mortrialus.3062

Like I said, Holo should have a -20-33% healing penalty to force it into a high risk high reward playstyle.

Not a fan of just removing all of the toolbelt skills, it just doesn't create the sort of deliberate asymmetry good balance works to implement.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> > > >

> > > > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

> > >

> > > I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

> > >

> > > You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

> > >

> > > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> > >

> > > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> > >

> > > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

> >

> > Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

>

> Just because something saw use *before*, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> >

> > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

>

> I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

>

> You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

>

> However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

>

> The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

>

> Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> > >

> > > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

> >

> > Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

> >

>

> Your math is off. It would go to 4515 at 25%, and below that at 33%. Thats a lot. You could make it work, but at that point, why would I ever bother playing Holo over Scrapper or Core?

You're not counting the regeneration.

Also yeah you can make it work, why you'd play Holo over core and Scrapper is the higher damage Holo would provide. That's the point. There'd be clear strengths and weaknesses. Core would be an allrounder that doesn't necessarily excel but also don't have clear weaknesses. Holo would have high damage and mobility but less sustain. Scrapper would have high support and defense but poor mobility and damage. The reason you'd pick one of them is by making a conscious decision on what you value and what you want to do and what actual strengths and weaknesses you're going to have to pick and choose.

>

> > Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

> >

>

> Which youre also hitting, and also isnt that much. And Core Engineer has as well. And remember, I said 50-100. Its closer to 50, and its not a burst heal like healing skills, and something that isnt terribly controlable. The Holo utilities *were* good. They all got nerfed, one way or another, and now *arent* good. And no, if Grenade Kit and Elixir U somehow werent meta, would just see other kits or elixirs slotted in. Or Gadgets. We would not see Exceed utilities.

>

> > Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

> >

>

>

> > This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

> >

>

> Holosmith wasnt an issue for most of PoF though. And yes, it had higher damage, because pre-patch damage was higher. Duh. The problem is damage is too low right now. Fixing Holo is as simple as putting damage back in the game because its 20-30% below the lowest it has ever been, and as a result the concept of a "bunker" has been rendered meaningless because even a glass cannon is now a bunker.

Holosmith was a nonstop issue throughout Path of Fire as consistently one of the strongest builds in the game, and repeatedly hitting moments where it was THE strongest build in the game. The only time Holosmith wasn't the best Engineer spec was when Scrapper's Gyro rework made it functionally unkillable to anything unless the build could dump 30k power damage within a 2 second stun window. People got legendary on Holo with no weapons equipped. Holo being able to simultaneously rip people apart in seconds and being able to shrug off and then snap from 20% to full health and completely reset the fight every 20 seconds was never not a problem throughout PoF. You undo the megabalance and it'll still be doing that.

> Holosmith is supposed to be a sidenoding bruiser. It requiring a dedicated support makes absolutely no sense. You also severely overestimate how easy it is to play (its still an Engineer, and you do need to juggle heat properly), and its sustain is nothing special. Its safe because right now *everyone* is safe. Damage is too low, so no one ever dies in a 1v1, not even the glass holo. Also its "reliable stealth access" is a 45 second cooldown 3 second stealth, that while less bad when used in-combat than thief stealth, still aint great. They can still hit ya.

Holosmith, a side noder with the AOE damage to carry team fights and the mobility to roam and +1 effectively.

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> My rework is simple.

>

> -Mirage gets back 2 dodges.

>

> -Dodge doesn't apply Mirage Cloak anymore, so you cannot use dodge while CC.

>

> Replace F4 Distortion with Mirage Cloak.

> Instead of using dodge to proc Mirage Cloak for ambush and traits, you now have it on the F4 maybe with a 15-20 seconds cooldown, you press F4 and you gain Mirage Cloak and that's it.

>

> Same as Chrono have Contiuum Split and lost Distortion.

>

> You rework is more complex than searching for the proof of God's existence.

>

> Keep it simple.

Mirage Cloak would need to have a 9.25 second cooldown on this system maintain similar levels of evade frames that distortion provides.

> @"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

>

damage it has consistently muscled scrapper out of the meta

> what? Scrapper is much stronger than holo in pvp/wvw right now

> Holo is more of pve spec, but you can use it as pvp too

>

>

>

>

What universe are you living in where Holos aren't consistently 20-40% of ranked representation and weren't on close to every single MotA team?

Last MAT every team TeaPot spectated including both finalists had Holos. Not scrappers.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

>

> As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

Elixir H would go from healing for 6020 to 4560. Good Holos could still make that work, it'll just be harder.

Plus there's the inherent sustain of the Alchemy tree in general. And 100 HPS is effectively 30-50% the HPS of a healing skill. And the Holo utilities are good and have seen plenty of use historically, if grenade kit and Elixir U weren't meta it would probably be Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena.

Holosmith should be the type of build that really benefits from the presence of a dedicated support like PoF Scourge and Power Herald did. It shouldn't be this super self sufficient jack of all trades master of all trades monster that can do everything and is as easy to play as they come on top of being extremely safe because of it's very high sustain and reliable access stealth. It should have weaknesses in the fundamental capability of the spec unique from core engineer's and scrapper. And if it gets more damage snd mobility, which it does, the obvious hole in it's capabilities should be is it's sustain.

This was a problem with Holosmith all throughout PoF, it isn't new to the megabalance. Remember pre-megabalance Holosmith had even higher damage then it does now on top of absurd levels of sustain, being able to easily get 8-11k healing every 20 seconds from healing turret before the cooldown adjustment.

Holosmith is probably the absolute worst example of a Core+ style elite specialization still existing in the game, at least in a Top 3 Builds style way, to such a degree it highlights how terrible the entire "Trade off" philosophy has been devised and implemented since it's inception.

For taking holosmith Engineers lose access to their one elite toolbelt skills. As a result of taking Holosmith engineers loose access to [Toss Elixir X](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_X), [Med Pack Drop](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Med_Pack_Drop), and [Orbital Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orbital_Strike). In the grand scheme of things none of these skills, while potentially strong truly outweigh the tangible value of Photon Forge in literally any capacity, hence why Holo has consistently been one of if not the most consistent top tier builds since PoF released.

Meanwhile Holosmith is considered "balanced" by Arenanet by their definition because of the fact that since it at least loses access to the elite toolbelt skill it is considered "balanced" and holosmith has as a result never once been brought up as part of any classwide review the way Scrapper, Berserker, Mirage, Druid, and others were.

Even with the loss of any of the three elite toolbelt skills let's look at what Holosmith provides the player;

* More damage through both Photon Forge and Traits and several of the Exceed tootbelt skills.

* More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall.

* More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield.

* More mobility through forge abilities like Photon Leap.

* More sustain through things like Heat Therapy.

* More CC through Forge, Utilities, and traits.

* More condition cleanse through traits like Prismatic Converter.

There is a serious question what ISN'T Holosmith better at? There is no reason right now to run a core engineer over a holosmith. Holosmith just gives you more of everything layered ontop of the core traits due to the way it is designed. And while you can make scrapper builds that bunker harder than Holosmith, holo still bunks well enough in relation to it's inherently high damage it has consistently muscled scrapper out of the meta entirely outside of the short window after Gyros were reworked into Wells.

A lot of this comes from it's utilities and traits. Why is Holosmith's trait line providing condition conversion, passive healing, as well as it's utilities providing high access to block and protection and straight damage mitigation on TOP of it's high damage modifiers?

I have never personally minded Holosmith being the YOLO DPS spec but the spec has been a never ending problem due to it's capacity for top tier damage as well as inheriting Core Engineer's inherent sustain and excellent healing skills as well as just having better access to every niche you can imagine than core engineer on top of it.

That's why, similar to how I proposed Mirage suffer a -300 vitality debuff inherent to the spec, **Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.**

Running holosmith should force the player into a high risk high damage spec that needs to play very correctly because it's capacity to resustain and recover after a serious mistake is significantly less than core engineer and especially scrapper. Also overtime the sustain and defense orientated traits and utilities in holosmith should be phased out. This should open up capacity for the other Engineer specs to shine without hitting core traits directly; Core Engineer being the all-rounded, Holosmith being the extremely volatile glass canon, and Scrapper being the super defensive variant.

Running holosmith should force the player into a high risk high damage spec that needs to play very correctly because it's capacity to resustain and recover after a serious mistake is significantly less than core engineer and especially scrapper. Also overtime the sustain and defense orientated traits and utilities in holosmith should be phased out.

As I have said before, if core specializations look like this;


Then Elite Specializations should be doing things like this;


In Holosmith's case in specific, it should be pulling defense and healing to add to damage and mobility, rather than just overlaying everything Holo has to offer on top of core engineer and calling it even because of the elite toolbelt skills.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > Mirage cloak needs to go if mesmers want this class to ever improve.

> >

> > You really think Anet would buff anything on mirage if only Mirage Cloak wasn't around?

>

> I'd hope so, it makes balancing the class a nightmare.

You'd be wrong. Even with Mirage losing an edurance bar thst hasn't seen a restoration of core mesmer.

I do think there's room for giving Chrono's unique shatters but I feel they should reinforce Chronomancer as a spec that super charges it's teammates and debilitates it's enemies by locking them down with stuns and especially heavy slow uptime. It shouldn't just be worse shatters for the sake of adding worse shatters. It should play into the idea of time manipulation more, and in a more flexible and updated way than it does now.

You can do something like

Split Second: Shatter Clones applying quickness in a 600 unit radius around them mesmer and procing damage and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

Rewinder: Shatter Clones Applying Alacrity to allies in a 600 unit radius the mesmer and procing slow and Confusion for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit

Time Sink: Shatter Clones providing stability and healing allies in a 600 unit radius and applying stun and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

Continuum Split: Same as now.

Overall I do feel Chronophantasma is a problem trait akin to Infinite Horizon. As we've seen initially after the phantasm rework and how Anet responded to it, none of the phantasms are allowed to be good in PvP on their own when Chronophantasma exists in it's current form. I'd rather see Chronomancer really augmented into being more of a proper team support the way Firebrand and Tempest are, and if it is winning fights 1v1 it's winning through playing into the themes of Chronomancer, stealing opponents time an accelerating your speed through it. I think an elite spec that augments mesmer's power damage should be reserved for the upcoming third elite spec.

Also after the Signet of Inspiration change mesmer in general has really had zero presence in WvW zerg content. Being able to more easily give allies the Chrono's quickness and Alacrity will help improve it's place in those types of situation.

There's also the serious issue of Chronomancer getting completely sidelined in Fractal content due to how much more easily and reliably the way Firebrand and Renegade provide the Quickness and Alacrity without the need for awkward outdated wells.

I'd rather see a hard 25%-33% reduced healing as a draw back for taking Holosmith.

I've personally never minded the damage on holosmith. Holosmith should have augmented engineer into a high risk, high reward damage spec. The problem arrises from Holosmith's utility, traits, and access to the very high sustain inherent to Engineer means that not only is it a damage dealing monster it's also absurdly difficult to counter pressure and kill in relation to how high damage its damage it.

This also has the double problem of meaning there's no practical reason to run core engineer over holosmith because it's such an extreme case of augmenting everything beyond what a core engineer can do with no draw backs. And while Scrapper is still generally more defensive than Holosmith, holo boasts significantly higher damage while having at least comparable sustain to the point where outside of a few months after the initial Gyro rework were Scrappers were just absurdly power crept defensively, Holosmith also generally just steps on Scrapper's toes and crowds it out of the meta.

A lot of this comes from it's utilities and traits. Why is Holosmith's trait line providing condition conversion, passive healing, as well as it's utilities providing high access to block and protection? It's one of the worst designed elite specs from a perspective of just augmenting literally everything the core class does.

Running holosmith should force the player into a high risk high damage spec that needs to play _very_ correctly because it's capacity to resustain and recover after a serious mistake is significantly less than core engineer and especially scrapper. Also overtime the sustain and defense orientated traits and utilities in holosmith should be phased out.

Explosive Entrance should still 100% see a nerf. The minor trait does more damage than all of the Mirage damage orientated ambushes on a Wizard Amulet with Infinite Horizon and 3 clones. And it blinds. What is effectively blind on dodge is ridiculous. it's just on it's face too high value for what isn't even a grandmaster trait.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Mirage cloak needs to go if mesmers want this class to ever improve.

You really think Anet would buff anything on mirage if only Mirage Cloak wasn't around?

> @"Tyrick.9805" said:

> This is the video, it's from VoodenPotatoes [best Builds For Guild Wars 2 Open World & Story - The Mesmer](

> I really like this build and one of my alts is a Mesmer that I'd like to use for open world like in the video. According to the commenters, there was some change/nerf that made this thing weaker. Could anyone please help me and suggest a new build with Greatsword?

>

> Thank you in advance!

It's barely outdated really. The same build works, if anything the quality of life has improved dramatically since he made that build video. I'd drop Phantasmal Defender for Mantra of Pain for raw damage or a different situation based utility. The only thing that really changed is you'll take Domination 1-2-1 instead of whatever he recommended.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > Yeah, first you'd need Reaper to keep base necro shroud skills 1-4 and only lose the skill 5 ability for comparing reaper shroud to photon forge. What a silly person.

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine thinking photom deals same damage as reaper shround

> > > >

> > > > You say that like Forge has bad damage or something. Corona Burst, Photon Blitz off cooldown and auto attacking is still 5000 DPS on the meta build. I tested it this morning.

> > >

> > > Its not bad, but its not good either. Its a mediocre kit. Its *very* far from Reaper Shroud. Also why are you using Photon Blitz, its a useless skill.

> >

> > Photon Blitz is a DPS boost over autoattacking. Corona Burst is the biggest damage dealer, but Photon Blitz is a mathmatical boost over just auto attacking.

> >

>

> *Hypothetically* it would be, yes. Practically due to how much it increases heat for the little payback, and how jank the skill is, its usually a DPS *loss*.

> As established above, in an actual use case photon blitz is awful and as such is *never* used. So you have to compare Corona Burst to Soul Spiral. More damage in the long period, but a lot less in the short erm.

A quick hop over to Angeel's stream shows him using it pretty regularly, because it's a ranged DPS boost that also allows you to attack targets if they get out of range while in Photon Forge.

I don't know where this "jank" complaint comes from. It isn't any different than any other ranged channel like Confusing Images, Unload, Repeater, Ghastly Clawed, Barrage, Plasma Beam. Don't 360 while you're using, don't do it around easy line of site and it's fine.

>

> > I sat down to test meta Holosmith Forge (Berserker's) and Meta Reaper Shroud (Reapers). Forge is consistently higher DPS when you compare the two without quickness and when you compare the two with quickness.

> >

>

> When you say "when you compare the two without quickness", you are aware youre also ignoring 300 ferocity as well, which is a pretty big damage boost too, right? And beyond that, whats your setup, how much heat? Are you just waiting in the 100-150 heat range just for the sake of trying to push damage as high as possible.

Meta builds ripped straight from Gods of PvP aside from swapping off reaper's onslaught just to see what the numbers are looking like it without it. I did 0 starting heat tests as well as high heat tests on Holosmith, and gave you the 0 starting heat tests, and 100% Life Force on Reaper not that it matters.

> > You can argue "Reaper's Shroud has permanent quickness!" and yeah, that's true. But let's not pretend like meta holosmith [doesn't have access to quickness](https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/engineer/), or even off meta but still viable Holosmith.

> >

>

> Having temporary access to quickness is a *very* far cry from having perma-quickness. Especially if Holo has to burn a stunbreak for the quickness.

>

> > If you want the breakdown reaper auto attacks ARE stronger than Photon Forge, but Corona Burst and Photon Blitz are significantly more spammable than Soul Spiral allowing Forge's overall DPS to overcome Reaper's on the two meta builds when using quickness from Elixir U, and it's only 800 DPS behind Quickness Marauder Shroud without quickness.

> >

>

>

> > The idea that Photon Forge damage is SO MUCH worse than Reaper's Shroud isn't played out by the actual math. Photon Forge will still pick apart a target in seconds even without Quickness.

> >

>

> Except it is. You made 3 errors. You ignored the trait that makes reaper shroud actually broken (while I imagine you at the same time *didnt* ignore enhanced heat capacity storage unit), you assumed a skill so janky its never used is used, and you ignored the entire aspect of heat. You also assume DPS in the long term, despite the fact that you dont actually stay in Photon Forge *or* Reaper shroud for very long. Theyre burst forms. And when it comes to burst? Yeah it aint even close, Reaper shroud blows photon forge *completely* out of the park. Even if you assume the Holo uses quickness.

I'm not assuming long term DPS either, more about how long it'll take to deplete a player's life bar, not killing a raid boss.

> > You want to see bad? God of PvP's condition mirage build is hitting 1,600 DPS . Your 3,600-5,600 DPS meta build doesn't look so bad now, does it? And that doesn't even include Grenade Barrage!

>

> Lemme guess. You tested it on golems and as such had confusion not do any damage and torment do half damage. Gee I wonder why your results ended up the way they are.

While all my tests involve me using a mix of golems and players, condition mirage exclusively uses player volunteers for that reason to spam skills while under the effects of confusion. Cry of Frustration puts out 3 seconds of confusion, so you can only get about 3 skills max outside of the victim using multiple instant cast skills on top of it.

Photon Forge is still excellent damage. You just aren't getting ridiculous 4-6k crits from the auto attacks like you used too and it also probably looks wimpy compared to some of the Grenade Barrage crits people are getting. This talk about Reaper Shroud in general feels like people trying to deflect from Nade Holo being one of if not the best builds in the game right now.

> @"wevh.2903" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > Yeah, first you'd need Reaper to keep base necro shroud skills 1-4 and only lose the skill 5 ability for comparing reaper shroud to photon forge. What a silly person.

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine thinking photom deals same damage as reaper shround

> > > >

> > > > You say that like Forge has bad damage or something. Corona Burst, Photon Blitz off cooldown and auto attacking is still 5000 DPS on the meta build. I tested it this morning.

> > >

> > > Its not bad, but its not good either. Its a mediocre kit. Its *very* far from Reaper Shroud. Also why are you using Photon Blitz, its a useless skill.

> >

> > Photon Blitz is a DPS boost over autoattacking. Corona Burst is the biggest damage dealer, but Photon Blitz is a mathmatical boost over just auto attacking.

> >

> > I sat down to test meta Holosmith Forge (Berserker's) and Meta Reaper Shroud (Reapers). Forge is consistently higher DPS when you compare the two without quickness and when you compare the two with quickness.

> >

> > You can argue "Reaper's Shroud has permanent quickness!" and yeah, that's true. But let's not pretend like meta holosmith [doesn't have access to quickness](https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/engineer/), or even off meta but still viable Holosmith.

> >

> > If you want the breakdown reaper auto attacks ARE stronger than Photon Forge, but Corona Burst and Photon Blitz are significantly more spammable than Soul Spiral allowing Forge's overall DPS to overcome Reaper's on the two meta builds when using quickness from Elixir U, and it's only 800 DPS behind Quickness Marauder Shroud without quickness.

> >

> > The idea that Photon Forge damage is SO MUCH worse than Reaper's Shroud isn't played out by the actual math. Photon Forge will still pick apart a target in seconds even without Quickness.

> >

> > You want to see bad? God of PvP's condition mirage build is hitting 1,600 DPS . Your 3,600-5,600 DPS meta build doesn't look so bad now, does it? And that doesn't even include Grenade Barrage

>

> Nice to know pvp is about hittig a golem xďddd , reaper shround one shot ppl , do big dps in long time doenst mean nothing , this is not kitten pve , scourge does far more dmg than reaper but the thing is kitten has big dmg in small time , and holo access to kickness in photom forge is so kitten small , elixir is ur only breakstun u can use it freely to do dmg while holo mains doenst use sword 3 with photon forge , sword 3 is used with morter or granade kit after leaving photon forge with dmg boost but u dont even knos cuz ur just bringing stupid pve logic to a complex scenarios

It's still a numbers game. The damage numbers the meta builds are putting out is relevant, just like their healing per second is relevant, just like their block+invuln+evade uptime is relevant. You really think how much more damage Holosmith is putting out compared to Warrior is has absolutely zero bearing on balance?

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> What about reducing the clones to 1 instead 3 and return the second dodge?

> Reducing the dodges really damage the survivability of any class. Instead the burst potential can be reduced by reducing the number of clones.

> To make up for it increase the clone HP and does increased damage so it last longer and share the mirage cloak effect with the clone.

Reducing Mirage's clone count would make it literally unplayable.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > Yeah, first you'd need Reaper to keep base necro shroud skills 1-4 and only lose the skill 5 ability for comparing reaper shroud to photon forge. What a silly person.

> > >

> > > Imagine thinking photom deals same damage as reaper shround

> >

> > You say that like Forge has bad damage or something. Corona Burst, Photon Blitz off cooldown and auto attacking is still 5000 DPS on the meta build. I tested it this morning.

>

> Its not bad, but its not good either. Its a mediocre kit. Its *very* far from Reaper Shroud. Also why are you using Photon Blitz, its a useless skill.

Photon Blitz is a DPS boost over autoattacking. Corona Burst is the biggest damage dealer, but Photon Blitz is a mathmatical boost over just auto attacking.

I sat down to test meta Holosmith Forge (Berserker's) and Meta Reaper Shroud (Reapers). Forge is consistently higher DPS when you compare the two without quickness and when you compare the two with quickness.

You can argue "Reaper's Shroud has permanent quickness!" and yeah, that's true. But let's not pretend like meta holosmith [doesn't have access to quickness](https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/engineer/), or even off meta but still viable Holosmith.

If you want the breakdown reaper auto attacks ARE stronger than Photon Forge, but Corona Burst and Photon Blitz are significantly more spammable than Soul Spiral allowing Forge's overall DPS to overcome Reaper's on the two meta builds when using quickness from Elixir U, and it's only 800 DPS behind Quickness Marauder Shroud without quickness.

The idea that Photon Forge damage is SO MUCH worse than Reaper's Shroud isn't played out by the actual math. Photon Forge will still pick apart a target in seconds even without Quickness.

You want to see bad? God of PvP's condition mirage build is hitting 1,600 DPS . Your 3,600-5,600 DPS meta build doesn't look so bad now, does it? And that doesn't even include Grenade Barrage!

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Mirrors are trash.

Not when you look as good as me~

If you're going to make this work it requires a lot of additional systems.

Let's say you have a time out box if there's a DC, that picks someone at random after 20s of registering a DC on the other team with an option for one of the players to volunteer.

You'd need to create systems that won't DC the boxed player if they go afk in the box for 60s because what else are they going to do when they can't play?

Then you need to create a system that releases them when the DC'd player comes back.

And you need to set up a system where the boxed player doesn't lose rating if his team goes on to lose the 4v4 because he had no input on that victory.

I don't oppose the idea in theory. One player having an unfun time is better overall than 4-9(depending on how much the overnumbered team gets off on steamrolling an undernumbered team) having a bad time on a purely utilitarian basis.

And I do think there should be a better system for handling 4v5s. But right now Arenanet can't even balance Holosmith and Herald to stop them from steamrolling the entire PvP game mode so I think any additional work load is too much for them

> @"wevh.2903" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > Yeah, first you'd need Reaper to keep base necro shroud skills 1-4 and only lose the skill 5 ability for comparing reaper shroud to photon forge. What a silly person.

>

> Imagine thinking photom deals same damage as reaper shround

You say that like Forge has bad damage or something. Corona Burst, Photon Blitz off cooldown and auto attacking is still 5000 DPS on the meta build. I tested it this morning.

Berserker's Amulet Sword Auto Attack: 2247 DPS

Berserker's Amulet Auto Attack with Blurred Frenzy off cooldown: 1777 DPS

Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage

Axe: 900

Scepter with three clones: 850

Staff with three clones: 1,500

Even against a stationary target Blurred Frenzy is a full on DPS loss in PvP.

For reference other classes look like this;

Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet

Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400 DPS

Greatsword Maul off cooldown: 3,050 DPS

Axe Autoattack: 2,000 DPS

Berserker Holo Grenade "Auto Attack": 2,500 DPS

Berserker Holo Grenade Barrage into Grenade "Auto Attack": 4,800 DPS.

Photon Forge Auto: 2,377 DPS

Photon Forge Corona Burst into Photon Blast off cooldown into autoattack: 5,413 DPS

Power Herald Auto: 2,506 DPS

Power Herald Auto with impossible odds: 3,850 DPS

I really do think the main problem with PvP Mesmer is mesmer's damage really. The weapon skills are extremely behind what other classes are capable of in a big big way. It's meant to be supplemented by shatters, but the condition shatters are absurdly limp even when traited to the absolute maximum and with full stat investment, and the power shatter while having good damage still leaves you too one trick because the rest of your kit still isn't competitive for rounding out the damage needed if your damage whiffs even slightly.

Holosmith: It only does Everything.

Whatever trade off happens it needs to be designed in a way that actually accentuates aspects of core mesmer into more potent forms with clear niches with trade offs that open up weaknesses that don't run completely counter to what the elite spec is strong at.

Necromancer is one of the best designed in the game in terms of giving the elites reasons to be run while core has a clear niche as well.

Core: Extremely tanky shroud, long range.

Weakness mediocre damage.

Reaper: Extremely high cleave damage. Weakness: faster degeneration melee only.

Scourge: High AOE condition and corruption, can cast profession skills without entering a shroud. Weakness: Significantly lower durability than core necro, shade attacks have no auto attack style consistent pressure, shade skills have a clearer pattern of attack than core shroud that's easier to avoid.

Whatever happens to mesmer, mirage, and chrono needs to focus on making each very strong in ways the others aren't and with clear niches with weaknesses that open up counter play without running completely counter to what the spec is supposed to be strong at.

Not asking for god mode or for mesmer to reign supreme over all other classes. Hence why I think it's so important for elite specs to have very specific visions, scopes, and niches. We want to avoid "It only does Everything" style elite specs like Holosmith going forward, which might actually be the worst designed elite in the game right now in terms of being straight up Core+ in every regard even though it has a "trade off".

Axe is even worse with absolutely zero down body pressure compared to other condition melee builds like Rev Mace, Weaver Sword, Rev Axe.

Mirage axe does about 800 dps with it's auto attack chain with the above builds doing nearly 2x the DPS.

I actually forgot to test the damage per second on the sword auto attack chain's dps was post mega balance. Premega balance it was like 2000 dps on a berserker amulet, heavily weighted on the last hit on a target with zero boons. It's probably significantly less now, I'll test when I have time.

Mesmer in general has the weakest weapon skills in the game, intended to be supplemented with shatter damage to balance out. Power shatters still do solid damage on a reasonable cooldown, but condition shatters are limp af with a 25 second cooldown to boot.

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

>

> Both, I'm sure. But It's OK for a Thief to have 3 offensive dodges.

And a healing skill with a built in evade that makes is functionally uninterruptible outside of the extremely rare and limited wards only available on two classes, spammable attacks on almost every weapon kit that provide evade, and elite skill that does damage while evading, multiple utility skills that provide evade on top of very powerful effects, none of which need to be traited to gain the functionality.