mortrialus.3062

While I've always maintained "Condition Mirage will find a way. It always finds a way." and it always has. And it still might. But if anything is going to kill the spec it's going to be this.

The main thing of condition mirage going to one dodge roll isn't just that it loses out on a dodge. Think about how every class including condition mirage currently play; You're inherently and unconsciously programmed to dodge once pretty flippantly and then save the second dodge roll until you really need it. Because in order to regenerate endurance at all at least some of your endurance needs to be drained. If you aren't dodge rolling at least once every 10 seconds of a fight or 7.5 seconds with vigor you're losing out on potential dodges you could have taken and thus momentum. That lack of a second dodge translates to more time you're going to squat on that completely full evade bar, which translates into your opponent regardless of build evading more of your attacks than you are of theirs. A normal build can potentially gets 5.25 seconds of evade through their dodge rolls naturally regenerating. High vigor builds can get potentially 6.75 seconds. Now granted you aren't going to be spamming dodge rolls literally every time they're available as soon as they're available. But the way the endurance system works you're incentive to use them soon.

You watch good players that are actively in a fight like Tramadex, Sindrener, Naru. Unless it's a situation where there is literally nothing threatening them coming their way they don't sit on full endurance for more than a couple seconds at most and if anything does it's always the dodge roll that gets used first. It changes the fundamental principals of how endurance is played. You are forever only in a state where you are wasting your endurance regeneration; either by wasting it by spending it before truly highest priority skills are thrown at you, for or by squatting on endurance and not spending it for seconds longer than you would on other classes ensuring the momentum of the fight is not in your favor.

Another thing is that there are so many things in the game that require double dodge. Rapid Fire on longbow ranger, you either double dodge it or you blow a blink to get behind line of sight, if you can even get one. There's so many times I've capped waterfall on Legacy and as I begin to push towards mid when a ranger runs of the graveyard staircase, and immediately tries to Point Blank Shot you into Rapid Fire. You either double dodge that or get bursted for over half your health.

Dagger Storm, 3 seconds of sustained pressure you need double dodge to deal with it and simply blinking away doesn't always help because thieves can and very much might steal or shadow step back onto you or infiltrator's signet.

All in all this particular drawback just isn't a good idea. It feels spiteful "Kill Mirage, anything will do." And some people will cheer for that. People cheered about Chronomancer going away but the point of balance is to increase the diversity of the characters and builds you see. While at the time I did not like what the primary Chronomancer was doing when it got nerfed (Power Greatsword abusing the Slow and Bonus Damage and Crit Damage Traits, basically normal power greatsword but with the damage bonus shit like Mantra of Pain were criting for 8k). And sure getting caught in a Gravity Well isn't fun. But getting caught by any attack isn't fun. And GW2 PvP is less rich with Chronomancer in the dumpster and it will be with less rich with Mirage in the dumpster.

And also, the whole idea of Drawbacks ArenaNet have fallen in love with is faulty to begin with. When elite specializations are well designed the DON'T NEED Drawbacks. Take Druid. Druid as an elite specialization is lazy focused on healing support. Your new weapon? It's 100% healing with mobility and some immobilize. Your new utilities? Have heavily focused on support and group buffing. Your traits? Heavily focus on healing, group support and some survival options like stealth, daze. Druid didn't need trade offs, because the way Druid was designed down to it's fundamental DNA means you would and could never do as much damage as a core ranger was capable of regardless of how you built your druid. It didn't need the pet stats nerf And if there are problems with Druid it's a lot, lot easier to laser focus on things specifically in the Druid's kit. Similar situation with Scrapper, as scrapper you simply cannot do as much damage as a core engineer let alone a holosmith, it's already baked into the DNA of scrapper.

Holosmith even with it's "trade off" is not a well designed elite speciation. Holosmith radically upped the damage and mobility of Core Engineer. But that's not all it did. It also had really out of place healing traits that boosted it's self healing compared to Core Engineer. It had stuff like Traited Corona Burst to give it more stability than Core Engineer. It gave it blocks it can use to cover it's attack, it has a utility that gives it 50% incoming damage and condition damage. So in exchange for one losing an Elite Toolbelt skill, none of which are game changing, holosmith gains more damage, mobility, healing, stability, and scaling defenses. That's the problem with a number of elite specializations, not arbitrarily "Oh none of the professions skills changed". And yeah, Mirage is definitely in the holosmith camp.

Mirage is designed to be a condition skirmisher that boosts both it's evade potential, condition damage potential, and mobility. So why does it have things that boost it's self sustain such as regeneration on dodge in addition to reduced incoming condition duration? Why does it have protection on dodge? Why did it come baked with Stunbreak on Dodge and Condition Damage on dodge (Let alone dodge on stun which still needs to go)? Why does it have hands down the best healing skill for mesmer in terms of both utility and the self healing? Why did it come packaged with so much weakness just with it's Mirror splashing them around? All of which directly impact both its self sustain and physical durability on top of evasion, condition damage, and mobility.

At this point you need to think about what Mirage should be doing that improves upon core mesmer and what it should lack. If it should be a more evasive skirmish with higher condition damage, the obvious answer is to make it less sustaining and less durable than core mesmer when hits do come in, let alone chronomancer. If any of the elite specializations should have gotten the reduced vitality as a draw back, it makes much more sense for it to have been Mirage that get that trait and not scrapper. That change didn't make any sense and really hurt Scrapper and just almost knocked them out of ranked entirely. Because it doesn't make sense to have Scrapper be designed to be good at being defensive and tanky and make it also kneecap itself at being defensive and tanky. This is like -300 power and condition damage as the trade off to Berserker. Or Daredevil getting -50% reduced Endurance Regeneration because it gets a 3rd dodge bar. It just literally doesn't make sense.

TLDR:

1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.

2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.

2. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.

3. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.

4. Mirage should keep 2 bars of endurance and lose -300 vitality, which makes more sense for mirage both thematically and gameplay wise than it ever did for scrapper. They maintain evasiveness but when hits land they matter more.

5. Two Clone Limit is a far smarter change than one dodge roll bar.

6. Dodge on stun still needs to go.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> I think Spellbreaker's tradeoff of burst skills getting capped at tier 1 was a good idea. Mirage should still have both dodges but illusions should get capped at 2 and they shouldn't be able to dodge while hard cc'd or immobilized. Also, Mesmers should get locked out of their skills while in Distortion similar to other invuln skills like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist Form and (now) Obsidian Flesh.

Personally back before it got nerfed I thought Mirage Cloak should have kept 1s Mirage Cloak Duration but should lose Distortion.

You gain the benefits of mirage cloak and a longer evade that with mirrors allows you to over time get more evasion up time than the Distortion could give you, but you lose your capacity to burst out a 4 second Invulnerability. I also still wanted and still want evade while stun removed on top of that.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > * Long Range Lad: Deals spike damage from the maximum possible distance in order to avoid fighting in melee for a prolonged period of time; often bursts from off-screen or from stealth.

> > * Melee Boi: Uses a number of passives, block/evade skills, or teleports in order to enter into melee range for a burst rotation.

> >

> > >!* Super-Secret Third Profession: Thief (because it does both of these things at once)

> >

> > Having respectively lost anywhere between 25-66% damage effectiveness in its handful of most popular skillbar choices, Mesmer is almost obliterated. Guardian, which has always been litttle more than "Blue Warrior with 1 teleport and a free block," has almost no purpose anymore as a damage option; and if it does, said purpose is entirely indistinguishable in playstyle or goal from any other damage option. When looking at the potential damage output, Ranger is basically falling in line with Mesmer, blurring the lines between the classes. Never before has Revenant just been "even edgier Thief (but worse?)," and by ripping their 3-4 most popular damage buttons from this plane of existence, the class is left utterly broken and mostly worthless outside of just being an annoyance to anyone attempting to cap a point (then again, they could all just go condi, but then they're literally just a Scourge with how they become a moving AoE bubble on fixed intervals; see how this works now?). And really, these are only a few of the mountain of comparisons to make.

> >

> > Now, to clarify, this is not a petition against the coming patch in general or even against any particular nerf, all this means is that Guild Wars 2 launched, in 2012, with **three or four TOO MANY professions**. This game, while featuring avatars which are satisfying to move, features very little, if nothing at all, when it comes to actual movement tech or juking. Beyond this, combat is entirely locked into cooldown-based decision-making rather than operating within a constant flux of aggression, mobility and defensive objectives. The game also features skill bars loaded up with, at the very least, 16 skills, often totaling far higher (sometimes up into the 30s), despite a massive number of them serving little purpose more than [DEAL X DAMAGE TO TARGET].

> >

> > GW2 has a shallow gameplay cycle. It's so shallow, in fact, that this game was cursed to be dominated by patch notes the moment it released. This game has far too many classes for its own good, and this particular patch is perhaps the best proof of this. Anyone left playing this game is caught in a conflagration of shouts and complaints over how this class or that class has nothing left to contribute to PvP based entirely on notes which **did nothing but change some numbers.** If this game featured classes which had ANY sort of unique mechanics to them, ANY SORT of actual role to play within a team, then a global nerf to damage probably wouldn't create such a forum firestorm as you see now.

> >

> > You have to understand: ArenaNet, as a company, has lost nearly every (or possibly every) developer who actually worked on the nuts and bolts which support Guild Wars 2. This sort of titanic balance patch is truly the best that Anet can do for GW2, and it's not even something that will REMOTELY address the main problem with the game. In fact, reducing every class' damage on a global level will only HIGHLIGHT this game's biggest problem more than anything else: the professions of Guild Wars 2 have NO ROLES to play. In their attempt to "be the most innovating MMORPG," the original developers of GW2 stripped the flavor and unique roles from their franchise's flagship classes, and reintroduced everything as a homogenized slurry of "I do DPS." Over time, powercreep had become the unique role to play; the only role to play; and, naturally, not every class could play it all at once. By removing the powercreep, GW2 is once again barren and gray.

> >

> > Again, this patch is probably one of the better things that Anet could do for GW2 at this point; the underlying problem remains, however, that even if its the best thing that the staff could do, it doesn't, and it will never address the fundamental issue of how GW2 is just a game with a shallow gameplay cycle that buries nine, generic classes under a deep abyss of homogeneity.

>

> This is the end result of removing the trinity, rather than innovating it or creating a form of it which it works for your design. By removing the " Tank, healer, dps" trinity they have made sure that there will never be true balance. There will never be anything outside of "I do dps" with a tad of support, the game was designed for people who could not handle the real mmo-rpgs out there. Those who could not and refused to learn their roles... Guild wars 2 even goes against its original counter part which DID have the trinity but it was not heavy handed with it.

>

> The trinity is not evil, it is not bad. It is actually the core principle that these type of games need, I love playing a tank in games like this and yet I cant? Why ? Well because the dev's have ensured such a roll in its true nature will never exist. They could of handled it like ESO does which makes it so tanks can do dps, just not as well but come loaded with damaged mitigation's FOR THEIR TEAM and cc as well the ability to shut-down big threats and dive into the back-line. This is what happens when you try to be so different from EVERY OTHER GAME rather than focusing on being the best innovation of the foundation. Why scrap the entire idea, when its not flawed but needs to be shaped into something beautiful? You should of ran with the original trinity and made it your own, now you're here and the game is doomed to repeat this cycle until the day the game itself ends.

I think removing the trinity so heavily is definitely one of Guild Wars 2's biggest Original Sins PvE and PvP.

There are three types of boxers

Swarmers

Sluggers

Out-boxers

There are three fighting game characters:

Zoner

Grappler

Rush Down

I do want to say that I understand the logic in nerfing CC skills heavily in the damage department, I think a lot of this is going too far with it to the point of ruining things like class identity.

For example: Prime Light Beam. Prime Light Beam is one of my favorite utility skills to have to play against. It's really cool, it fits with Holosmith really well thematically and gameplay wise. If I dodge it, I always feel like I gained a huge advantage in the fight. If I get tagged with it, there's always a wave of panic.

If I had any one complaint about the skill, the only thing I disliked was that it could be cast from stealth and since it has no projectile from stealth it is genuinely unavoidable. I really only wanted to see self revealed applied to the holosmith when they begin casting the skill so if they try to cast it from stealth I get to see the tell anyway.

I was fine with the damage. I was fine with the CC. I was fine with the flavor. This applies to other elites like Dragon Maw, Head Butt, ect. ect.

I think full on the point of balance patches is a massive increase in build diversity. We want to see MATs and one side might have a Greatsword/Dagger+Shield Spellbreaker on one side, and something that seems impossible with the current balance like a Hammer Berserker running Wild Blow. Hammer on warrior is all about having below average damage, little mobility, no defensive options but making up for it with heavy CC. If you do something like gut all the damage out of all the hammer skills that weapon kit will never be seen in game again. Like all the damage on the kit is gone I straight up think it will be outright impossible to score a single kill on any build ever if you have a weapon kit that literally just does not do damage the way you've done with warrior hammer now.

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > * Nothing seemed too outstanding to comment on, until I got to this: **Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes** = Woah woah! Is that... necessary? I mean a lot of people with long time aggression vs. Mirage are probably thinking "YEAH IT DESERVES IT. SCREW MIRAGE" but really guys, without the ability to double dodge roll when needed, the Mirage is going to frequently be caught in the kinds of bursting that it cannot avoid. I think Arenanet needs to seriously reconsider this very heavy handed nerf.

> > >

> > > I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah and during this time daredevil has 3 evade bar.

> > Mean where is the trade off ? you think having only one evade justify to evade when you want ?

> > Here will be the use case : hit the mirage, burn his scepter block, his evade then CC burst, GG you are done.

> > They can dodge while CCed : have you ever try to lock burst other spec (particulary thieves.) ? Mean how did they manage CC ?

> > Btw as long as we have clones perturbing people, mesmer will stay strong huh ?

>

> Daredevil doesn't have clones. The entire thief class was created to be squishy without evasion. Mesmer was created to feel pressure after their clones were destroyed. They weren't suppose to have access to the same amount of evasion as thief nor access to the same amount of stealth as thief. They also have a higher health pool than Thief.

Right now in terms of evade uptime, meta condition mirage is hitting close to 22 seconds of evade+distortion up time during the first minute of combat. SP Thief is hitting 30 seconds of evade up time throughout the first minute of combat. Mirage is already decidedly below thief+daredevil in evade up time right now before the change. Meta Spellbreaker with Magebane Tether right now is hitting 29 seconds of evade+block throughout the first minute of combat. Mirage is no longer a god of evading all incoming damage like it was before the adventure rune+energy sigil nerfs and the 1s Mirage Cloak duration.

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

> >

> > While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

> >

> > Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

> >

> > In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

> >

> > Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

>

> Thief will always depend on the meta. Yes you nerfed most or dp thiefs burst and made less stealth uptime w withdraw nerf. How much hp nerfs did you see? Toughness? Nothing, protection spam? Nothing. The harder its to kill the easier it is for other classes to push thief out.

Protection and weakness got massive trims across the board. Not only did a lot of like most skills that provide protection or weakness take tons of 50% duration nerfs, but we lost expertise amulets and all the expertise runes got their bonus condition duration deduced by more than half.

Both of these changes are really going to be appreciated by thieves who even though they took a few hits on their own. And while toughness and hp didn't get nerfed across the board most defensive skills had their cooldown increases. Revenant having a higher energy cost on reposting shadows and getting less endurance refunding, warding rift having like a 5 or 10 second increased cooldown, ranger greatsword block having an extra 10 second cooldown, phase retreat having an increased cooldown and blink having an increased cooldown. These are all very good for thief+daredevil.

Sure toughness and hp didn't get nerfed. But protection spam sure did and cooldown nerfs across to defensive skills did happen massively. Weakness spam nerfs did happen massively.

This is all speculative. We really don't know. I just think it's pretty clear the Daredevil overhaul and the Shadow Arts overhaul super charged both Daredevil and Core Thief a lot and the way you see other popular classes seeing extreme targeted nerfs like Glint Shiro, Fire Weaver, and Condition Mirage just didn't happen with thief and that has me nervous.

I've been thinking about advocating nerfing this trait but couldn't think of a way to do so without changing the whole thing. And I'm pleasantly surprised they did decide to straight up change it.

Glint Shiro is definitely too strong. But I don't think it's gross in terms of its overall damage, burst, or mobility. The main problem with Glint Shiro is that it has Team Fight carry damage like a scourge while having a defensive rotation that prevents it from being focused like a team fight damage carry.

And a decent part of it is stun break on Legend Swap. Now it's not as bad Elusive Mind before it got exhaustion added to it. Even though the dodge rolls are an effective 10 second cooldown to refill an endurance bar, Mirage did pull a lot a head due to Adventure Runes and running Energy Sigil on both weapon sets as well as massive vigor uptime at the time... but Stun Break on Legend Swap is **in it's league** in terms of just too much stun break access. You literally just can't lock down a rev the way you can currently CC and contain something like a Holosmith, Necro/Reaper, Core Guardian, Core Warrior, ect ect.

I think it's safe to say thief and Daredevil are two of the strongest builds right now and the only builds I've ever heard of to dethrone having a FB support in MATs.

While pistol whip is seeing nerfs and even an initiative increase, the significantly stronger Shadow Arts DP isn't see any changes to the new life steal trait that super charged the traditionally purely defensive trait line into something very potent both defensive and offensive, not assassination signet. Just the same 20-30% coefficient nerf everything else is getting. Which has me pretty worried about thief becoming even more dominant after the patch.

Anyway on topic you don't need to rebuild the initiative from the ground up. If something is over performing while spammed on thief you can always adjust the initiative cost up a bit to achieve similar results to standard cooldown increases.

In fact in many ways tinkering with initiative can alter the way thief loadouts feel more dramatically than adding +5seconds to any other classes weapon skill.

Also really wanted to see something done about Sword 2. Like, most people understand thief will be built with a lot of inherent hit and run, but at 3 initiative in 2 out to clear effectively 1800 units of distance, attempt to immobilize the target, get to safety while cleaning has always been a ridiculous level of value and functionally infinite capacity to hit and run. That's a lot of things happening on what is effectively a 5 second cooldown.

> The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel

> * Deadshot Amulet

> * Wanderer Amulet

Why? These are literally the same offensive/defensive split for stats are Marauders and Demolisher's.

Everyone talks about "endless conditions" whenever a condition build is actually among the top tier of builds. But let's flip the script here a little. So let's say you're fighting a Holosmith. You avoid Photon Forge 3, the 5, and the 4. Are you safe? No. Because you still have to contend with unlimited Photon auto attacks and nearly unlimited Photon Forge 2s which still does 2.1k damage per second on its own, and up to 4k damage per second with might stacks and quickness from Elixir U.

When you fight a Revenant, you dodge the sword 3,4,5. Are you safe? No. Because you still have to content with unlimited sword auto attacks which out put 2.25k damage per second before you talk about how much damage it does with quickness and might, and with might and quickness and impossible odds we are talking about 6,500 dps with PvP stats in a PvP setting.

Compare this with Condition Mirage which outputs 1,800 on staff in absolutely optimal settings (3 clones close enough to the target for all the attacks to bounce and get 2x damage), and 2,400 when "bursting" and Fire Weaver which normally does 1,700 dps and hits 3,200 DPS when "bursting".

Damage is an unlimited resource in GW2, this applies to both Power damage and Condition Damage. There's no mana system that prevents you from ever straight up 100% running out of attacks.

Generally speaking, across the board condition damage is consistently under tuned. The issue is almost never the actual condition damage itself. It's the defensive measures around the damage output. Fire Weaver has, literally, potentially 37 seconds of evade/obsidian flesh up time through the first 60 seconds of combat. Firebrand, is loaded with an ungodly amount of projectile reflection, resistance, cleanse, aegis. If thief is running sword, SP or SD, they're hitting 50% evasion up time on top of their capacity to almost endlessly enter and exit combat. And if they're shadow arts dagger pistol they're hitting permanent stealth up time. Mirage is hitting 22 seconds of evade / invuln uptime per 60 seconds of combat which isn't that ridiculous but they also combine this with perhaps the best kit for trolling a player just out of melee range on any build.

There's definitely some tuning up of where damage should be coming from. Fire weavers should probably not be farting out massive burn stacks in an AoE around them just for activating primordial stance. x Condition mesmer is probably at a decent spot at 1,800 dps when just out of melee range on staff but 1,200 of that dps shouldn't be coming from the clones and should be rolled all into the mesmer's winds of chaos itself.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64717/please-add-an-option-to-destroy-your-own-teams-treb

I already made this thread

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Then we will be right back here at the forums everyday, complaining, whining, and moaning until Mesmer is on par with revenant :o

>

> Everyone get your pitchforks

Remember when Revenant was legit bad in the face of POF until Sword Offhand got it's own POF power creep?

What were the winning comps for January? I didn't catch the streams.

> @"Alin.2468" said:

> This is called power-creep era. There are no more bunkers or point holders. It's **kill or be killed**; simple as that.

Unless it's dedicated support slapping dedicated support, it should always be kill or be killed, or forced to completely flee from a fight.

Being tanky and having defenses should be an advantage that lets you win a fight, but a winner should always be an eventuality. Personally the balance should be set at a point where no build is killing another build faster than 5 seconds, and no build survives longer than 60 seconds. And 20-30 is the sweet spot for a 1v1.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> > >

> > > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> > >

> > > Suggestions:

> > > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

> >

> > -You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

> > -The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

>

> Can't change infiltrators return without negatively affecting **sword/dagger, a more healthy and interactive spec.**

Barely.

Sword Dagger is pretty degenerate, and shares the same nearly limitless capacity to engage and disengage and that aspect is noxious on both SD and SP.

> @"Dave.6819" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> >

> > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> >

> > Suggestions:

> > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> >

> >

>

> That's what you get when u constantly nerf thief.. they find the most dull builds to somehow cope with nerfs. I say bring back D/P meta and every1 will be happy. Until D/P is back there won't be any fun or skill required build out there. Unless oldschool D/D or S/D but we all know oldschool D/D will never come back. I personally quited gw2 until they bring D/P back. Rifle/Staff/SP/SD just aint fun at all. I won't even mention condi. That's obvious what i think about it.

Yeah, no. A big part of what is going on is the Daredevil rework super charged a number of Daredevil traits in ways that were not justified and pure power creep.

Take for example:

> Escapist's Absolution: This trait has been merged with Driven Fortitude and renamed Escapist's Fortitude. It is now an Adept-tier trait.

This change merged the trait that cleansed on evade, which is almost certainly the single strongest cleanse trait in the game, with the one that heals for 450 damage on evade. ICD only one second. Considering SP Daredevil can hit nearly 30 seconds of evade frames during the first 60 seconds of combat that is a massive increase on their capacity to survive both power damage and condition damage. If a thief is evading a skill every 4 seconds that's basically like they have an extra half a healing skill always ticking passively in the back ground. That adds up to a significant amount of healing, about 105 HPS, potentially even higher. Considering most healing skills ultimately come out to 220-300 HPS you can see why thieves and daredevils in particular are suddenly a lot harder to kill even when you land hits on them.

Next Weakening Strikes was made into a baseline Minor, as well as being reworked into having significantly higher weakness uptime because rather than procing on Crit which you can't really guarantee it now procs on next hit after you evade. The uptime on weakness is straight up massive on daredevil now, and it also gives a blanket -10% incoming damage on top of the fumble debut and Anet added an additional 7% damage modifier on top of it.

Finally as much as thief players were all sour grapes when it came to Swipe losing 600 range, the unblockable is a huge buff in the grand scheme of things. First most good thieves will specifically engage in combat with you and try to bait out dodges and then steal. So the amount of steals coming at you from 600 range is already probably a minority of them.

Second, one of the deadliest aspects of this is Unblockable Swipe combined with trickery's Slight of Hand Daze. This gives thieves unblockable, instant cast, wind up free, interrupt. This interrupt can cancel your block stances. Things such as Warrior Shield Block, Mesmer Illusionary Counter and Echo of Memory, Revenant's Warding Rift, Ranger's Counterattack. The second a daredevil sees these they can instantly cancel them, often completely throttling the player's defensive rotation entirely.

Previously this sort of play required Basilisk Venom, which itself has a tell both the animation where it is applied and the buff that appears on the thief's status bar indicating "You cannot block the upcoming attacks."

And while Impacting Distraction hasn't changed, it combos very very well with unblockable daze on swipe. And they can afford to get both this trait and Condition Cleanse on evade, which was normally a difficult choice.

There's a reason why since the Daredevil rework we've seen Condition SD run rampant in ranked, followed by Staff/Staff running rampant in ranked and especially ATs, and now Pistol Whip. And no, it's not because all the "nonstop nerfs".

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Thorstienn.1642" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"aymnad.9023" said:

> > > > > Not useful but really interesting to see it. Games under gold 2 lack dodging so you might see those numbers there :tongue:

> > > > > Why did you detail so much some professions and left others? (shredder gyro scrapper, are missing for example, weaver only has 3 lines, , putting burst on some specs but not other)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Something like how much damage herald is doing with it's standard phase traversal combo is something I think is personally interesting. It's hammer combo is significantly less so.

> > > >

> > > > I also main mesmer in particular so I'm very interesting in seeing exactly what proportion of your damage the clones actually are. And when it comes to something like spell breaker you're either seeing them flail about barely doing damage on Greatsword or Dagger, or you seeing them take a burst with the Bull's Charge into Greatsword F1 into 100 Blades combo.

> > > >

> > > > Similar situation to ranger. I think seeing laid out how Rock Gazelle is doing nearly 2x as much damage as other pets is very interesting and useful. Seeing exactly how much Axe Pull into Axe 5 with Rock Gazelle? I think is less useful.

> > >

> > > While interesting, I think it would of been more "useful" to not make it DPS, but to show the total o damage of the common combos over the period of time delivered (and maybe even add setup time?).

> > > Eg. Class combo= 20k damage in 3secs, req 3 ability setup of 3secs.

> >

> > It's the medium target golem usually. All of these are the DPS until it deals 18,000 damage.

>

> wait, so it took over 1s to kill medium golem on power mes o.O

ArcDPS always has a little bit of noise due to it tracking dps until you leave combat. I was just testing that for the lulz.

> @"Thorstienn.1642" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"aymnad.9023" said:

> > > Not useful but really interesting to see it. Games under gold 2 lack dodging so you might see those numbers there :tongue:

> > > Why did you detail so much some professions and left others? (shredder gyro scrapper, are missing for example, weaver only has 3 lines, , putting burst on some specs but not other)

> > >

> >

> > Something like how much damage herald is doing with it's standard phase traversal combo is something I think is personally interesting. It's hammer combo is significantly less so.

> >

> > I also main mesmer in particular so I'm very interesting in seeing exactly what proportion of your damage the clones actually are. And when it comes to something like spell breaker you're either seeing them flail about barely doing damage on Greatsword or Dagger, or you seeing them take a burst with the Bull's Charge into Greatsword F1 into 100 Blades combo.

> >

> > Similar situation to ranger. I think seeing laid out how Rock Gazelle is doing nearly 2x as much damage as other pets is very interesting and useful. Seeing exactly how much Axe Pull into Axe 5 with Rock Gazelle? I think is less useful.

>

> While interesting, I think it would of been more "useful" to not make it DPS, but to show the total o damage of the common combos over the period of time delivered (and maybe even add setup time?).

> Eg. Class combo= 20k damage in 3secs, req 3 ability setup of 3secs.

It's the medium target golem usually. All of these are the DPS until it deals 18,000 damage.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> I don't understand why Anet didn't continue with the Assassin Profession from Guild Wars instead.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqzYhvJTK8'

>

> The game and the community would've been in a much healthier state than this Toxic state.

>

> (to be honest, I really would like Anet to replace Thief Profession with Assassin Profession; without stealth of course!!)

I love how your suggestion to make thief "less toxic" is to compare it to GW1's Assassin and then post a trailer where one Assassin unstoppably kills a dozen people until another assassin OHKO's him.

I actually don't think thief is _inherently_ bad in it's design. Stealth is fine mechanically. Initiative is fine mechanically. Giving thief the most mobility is fine mechanically. If I'd do anything from a class balance and design standpoint it'd be to give steal/swipe a cast time similar to the wind up on Unrelenting Assault and I'd remove basically all of their capacity to break stuns.

It's fine that thieves are the most evasive class in the game. With Sword+Pistol and Sword+Dagger sets they're approaching 50% evade frame uptime. It's fine that thieves can get nearly permanent stealth uptime with Dagger+Pistol set ups, straight up legitimate permanent stealth if they're Shadow Arts. It's fine that thieves are the most mobile thing in the game. But the obvious weak point is that thieves should basically how little to no capacity to actually handle CC if it lands. If you time a well time'd CC on a thief they basically should have to suffer through it.

Right now They get 2x stunbreaks with Shadow Step. They're running Roll for Initiative which is a stunbreak. If they're daredevil they can run Bandit's Defense for a stunbreak. Both Infiltrator's Signet and Blinding Powder have seen historical use Plus they can daze with steal and swipe if need be so if they're ever stunned, don't have a stunbreak and really in danger they can still save themselves with an interrupt. So a thief can evade everything of threat that you throw at them.

They give zero fucks about any CC you land on them and if they are threatened they always have more mobility than you to escape by design. So it really is like "Where is the opening?"

Thieves are historically basically impossible to kill when played moderately competently. They are now they still are. Between their unmatched mobility and high evasion a thief only, only ever dies if they make a mistake of over committing to a fight that is clearly lost. There's a reason why it's always the thief that survives a teamfight and then proceeds to scream at their team for being trash, as if surviving on thief is any tall order whatsoever. There needs to be some kind of opening to fighting a thief.

Typically the thief/rogue archetype is weak to CC in MMORPGs and RPGs in general. It probably should be in Guild Wars 2 as well. Deadeye as well should be designed to basically sacrifice stealth, and should have never been redesigned to primarily revolve around stealth. It has the most mobility inherently, and deadeye gives it massive ranged pressure and the most range alongside Ranger Longbow. The obvious weakpoint it should have is that it shouldn't be the king of stealth as well. But currently it is. Deadeye should have some sort of mechanic that inhibits their stealth access and success on a deadeye should revolve around positioning rather than permanent stealth uptime the second something even looks at you funny.

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > Ah yes the classic about finding excuses. "they duo on alt that is silver!" as mentioned before busting this myth you take the rating from the highest duo to be applied this has been confirmed in the past and can be found in the algorithm so stop telling nonsense. It was possible back in s5~ to do this but got fixed years ago.

> >

> > The only myth is that it uses the rating of the highest player for matchmaking. If you found that in the algorithm, go ahead and send it to me. I looked it over and it isn't mentioned once. DuoQ's aren't even mentioned at all.

> > I don't know how you expect me to believe that got patched out in s5, as when DuoQ came back in s13; you could still disconnect to save your partner from losing rating from a loss. If that got overlooked, it's pretty safe to assume smurfing did too since it's a less accessible ~~bug?~~ feature.

> >

> > Let's say it is that way tho, the silver alt could quickly be boosted to plat too since they'd still be matched against people higher level than themselves which is pretty messed up to think about on its own. It's like we want the top 250 to all be the same two people.

> >

> > You can also test this for yourself. It's a feature so long as it's in the game so you can't be wronged for it. Get a buddy to tank an alt down to silver, queue with them, and see the results. Rating gain/loss in this game is **only** calculated by the ratings of other players in your lobby. When you gain +3 from queing with a silver and the silver is gaining +16-20 it's because the people are closer to and/or higher than the silver's rating, and they're all lower than yours.

> >

> > I haven't played for the past few seasons because DuoQ has made the game super boring, but this was for a fact working during Season 13 at least.

>

> You are so missinformed its hilarious. If your partner DC you 100% lose rating if you lose the match.

>

> Even people on reddit remembers it:

>

> "XiahouMao

> True Hero of the Three Kingdoms

> 6 points

> ·

> 3 years ago

> It was changed a while back so that when players partied together, matchmaking was based on the highest skilled player among the party. The change to just a duo queue at most wouldn't alter that at all."

> s

> This was STATED in the past, feel free to dig up the post yourself. I know you won't cus that means your world would be shattered

>

> Anyway, you do know that I consider two really high rated players duo queuing getting worse matches rather than a duoq high rated and a lowrated gets?

> Sometimes highrated players try to snipe my games, but since Im duo queuing with someone who is 1800+ like myself its too hard for the matchmaker to find even matches so it goes to gold, and makes it gold2/3 on my team and plat1/2 on enemy team to average the rating out. That means people that are highrated will get into a better game where its like plat2/3 vs plat 2/3/legend

>

> So you saying duo queuing with low alts would make it easier is also just plain wrong lmao

I'm a nobody. Just some NA guy who averages out plat 1-2 on usual. Which is probably why I get asked to do this sort of stuff. Over the years since PoF released and I started largely maining PvP I have been offered literally tens of thousands of gold over the years to throw matches from a variety of well known players who I have reported, and if I named I could expect a ban on these forums for "Naming and shaming" and they're still around posting on these forums. This includes stuff like being asked to directly sabotage my own team to being asked to alt-F4 in a losing game so certain players on my team don't lose rating. I never comply and I report them all. Said players and their accounts are still around and kicking. No action is taken on their account. They might even reply to this post.

> @"aymnad.9023" said:

> Not useful but really interesting to see it. Games under gold 2 lack dodging so you might see those numbers there :tongue:

> Why did you detail so much some professions and left others? (shredder gyro scrapper, are missing for example, weaver only has 3 lines, , putting burst on some specs but not other)

>

Something like how much damage herald is doing with it's standard phase traversal combo is something I think is personally interesting. It's hammer combo is significantly less so.

I also main mesmer in particular so I'm very interesting in seeing exactly what proportion of your damage the clones actually are. And when it comes to something like spell breaker you're either seeing them flail about barely doing damage on Greatsword or Dagger, or you seeing them take a burst with the Bull's Charge into Greatsword F1 into 100 Blades combo.

Similar situation to ranger. I think seeing laid out how Rock Gazelle is doing nearly 2x as much damage as other pets is very interesting and useful. Seeing exactly how much Axe Pull into Axe 5 with Rock Gazelle? I think is less useful.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > > > What do you guys think about this?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The res mechanic already heavily favors the side with more numbers. From my perspective, downstate and rallying are exactly the same. There have been plenty of winnable fights (both outnumbered and even) if the downed enemies my team or I get weren't constantly getting rallied.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1. I dont agree with this statement because its not entirely true. The side with fewer numbers can res multiple times should the side with higher numbers have people who go down or die more easily / often so i feel like this statement is a bit subjective.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It also heavily enforces the notion in ranked that the side with the worst PUGs lose. If your teammates feed in every fight, there's simply nothing/very little you can do to take back control of the map if they die too quickly to regain any footing.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 2. Learning is a part of the process once again though im not so sure about this statement if your team is going down cause your comp is not as good as the enemy teams it does not mean your teammates are purpose feeding some times you are just mechanically out matched and need to try a different strategy but not everyone catches onto the idea that there might be another option unless someone tells them to try something different.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now, if it's possible for Anet to test a sPvP season with no downstate (as long as they remove berserker/assassin amulet and tune down stacking damage modifiers that make oneshot builds possible PRIOR to starting the season), this is something I'd be willing and interested to play in. Then, scenarios such as 2v2s where I down an enemy and they down my teammate become winnable even _after_ another enemy rotates in to rez/stomp.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 3. condition builds become super meta... imagine having condis throwing on you and instead of getting a second chance with down state you just die instantly feeels bad man.

> > > > > > > > > 4. imo Zerker and assassin ammy shouldn't be options in spvp in general. This also changes nothing with your previous statements techncially speaking the side with the better team or higher numbers in a fight will still heavily favor that side.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, I think it might be worth preventing teammates from rezzing until combat ends as well. These changes would make fights more about who is more skilled as opposed to who has the numbers advantage.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 5. It wont though it will still be the same. Dont be fooled into the idea that this changes much.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Anyways, that's just something I was thinking about from the no downstate WvW. A lot of people loved it, I have a feeling the same would apply for sPvP. Also, I feel like the combat would be a lot cleaner and easier to watch since people aren't constantly going up and down.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 6. I wouldnt mind no down state events or some maps having no down state like if team death or other game modes were supported but in the standard capture and hold i dont really see the point.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 1. Um... if you have to add a condition to make a statement true, it's probably because it isn't true to begin with. Rezzing _heavily_ favors the side with more numbers, period. Just because the side with less numbers _can_ potentially rez more often is irrelevant because I could counter with: the side with more numbers _can_ potentially rez more often than the side with less. If you just look at how the rez mechanic works, the side with more players will ALWAYS have an advantage. There are no exceptions to this, currently.

> > > > > > > 1. But you added a condition to make your statement true. Thats why i said it was subjective to start with.

> > > > > > > Infact one could say that the side with the numbers advantage period (regardless if downstate is included or not) has the advantage so whats the point of even bothering to make this claim when the side with the numbers advantage has the advantage before down state would even be applied. like what.... sorry but no... you were already at the disadvantage to start with removing downstate wont change that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 2. The problem is... there's no way to win a match if your PUGs are mechanically out-matched. You, as a single player, _cannot_ carry a game alone if your PUGs are completely incompetent. There are no "different strategies" you could try when Conquest revolves around winning fights/snowballing/pushing your advantage with good rotations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. That depends if you can win smaller fights2v2 or 3v3 etc but not and 4v4 or 5v5 match ups then obviously then the obvious solution would be to try and force the enemy team to split up and take the advantage that way. Not every team comp thats good in bigger fights is just as good when you split them up into smaller fights.

> > > > > > > There are different strategies depending on the map, your team and its comp, and their team and its comp. If you only see things as one line and one line own where "well they have x and y gg cant win" then you shouldnt be in pvp to start with. Conquest and anet do not often support different strats but its up to you to take the risk on trying them. IF plan A is not working and is failing over and over again why do you keep trying plan A. Thats common sense that you try something else.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 3. No, condition builds wouldn't become any more meta than power builds would. In fact, you'd have more time to react and save yourself vs. burst conditions builds than you would against burst power builds. Imagine being at 7k HP and having to choose between getting hit by a Mirage's condi bomb or a Warrior's Eviscerate. Which one would you pick? In this scenario, you'd die faster from the Eviscerate.

> > > > > > > 3. I dont think it matters you are not in the advatnage here if i have to chose between one of them but cant opt to avoid both then it does not matter you are still dead. Leading back to my first comment .... it dont matter cause the advantage here was already lost before we would even get to a down state.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 5. It will change a lot. Currently, it doesn't matter how many people you down, a single support Firebrand rotating in to rez means you've lost that fight. It's almost impossible to outcleave that build as a single player. Preventing them from rezzing and instead forcing them to support their allies that are still _alive_ would result in a completely different dynamic and would help reduce the impact builds like Firebrand/pre-nerf Blood Scourge have on the match. It's no wonder builds that have had the ability to _consistently_ guarantee (or almost guarantee) rezzes have been _consistently_ meta.

> > > > > > > 4. Then that means firebrand is over-performing obviously which we all know to be true. Thats not a down state problem thats a firebrand problem.

> > > > > > > In the case of scourge (why is the scourge alive even when you know it should be the first target) if your team opted to kill other targets first thats a your team problem.

> > > > > > > IF a firebrand is with the scourge then we have already confirmed thats a firebrand problem.

> > > > > > > Do not think that its fair to say no down stat should be a thing just because a firebrand always comes alone and ruins your attempts to finish off a player. Thats directly calling out that the problem is a firebrand issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5. If anything take the creative approach and ask for more skills that can directly finish off players The game imo needs more skills like this considering most people dont commit to using the "stomp" action anymore (unless mirage) and would rather just cleave a downed player to death because its faster and you can ideally ignore the interrupt from the downed player.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 6. These changes would help slow down the pace of the game. It would give individual players a much easier time winning matches _if_ they play well. It would also reduce the snowball effect derived from the highly mobile + high damage meta builds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. If anything it would speed up the game players die faster, teams get more points per kill. Speeds up snowball effect via the previous 2 statements pluse the fact that people cant delay an enemy from de capping or capping a point by being in down state on that point as they die.

> > > > > > > Lastly this is a team game mode not a individual player game mode. While i would love to see other supported game modes you have to accept this as a fact. You cant always carry your team deal with it. there are 9 reasons why you cant individually decide the outcome of a match and each of them is a player in the match with you.

> > > > > > > If you want individual wins to satisfy yourself ask anet for a 1v1 mode or play 2v2 etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. It is literally not subjective at all. 3 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 2 people. 5 people will rez faster than 4 people. That's pretty objective. The only time this would ever be up for debate (thus becoming subjective), are when you start adding in conditions that effect rez speed. Even then, with 10% rez speed modifiers, you'd need 10 players to compensate for the speed you'd gain from simply having an additional person.

> > > > >

> > > > > The advantage was never yours to start with down sate has nothing to do with this lol

> > > > > if you are 2v5 your advantage is already gone regardless of down state why are you putting the illusion that down state is more of an advantage to the side with the bigger number when they already had the advantage from the start this is what i dont understand.

> > > >

> > > > Let me put it into a more understandable version.

> > > >

> > > > In a 2v4, the side with only 2 is straight up at a disadvantage. That's just numbers. But in a world without downstate, it's a lot more likely that if the side with 2 are very skilled and have excellent use of focus, burst, as well as kiting and positioning they can win the 2v4 if they out skill their opponents to a high degree. However, downstate makes it so that in a 2v4 regardless of kiting and positioning, skilled use of terrain, and burst, the side with 4 are unlikely to lose, because if any one of their players die they have three players to rez them up. And if two of them are rezing, unless you have 100% poison up time on the downed body and a ton of cleave you can't even safe stomp fast enough to stop their rez.

> > >

> > >

> > > In a world of good matchmaking 2 teams should never be matched together where 2 people have such a skill gap over the 4 people that they can do that commonly. If so then well gg because that game is a wash out.

> >

> > I, too, wish GW2's PvP had a stable 50,000 active players or more. This is reality. And in real games there are usually strong links in a team and there are weak links in a team.

> >

> > You've largely completely missed the point of what I was trying to say so I'm going to try again.

> >

> > 1 . Downstate turns close fights into massive all or nothing blowouts.

> >

> > Take for example A standard opening game. I'm a side noder. I'm capping home. Home is uncontested. Four of my team faces four of the enemy team in mid. Both teams score two downstates at more or less the same time. One team manages to cleave out one of my teammates and rallies their two guys. They then cleave out the remaining guy. Now the encounter is 4v2. Even if I rotate into the fight now it'd just be 4v3 and I'm unlikely to make a difference. The 3 of us will be eaten alive, especially as the person on home will rotate in making it a 5v3, which again because of downstate it is nearly impossible for any of us to secure any kill before a rez happens no matter how well we play and how low they are on health and cooldowns.

> >

> > Now I have few options. I can either try to regroup with my team at home when they come off respawn, and I'll inevitably have to deal with 3-4 of the enemy team snowballing onto home all at once. Or I can go for a far push, hopefully sneakily decap their node uncontested and hope the way way the enemy team has rotated leaves them off kilter and allows my team to come back. I'm also resigning my team to die.

> >

> > Without downstate, when the two allies and the two enemies ran out of health they didn't just go into downstate, they died. Mid is now 2v2 instead of 4v2. The close fight remains a close fight and it has done so in a way that is overall fair. Now rather than being left with an unsalvagable blowout in mid, me and the enemy side noder rotating into mid is a lot more significant as both of us can swing the entire mid fight depending on who is more skilled between us.

> >

> > Heck even if the mid fight plays out in a similar way and my team scores 2 kills but all four of the fighters going mid die, that has significant ramifications on me due to the fact that the fight that just happened wasn't an all or nothing blow out. Now whatever snowball I have to deal with at home is much more manageable, if they even feel bold enough to try with only 3 teammates alive and four coming off respawn.

>

> My only question is what about when the tables are turned and your team is the one that holds the advantage?

> IF your team lost the mid fight and you cant make a difference then they lost there is nothing wrong with the situation you just played out. It certainly wouldnt be an issue for you if your team was the one who won the mid fight.

>

> >

> > The end result could be a crazy slug fest where one by one each teammates die in this team fight leaving a close exciting 1v1 as all the remaining teammates fell in battle. And this makes sense because without downstate this fight was very close the entire time. And it would be an amazing feeling to be that last player standing, the guy who survived it all and secured the node for your team. And it would still be fair.

>

> This would be ideal for a different game mode but not standard conquest. This is not a 1v1 mode and 1v1's shouldnt always be the end result in this mode. The mode is about capturing the points and some times a side secondary objective. Kills are a part of it but should not be the main focus.

This isn't a 1v1. This is a teamfight that has gone down to the absolute wire. Which currently is nearly impossible because of downstate.

> I have to say i still dont agree with the idea of trying to push something that showcases individual skill as the main aspect in a team focused mode.

>

> I would ideally ask for a new mode that allows that as the main objective 3v3 tag style matches where the combatants fight 1v1 till all members are eventually eliminated with no down state or something.

> There are better ways i think to ideally allow that individual satisfaction that people are striving for without just ripping down states so people can run into 2v4's and 1v3s expecting to just win them.

Let's compare a similar game mechanic. In Marvel vs Capcom each player chooses three fighters. When fighters are reduced to 0 hit points they are dead. They are eliminated. They can't be swapped to. They can't be used for assists. When you lose all your fighters you lose the match.

What Marvel vs. Capcom DOESN'T do is that when one player scores a kill on one of the enemy fighters soon enough after all theirs die, it doesn't revive all their previous fighters to full health. Because all that does is snowball the match in an unnatural way. One player scores a kill? Now they have three fighters vs the enemy's 2. Now you've made things like comebacks immensely more difficult. The idea that a player can die, adjust their strategy and then kill the enemy with their one guy against the enemy's three is basically impossible.

>

> >

> > 2. Downstate compresses gap.

> >

> > Again imagine a realistic scenario in the same game. My entire team wiped mid. I have resolved to stay home, defend it if need to, and regroup with my respawning teammates. While defending home I get rushed 2v1. I massively outskill at least one of the two players who have chosen to rush me at home. We end up in a protracted fight where I repeatedly down the weak link of this 2v1. However he is able to be easily rezed by his teammate and without cleave I cannot secure the kill even with safe stomp and the enemy that is doing the rezing is good enough to pop stability each time so I cannot just interrupt him, cleave him, and scare him away from attempting the rez.

> >

> > The end result; even though I outskill the opponent, aside from stalling and creating a numbers advantage elsewhere on the map, I'm still in an overall unwinnable situation. The bad player who has no business trying to engage me in a fight due to the difference in skill is cushioned from failure and death because he has a numbers advantage.

> >

> > Without downstate; When I engage in the 1v2 rather than the enemy being repeatedly rezed they die outright the first time. Now I'm in a potentially interesting 1v1 and if I win that I've created a very important swing due to my skill and my capacity to handle these two opponents.

> >

> > And you can extrapolate this up and up. If there's an extremely skilled player, downstate reduced their capacity to swing the game in his favor.

> >

>

> Thing is... if the 2 people that rushed you are both offensive players or and neither of them is a support and one starts to try and rez the other and some how you still are unable to get both well... i dont know what to say. Cause i think as high as damage is right now you most certainly be able to do it.

> Its not always about just getting the interrupt depending on who is doing the rezzing. Some tims just do damage. IF you dont have enough damage to 2v1 in the current meta it means you are bunker or something and its probably a good thing you cant kill 2 players balance wise.

>

> IF a support player is part of the 2v1 then perhaps the ideal thing would be to go for them first as the other likely wont have the power to rez them if you have the dps.

A number of DPS builds can support reviving a downstate significantly better than others can. For example; Holosmith. Elixir S is a VERY powerful tool for reviving downed teammates. And Toss Elixir S is also a massively powerful tool for reviving teammates. So for example you are playing basically any variant of Mesmer or a Fresh Air Ele, once they stealth, because all your damage and phantasms require a target to cast and because all your auto attacks are deliberately under tuned you just can't stop the rez. Heck you're LUCKY if you score damage at all. You simply can't stop the rez.

> > 3. Downstate can feel extremely unfair.

> >

> > Let me bring you back to 1997 at my local arcade. This is a very, very small town so we still had a Street Fighter 2 cabinet as one of the most popular machines despite the game being close to 6 years old at the time. Now in Street Fighter 2 there is a hidden "Stun Meter." When this stun meter fills up due to enough damage to this stun meter, they are stunned. All attacks cause some damage to the stun meter, and some of them do a lot more damage by design. You probably know exactly what this looks like either due to playing Street Fighter 2 or through pop culture osmosis.

> >

> > At my arcade and I know _many others_ there was always a house rule; You don't hit the stunned opponent. Now people were fine with hit stun and combos. But there was something that felt fundamentally wrong about the actual stun / dizzy mechanic. A losing player, who is already been on the receiving end of damage, being made literally helpless felt unfair. It felt dirty. And so a lot of local places straight up decided "Sorry but we don't play that way around here."

> >

> > Downstate when forced into an outnumbered fight feels unfair. This enemy team already has an advantage, whether it is a roamer +1ing a fight or a weak link on your team being focused down a split second before you can focus down their weaklink. Because of the way it gives a side with the momentary advantage a BIGGER advantage than they already get just by having the bigger side, it feels fundamentally unfair to go up against. Because again like point 1 states, Downstate turns very close fights into massive All or Nothing blowouts.

>

> An out numbered fight is suppose to feel unfair thats why its called being out numbered. All aspects of an out numbered fight are going to feel unfair regardless of down state its going to be unfair. Down state is not an excuse or the reason why its unfair... its unfair because you are outnumbered. IF they had supports and you didnt get the supports then well start over and try again.

My point is that an Outnumbered Fight is already unfair, and downstate takes an unfair advantage and makes it an almost impossible advantage barring a severely extreme level of skill disparity. A normal game in a 2v1 a player might kill one player and then die if they are more skilled than their opponents. The idea of that is already very impressive enough on its own. The end result isn't the 2 that rushed the 2v1 get a massive advantage because both of them are alive now, but only a modest advantage as they have a teammate alive but both teams have suffered casualties. You know, the way a normal team based game works. If a fight is close the end results and rewards should be close. The result is a less snowbally game.

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Not that anyone asked but here's a list of DPS numbers on both auto attack chains on meta builds as well as a handful of relevant combos. On these assume that

> >

> > 1. Meta build. This means that for thieves, guardian and herald we're looking at Maurader amulet. For Warriors, Rangers, Soulbeasts, Reapers and Holosmiths we're looking at Demolisher amulet. For Weavers we're on sage with the meta build. For core Necromancer and Condition Guardian we're on Carrion. For Mirage we're on Deadshot. For Power mesmer we're on Berserker's.

> > 2. For most of these they are done on the Medium Target Golem. For a handful that have a long ramp up such as Condition Mirage and Weaver I also double tested it against the Indestructible golems to see how it compares with full ramp up potential and am posting the higher average after a number of tests. Because of condition mesmers and their high application of torment, I did also try testing against the moving target golem. Aside from scepter spamming it's ambush attack, even with high torment condition mesmer liked more stationary targets because it hit them more reliably. Mesmer projectiles are notably slow and have fairly poor tracking.

> >

> > These are the DPS numbers using arc dps, with some slight amount of noise as all these need to leave combat after finishing the kill or waiting for the combat break after getting distance from the Indestructible golem.

> >

> > Generally speaking I tested the auto attacks about 5 times and averaged them, and I tested a handful of basic combos you're likely to see in game about 5 times and averaged them. I also kept it to realistic builds that are being run right now and simple combos you're likely to see.

> >

> > How useful is this? To be honest I probably not very but I do love me some testing and numbers. Some builds react very differently when they're up against an actual player. For example a ranger pet might struggle to hit an actual moving player a decent portion of the time, but a necromancer against a real player is certain to have actual boons to corrupt and a lot more play making potential by debilitating and damaging their opponent.

> >

> > **Elementalist**

> > Fire Weaver Sword Autos in Fire Attunement: 1712

> > Fire Weaver Fire Attunement Glyph of Elemental Power and Primordial Stance: 3279

> > Fresh Air Weaver Scepter Autos in Air Attunement: 1661

> >

> > **Engineer**

> > Engineer Rifle Auto Attack: 1479

> > Photon Forge Auto: 2137

> > Photon Forge Auto with Quickness: 3328

> > Photon Forge Corona Burst Might stack into quickness autos: 4468

> >

> > **Guardian**

> > Guardian Greatsword: 2321

> > Guardian F1 Judges Intervention Whirling Wrath into Greatsword Autos: 3211

> > Guardian Sword: 2340

> > Guardian Power Scepter: 2151

> > Condition Guardian F1>Torch4>auto: 2481

> > Dragonhunter Longbow: 1565

> >

> > **Mesmer**

> > Condition Mirage Axe: 1492

> > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)

> > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202

> > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)

> > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465

> > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675

> > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984

> > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones with ambush spam: 1164

> > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones ambush spam on a moving target: 1439

> > Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498

> > Condition Mirage Pistol 4 into Staff Ambush spam: 2452

> > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170

> > Power Mesmer Sword Berserker's Amulet: 2190

> > Power Mesmer Berserker's Blurred Frenzy into Sword Autos: 3513

> > Power Mesmer GS burst combo (LOL): 16,400

> >

> > **Necromancer**

> > Power Reaper Axe: 1519

> > Power Reaper Build 10 vuln with auto then Ghastly Claws: 2642

> > Power Reaper Greatsword: 2715

> > Reaper's Shroud Reaper's Onslaught Autos: 4436

> > Reaper's Shroud Soul Spiral into Autos: 5822

> > Core Necromancer Scepter: 899

> > Condi Core Necromancer Death Shroud: 1803

> >

> > **Ranger**

> > Rock Gazelle: 1270

> > Smokescale: 670

> > Siamoth: 721

> > Owl: 769

> > Ranger Greatsword: 1774

> > Ranger Greatsword with Rock Gazelle: 2857

> > Ranger Quickening Zephyr into Maul into greatsword autos with Rock Gazelle: 4452

> > Axe Autos No Bounce: 1626

> > Axe Autos no bounce with Rock Gazelle: 2283

> > Ranger Longbow max range autos: 1464

> > Ranger Longbow max range Rapid Fire into autos: 1885

> > Ranger Longbow Max Range Rapid Fire into autos with Smokescale: 2615

> > Sic Em Soulbeast Merged Quickening Zephyr Rapid Fire into autos: 5232

> >

> > **Revenant**

> > Herald Sword: 2223

> > Herald Phase Traversal into Sword 4+5 then Auto Attacks: 5882

> > Herald Phase Traversal into Auto Attacks with Impossible Odds: 6576

> >

> > **Thief**

> > Daredevil Sword: 2523

> > Daredevil Pistol Whip Spam: 3361

> > Daredevil Dagger: 2483

> > Daredevil Shortbow: 3433 with bounces (I think its safe to assume 1144 without bounces, golem positioning makes this kind of difficult to test)

> > Daredevil Cluster Bomb spam: 2706

> > Deadeye Kneeling Rifle: 1937

> > Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Three Round Burst Spam: 7162

> > Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Spotter's Shot spam: 5095

> >

> > **Warrior**

> > Warrior Greatsword Auto Attacks: 2272

> > Warrior Arcing Slice into Greatsword Autos: 3158

> > Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Hundred Blades Arcing Slice right before the knockdown ends combo: 5157 ]

> > Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Arcing Slice then Hundred Blades: 7714

> > Spellbreaker Dagger: 2225

> > Warrior Rifle: 1305

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Can you do legend swap + sword 3 + IOdds for rev?

> Also do you have a way to record it or time each combo? Some of these I know come out way faster than others.

Might stack in glint ~8 might and fury > Legend Swap > Phase Traversal > Unrelenting Assault with Impossible Odds: 4465

When it comes to time length, I'm basically going off of how long it takes to kill the Medium Target Golem. The medium target golem has 18,140 health and 2,322 armor. So for example pistol whip spamming did 3361 dps on average. Pistolwhip spamming took 5.397 seconds to secure the 18,140 damage and kill the golem on average. The combo you asked for took 4.062 seconds to kill the medium target golem on average. Might stack into Legend Swap > Phase Traversal > Sword Autos killed the golem in 2.75 seconds on average. Ect. Ect.

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Zagerus.8675" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.)

> > Not to stray away from the original topic but, is there any way that we can take a gander at these professions ratings? Just for fun? I'm interested!

>

> There isn't right now.

[i require access to all developer knowledge!](

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> Warrior

> Warrior Greatsword Auto Attacks: 2272

> look fake to me everyone knows that warrior auto do 6k dmg

That is all in Damage Per Second.

And that is unaugmented. No bells and whistles. No quickness. No might stacking. That is true with anything labled as JUST an auto attack.

3158 dps opening with arcing slice and the might generation from mage bane tether.