >
> > > That's all true.
> > >
> > > But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.
> > >
> > > This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.
> > >
> > > Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.
> > >
> > > I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.
> >
> > 1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.
>
> Agreed.
>
> So why are you bringing up its support role in a discussion about 1v1?
Both support and the sidenode Firebrand is very strong. It was just a month ago double Firebrand won an MAT. Right now Weaver is the favored side noders both EU and NA but once that build gets nerfed it'll be the sidenode Firebrand that replaces it.
-
> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean..... demonstrably false.
> > > >
> > > > To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.
> > >
> > > Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.
> >
> > My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.
>
> That's all true.
>
> But I'm wondering what at all it has to do with the thread topic.
>
> This was in reference to its 1v1 tournament performance.
>
> Support in a 5-man composition is an entirely different matter.
>
> I would also add that FB is barely worth taking as a support right now, if it gets taken down to the level of Tempest/Druid, you won't see more variety in supports. You just won't see any supports. Period.
1v1 capacity IS important because one of the main roles in conquest is side noding which is all about a build's capacity to 1v1 and 1vX.
-
> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire
> > >
> > > I mean..... demonstrably false.
> >
> > To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.
> >
> > In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.
>
> Let me cast back deep in to the mists of time, to December 2019
>
>
Fair enough. That must be EU as I'm pretty sure both NA finalists had Firebrand. And the EU team with the Firebrand were still in striking distance of taking the win. And just a month before that double Firebrand won NA while Firebrand Double Rev won EU.
My point still stands. Firebrand is is immense dominant, the only viable support, has absolutely defined PvP during Path of Fire more so than any other build, has had plenty of top 10 representation in ranked EU and NA, and the number of wins without a Firebrand for MATs is in the single digits compared to the multiple dozens of wins.
-
> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire
>
> I mean..... demonstrably false.
To my knowledge. At least one Firebrand on the winning team is basically a given. If there were months where the winning MAT didn't have a Firebrand that I am not aware of, we are talking single digits compared to the multiple dozens of MATS where it was the case.
In any case, if it's so easily demonstrable, do it. Demonstrate it.
-
Considering how Firebrand has to my knowledge, been on literally every single winning MAT team all throughout Path Of Fire and has absolutely defined PvP this expansion even more so than Scourge at this point I don't see how anyone can say it DOESN'T need nerfs. No other support comes remotely close to what Firebrand does.
-
I got the meta achievement and never looked back.
-
Also something the OP forgot to mention is that all it takes to break combat in World of Warcraft is 6 seconds of not taking or dealing damage. And unlike GW2 proximity does not matter. So a rogue can hit you with a gouge or blind (Soft CC that break on damage), both of which are long enough to allow a rogue to break combat and restealth. And even if he has dots on him he can time it so he can still time it so he can land a very powerful stealth attack.
So imagine if instead of all the individual skills that grant stealth in short bursts, imagine if thieves and mesmers had another profession mechanic with a functional 6 second cooldown that gave PERMANENT stealth at the push of a botton. And if they don't want to wait that six seconds they have a cooldown for that. I do not think for all the sour grapes people have about stealth any one would actually find that preferable.
Again, this is what you guys are talking about as so much more healthy than GW2. Definitely a case of "grass is always greener."
-
> @"Burnfall.9573" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > To put it in very simple terms...**stealth in Gw2 is just broken**, the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements found in all other well known MMOs out there sporting the same stealth concept. To cite few examples :
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) World of Warcraft
> > > > > https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stealth
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Final fantasy : A realm reborn
> > > > > https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Hide
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) Elder scroll Online
> > > > > https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth
> > > > >
> > > > > The main points here are :
> > > > > - You cannot restealth while in combat
> > > > > - AoE dmg reveals you
> > > > > - Penalties while stealthed
> > > > > - Easy for the enemy to detect you
> > > > >
> > > > > All the elements above are **missing** from Gw2 in their entirety, it is for this reason that I consider stealth in GW2, one of the worst implementations I have ever seen in a MMO, there is no other way to say it but I still have hope in one small corner of my heart that anet devs will address all these issues with the next balance pass..a faint hope.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no doubt that the thief/mesmer police will come here mocking, "insulting" and with the usual L2P gibberish but..I am not worried about that, those among you who played other MMOs..know that I am right, the devs here know that I am right...whether any of this will ever be addressed.......
> > > > >
> > > > > Things like deadeye, PU one shot....should not exist in a MMO
> > > >
> > > > In all those games it's also literally permanent until you decide to end it manually or damage an opponent.
> > > >
> > > > Also in all those games are ways to re-enter stealth in combat, it's just a different spell.
> > > >
> > > > So yeah the actual rogue skill Stealth doesn't work in combat. But the skill Vanish puts them back in stealth in combat.
> > > >
> > > > Or Mage casts Invisiblity on themselves to become invisible. Or Mass Invisiblity to make them and their allies invisible. And yes, it works in combat.
> > > >
> > > > Also while I can't say for how it is in retail WoW right now, between Classic and WotLK when I played stealth was not easy to detect. Impossible if they were behind you and if the rogue was in front of you trying to attack very, very little warning. About melee range +50%.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At around 19 minutes in you can see exactly what Stealth looks like and how "easy to detect". And that is consistent with stealth until I stopped playing during WotLK.
> > > >
> > > > And I know that by Legion WoW stealth lost it's movement penalty removed.
> > > >
> > > > So right from the word "go" your post is loaded with outright misinformation or hiding important facts like the fact that in at least WoW and FF14 Stealth is PERMANENT until cancelled.
> > >
> > > 'To put it in very simple terms...stealth in Gw2 is just broken, **the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements** found in all other well known MMOs'
> > >
> > > That is the exact point of the Op thread
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> >
> > You and the OP are being deliberately misleading about the "competitive elements" of stealth other MMORPGs. That is the point of my response.
>
> you're missing the whole point again, The Op is stating how guild wars 2 stealth design is Toxic-unhealthy compare to other games who implements healthy competitive stealth design
>
> **Healthy Competitive Stealth Design vs Toxic Unhealthy Non-Competitive Stealth Design**
If you need to lie and make lies of ommision about the stealth mechanics in other games, maybe the other games aren't as healthy or competitive as you're making them sound.
-
> @"Burnfall.9573" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > To put it in very simple terms...**stealth in Gw2 is just broken**, the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements found in all other well known MMOs out there sporting the same stealth concept. To cite few examples :
> > >
> > > 1) World of Warcraft
> > > https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stealth
> > >
> > > 2) Final fantasy : A realm reborn
> > > https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Hide
> > >
> > > 3) Elder scroll Online
> > > https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth
> > >
> > > The main points here are :
> > > - You cannot restealth while in combat
> > > - AoE dmg reveals you
> > > - Penalties while stealthed
> > > - Easy for the enemy to detect you
> > >
> > > All the elements above are **missing** from Gw2 in their entirety, it is for this reason that I consider stealth in GW2, one of the worst implementations I have ever seen in a MMO, there is no other way to say it but I still have hope in one small corner of my heart that anet devs will address all these issues with the next balance pass..a faint hope.
> > >
> > > I have no doubt that the thief/mesmer police will come here mocking, "insulting" and with the usual L2P gibberish but..I am not worried about that, those among you who played other MMOs..know that I am right, the devs here know that I am right...whether any of this will ever be addressed.......
> > >
> > > Things like deadeye, PU one shot....should not exist in a MMO
> >
> > In all those games it's also literally permanent until you decide to end it manually or damage an opponent.
> >
> > Also in all those games are ways to re-enter stealth in combat, it's just a different spell.
> >
> > So yeah the actual rogue skill Stealth doesn't work in combat. But the skill Vanish puts them back in stealth in combat.
> >
> > Or Mage casts Invisiblity on themselves to become invisible. Or Mass Invisiblity to make them and their allies invisible. And yes, it works in combat.
> >
> > Also while I can't say for how it is in retail WoW right now, between Classic and WotLK when I played stealth was not easy to detect. Impossible if they were behind you and if the rogue was in front of you trying to attack very, very little warning. About melee range +50%.
> >
> >
> >
> > At around 19 minutes in you can see exactly what Stealth looks like and how "easy to detect". And that is consistent with stealth until I stopped playing during WotLK.
> >
> > And I know that by Legion WoW stealth lost it's movement penalty removed.
> >
> > So right from the word "go" your post is loaded with outright misinformation or hiding important facts like the fact that in at least WoW and FF14 Stealth is PERMANENT until cancelled.
>
> 'To put it in very simple terms...stealth in Gw2 is just broken, **the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements** found in all other well known MMOs'
>
> That is the exact point of the Op thread
>
> 
>
You and the OP are being deliberately misleading about the "competitive elements" of stealth other MMORPGs. That is the point of my response.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> To put it in very simple terms...**stealth in Gw2 is just broken**, the implemented design is not healthy and lacks all competitive elements found in all other well known MMOs out there sporting the same stealth concept. To cite few examples :
>
> 1) World of Warcraft
> https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stealth
>
> 2) Final fantasy : A realm reborn
> https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Hide
>
> 3) Elder scroll Online
> https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth
>
> The main points here are :
> - You cannot restealth while in combat
> - AoE dmg reveals you
> - Penalties while stealthed
> - Easy for the enemy to detect you
>
> All the elements above are **missing** from Gw2 in their entirety, it is for this reason that I consider stealth in GW2, one of the worst implementations I have ever seen in a MMO, there is no other way to say it but I still have hope in one small corner of my heart that anet devs will address all these issues with the next balance pass..a faint hope.
>
> I have no doubt that the thief/mesmer police will come here mocking, "insulting" and with the usual L2P gibberish but..I am not worried about that, those among you who played other MMOs..know that I am right, the devs here know that I am right...whether any of this will ever be addressed.......
>
> Things like deadeye, PU one shot....should not exist in a MMO
In all those games it's also literally permanent until you decide to end it manually or damage an opponent.
Also in all those games are ways to re-enter stealth in combat, it's just a different spell.
So yeah the actual rogue skill Stealth doesn't work in combat. But the skill Vanish puts them back in stealth in combat.
Or Mage casts Invisiblity on themselves to become invisible. Or Mass Invisiblity to make them and their allies invisible. And yes, it works in combat.
Also while I can't say for how it is in retail WoW right now, between Classic and WotLK when I played stealth was not easy to detect. Impossible if they were behind you and if the rogue was in front of you trying to attack very, very little warning. About melee range +50%.
At around 19 minutes in you can see exactly what Stealth looks like and how "easy to detect". And that is consistent with stealth until I stopped playing during WotLK.
And I know that by Legion WoW stealth lost it's movement penalty removed.
So right from the word "go" your post is loaded with outright misinformation or hiding important facts like the fact that in at least WoW and FF14 Stealth is PERMANENT until cancelled.
-
There are tons of great core builds that are straight up excellent or at least viable. The only ones that are kind of bad are core engineer and core ele.
People snear at core because they assume Free To Play and therefore noob, and also they tunnel vision only what's on Metabattke under the meta section.
-
> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"bluri.2653" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > > > > > > It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You keep talking about the size being really big but how big is it compared to a pretty normal balance pass like this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018
> > > > >
> > > > > He did say every skill and trait has been reviewed. Should give some idea about scope and size.
> > > >
> > > > Reviewed but not necessarily changed.
> > >
> > > He said the amount of changes will be hard to even put out on a note. Does that explain it better?
> >
> > How is writing patch notes hard? You just type them. If I was typing patch notes instead of my own post I'd be doing it right now. Think about that.
>
> Typing up the notes itself isn't the problem. For the splits alone, the list is finished. We're discussing how to present the notes a digestible way and in a way that makes it easier on us to follow feedback conversations.
Just slap me with a mondo sized pastebin dump. I want to print it out, sit down by the fireplace and read it next to the fire.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:
> > > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said:
> > > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:
> > > > > > > On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.
> > >
> > > trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.
> > > most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.
> > > this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.
> > > Making https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Preparedness wouldnt change anything I dont think.
> > > Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.
> >
> > Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.
>
> I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.
> @Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.
> I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.
> But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.
> you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.
> make cool traits man like this :
> If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )
> If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )
> I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "
![](https://i.imgur.com/A9kitCW.png"")
-
> @"bluri.2653" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > > > > It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
> > > >
> > > > You keep talking about the size being really big but how big is it compared to a pretty normal balance pass like this?
> > > >
> > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018
> > >
> > > He did say every skill and trait has been reviewed. Should give some idea about scope and size.
> >
> > Reviewed but not necessarily changed.
>
> He said the amount of changes will be hard to even put out on a note. Does that explain it better?
How is writing patch notes hard? You just type them. If I was typing patch notes instead of my own post I'd be doing it right now. Think about that.
-
> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > > It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
> >
> > You keep talking about the size being really big but how big is it compared to a pretty normal balance pass like this?
> >
> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018
>
> He did say every skill and trait has been reviewed. Should give some idea about scope and size.
Reviewed but not necessarily changed.
-
> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
You keep talking about the size being really big but how big is it compared to a pretty normal balance pass like this?
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018
-
> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
*takes breather*
Damage Per Second Numbers no one asked for but you might find fun/interesting
in Player vs. Player
Posted
Not that anyone asked but here's a list of DPS numbers on both auto attack chains on meta builds as well as a handful of relevant combos. On these assume that
1. Meta build. This means that for thieves, guardian and herald we're looking at Maurader amulet. For Warriors, Rangers, Soulbeasts, Reapers and Holosmiths we're looking at Demolisher amulet. For Weavers we're on sage with the meta build. For core Necromancer and Condition Guardian we're on Carrion. For Mirage we're on Deadshot. For Power mesmer we're on Berserker's.
2. For most of these they are done on the Medium Target Golem. For a handful that have a long ramp up such as Condition Mirage and Weaver I also double tested it against the Indestructible golems to see how it compares with full ramp up potential and am posting the higher average after a number of tests. Because of condition mesmers and their high application of torment, I did also try testing against the moving target golem. Aside from scepter spamming it's ambush attack, even with high torment condition mesmer liked more stationary targets because it hit them more reliably. Mesmer projectiles are notably slow and have fairly poor tracking.
These are the DPS numbers using arc dps, with some slight amount of noise as all these need to leave combat after finishing the kill or waiting for the combat break after getting distance from the Indestructible golem.
Generally speaking I tested the auto attacks about 5 times and averaged them, and I tested a handful of basic combos you're likely to see in game about 5 times and averaged them. I also kept it to realistic builds that are being run right now and simple combos you're likely to see.
How useful is this? To be honest I probably not very but I do love me some testing and numbers. Some builds react very differently when they're up against an actual player. For example a ranger pet might struggle to hit an actual moving player a decent portion of the time, but a necromancer against a real player is certain to have actual boons to corrupt and a lot more play making potential by debilitating and damaging their opponent.
**Elementalist**
Fire Weaver Sword Autos in Fire Attunement: 1712
Fire Weaver Fire Attunement Glyph of Elemental Power and Primordial Stance: 3279
Fresh Air Weaver Scepter Autos in Air Attunement: 1661
**Engineer**
Engineer Rifle Auto Attack: 1479
Photon Forge Auto: 2137
Photon Forge Auto with Quickness: 3328
Photon Forge Corona Burst Might stack into quickness autos: 4468
**Guardian**
Guardian Greatsword: 2321
Guardian F1 Judges Intervention Whirling Wrath into Greatsword Autos: 3211
Guardian Sword: 2340
Guardian Power Scepter: 2151
Condition Guardian F1>Torch4>auto: 2481
Dragonhunter Longbow: 1565
**Mesmer**
Condition Mirage Axe: 1492
Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)
Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465
Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones with ambush spam: 1164
Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones ambush spam on a moving target: 1439
Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498
Condition Mirage Pistol 4 into Staff Ambush spam: 2452
Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170
Power Mesmer Sword Berserker's Amulet: 2190
Power Mesmer Berserker's Blurred Frenzy into Sword Autos: 3513
Power Mesmer GS burst combo (LOL): 16,400
**Necromancer**
Power Reaper Axe: 1519
Power Reaper Build 10 vuln with auto then Ghastly Claws: 2642
Power Reaper Greatsword: 2715
Reaper's Shroud Reaper's Onslaught Autos: 4436
Reaper's Shroud Soul Spiral into Autos: 5822
Core Necromancer Scepter: 899
Condi Core Necromancer Death Shroud: 1803
**Ranger**
Rock Gazelle: 1270
Smokescale: 670
Siamoth: 721
Owl: 769
Ranger Greatsword: 1774
Ranger Greatsword with Rock Gazelle: 2857
Ranger Quickening Zephyr into Maul into greatsword autos with Rock Gazelle: 4452
Axe Autos No Bounce: 1626
Axe Autos no bounce with Rock Gazelle: 2283
Ranger Longbow max range autos: 1464
Ranger Longbow max range Rapid Fire into autos: 1885
Ranger Longbow Max Range Rapid Fire into autos with Smokescale: 2615
Sic Em Soulbeast Merged Quickening Zephyr Rapid Fire into autos: 5232
**Revenant**
Herald Sword: 2223
Herald Phase Traversal into Sword 4+5 then Auto Attacks: 5882
Herald Phase Traversal into Auto Attacks with Impossible Odds: 6576
**Thief**
Core SA Thief Assassin Signet into Backstab+Steal into Auto Attacks: 8612
Daredevil Sword: 2523
Daredevil Pistol Whip Spam with Lesser Haste Proc: 4361
Daredevil Dagger: 2483
Daredevil Shortbow: 3433 with bounces (I think its safe to assume 1144 without bounces, golem positioning makes this kind of difficult to test)
Daredevil Cluster Bomb spam: 2706
Deadeye Kneeling Rifle: 1937
Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Three Round Burst Spam: 7162
Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Spotter's Shot spam: 5095
**Warrior**
Warrior Greatsword Auto Attacks: 2272
Warrior Arcing Slice into Greatsword Autos: 3158
Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Hundred Blades Arcing Slice right before the knockdown ends combo: 5157 ]
Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Arcing Slice then Hundred Blades: 7714
Spellbreaker Dagger: 2225
Warrior Rifle: 1305