mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?
> > > >
> > > > Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.
> > >
> > > It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.
> >
> > If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.
> >
> > If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.
>
> My issue with this is saying that a trait shouldn’t benefit both power and condi. Does it provide too much life siphon? Should the siphon scale based on condi damage? Is this mechanic problematic?
Based on the preview for the balance patch both deadshot and wanderer amulets are being removed so there will be no amulet that gives both condition damage without providing power damage anyway. The damage should probably scale of condition damage surely, but with the amulet changes I think this is kind of a moot point practically speaking.
But we definitely shouldn't want a trait in a purely defensive line to be significantly boosting a power damage build's burst. This is like adding a 20% damage boosting trait to warrior's defense treat. It's just inappropriate and it's already causing problems. If you're venoms and you're shadow arts you should gain benefit from the designed synergy. If you aren't venoms and running Shadow Arts the synergy should be lost on you just like how all other utility boosting traits operate.
> And I’ll return to the question: if the auto attack and backstab coefficients are nerfed as indicated, is a bonus 2k damage (assuming all hits go through, given that venoms expire on misses) really all that OP?
I'd have to play the patched version to have a 100% certain answer. But I will say the coefficient nerf on backstab is less than the average 33% nerf towards all power skills so it will remain a very powerful power damage skill while many other skills will not, regardless of whether it is being boosted by the life siphon trait.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.
> > >
> > > Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?
> >
> > Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.
>
> It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.
If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.
If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.
>
> Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?
Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > > > I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.
> > > > > > Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
> > > > > > Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
> > > > > > "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
> > > > > > His analysis is very accurate
> > > > >
> > > > > Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.
> > > > >
> > > > > And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.
> > > >
> > > > the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
> > > > and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
> > > > In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.
> > >
> > > I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).
> >
> > Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.
>
> I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):
>
> Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.
> Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.
> Player 1 isn’t revealed.
>
> Edit:
>
> Either way, I don’t think it matters much to the argument. I agree the field should be a bit smaller and would adjust the cooldown to a more normal 30 seconds than the current planned 35.
>
Always revealed.
Player 1 is always revealed. If you reflect, it counts as your own attack and thus if you reflect an attack while stealthed, strike an opponent you will reveal yourself.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > >
> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.
> > > > Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
> > > > Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
> > > > "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
> > > > His analysis is very accurate
> > >
> > > Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.
> > >
> > > And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.
> > >
> > > I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.
> >
> > the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.
> > and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.
> > In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.
>
> I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).
Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.
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> @"saerni.2584" said:
> I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.
>
> I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.
>
> I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.
>
> For example:
>
> * Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
> * Venoms steal life as before
The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.
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Honestly core necro is looking to be one of the strongest builds in the game going forward based on both the complete eradication of damage on CC skills as well as the lowering of condition cleanses and healing in general.
Spectral walk is also one of the most loaded utilities in the game considering it's a; Stunbreak, 6x condition cleanses, swiftness and also a port back to the original location. It definitely deserves the +10 second cooldown nerf.
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While a lot of meta builds such as Glint Shiro, Fire Weaver, Spellbreaker, and Condition Mirage are scheduled to receive extremely heavy direct nerfs in addition to the general across the board damage nerfs listed in the preview, thief and Daredevil are currently my vote for the strongest builds in ranked and in ATs the problematic aspects of thief+daredevil are not being touched at the moment.
Please nerf:
Infiltrator's Strike.
Escapists Fortitude.
Smoke Screen.
Leeching Venoms.
In that order of priority.
**Infiltrator's Strike**
Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's return has been a sore spot for players for literally years now. Even thief mains such as Vallun have suggested nerfing Infiltrator's Strike and return by 300 range. I don't think I'm out of line by suggesting this skill chain needs some adjustment both in this current environment and in the new landscape presented by the balance patch preview where mobility for builds has been nerfed across the board.
Right now Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's Return combined cost 5 initiative for the equivalent of 2100 units of travel, swiftness, immobilize, and a condition cleanse. 5 Initiative is effectively a 5 second cooldown. At its face that much movement for that much initiative should show how out of tune the skill chain is. While I expect thief to have a very hit and run play style the way Sword 2 on thief is set up gives them basically unlimited capacity to hit and run.
And with Infiltrator's Return at only 2 initiative, even absolutely terrible thieves with no understanding of initiative management are going to be able to abuse the skill to always escape combat. Just statistically speaking the odds that even recklessly spamming will put you at below 1 initiative is very unlikely. So at most a thief player in danger only needs to wait one second to have the initiative to retreat potentially 1200 units of distance.
If I was in charge of balance I'd lower the cost of the Infiltrator's Strike down to 2 initiative and increase the cost of Infiltrator's Return to 4 initiative and the cast time on Infiltrator's Return to 0.5 seconds up from 0.25 seconds. This gives a slight decrease in value on the skill in general but not catastrophically so. As I said all that value for only 5 initiative on the skill chain is simply too much. And most importantly it makes it more difficult for thieves to dump all their initiative recklessly and have an escape route with Infiltrator's Return. And if they do use Infiltrator's Return, with a 4 initiative cost their capacity to immediately go on the offensive again is significantly reduced. And with average latency you would need to be a reaction time god to even hope to interrupt a 0.25s cast. At 0.5 second cast time on Infiltrator's return it still makes thieves very likely to escape combat, but not have functionally unstoppable capacity to escape combat.
**Escapist's Fortitude**
Escapist's Fortitude is being nerfed in terms of the healing. But right now the trait is absolutely busted in terms of condition cleansing. At a 1 second ICD, and the fact that sword thieves both SD and SP are reaching literally 30 seconds of evade across the first minute of combat, this effectively is a condition cleanse every 2 seconds when taking into account the cleanse, the ICD, and their capacity to evade. That is ridiculously out of tune with other trait based condition cleanses. Compare:
Engineer Transmute: Convert 3 conditions ever 48 seconds = a condition cleanse every 16 seconds
Warrior Brawler's Recovery: 1 condition cleanse every weapon swap on discipline = 1 condition cleanse every 5 seconds.
Mesmer Sympathetic Visage: 1 condition transferred to Phantasm on summon, the shortest cooldown of which is 12 seconds traited = 1 cleanse every 12 seconds.
Mesmer Auspicious Anguish: 2 condition cleanses when casting Distortion = 1 cleanse every 25 seconds.
Revenant Cleansing Channel: 1 Condition Cleanse on Legend Swap = 1 condition Cleanse every 10 seconds.
Smothering Aura: 1 cleanse on aura 2 cleanse on aura detonation, with focus Fire Aura that's 3 cleanses every 20 seconds = Cleanse every 6.666 (repeating of course) seconds.
Cleansing Sigil: Cleanse on weapon swap or every 9 seconds based on elemental attuning or engineer kit swap.
Even when you take into account that daredevils aren't evading every second, they still have a realistic capacity to evade every 2 seconds across a minute of combat which is still out of this world in terms of condition cleansing. Regardless of the healing nerfs, Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll. This will put it more in line with other trait based condition cleanses as well and the healing on the trait wouldn't be out of line or require a nerf either.
**Smoke Screen**
Again this is another trait being nerfed in the wrong way, or at least not to the degree it needs to be. Right now Smoke Screen effectively functions as an invulnerability field against a variety of builds. Currently at 7s duration on a 25 second cooldown it's at 28% uptime for a blinding field that also destroys projectiles. It's currently scheduled to go up to a 35 second cooldown which puts it down to 20% up time. This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks. Compare:
Feedback 240 radius 6 second reflect on a 32 second cooldown = 18% uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.
Wall of Reflection 10 second duration 30 second cooldown = 33.33% (repeating of course) uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.
Either: Nerf the radius so it doesn't encompass an entire conquest node similar to both Black Powder and the way the skill functioned before or
Increase the cooldown further due to how this utility counters both ranged and melee attacks potentially up to 40-45 seconds.
**Leeching Venoms**
It both gives thief stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed and provides life steal when they strike an enemy with a venom. This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief. It has this problem where it both gives a benefit for using certain utilities and clearly wants to encourage a certain playstyle (Venom Thief), but it also freely gives said combo so that any build can reap the full power of said trait. It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.
Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.
Edit:
The balance patch notes have been updated.
> **Additional changes**
> * Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
> * Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
> * Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
> * Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
> * Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
> * Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
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They already cut nearly every source of protection by 50% in duration and a ton of weakness sources by the same.
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Honestly whatever happens to weaver going forward in general, I think Fire Weaver is absolutely massacred.
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Through traits you can absolutely make still just HILARIOUS to read.
Not commenting on whether this aspect of it is over powered or not. But c'mon. Does looking at that not make you chuckle?
As a mesmer I've always hated steal because of Consume Plasma. But putting aside my biases the ability to cancel block stances, not even just punching through aegis but canceling true block stances, to be particularly offensive.
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> @"Quadox.7834" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Thief and Daredevil look poised to be really strong. Right now SP Daredevil and DP Core Thief are really bad. DP Core Thief is particularly degenerate. And while SP got some nerfs that'll cull some of their numbers, what makes DP Shadow Arts good didn't get touched at all, and if SP dies there's always SD. Larcenous strike, SD's bread and butter, didn't get touched.
> >
> > Necromancer and maybe Reaper look poised to be really strong. I think in a world where all damage goes does, shroud becomes massively more useful as a tool.
> >
> > Warrior and Spellbreaker still look poised to be really strong. Just don't even think about equipping a hammer.
> >
> > Power Mesmer will still be strong but I think it'll loathe how strong thieves will be. I think most mesmers will move to power core if the Mirage change goes through.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think Fire Weaver is dead. Just taken out back behind a shed and put down. It's remaining parts butchered and fed to unsuspecting school children at the school cafeteria who greedily devoured Friday "Sloppy Joe". And to be honest, I don't know what'll replace it.
> >
> > Had condition mirage not gotten the 50 endurance trade off, I think it would be one of the strongest builds still. Like I think there might be some potential for it to be workable? But I think condi mirage is probably dead.
> >
> > Still digesting the changes for Guardian, Rev, Engineer, and Ranger. But those first five I definitely stood out to me.
> >
>
> How core power mes with worse mobility, no stun, less shatter dmg, no mantra of pain spike, and with über thief in other team?
In terms of the nerfs directly to Power Mesmer, it gets of pretty light compared to other really good builds like Glint Shiro and Fire Weaver IMO. And Mesmer being good while thief being as good, better, and also the hard counter is just mesmer way of life at this point.
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I'm just going to repost what what I said in the main balance thread. But generally speaking if it has a proper large wind up and a cooldown I don't think a big hit that also CC's is remotely a problem in the game mode.
I do want to say that I understand the logic in nerfing CC skills heavily in the damage department, I think a lot of this is going too far with it to the point of ruining things like class identity.
For example: Prime Light Beam. Prime Light Beam is one of my favorite utility skills to have to play against. It's really cool, it fits with Holosmith really well thematically and gameplay wise. If I dodge it, I always feel like I gained a huge advantage in the fight. If I get tagged with it, there's always a wave of panic.
If I had any one complaint about the skill, the only thing I disliked was that it could be cast from stealth and since it has no projectile from stealth it is genuinely unavoidable. I really only wanted to see self revealed applied to the holosmith when they begin casting the skill so if they try to cast it from stealth I get to see the tell anyway.
I was fine with the damage. I was fine with the CC. I was fine with the flavor. This applies to other elites like Dragon Maw, Head Butt, ect. ect. Even nonelites like Wild Blow and Big Ol Bomb.
I think full on the point of balance patches is a massive increase in build diversity. We want to see MATs and one side might have a Greatsword/Dagger+Shield Spellbreaker on one side, and something that seems impossible with the current balance like a Hammer Berserker running Wild Blow. Hammer on warrior is all about having below average damage, little mobility, no defensive options but making up for it with heavy CC. If you do something like gut all the damage out of all the hammer skills that weapon kit will never be seen in game again. Like all the damage on the kit is gone I straight up think it will be outright impossible to score a single kill on any build ever if you have a weapon kit that literally just does not do damage the way you've done with warrior hammer now.
Warrior hammer, especially considering how it's;
1. Melee only
2. No movement skills outside of the modestly ranged burst
3. Has very little range outside of the cripple shockwave
4. Has mediocre DPS
5. Relies on it's high damage CC skills to actually do a reasonable amount of damage
Goes to show how not entirely well thought out the idea of gutting all damage from CC skills is. You'd have to balance it around doing like 6-7k damage auto attacks for it to have any chance of killing any players.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Shao.7236" said:
> > > Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
> > > * Steal 3 Boons
> > > * Interrupt
> > > * **Unblockable**
> > > * Instant cast
> > > Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.
> >
> > That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.
>
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Shao.7236" said:
> > > Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
> > > * Steal 3 Boons
> > > * Interrupt
> > > * **Unblockable**
> > > * Instant cast
> > > Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.
> >
> > That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.
>
> Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost *never* interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).
I'm shocked you don't understand how good being able to consistently, instantly, with no wind up or animation, interrupt block stances is.
For starters a lot of builds do not run traditional heals. Take Spellbreaker. Healing Signet unless you're a condition build is not a make or break skill to interrupt. Now let's say you're a thief you're plussing your spellbreaker (Or a mirage, or a weaver) fighting an enemy spellbreaker spellbreaker. Normally if you engaged the attack he'd run through a few skills, maybe a full counter, some dodges, and then try to enter the Block stance as soon as it was up. With Daredevil and Slight of Hand, the second he enters that block stance you and your warrior throttle his entire defensive rotation and he just dies.
Similar with Glint Shiro. One of the things that makes Glint Shiro so strong is that it currently has team fight carry damage while being able to delay being focused far greater than something like a Holosmith, or a Core Guardian, due to Glint Shiro's amazing defensive rotation that prevents it from taking damage for potentially up to 20 seconds straight if they're good on cooldown and energy when they start the evasion. You and your teamfight try to focus the Rev, he goes into his defensive rotation. He'll pop a few riposting shadows, and then swap to staff and go into Warding Rift. The second you see warding rift you can interrupt it, throttle his entire defensive rotation and gets focused down by you and your team and he dies.
And the thing is Jade Daggers isn't really worth interrupting for the low amount of healing it provides and the Glint Heal is also with average latency functionally impossible to interrupt. Like even with instant cast interrupts if you can consistently interrupt the Facet of Light precast for the glint heal at 0.25 second cast speed with the average latency of 50-75 ms on really good internet connections you're a reaction time god, even with an instant cast. Like I can barely cancel cast my own Facet of Light with my own stow weapon and I'm the one casting it.
The Mirage heal is also largely uninterruptible due to being able to be 100% covered by mirage cloak. So again, the scepter block is the clear choice as that's literally scepter's only real source of damage and defense and if they're blocking they aren't going to evade so it basically guarantees plasma. Before as a Mirage if you see a daredevil charging your way while you're in a fight a lot of times the only way to stop a steal is the scepter block while you jump onto a no port.
So with all these meta builds, the block stance is the clear choice on where to steal to maximize you and your teammate's capacity to kill these targets.
Not to mention, Daredevils right now are running Pistol Offhand. If I can consistently catch healing skills with Magic Bullet at 0.5 second cast time and travel distance, you can certainly interrupt any heal skill with the far more spammable Head Shot which only has travel time (And maybe an unlisted 0.25 second cast time? It definitely comes out faster than Magic Bullet does, but even inside a target's hit box is definitely slower than the literally instant Mantra of Distraction). Headshot's travel speed is also significantly faster than Magic Bullet as well.
Like who both has a lot of stability and a traditional interruptable healing skill they might try to cover with stability? Fire weaver doesn't have a traditional healing skill but they don't have a block stance so it's a moot point. Firebrand have the healing mantra which you can interrupt the channel but not the mantras so that like half counts. Like maybe just rangers at this point, maybe Core Necro and Reaper. Holosmith (Who don't have anywhere near as much stab as they used to). So right now it really is largely just rangers who you might have a choice on whether to interrupt the block stance or the healing skill depending on whether you've seen them recently use the healing skill or not.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > Nah.
> >
> > Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
> > Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.
>
> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > Nah.
> >
> > Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
> > Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.
>
> It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).
Since the Daredevil rework we've seen one degenerate build after another clog up ranked first Condition SD to Staff+Staff to Pistol Whip. Now we're only seeing core thieves again because the Shadow Arts rework and the poison life steal trait allowed for a more degenerate build to exist; perma stealth one shot DP.
The 5 second cooldown on swipe was not make or break. Thieves just kneejerk rebelled despite the Daredevil rework making the trait line significantly more powerful by compressing traits so you can get everything good in the specialization with out the previous hard choices, and of course unblockable swipe.
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> @"Shao.7236" said:
> Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
> * Steal 3 Boons
> * Interrupt
> * **Unblockable**
> * Instant cast
> Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.
That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.
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Things that should happen to Mirage and to a lesser extent core mesmer irrespective of trade off.
1. Dodge On Stun Should be removed.
2. Condition damage from Clone Autos should be rolled into the mesmer itself.
3. Infinite Horizon clones should follow the above principal, with Infinite Horizon providing a damage boost to the Mirage's own ambush attack based on the clones the mirage currently has.
This will cull a lot of the main problems with how condition mirage current operates, namely how it kites around and as long as it keeps clones alive they will grind down opponents with chip damage while the mirage can just dodge incoming damage, doesn't even need to ambush, but it's clones will ambush too. Even if you have no clones you'll make a clone that ambushes and damages the target for you.
Staff/scepter mesmer/mirage is fine for it to be a very potent defensive zoner that kites opponents while debilitating them with conditions. But it should be 100% the one committed to doing it's own damage outside of phantasms, which currently operate like any other weapon skill just with unusual 3rd party delivery mechanisms and are only an issue for one attack.
And mirage should have a trade off, but said trade off shouldn't run so completely counter to what the specialization is and is supposed to be.
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> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > TLDR:
> > 1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.
> Maybe? more on that below.
> > 2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.
> Understood, but more on that below.
> > 2. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.
> Not on board with this. When they were designed to be core+, people were all over asking for core to be gutted to balance them, or lamenting how core was useless. Defined weakness is fine.
Wanted to come back to this to add a few extra points.
Let me put it this way;
Just swapping the profession mechanic skills in and of themselves for different ones does not make it a proper trade off. If we look at the core capabilities of the class; what can you do in terms of damage, what can it do in terms of healing, what can it do in terms of mobility, what can it do in terms of defense, it's not tinkering with Profession Skills that makes it a good trade off, though that is certainly an option.
The examples I give are druid, which 100% of the elite spec pigeon holes it into healing that no matter how you build it, you can never build one that has the damage capabilities of a core ranger let alone soul beast. Just taking druid means you gain more healing than a core ranger, but you have less damage just based on the weapon, traits, and utilities you get, even though pre-drawback it just gave ranger an F5 mechanic on top of their other profession mechanics.
Holosmith, despite having a "drawback" according to Arenanet's definition, is a badly designed elite spec because while it gives it higher damage and mobility potential the traits and utilities means it also has higher healing, active defenses, stability, than what a core engineer is capable on top of that.
While drawbacks can and often are appropriate (I think the Spellbreaker drawback is a beautifully designed one), it's not always appropriate or necessary to have a drawback with certain more carefully designed elite specializations.
If the capabilities of a core profession look something like this:
Then elite specs should be doing something like this:
And sometimes you can achieve healthily that with certain drawbacks. Sometimes drawbacks aren't necessary. That's what I'm trying to explain.
> > 3. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.
> Evasive and condition oriented yes. Mobile I doubt. In addition to losing flat sturdiness, there should also be mechanical situations that they cannot just cover with cloak or distortion whenever they want, as long as they have endurance.
Literally half of Mirage's utilities are blinks; Illusory Ambush, Mirage Advance, and Jaunt. In fact when Mirage was first playable during the demo weekend one of the main complaints from my first impressions is that so many of the utilities were boring blinks.
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Thief and Daredevil look poised to be really strong. Right now SP Daredevil and DP Core Thief are really bad. DP Core Thief is particularly degenerate. And while SP got some nerfs that'll cull some of their numbers, what makes DP Shadow Arts good didn't get touched at all, and if SP dies there's always SD. Larcenous strike, SD's bread and butter, didn't get touched.
Necromancer and maybe Reaper look poised to be really strong. I think in a world where all damage goes does, shroud becomes massively more useful as a tool.
Warrior and Spellbreaker still look poised to be really strong. Just don't even think about equipping a hammer.
Power Mesmer will still be strong but I think it'll loathe how strong thieves will be. I think most mesmers will move to power core if the Mirage change goes through.
I think Fire Weaver is dead. Just taken out back behind a shed and put down. It's remaining parts butchered and fed to unsuspecting school children at the school cafeteria who greedily devoured Friday "Sloppy Joe". And to be honest, I don't know what'll replace it.
Had condition mirage not gotten the 50 endurance trade off, I think it would be one of the strongest builds still. Like I think there might be some potential for it to be workable? But I think condi mirage is probably dead.
Still digesting the changes for Guardian, Rev, Engineer, and Ranger. But those first five I definitely stood out to me.
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> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > TLDR:
> > 1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.
> Maybe? more on that below.
> > 2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.
> Understood, but more on that below.
> > 2. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.
> Not on board with this. When they were designed to be core+, people were all over asking for core to be gutted to balance them, or lamenting how core was useless. Defined weakness is fine.
> > 3. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.
> Evasive and condition oriented yes. Mobile I doubt. In addition to losing flat sturdiness, there should also be mechanical situations that they cannot just cover with cloak or distortion whenever they want, as long as they have endurance.
> > 4. Mirage should keep 2 bars of endurance and lose -300 vitality, which makes more sense for mirage both thematically and gameplay wise than it ever did for scrapper. They maintain evasiveness but when hits land they matter more.
> I'm not on board with this, but-
> > 5. Two Clone Limit is a far smarter change than one dodge roll bar.
> Fair.
> > 6. Dodge on stun still needs to go.
> Fair. If it goes we don't need this endurance reduction, and then the 300 vitality reduction is fair game. Clones can even be kept the same.
>
>
> > @"Quadox.7834" said:
> > Everyone: Infinite Horizon is the problem with mirage and must be reworked!
> > Anet: *Nerfs renewing oasis, mirage cloak, and dune cloak*
>
> I don't know why they seem to be just plain avoiding that. It would have fixed all of the problems I can see with the class as it stands.
>
> Regarding Evasion:
>
> Cannn mirages just focus on chaining evade mirrors? I know the evasion shave seems like a lot , but there's a pretty sizable avenue for creating mirage mirrors that you can chain into for more evasion. Even jaunting into them would work. Mirror chaining seems like it would be the apex of mirage gameplay and it's pretty skillful at that.
>
> Whatever gets picked, as long as mirages cant just panic press at least __one__ of those options they normally use when they get cced, that is fine. The fix proposed needs to address that. If you just shave vitality off them, it does nothing to people that will just panic press their non-utility resources to get out of a situation they should have avoided to begin with, especially with cc itself not doing any damage up front. If anything, they have more of a window now to avoid damage, and that needs to be limited __somehow__.
>
> I'll avoid being petty regarding this because I don't want the class to __outright die/be unplayable.__ I do think, though, that mirage mirrors would help fix the problem that one dodge bar offers and people just seem to be ignoring them.
If the change goes through if Mirage is going to have any hope they're going to have to switch from the Protection on dodge trait into Desert Distortion where Distortion turns your clones into Mirror. But even then that and the other Mirror utilities don't really compare to just having a dodge roll. For starters, they all require preparation. None of them are a proper replacement for seeing an attack coming and being able to react to it. They also don't last super long 8 seconds. It's not like some of the thief preparations aside from Shadow Portal that last 300 seconds. And even if there was some kind of mechanic that spawned a mirror in combat while in combat every 10 seconds that simulates having a dodge roll, racing to a mirror before you opponent connects whatever attack they are throwing at you still isn't a replacement for a dodge roll where as soon as you understand an attack is heading your way you can react to dodge it. This is triply true if they're spending a Jaunt to get to it.
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> @"reikken.4961" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"reikken.4961" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:
> > > > > actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense
> > > > >
> > > > > with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down
> > > >
> > > > Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.
> > >
> > > Sure. however, the uptime they do have has more practical value in several ways.
> > > teleports and target breaks and ~~stealth~~ buy time in between hard defensive options
> > Meta condi mirage is not running stealth. Teleports and target breaks are what helps keep condi mirage meta in the face of it's lower evade up time compared to other popular builds.
> >
> > > and mirage can attack while defending, so defending doesn't result in lost offensive pressure
> > > compare to weaver for example, where a weaver using riptide poses exactly zero threat and can be attacked or forced to burn another defensive cooldown immediately
> >
> > Currently so can all of the builds I listed.
> >
> > Riptide into Earthen Vortex? Maybe. A fire weaver using Primordial Stance in fire and then double dodging, both dodges also pulse out fire condi blasts in themselves, poses a ton of threat. A fire weaver can lay down fire vortexes and flame walls, and then dodge, and is a threatening / zoning presence. A thief in dagger storm, or casting Flanking Strike or Pistol Whip evades is very threatening. A warrior bull's charging is very threatening. A warrior's normal dodge roll is threatening and crits as hard as the meta condi mirage ambushes while also being unblockable right now. A Rev unrelenting assaulting is very threatening. A rev pressuring you while covering himself with Infuse Light is very threatening.
>
> Sure. And that would be a problem, but all of those skills are explicitly getting nerfed (by which I mean nerfed harder than the global -33% damage)
> riptide and earthen vortex are getting huge cooldown increases, primordial stance burning is getting cut in half, dagger storm damage is cut by 40% (relative to the global -33%. total cut of 60%), reckless dodge damage cut by 50% (relative), etc
>
> However, this does make me realize that unlike every other class, rev is getting no cuts to its heal skills.
> edit: probably because infuse light is the main heal skill, and that scales off of damage, which is going down
And outside of the trade off mirage/mesmer are seeing nerfs as well.
Phase Retreat: 2s Longer Cooldown
Illusory Counter: 4s Longer Cooldown
Axes of Symmetry: 5 Second Longer Cooldown.
Blink: 5 Second Longer Cooldown
Phantasmal Duelist: Traited bleed Duration cut by 66%
Sharper Images: Bleed Duration cut by 60%
Not to mention the global purging of Expertise amulets is going to hit Condition Mesmer the hardest because it's the only class that ever really played with them right now.
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> @"reikken.4961" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"reikken.4961" said:
> > > actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense
> > >
> > > with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down
> >
> > Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.
>
> Sure. however, the uptime they do have has more practical value in several ways.
> teleports and target breaks and ~~stealth~~ buy time in between hard defensive options
Meta condi mirage is not running stealth. Teleports and target breaks are what helps keep condi mirage meta in the face of it's lower evade up time compared to other popular builds.
> and mirage can attack while defending, so defending doesn't result in lost offensive pressure
> compare to weaver for example, where a weaver using riptide poses exactly zero threat and can be attacked or forced to burn another defensive cooldown immediately
Currently so can all of the builds I listed.
Riptide into Earthen Vortex? Maybe. A fire weaver using Primordial Stance in fire and then double dodging, both dodges also pulse out fire condi blasts in themselves, poses a ton of threat. A fire weaver can lay down fire vortexes and flame walls, and then dodge, and is a threatening / zoning presence. A thief in dagger storm, or casting Flanking Strike or Pistol Whip evades is very threatening. A warrior bull's charging is very threatening. A warrior's normal dodge roll is threatening and crits as hard as the meta condi mirage ambushes while also being unblockable right now. A Rev unrelenting assaulting is very threatening. A rev pressuring you while covering himself with Infuse Light is very threatening.
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> @"reikken.4961" said:
> actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense
>
> with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down
Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.
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Someone call the police and ask them to do a wellness check on Grimjack.
Nerf Thief
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"saerni.2584" said:
> > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > > > > > I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.
> > > > > > > > Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.
> > > > > > > > Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space.
> > > > > > > > "clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.
> > > > > > > > His analysis is very accurate
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.
> > > > > > I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?
> > > > > > > And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.
> > > > > > That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
> > > > > > >**They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln**.
> > > > > > More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.
> > > > >
> > > > > You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.
> > > > Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is
> > >
> > > If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?
> > Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?
>
> So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining? You don’t have to wait out the field, I wouldn’t wait. But I have a couple of abilities that can play around the field and if I need to I can just use a defensive or two.
>
> I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op.
Smoke screen was only changed from a line to a ring field back in July. At which point it went from a line that could bisect a conquest node to a field that could encompass an entire node. Condition daredevil was better/easier than core DP especially since the changes that super charged DP didn't happen since November.