mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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Oh. Nice. My nerf thief thread worked.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > > I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've [never](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123/#Comment_1112123) been a [defender](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1115066/#Comment_1115066) of Power Mesmer's burst.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
> > > > > > > > not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
> > > > > > > > This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You *never* get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.
> > > >
> > > > Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.
> > >
> > > Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.
> >
> >
> > This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.
> >
> > Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.
>
> Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.
"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.
> > > >
> > > > I've [never](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123/#Comment_1112123) been a [defender](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1115066/#Comment_1115066) of Power Mesmer's burst.
> > > >
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
> > > > > > not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
> > > > > > This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.
> > > >
> > > > It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.
> > >
> > > First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You *never* get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.
> >
> > Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.
>
> Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.
This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.
Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.
> >
> > I've [never](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123/#Comment_1112123) been a [defender](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1115066/#Comment_1115066) of Power Mesmer's burst.
> >
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
> > > > not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
> > > > This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died
> > >
> > > I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.
> >
> > It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.
>
> First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You *never* get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.
Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.
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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.
I've [never](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123/#Comment_1112123) been a [defender](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1115066/#Comment_1115066) of Power Mesmer's burst.
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
> > not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
> > This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died
>
> I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.
It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.
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> @"Zenix.6198" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Personally I think:
> >
> > * **Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.**
> > * **Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.**
> > * Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds**
> > * Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. **Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds**
> > * Shackling Wave: **Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1**. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
> > * Riposting Shadows: **Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15**
> > * Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds**
> > * Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
> > * Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds
> >
> > These changes all right here are VERY potent nerfs to meta Glint Shiro. Like very direct, very impactful nerfs that hit Glint Shiro in the ways I think the build is primarily unfair, namely that between it's overabundance of stun breaks along side it's impeccable defensive rotation it's a build that brings Team Fight Carry level damage while being functionally impossible to focus due to it's capacity to chain evades, blocks, and it's damage reversal.
> >
> > I'm personally not scared of Glint Shiro going forward.
>
> Im actually not sure about that.
> Their survivability took a (much needed) hit for sure, but the dmg nerfs seem kinda in line with the rest of the classes and for some skills even on the light side.
>
> Take deathstrike for instance. The scary part of this skill never was the initial port, but the flipover. And that "only" received a 15% cut.
> How big the shackling wave nerf is, is to be seen I suppose, since only the initial hit lost it's damage, but the secondary strikes didn't.
> The auto chain and #3 sword skills seem to be in line with the general -33% theme.
>
> A lot of Rev's future damage potential also hinges on their might uptime, which did get cut to be fair AND on how the sword #2 rework turns out.
> But overall....I'd say their damage nerfs seem to be pretty average compared to all the other classes changes.
>
I don't mind Glint Shiro revs doing a lot of damage. A lot of builds have the capacity to do a lot of damage like Core Guardian and Holosmith, Reaper and Core Warrior. My problem with Glint Shiro compared to other power builds that bring big damage is how nearly impossible it is to counter pressure them or stun them because on Live the second you look at them funny they:
Riposting shadows > dodge > dodge > unrelenting assault > riposting shadows > weapon swap > legend swap > dodge from sigil of energy > warding rift > facet of darkness+gaze of darkness > surge of the mists (potentially 2 seconds of you land the knockdown) > facet of light+infused light > force an enemy dodge with facet of chaos+chaotic release > natural dodge > warding rift > weapon swap > legend swap > unrelenting assault > riposting shadows
For like 25 seconds. A core guardian rolls into a team fight yeah they have the healing from Meditations and Virtue of Resolve and if they're REALLY in danger they can delay the focus for 3 seconds with Renewed Focus. But They aren't preventing you from focusing or counter attack them for like 25 seconds. Same with Holosmith they have the Photon Wall, Elixir S, Toss Elixir S. I never minded the big damage I just wanted a few more holes punched into their defensive options because their capacity to go super hard offensive and then nearly impenetrable defensive on the fly was just too high.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > > > > So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
> > > > > > > > > I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst *nearly* that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and *very* low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not just Backstab.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is *not* hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).
> > > > >
> > > > > So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.
> > > >
> > > > I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.
> > >
> > > I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.
> >
> > I get 9k from being hit by them.
>
> In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
Wanderer at the time, which is +560 toughness. I've had to switch from Wanderer to Deadshot which is +560 vitality because the +22% effective health from Wanderer doesn't prevent me from immediately being dropped into downstate by the new Shadow Arts thieves while the +33% effective health from Deadshot means even though I get hit for harder numbers but I'm consistently left with a few thousand HP to attempt to recover.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
>
> > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.
> > Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
> > Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
> > "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
> > His analysis is very accurate
>
> Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.
Reflect is stronger than projectile destruction, but countering both melee and ranged across an entire conquest node is better than countering just ranged.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > > So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
> > > > > > > I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst *nearly* that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and *very* low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.
> > > >
> > > > It's not just Backstab.
> > > >
> > > > I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.
> > > >
> > > > 6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.
> > >
> > > Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is *not* hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).
> > >
> > > So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.
> > >
> > > And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.
> >
> > I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.
>
> I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.
I get 9k from being hit by them.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
> > > > > I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?
> > > >
> > > > Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.
> > >
> > > I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst *nearly* that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and *very* low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.
> >
> > It's not just Backstab.
> >
> > I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.
> >
> > 6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.
>
> Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is *not* hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).
>
> So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.
>
> And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.
I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
> > > I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?
> >
> > Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.
>
> I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst *nearly* that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and *very* low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.
It's not just Backstab.
I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.
6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.
Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.
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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
> I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?
Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.
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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:
> > > I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".
> > >
> > > There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.
> >
> > Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.
> >
> > What do you think suddenly changed?
> >
> >
>
> All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no?
Not really because literally nothing on the current thief/daredevil kit is being touched to the degree.. say meta rev is.
Like right now thief gets a bit of a cooldown increase on Withdraw, a bit of a healing nerf on Escapists Fortitude, the 30% damage nerf everything else is getting, and that's it while other meta builds are eating stuff like;
> * **Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.**
> * **Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.**
> * Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds**
> * Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. **Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds**
> * Shackling Wave: **Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1**. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
> * Riposting Shadows: **Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15**
> * Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds**
> * Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
> * Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds
Thief is literally the most untouched class by the upcoming megabalance patch to the point where they've barely been touched at all and it's already so meta 6 of the top 10 are specifically maining Shadow Arts DP thief.
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> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:
> I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".
>
> There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.
Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.
What do you think suddenly changed?
-
Personally I think:
* **Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.**
* **Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.**
* Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds**
* Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. **Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds**
* Shackling Wave: **Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1**. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
* Riposting Shadows: **Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15**
* Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. **Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds**
* Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
* Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds
These changes all right here are VERY potent nerfs to meta Glint Shiro. Like very direct, very impactful nerfs that hit Glint Shiro in the ways I think the build is primarily unfair, namely that between it's overabundance of stun breaks along side it's impeccable defensive rotation it's a build that brings Team Fight Carry level damage while being functionally impossible to focus due to it's capacity to chain evades, blocks, and it's damage reversal.
I'm personally not scared of Glint Shiro going forward.
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If you aren't responding to something I've said can you trim me from the quotes so I don't get like 30 notifications and they're all literally nothing.
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> @"lighter.2708" said:
> tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow
>
> also yea i think escapist needs CD increase
Withdraw doesn't have stealth or a leap. It's just an evade. I find it annoying how uninterruptible it is, similar to why I've advocated for the Mirage heal to get an increased cast time. But right now it's scheduled for a cooldown increase up to 25 seconds up from 18 so that's a solid enough nerf.
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> @"Bazsi.2734" said:
> So if you don't like something, you nerf it to kitten regardless of how it performs in the meta. That's not something I could even consider doing, but each to his own... Have fun nerfing thief!
If there was a build that the only thing it could do was stand in base and every minute it would randomly select a player on the enemy team and fully kill them this build would both probably never be able to break Gold 2-3 but this build would still not deserve to exist. It wouldn't be meta, but it would be unfair and unhealthy. Somethings can be unhealthy without being good.
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> @"Bazsi.2734" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:
> > > I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.
> >
> > Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.
> >
> > Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.
> >
> > When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.
> >
> > I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.
> >
> > Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.
> >
> > I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.
>
> I don't really care for trait comparisons.
> Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.
>
> By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.
No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.
Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.
As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.
Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.
It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.
It puts any sort of condition build into a catch 22 where they need to attack you to kill you but any attempt to attack you risks retroactively negating the damage they already landed on you considering the sheer number of sources that can provide an evade that are all regenerating in the background: whether it's true Dodge rolls, initiative, their healing skill, a utility skill, or their elite skill.
No matter what you do you are at a disadvantage. There is no good option due to how passive this trait is combined with the overtuned cleanse capacity. You either stow weapons and thus don't kill the Daredevil or you keep attacking and don't kill the daredevil. It is text book unfair.
> Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.
I am far from the only person to call out Infiltrator's Strike and Return as being problematic and needing adjustments. Even thief mains like Vallun have suggested significantly more radical nerfs than what I have suggested like removing 300 range from both parts of the skill.
Compare:
Death's Retreat:
5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) Initiative
Damage: 127
Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal Effectiveness
Conditions Removed: 1
Distance: 600
Infiltrator's Arrow
6 Initiative
Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
Distance 900
Shadow Shot
4 Initiative
Damage: 481
Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.
Range 900
Infiltrator's Strike and Return
5 Initiative
Damage: 275
Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.
Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement Speed
Conditions Cleansed: 1
Range: 900+1200 = **2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.**
The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.
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> @"Bazsi.2734" said:
> I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.
Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.
Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.
When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.
I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.
Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.
I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.
-
> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
>
> > Please nerf:
> > **Infiltrator's Strike**
> >
> >Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds
>
> 'Kay.
>
> > **Escapist's Fortitude**
> >Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.
>
> You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.
Also nah, it's a catch 22 if you haven't already put enough condition damage to kill the daredevil you literally need to keep attacking them if you want to win the fight at which point you're faced with either retroactively nullifying your own damage or doing so little damage to be unable to keep up with their healing. Regardless of whether you've applied enough damage to kill the daredevil, the daredevil is free to attack you and if you try to retaliate you risk completely nullifying the entirety of your own damage output. If a teammate you have no control of tries to attack the daredevil they can completely nullify your damage even if you are smart enough to stow weapons. This isn't even hard tied to a deliberate activation of a dodge roll like Elusive Mind or to an actual mechanic / resource like warrior's cleanse on weapon swap. Literally all of their endurance, all of their initiative, their healing skill, and their elite skill is effectively a cleanse.
-
> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
>
> > Please nerf:
> > **Infiltrator's Strike**
> >
> >Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds
>
> 'Kay.
>
> > **Escapist's Fortitude**
> >Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.
>
> You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.
>
> > **Smoke Screen**
> > This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks.
>
> No. You aren't punished for standing in the field apart from pulsing blind, unblockable goes through it, and resistance mitigates it.There's nothing stopping you from contesting the point with a smoke screen on it, so there's no need to do either of those.
>
>
> > **Leeching Venoms**
> > Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.
>
> 'Kay.
>
[That's better than we usually do. ](
) -
> @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of **("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")**
> > > Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).
> >
> > It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.
>
> Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???
_Several thousand_ damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.
> A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.
> The warrior example use to be possible
> The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often
"Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally _every single time you enter stealth_ which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.
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> @"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of **("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")**
> Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).
It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.
Nerf Thief
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.
> **Additional changes**
> * Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
> * Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
> * Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
> * Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
> * Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
> * Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
> * Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2
>
>
> There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.
> -The Systems Team
Shadow arts is getting some more needed nerfs. Overall I'm pretty happy about this. I'd still like to see a bit of a trim to Infiltrator's Strike and the cleanse on Escapist Fortitude and I'd be pretty happy.