mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.
Ben tried to warn us shit was going to suck.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.
> > > > >
> > > > > The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?
> > > > >
> > > > > Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.
> > > >
> > > > And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.
> > > >
> > > > Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.
> > >
> > > Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.
> >
> > That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.
>
> Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".
>
> If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.
Again, you're a fucking pedant.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.
> > >
> > > The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.
> > >
> > > Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?
> > >
> > > Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.
> > >
> > > Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.
> >
> > And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.
> >
> > Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.
>
> Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.
That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.
>
> The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.
>
> Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?
>
> Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.
>
> Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.
Scrapper also gets an additional -150 vitality trade off in addition to it's loss of it's elite toolbelt skill.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.
>
> The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.
>
> Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?
>
> Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.
>
> Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.
And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.
Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut
>
> That..... that's the definition of a trade-off. Getting a bonus for one thing (unblockable) as compensation for another thing (range cut). That, that's a trade! You have traded unblockable for range.
>
> Is English not your first language? "Trade-off" doesn't mean "make weaker", it just means "exchange one thing for another thing".
>
> Whether or not you consider a trade-off to be stronger or weaker, is irrelevant. The trade is still there.
>
> Easiest example is Core Necro vs Reaper. Reaper gives up Death-Shroud, in exchange for Reaper-Shroud. Whether you think Reaper-Shroud is stronger than Death-Shroud, or not, is irrelevant. The trade-off is there.
>
> The example above with Reaper is actually the example ANet themselves used to explain what a trade-off is. If you don't think it counts, then, you're wrong. If you don't think that giving up Skill X to get Skill Y is a trade-off, you're wrong.
>
> Trade
> (verb)
> to exchange something, or to stop using or doing something and start using or doing something else instead
It's not a trade off when they're getting multiple things in exchange for one thing. You aren't just trading range on steal for unlockable. You're trading range on steal for unblockable, AND a third dodge bar and dodge rolls that are inherently superior to traditional dodge rolls. You're getting 3 things in exchange for 1.
That's not a trade. It's buy 1 get 2 free.
Deadeye should get -50% endurance generation on top of swipe losing unblockable. That would be a lot more even.
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Still no..
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> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:
> > > Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:
> > >
> > > 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.
> > > 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.
> > >
> > > Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.
> > > Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.
> > > And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.
> >
> > Holosmith has never been mentioned as scheduled for additional trade off not once by Arenanet. By their measure Holosmith gives up one skill that isn't even that good, therefore it has a trade-off. Same with Firebrand.
> A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now
> For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.
>
Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit.
Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues.
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Open World I think between Chronomancer and Mirage memser is crazy good fun. Chronomancer works well in raids and Mirage works well on a couple of fights.
The problem is that support Chronomancer sucks in 5 man content, and mesmer as a whole sucks in PvP and WvW.
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Cuilan.7091 plays a mean scrapper. Might be worth asking him how he does it.
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> @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:
> Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:
>
> 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.
> 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.
>
> Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.
> Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.
> And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.
Holosmith has never been mentioned as scheduled for additional trade off not once by Arenanet. By their measure Holosmith gives up one skill that isn't even that good, therefore it has a trade off. Same with Firebrand.
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Revenant loses Ancient Echo. Holosmith loses their elite tool belt skill.
Which goes to show how ridiculously out of whack the whole implementation of "trade offs" has been when compared to what Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid suffer when taking their elite specs.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > Im lucky the video that never existed got removed? Yeah, right. Here is the fun thing: I can prove, with ease, that he didnt. Or rather, not without you having a ton of vulnerability *and* him having a ton of might stacks. Even on a light armour class with 0 toughness, you would not even come close to 13k. Remember, Backstab only got nerfed by 25%, and it hits for 4-5k at most nowadays. So how do you think 25% extra damage would up that by 300%?
> Yeah in case you didn't know vids get removed on twitch after a certain period of time.
> Just to make you feel bad I just found the video I was talking about on his youtube channel, **enjoy your no-clue about PvP** and the 14k backstab :
> 17:38
> [
)>
> Ho and you can even see how everyone spend his life low life in the funny old meta, just look at misha life bar.
>
> I feel bad for your, like really. Again go play PvP instead of posting non-sense here please.
>
I was pretty open about Shadow Arts Core DP having too high of a burst at the time and even made a thread about it. But my point still stands that you can address that build on an individual level without throwing the baby away with the bathwater.
Also in that rev montage he played power rev multiple times and could not manage to kill a single target on his own.
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To actually engage with the topic as a whole it actually isn't that simple.
For starters let's look at weapon kits. Is the kit primarily melee or is it ranged? If it's melee it logically deserves higher damage than ranged. Does it cleave? How many targets? If it's ranged does it only strike one target? Does it pierce? Does it bounce? How long is the range? Regardless of melee or ranged how much AoE potential does it have? What about defensive options? How fair is the weapon set, does it's biggest damage dealing attacks have clear tells? Does it have a lot of evades, blocks, or stealth? What about mobility? Does the weapon provide a lot of utility like boons or healing? What about profession mechanics as a whole? One of the things with thieves is that no matter what weapon set and stat set they have always been the hardest class to kill. What about necromancers who have a second health bar to absorb damage and a lot of their damage and killing potential comes from corruption skills?
It's actually not that simple. All of these questions are things to consider when balancing any skill in the game.
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> @"Koen.1327" said:
> > @"bravan.3876" said:
> >
> > Ok so what justifies the one dodge nerf then in your view? I don't get your argumentation then, when you didn't mean Mirage has too much with 2 dodges? When Mirage now gets "outdodged" by all classes (pre patch by 6 already) even though it now is limited to take every dodge and defense skill it can get, Mirage is more limited in utilies and also more pressured into axe and instead blink now has 2 mandatory utilities to use. And those do not even compensate the endurance dodge because ambushes do not activate on Blurred Frenzy and Axe 3 and in the meta build without the mirrors on f4 trait not even on f4.
>
> not sure if you quoted the wrong person but i never suggested nerfing to one dodge lol
> all im saying is condi mirage is just fine for ranked regardless of its meme like one dodge
>
> **mes and thief mains probably the most pessimistic players in this game or on this forum**
> compare this to core guard or dh in ranked which have never even been meta - pretty much 0 cry on this forum
>
That's necros and you know it.
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I got 22.5 seconds. But also mirage is running Signet of Illusions and Sword to deal with the nerf to their active defense uptime. If you wanted to run something like axe or staff/staff without signet of Illusions you're looking at 16s.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> @"UNOwen.7132" :
> We clearly don't play the same game.
> Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.
>
> @"mortrialus.3062" :
> Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away.
> What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.
> So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.
Lol I MEAN
For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again.
Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow.
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> @"Koen.1327" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"Koen.1327" said:
> > > > @"dronte.3416" said:
> > > > > @"pacwax.3402" said:
> > > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill.
> > > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder.
> > > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer.
> > > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf.
> > > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back.
> > > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown..
> > > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds.
> > > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge.
> > >
> > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left?
> > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge
> > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before)
> >
> > -50% endurance
> > 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2
> > 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one
> > what do you mean more defensive options bro xd
>
> alright "options" is ofc wrong because before the patch you could pick the same but then with lower cd
> just currently in the kit there is more than just sc2, dist and dodges
> vigor uptime is also much less relevant cuz u don't use it so much offensively but if you want to you can still pick chaos and have 100% vigor most of the time
>
I haven't crunched the numbers post patch but before the megabalance thread the, at the time, meta Chaos Staff Scepter Mirage had 26 seconds of active defenses across the first minute of combat. Spellbreaker, ranger and holo were at 30 seconds, Pistol Whip Thief and Glint Shiro were at 35 seconds and Fire Weaver was at 39s. And aside from Sword Weaver who deserved the biggest hit mesmers active defenses got hit harder than any of them.
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> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> Necro having access to 30k+ life with shroud is more then enough that they dont need blocks or evade frames....if you cant generate enough life force in the moments you need it, play better or change your build.
It's actually more when you factor in the 50% damage reduction while in Death Shroud and Reaper's Shroud.
So on Carrion Amulet even without healing a necro has close to 70,000 effective health while in shroud.
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"Koen.1327" said:
> > > @"dronte.3416" said:
> > > > @"pacwax.3402" said:
> > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill.
> > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder.
> > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer.
> > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf.
> > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back.
> > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown..
> > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds.
> > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge.
> >
> > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left?
> > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge
> > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before)
>
> -50% endurance
> 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2
> 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one
> what do you mean more defensive options bro xd
You can run all stealth utilities it'll be fine dude I'm sure no one will complain about that either.
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> @"viquing.8254" said:
> LOL dude, when you have more telegraphed skills than opponent have counter, when you have unblocage thing to land them, when you can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee, when you have plethora os sustain, should I continue or you can't get something this simple ?
Unless it's dedicated support vs. dedicated support every build should have more offensive skills that will eventually overwhelm the target's defenses and sustain should the target fail to avoid them.
And it isn't just a matter of which active defenses you have. You also have basic game capacity to kite and line of sight out of dangerous skills. In fact, builds having more than enough defensive skills whether it's evades, blocks, cleanses, stealth, mobility, alongside healing to avoid and survive every attack launched at them is eons more toxic than a faster paced more deadly meta.
To keep going with my street fight analogy, Zangief has a higher health value than Ryu and can survive more attacks. But he isn't effectively unkillable and repeatedly popping back to full health faster than you can damage him.
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Mesmer and Warrior in SPvP. Easy.
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> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense.
> > >
> > > Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here.
> >
> > You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing.
>
> Sry but you are either not able to read or to understand, i do not care at this point you are not constructive at all and i am not in the mood to waste more time with you.
> "when stripped of IH" yes that is exactly the point rofl... holy cow...
IH's main problem was that clones could be activated to do passive damage without the mirage needing to perform the ambush attack themselves. Not the damage. Not the animation. And not the skills. If IH was changed to "When you ambush attack your clones ambush with you" or "Increase Your Ambush's effectiveness based on the number of clones you have" would largely have fixed the trait.
Again, you have a very specific vendetta against the staff and scepter ambushes for no reason and conditions just in general and I'm sick of seeing it bog down literally every thread. They are beyond fairly designed. The scepter ambush is a long channel that's only a bit stronger than auto attacking even with 3 clones and IH, and the majority of the animation lies outside of Mirage Cloak due to the length of the cast making it plenty interruptible. And Chaos Vortex had a long channel that left a lot of it able to be interrupted and with an overly fair projectile that you can literally circle strafe around.
Your suggestions are nonsense stuff like "instead of Chaos Vortex being an attack it should just apply cripple" and the like.
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> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you.
> >
> > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense.
>
> Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here.
You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing.
Where are the trade offs of herald and holo?
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut
> > >
> > > Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.
> >
> > ? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.
> > thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.
>
> he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :)
Just yesterday Sind was criticizing his own play because it would have been way better to Swipe into a Herald's Crystal Hibernation than we he used it earlier in the fight.